Great way to get rid of that nickname. At this point, I am sure it has been used way way more by his fans than by his doubter
That's an absolute given.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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That's an absolute given.
Culture improvement isn't some magical inevitable thing. Manchester United had been on a downward trajectory for years post-Fergie. The squad was laden with players here for the money, players who were a bad influence, and players who never should have made it into the team in the first place. Bad habits had become ingrained. Players had been blamed in public. People don't get over years of resentment and workplace dread with a snap of the fingers. The performance improvement one gets from a workforce when they enjoy coming to work has been well documented and it's something money alone can't buy.
All correct and Ole is rightfully appreciated for providing his influence to improve that. Nonetheless - I am sure you agree, that "keeping the atmosphere in check" is something, that every top manager is expected of or this is expected of the club who then decides who is going to be responsible for what decision. As far as I am aware of, and thats me genuinely thinking about it, except Mourinho, no top manager comes to mind who doesn't care about the general atmosphere. Sarri had a few things here and there, Conte I think, Nico Kovac as well. But always pretty limited and mostly harmless little rows.
My point is, atmosphere wise, we are looking way better than in a long time. But I think that is at least as much due to getting rid of Mourinhos negative influence, than it is due to bringing in Oles positive influence. I think, winning games and playing a more attacking and non-restrictive way also helps tremendously on this part. Sanchez would have been sold regardless of who the manager was, Fellaini was well (even though I am sure, he never was a problem atmosphere-wise).
(Additional controversial thought: I could imagine Lukaku being very very effective running at balls released by Bruno and Pogba in our current attack. Obviously Martial replaced him very well last year but as far as that seemed to be a purple patch, holding onto Lukaku might have been benefitial at this point?)
We agree that every manager should be able to manage club atmosphere. However, culture and atmosphere isn't a box to tick. The ceiling goes beyond "keeping in check" and different managers are better or worse at creating an environment where staff and players flourish and are motivated to dig deeper and give more.
Ole isn't the best manager in the world by any stretch. But context matters and from what I can see Ole is one of the best choices for Manchester United specifically. There are others who conceivably could do better than him in this job, and fair play to those who think Poch or Tuchel would do better, but the obsession I see with so many of belittling his accomplishments and focusing on his failings when he has delivered year-on-year progress and done better in the Premier League over the course of two years than any of his pedigreed predecessors...I find it abhorrent and an example of some of the worse aspects of human nature.
He played in a midfield 3 for sporting and still racked up the numbers.
No most people get over it very quickly especially when one individual is the cause of the majority of the problems. Jose was toxic but legacy of that is massively exaggerated, everyone would have moved on very quickly.
Ole seems to be very good at keeping players happy but that’s not enough and so far him and the players have fallen apart in the big moments.
One does not "get over" a lack of confidence and trust and years of thinking of work and colleagues a certain way. This isn't a bad day at work. Habits have formed. Mental health isn't a brand new health field anymore.
Players fail to get over the finish line all the time in cup competitions. Sir Alex regularly got knocked out of cup competitions at earlier stages. People talk about losing so many semi-finals as if getting to that many semi-finals isn't an accomplishment. What, are we going to be trashing Ole as inept again if he loses a Champions League semi-final next season?
Ole still has to prove that he can take Manchester United back to trophy-winning ways, but the notion that he's not good enough because he's lost most of the semi-finals and the final doesn't in itself hold much water for me, especially when we've finished third and second in back to back full seasons in charge in the Premier League.
Not really. It's the least you'd expect from someone managing Manchester United to be in the top 25% of nominees.
I'd go with
1 Bielsa
2 Rodgers
3 Pep
4 Ole
5 Moyes
1 Bielsa
2 Rodgers
3 Pep
4 Ole
5 Moyes
The "nominated for PL manager of the year" trophy.
A good transfer window and we should be expecting at least a title challenge in the league. The negativity in this place is coming from the opinion that Ole does not have the ability to challenge. His past experience pre United does not convince anyone he can compete and challenge for the title. His experience with us with all the cup losses also doesn't convince anyone. And then there's Pep Tuchel and Klopp all better than Ole and managing a team as strong as or already stronger than us at the moment
However, we've been progressing in the league since Ole came here and that is fact. Some people that dont want him here are not bothered to factor this in as a good reason to think Ole has the ability to challenge or win the title. Or is it unreasonable to think the man that took us from 6th to 3rd to 2nd can go up another level?
