A very good and insightful post.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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People are free to talk shit but for some reason find it offensive when people call it out. Free speech goes both ways.
For the record, I think Ole's doing a fantastic job and anyone complaining after yesterday is doing nothing but embarrassing themselves.
For the record, I think Ole's doing a fantastic job and anyone complaining after yesterday is doing nothing but embarrassing themselves.
Whatever you think about the tactician OGS, he really has done a great job rebuilding this club. And for that he deserves a lot of praise, even from the most fierce Ole outers.
This was our PL squad only two years ago vs Newcastle. It's a world of difference:
Starting:
David De Gea
Diogo Dalot
Axel Tuanzebe
Harry Maguire
Ashley Young
Fred
Scott McTominay
Andreas Pereira
Juan Mata
Daniel James
Marcus Rashford
Bench:
Sergio Romero
Marcos Rojo
Brandon Williams
Angel Gomes
Nemanja Matic
Mason Greenwood
Tahith Chong
This was our PL squad only two years ago vs Newcastle. It's a world of difference:
Starting:
David De Gea
Diogo Dalot
Axel Tuanzebe
Harry Maguire
Ashley Young
Fred
Scott McTominay
Andreas Pereira
Juan Mata
Daniel James
Marcus Rashford
Bench:
Sergio Romero
Marcos Rojo
Brandon Williams
Angel Gomes
Nemanja Matic
Mason Greenwood
Tahith Chong
Yeah pretty much. I said something recently on Twitter about some stats guy (supposedly a Utd fan) who constantly denigrates Utd under Ole for having no plan and our results being unsustainable, that the way he talks about us, you'd be forgiven for thinking that we're Burnley, and not the team who was behind only Man City in points accrued since January 2020, and I think since Ole first joined in his caretaker stint we've been comfortably third on that metric as well, behind only the all conquering Liverpool and City sides.
That alone should tell you that what we're doing under Ole is pretty fecking sustainable, no?
Another corker was this absolute toilet water of a tweet:
Like seriously, what does that even mean?
I agree. I think some people pursue rhetoric to a point where they make themselves look like they know less than a 7 year old about football. Its just meaningless and thoughtless buzzwords that people hope they can repeat until its accepted as truth.
If it was all about sticking to a managers gameplan and working as a coached unit why do Burnley not win the premier league every season?
Would a ‘pattern of play’ not just constitute playing the same passing move 8 times a game and become massively easy to predict, play and defend against?
The idea that its completely about coaching and Klopp/Pep would ‘coach’ the current ipswich 11 to the champions league with one or two signings. Ole is cheating and relying on signing good players. Pep totally didnt spend nearly a billion pounds in 5 years. Klopp spent over £500m in 6. You’d think Pep had developed Zabaleta and Kolarov and was still playing them every week the way some go on.
Embarassing for some.
Really good post. I wish more people would think about a post before pressing the button. Twitter exists for over the top ranting. It doesnt need to be here
I feel reviewing the newbie system would help. It got loosened up a while ago and I feel there's been somewhat of a deterioration in posting quality since. Having said that, I do think the majority of people hold balanced opinions, but they get shouted down by the people on the extreme ends of the argument. What's more, they label everyone who's not steadfastly in their corner to be against them. I've discussed in the past the virtues of Pochettino vs Ole and was immediately branded a Poch lover and Ole hater, which is not true at all. Likewise, you can defend Ole and get called stupid or blind.
My real worry is that we don't win the league by a narrow margin and the Ole out extremists start saying he's a failure, which would be incredibly unfair. We have to accept that the level of competition in the modern PL is extraordinarily high, and we're fighting against two oil-funded clubs who are remarkably well-run. Lets be real, when Ole was hired on an interim basis we never expected him to get even close to building a team that could challenge for the league. He's already exceeded expectations, and deserves credit for that whether he wins the league or not.
Think all that is missing from the squad is that midfielder. If we can get that then we should be sorted and with the attacking options be a serious force to be reckoned with.
For my part, I've just gotten to the point where I can't be bothered engaging with most of it. Like the criticism forwarded in here, about Newcastle creating better chances and us misplacing too many passes, where both are demonstrably false. Or the oft repeated claim that Ole gave Jones and Young new contracts (while caretaker), that all players sold during his tenure improved elsewhere (I'm fairly certain only Lukaku did, and even that's debatable), the people who think we dominated every game under Ferguson (or, at least pretend they do in order to criticise Ole), the repeated claims that we have no style, etc. Fair do's to those that still have the energy to try and debunk the same shite over and over again, but theses days I mostly can't be bothered.
A bit ironic, this.
This is a really key point that so many overlook. There is undoubtedly merit in the way that Pep (for example) has a way that he wants to play and its incredibly difficult to implement that structure, but the flipside to that is that by now everybody knows how to beat City. There is a specific gameplan which works against every football team, but with a team as good as City are very few possess the right tools to get there. Its why they have struggled to win the CL. At the very top level those opponents all have the tools and the know-how and it levels the playing field.
