Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Bobcat]

So what exactly is going on now? I said that because I assume... you referring to the drunken culture as having some relevances to what Ole took over?

Its just an example.

The point is that a manager works both short term (coaching, game tactics) and long term (squad building, culture, espirit de corps etc). Fergie was a master a the latter, but no amount of coaching was going to turn that bunch into league winners.

 

[Womp]

Not that im a mind reader, but i dont think thats the point hes making. The manager is of course the most important person at the club, but any manager sort of lives and dies based on the players available to him.

Fergie won nothing his first years because Man Utd back then was mostly belligirent drunkards with more attitude than talent. He became a legend because he was second to none in crafting and assembling competetive squads with players of the right attitude and talent

Coaching/motivation of course matters to make a team greater than the sum of their parts, but i feel like its effect is often overstated on here, especially when it comes to inividual player ability

I both agree and disagree. I do agree that obviously having great players is probably more important, given the current climate in the sport - too many teams have great squads and loads of money. Talent alone isn't enough anymore though, which is where I disagree. There are teams with players just as good, if not better, who also operate in a system which elevates and gets the most out of their ability - whilst also elevating the ability of lesser players too. It's why I just don't see us competing until the effectiveness of the football improves, along with the personnel available.

That is why I genuinely believe coaching is just as important. The game has changed, simply having a great squad of players isn't enough anymore. Teams are breaking records, almost going whole seasons undefeated. Having players who aren't being coached to a World class standard just won't be good enough imo

 

[Mainoldo]

Its just an example.

The point is that a manager works both short term (coaching, game tactics) and long term (squad building, culture, espirit de corps etc). Fergie was a master a the latter, but no amount of coaching was going to turn that bunch into league winners.

Understood. But I always refer back to Conte. He’s taken over two clubs now with poor cultures when he took over. In two seasons he’s provided trophies and results.

Why could Conte not have done a better job then Ole?

 

[Olecurls99]

Few things to debunk here: 1. 'Giving and going' isn't purely an indication of ability. Contrary to what you seem to think, they are aspects of the sport that can be taught/improved upon. Sterling has come leaps and bounds under Pep from an offensive stand point since moving to City.

Rashford is better when we counter attack because simply put, this team as a whole is fecking shite when we try to play otherwise. The whole team looks poorly drilled when we don't have the space - one or two players, I'd understand, but the whole squad and we need to start pointing fingers elsewhere. You need quick, one touch passing, movement off the ball and structured counter pressing etc. to break down teams - those are all aspects of the game that we still highly struggle in imo. If we had a dollar for every time Bruno aimlessly pressed by himself, whilst everyone else watched or for everytime we concede posession when pressed ourselves.

Mctominay not being KDB isn't the point, you're missing the point here. The point is, even though KDB has been largely injured and average this season - they've still looked incredible, because of the coaching and the system in place, letting others thrive. You replace one player from our first 11 and we suddenly look to take a severe hit. Leicester etc. can manage to make squad players look very competent, it's unacceptable we can't.

You're also comparing players which are nothing alike to suit your agenda. Players like Bruno and Pogba are more than comparable to their midfielders but aren't nearly as dominant in our side as our team as a collective unit isn't nearly as dominant due to poorer coaching. It's not just about personnel.

Also the fact that he will dominate with that City team is based on what exactly? This is a manager who over his career averages under 2 points a game, hasn't won a trophy in half a decade and despite spending what's approaching 3 years here - still has huge question marks over the team's collective coaching. I'd flip your argument and say, had Pep gotten the amount of time Ole has with this squad, we would have already won a title.

Lastly - you're talking about how players like AWB aren't in the same category as Cancelo etc. technically, completely ignoring the fact that our current manager signed him. If anything, that should be a red flag to you, that someone you don't consider to be in the top tier technically, but instead, a more defensive minded player, was a priority for Ole.