I think the progress he's made should give him the benefit of the doubt that he can do it and unless he stops making that progress, I have hope that he can take us to where we want to be
However, we've been progressing in the league since Ole came here and that is fact. Some people that dont want him here are not bothered to factor this in as a good reason to think Ole has the ability to challenge or win the title. Or is it unreasonable to think the man that took us from 6th to 3rd to 2nd can go up another level?
I think the progress he's made should give him the benefit of the doubt that he can do it and unless he stops making that progress, I have hope that he can take us to where we want to be
Problem is the opportunity cost of sticking with him. Sure we could eventually win the league with huge backing, but is it worth the 1 league in however many seasons, if another better manager could have done more?
The best example of this is Kovac => Flick. Kovack didn't do too badly by Utd's current standards. Won the league and cup double in fact. But still he was replaced midseason by a better manager, one who went on to win a sextuple. Had Bayern been satisfied with their lot, they would have lost out on that. If it was us in their place with our current mentality, we most certainly would have lost out on that.
Point being, we could very well be satisfied with Ole spending a ton of money and then winning the odd league every few years, but we would really be missing out. And as of now he has yet to even win anything, so even that hypothetical places a lot of faith in abilities Ole has yet to actually demonstrate.
Oh to be clear I'm only talking about keeping faith in Ole for just next season. Back him this window and if he doesn't have us challenging or winning the league then he needs to go
I don’t get this ‘improvement’. In terms of league position sure but Liverpool and Chelsea’s start is surely a caveat to that. Moreover except for the occasional match, we’re awful to watch.
The league table doesn’t lie they say but anyone who says they truly believe we are the second best team in that league is delusional
The league table doesn’t lie they say but anyone who says they truly believe we are the second best team in that league is delusional
We were clearly the second best team this year. Easily.
What about our shit start without a preseason and ridiculous schedule to finish the season? That’s minimum 15 points we wouldn’t have dropped given a normal schedule.
Quite a claim. Especially considering our woeful home record carried on all season.
There's nothing to suggest we suddenly get maximum points against Palace, Spurs, Sheff Utd, Everton, Arsenal etc all at home with more of a pre-season.
Make your mind up.
Klopp, Ancelotti, Mourinho and elite manager Arteta send their regards.
You do realize Moyes is about to win the award right? The guy we fired and everybody accepts is not good enough for us. Ole performed in the top 5 for managers this year according to some journos( I don't know who votes for this) and deserves credit for that. I hope he wins but lets not gas it up, does anybody even know or care how many manager of the years Fergie won?
I bet Bielsa wins that, although Moyes deserves it more.
I’d like nothing more than to pile on, but you should re-read that sentence.
Yup, and it will be very deserved.
I just responded to the poster who suggests that being nominated for Manager Of The Year should be taken for granted. Whoever is nominated has either won the league or over-performed relative to expectations.
Not one of the managers that you listed deserved to be nominated this season. Klopp oversaw one of, if not the worst title defence we've seen for sometime. Mourinho and Arteta? Ancelotti might have had a shout earlier in the season but his team dipped massively.
Oles not winning this. Sounds all too familiar.
Genuine question - were we the only team which did not get a preseason? I thought that this was the case for all PL sides, no?
I agree.
But all of the mentioned managers have fairly recently been considered good or even great. And if they fail, it's clear that getting nominated isn't just a walk in the park.
Everyone got a much shorter than normal pre-season, as the final game of the Premier League was July 26th. But we and City were the only teams that were still playing (in Europe) until 15th (city) and 16th (us) of August, and the first game of the next season started September 12th. Meaning we had less than a month to prepare, plus the players had to have a holiday first. We did get to start a week delayed of the Prem, but that still meant 2 less weeks of prep than other teams in total. Which turns into quite a bit when everyone else had 6 weeks for prep (+ vacation), and we had to fit another game into the schedule later in the season.