Point being, there are certain advantages to being flexible. United were having a lot of joy in countering opponents, and last season our opponents stopped giving us the space. The result was a bunch of 0-0's against the top 4. We have to do something different, and we've added some tools to our squad this summer. Varane adds pace to the defence, Ronaldo is, well, Ronaldo and Sancho will prove to be a little more delicate around the box than our other wide forwards. What I like most about our squad building is the options it gives us. I dont want United to have a set style of play
Yup. That exact one. They're a joyless lot over on that particular corner of football twitter...
Perhaps a right back as well, not sure if Dalot is good enough (we'll see this season though) and AWB can't play all the time. I'd love it if we bought Trippier this summer, think he'd be significant upgrade on AWB when we're attacking.
Fergie used to set the team up a lot like Ole does. I remember people bitching about how his tactics were too simplistic, especially in Europe. He even brought in Queiroz to help with that one, if you all remember. I also remember people complaining about him playing 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 for what it's worth. The man was an absolute master of man management and recruitment and new how to build a great side.
Is Ole the next Fergie? Well, he's got a few trophies to win before people start making that comparison. Have United won stuff in the past playing the way he's trying to? I'd say they have.
Is Ole the next Fergie? Well, he's got a few trophies to win before people start making that comparison. Have United won stuff in the past playing the way he's trying to? I'd say they have.
I couldn't agree more. Its absolutely guaranteed that many of those posters demanding a 'proper title challenge' as a minimum requirement will be the first to call Ole and the team bottlers if we do finish 2 or 3 points away. Rather than be disappointed but understanding and reasonable, for those people it will only enhance the notion that Ole isn't a 'closer' and round and round this conversation will go
People just become over critical of our game and just praise other teams without watching them on a regular basis. Like if anyone had watched the Chelsea game yesterday would tell you Villa literally bossed them in the first half and should have been leading them. Mings gifted them a goal and Villa lost 3-0. But people without watching much will say "look how good tuchel is". Why isn't his wins termed "lucky" or called "individual brilliance".
Always felt people troll Ole to look cool. A narrative has always been made that he cannot coach and is just as a PE teacher. I myself have doubts with Ole and have criticized his tactics but I don't think we will be where we are with someone who doesn't know how to coach. It is just impossible. I hope we win a trophy or two as his work definitely deserves one.
Always felt people troll Ole to look cool. A narrative has always been made that he cannot coach and is just as a PE teacher. I myself have doubts with Ole and have criticized his tactics but I don't think we will be where we are with someone who doesn't know how to coach. It is just impossible. I hope we win a trophy or two as his work definitely deserves one.
Very good post.
However the first and second tactical limitation you've mentioned imo might very well is because we don't have a good midfield. We can only be sure why once we buy at least a good CDM I think.
Exactly mate. All that gets conveniently ignored.
Ole might not be that guy to win us the title but you know what, as a matchgoing fan who goes home and away, I can tell you this: I've not enjoyed being one as much as I have done under Ole (I never got the chance to experience SAF's Utd teams in the flesh). He brought back what it meant to be a proper Utd side and the way he's methodically rebuilt this side has been beautiful to see. He doesn't ignore the youth like Jose did. He doesn't marginalise his players like LvG and unlike Moyes, he inspires chemistry and a bond between and among his players. He's taken us so far, and even if he doesn't ultimately prove to be the man to win us the big titles, his role in our ascent guarantees that his appointment has been a successful one. I'm obviously hoping he is that guy though, cos the trophies would just be that bit sweeter after all the shit he's taken from the press and basement-dwelling virgins online.
100% I've been waiting for someone to say this but I've yet to see it anywhere.
Well said.
Begin the cloning of Roy Keane immediately!
When you look at the managers and squads of us, City, Chelsea and Liverpool, its crazy to think that 3 of those teams will miss out on the title tbf. The standard of the PL is out of this world
Yeah. I enjoy watching us again. I think the squad management has left us with something sustainable and a lot of long term quality players. There havent been any darmian rojo fellaini signings. Feels like there is hope for the future again. There are players like sancho and greenwood who i am looking forward to seeing develop their career in a red shirt. Regardless of who is in charge.
Theres much more to a club than a manager. Also think Some of our fans need to accept we dominated the PL in a 2 horse era. Arsenal dropped away as Chelsea emerged. Its not that easy anymore. We wont win 7 league titles a decade
I think some of them are good and offer decent insights however I wonder whether they actually watched and enjoyed football first before they got into statistics. It's always been more about the quality of the players, not a game of chess played by the managers which they want to break it down to.
I am so happy for Ole that I could cry. A great man, he walked into a complete mess, having to resurrect a fallen giant, and by god he has done it. Keep the faith in Ole!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah some do, maybe even Kees himself does at times as well, but it's the holier than thou sanctimony that really gets under my skin.
I doubt he's ever played the game seriously in his life but because he has access to the basic package on Wyscout or something he thinks he's the equal to a UEFA Pro licenced coach who has spent years in the game around the very best in the sector. Or that his sole analysis and analytics are somehow the equivalent of a club's whole department, despite them being a) 10-50 strong in terms of manpower and b) have a genuine track record of professional excellence.