Our pre-season was essentially around 1-2 weeks while most others had maybe 3-4 weeks.
So you think Ole deserved to be nominated?
Ole doubters in August 2020: 'We'll be lucky to make top 4 under Ole this season'
Ole doubters in May 2021 after finishing 2nd place: 'It's not good enough. Sack him'
Absolutely no issue with people having doubts over him. I even have a few minor doubts over him still and next season will be huge for him. Finishing 3rd or 4th next season won't be enough for him to keep his job I don't think. He will need a trophy too.
Ole doubters in May 2021 after finishing 2nd place: 'It's not good enough. Sack him'
Absolutely no issue with people having doubts over him. I even have a few minor doubts over him still and next season will be huge for him. Finishing 3rd or 4th next season won't be enough for him to keep his job I don't think. He will need a trophy too.
He's saying the league table doesn't lie but anyone who thinks we are the second best team in England is delusional? Is that not a contradiction?
Not at all. I think it's more a case of them needing 5 names. It's a bit of a shit list to be fair.
If we would have gained 15 points in a normal season, that would put us close to 90 points.
Looking at Manchester United last season, I don't see a 90-point team. Nowhere near.
United was clearly the second best side in the league last season. It was progress, Having said that, I don't think we've made much progress on the pitch. We did so in the table, mostly because a team that was way above us - Liverpool - dropped massively.
Looking at Manchester United last season, I don't see a 90-point team. Nowhere near.
United was clearly the second best side in the league last season. It was progress, Having said that, I don't think we've made much progress on the pitch. We did so in the table, mostly because a team that was way above us - Liverpool - dropped massively.
It contains the manager who won the league, the manager who won the FA Cup, second place in the league, Moyes who took West Ham from the relegation zone to the European places and Bielsa who took a promoted team into the top ten but it's a bit shit. Is that because Ole is in it?
Stw2022's sentence structure is a bit off maybe, but what he says is that OTHERS usually say that the table doesn't lie. Stw doesn't say that he thinks that is true.
His opinion is that the league table doesn't matter, because in total over a full season he doesn't think we were the second best team in the league. Even if we in total over a full season got the 2nd most points on the table.
The stats (everyone's favourite xG) suggest we overperformed in terms of actual points versus our performances. We're 4th in xG goals scored and 4th in xG goals conceded. To my eye, that feels kind of right, especially away from home.
We have some very good players, who can make things happen.
We do not play the 2nd best football in the division. Our 'style' is not the 2nd best at controlling football matches.
For me, one of two things changes next season:
We get structurally better - whether through excellent signings or improved coaching / ideas getting through
We get overtaken by Pool and Chelsea - both of whom play better football than us, generally
We have some very good players, who can make things happen.
We do not play the 2nd best football in the division. Our 'style' is not the 2nd best at controlling football matches.
For me, one of two things changes next season:
We get structurally better - whether through excellent signings or improved coaching / ideas getting through
We get overtaken by Pool and Chelsea - both of whom play better football than us, generally
Don't understand that logic. How on earth do you measure who is the second if not on points? Who plays the prettiest football? The aim of the game is to win matches and pick up points. We are second in the league, second in terms of goals scored and have a long unbeaten away record. We are the second best team in the league.
On premier league website, it says we are 2nd in goals scored?
xG.
This is the Premier League manager of the season. So Rodgers isn't in there on the back of his FA Cup win.
It contains the manager who won the league, the manager who won the FA Cup, second place in the league, Moyes who took West Ham from the relegation zone to the European places and Bielsa who took a promoted team into the top ten but it's a bit shit. Is that because Ole is in it?
Pep is a given as he won the league.
Rodgers - his team bottled the top 4, again.
Moyes - brilliant job
Biesla - good job again
Ole - 2nd is decent, but let's not pretend we were in a fierce fight with Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs etc who have all had/were having stinking seasons in the league.
Since 2014/2015 season, 74 points would have only got us 2nd on one occasion, and that was the year Leicester won the league. We didn't stonk our way to 2nd, the rest were mainly shit and we limped over the line.
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