And that's before we consider that the data available to the club will be on several orders of magnitude more in quality and quantity than what Kees and his ilk have available to them...
Wish we could. There must be a mad professor somewhere who is an United fan.
All clubs have access to all of that and regularly make bad signings and go through terrible periods.
What people ignore is our clubs structure. Here the manager is expected to do everything like in the good old days. The other clubs just hire coaches and give them players. In that sense Ole has embraced everything about his role and is doing well He might have to hire reinforcements for our coachsing staff though, someone from the current Ajax regime would do nicely.
You won't because that will change people's narrative then.
Exactly. I know Ole saying "go out there and have fun" is a bit of a cliche, and some people might take it a bit to far, but there is some truth to it and there is also some merit to that way of playing.
A more structured way of playing or "patterns of play" as everyone is yearning for has its benefits, but so does playing with more freedom, and both of them also has their own drawbacks.
During the LvG years we were very structured, but that did not produce good results or even good football apart from a few notable games. Also, coaches who are very system heavy in their approach often have much stricter requirments on what players they can utillize effectively. Pep for example needs players who are techincally proficient and good with the ball in tight areas. If he tried to do that with Burnely, they would fail spectacularly as you cant play tiki-taka with a bunch of brawny thugs
Being more flexible makes you more unpredicable, and truly creative players really thrive in such systems. The drawback is that you become very dependant on those players, and if they have a bad drop in form or become injured, they are almost impossible to replace and you will struggle badly with creativity
Yes, and if the geniuses that are the stats gurus on Twitter were any better than them they'd be employed by these football clubs and not be *checks notes* stats gurus on Twitter.
Comprende?
I can understand people without agreeing with them - in some respects. If people say - "I am not convinced Ole will take us to the title". or "I don't think Ole is good enough to dethrone Pep, Klopp or Tuchel." or maybe even "I think we should play more fluent football with the players we have" - fine, I dont have a problem with that. I may not agree with it - but those are criticisms I can understand people have.
The problem is much of the criticism aimed towards Ole has been over the top at best. That he is too nice (a Glazer-stooge), that he is incompetent, that he couldn't attract big players. That we rely on individual talent (a lot of the talent he acquired btw) etc etc
And in a game where we win 4-1 (without Rashford, Cavani, McTominay and with Fred on the bench most likely due to the Covid-situation) as well as Sancho being nowhere near his best - it seems strange to make a big deal out of the fact that our football wasn't breathtaking. I watched Chelsea got torn to shreds in the first half against Villa - and were unfortunate not to be a couple of goals ahead at half-time. Some of these people who criticize Ole after the Newcastle-game, would applaud Tuchel for being tactical, and a winner.
But does it really matter if you win due to a well-oiled team, compared to a team that is so stocked with individual quality that they win big even on an off-day ?
I think of it as like this - with Sancho being really poor, with Rashford out, with no central midfield - we still destroyed Newcastle, despite not playing well. Imagine how much potential there is in that team when we are at our strongest. Complain when things dont go well, dont do it when we win by 4-1
Nope, dont buy it, clubs are far from well run and using the way the operate as any example for anything is not the way to go. Id mtrust my own eyes long before i trust those scouting networks.
Im not saying some stats guru on twitter would do better, what im saying is you cant invalidate someones opinion on the basis of how clubs are run given how so many clubs underperform on a regular basis.
Best manager in the Prem
IF Ole ever wins the league ahead of those 3 managers, it will be like individual brilliance won it, not Ole!
And, I would thank Ole for signing individual brilliance.
And, I would thank Ole for signing individual brilliance.
Building a squad takes time. We've seen improvements over Ole's tenure. Trophies will come no doubt. Just a matter of when not if.
Those who doubt his managerial acumen should compare him with the likes of Lampard, Arteta, Pirlo and the likes.
Those who doubt his managerial acumen should compare him with the likes of Lampard, Arteta, Pirlo and the likes.
What do people who go on about patterns of play really want? Do they really just want predictability and an assurance that they may know what is going to happen next.
I find teams that play patterns designed to the process or the system incredibly boring and predictable and it being mostly predictable is what makes it boring to me. It's more boring than watching a team just lump it long, that's still a system and a process and there is a pattern to it. I genuinely found peak Spain and Barcelona incredibly boring to watch.
I don't understand why so many people seem to want this so badly. You end up watching a team try the same thing over and over and over until it pays off. Then you get a goal and go back to trying the same patterns over and over and over again.
Sure, I get what youre saying, but its a bizarre point when youre using yesterdays game to illustrate it, given we scored 4, and could / should have had a penalty for Sanchos shot being blocked by a hand, Varane had a free header he put wide.
You said we were all over the place in the first half, which is not accurate at all. Sometimes these games need patience when you dont score in the first ten minutes to open up the game. And our patience was rewarded.
Haven't teams with a set style of play not far more often won the CL than not over the past 10 years? If you think of Barcelona, Liverpool, Chelsea, Real, Bayern.
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