Giving and going at pace the way Sterling and Mahrez do it, is most definitely a crucial ability for breaking teams down. I do think we could have taught Rashford the technique required for it, at a young age but at this stage the horse has bolted. Rashford is never going to be that type of player and Sterling and Mahrez were showing this ability before they came to City. It's why City bought them. City's success is not based on excellent coaching but on having huge amounts of money and building an amazing squad. And the only way to beat them is by trying to build an equally good squad. We're not there yet and until we are this discussion about managers is mute. The Pep praise is absolutely unbearable too, especially from our own fans. Sterling has come on as a player since joining City but wasn't he a teenager when he signed. I'd be surprised if he didn't improve to be honest and I can't really see any improvement in ability from any other City player. Foden fair enough but again he's a teenager.
You seem to think that someone can coach this group of players to play like City. I couldn't disagree with you more and I compared like for like to illustrate my point. I didn't select the players to prove a point. I compared our first team with theirs. Fred, Mctominay and Bissaka have been in our first team for 2 years now. They play in the same positions as Cancelo, Rodri and Gundogan. Our play naturally improves when we have Pogba available. Why is that? Is he being coached by a City coach on the other side of Manchester? Or is he just a technically superior player to Fred and Mctominay and that ability lends itself to better and more pleasing football?
Again you say that City can fill a De Bruyne gap and the team still plays well. They're filling the gap with Foden, Silva or Mahrez. I'm not missing the point my friend. Can't you clearly see the difference between Mctominay and those players? I assure you if Mctominay plugs that gap the 'system' won't look as sexy.
Your next point is the same theme again. You compare Ole's record with the players at his disposal unfavourably against Pep with the players at his disposal. As if having a superior squad doesn't matter. I assure you, if Ole had City's players these last 3 years his points average would be above 2. It's the players Womp!

All of this begs the question. Do you think our squad is actually as good as City's?

I will take your points on Bissaka and our poor press. Bissaka is improving though.

 

[Womp]

Giving and going at pace the way Sterling and Mahrez do it, is most definitely a crucial ability for breaking teams down. I do think we could have taught Rashford the technique required for it, at a young age but at this stage the horse has bolted. Rashford is never going to be that type of player and Sterling and Mahrez were showing this ability before they came to City. It's why City bought them. City's success is not based on excellent coaching but on having huge amounts of money and building an amazing squad. And the only way to beat them is by trying to build an equally good squad. We're not there yet and until we are this discussion about managers is mute. The Pep praise is absolutely unbearable too, especially from our own fans. Sterling has come on as a player since joining City but wasn't he a teenager when he signed. I'd be surprised if he didn't improve to be honest and I can't really see any improvement in ability from any other City player. Foden fair enough but again he's a teenager.
You seem to think that someone can coach this group of players to play like City. I couldn't disagree with you more and I compared like for like to illustrate my point. I didn't select the players to prove a point. I compared our first team with theirs. Fred, Mctominay and Bissaka have been in our first team for 2 years now. They play in the same positions as Cancelo, Rodri and Gundogan. Our play naturally improves when we have Pogba available. Why is that? Is he being coached by a City coach on the other side of Manchester? Or is he just a technically superior player to Fred and Mctominay and that ability lends itself to better and more pleasing football?
Again you say that City can fill a De Bruyne gap and the team still plays well. They're filling the gap with Foden, Silva or Mahrez. I'm not missing the point my friend. Can't you clearly see the difference between Mctominay and those players? I assure you if Mctominay plugs that gap the 'system' won't look as sexy.
Your next point is the same theme again. You compare Ole's record with the players at his disposal unfavourably against Pep with the players at his disposal. As if having a superior squad doesn't matter. I assure you, if Ole had City's players these last 3 years his points average would be above 2. It's the players Womp!

All of this begs the question. Do you think our squad is actually as good as City's?

I will take your points on Bissaka and our poor press. Bissaka is improving though.

So much of this is a strawman argument, which seems to be the case with a lot of the people who are insistent on keeping Ole around. Arguing points that are never being made, but I'll bite anyway.

I do think we could have taught Rashford the technique required for it, at a young age but at this stage the horse has bolted. Rashford is never going to be that type of player

How exactly is it impossible for a 23 year old forward to improve his ability to pass and move when being coached to do so? That is fecking ridiculous. If not possible, what the feck even is the point of any coaches in the first place? The point of training? If players, especially ones that are still fecking kids by comparision, can't improve? Baffling. Why are teams going for the best coaches? Just for a laugh? They like spending larger sums of money on the best coaches just cause they like throwing their cash around?

City's success is not based on excellent coaching but on having huge amounts of money and building an amazing squad. And the only way to beat them is by trying to build an equally good squad.

Did Liverpool spend as much money as City did to close the gap on them? Or did Jurgen Klopp implement a system which got the absolute most out of his players? A system which was evident even before the signings of VVD and Allisson? Everyone and their nan could see the style of football Liverpool were implementing, their great business elevated their squad to new heights, turning their relentless football into winning football. Also your point regarding City is nonsense as well imo. They have spent a fecking shit load of money, everyone knows that - but with Pep, he has come in and elevated the team to another level. They have always spent a shit load, but they have been shattering records left, right and centre since Pep has implemented what he wanted, but ye, let's pretend it has nothing to do with the coaching and is purely just the players.

Has RB Leipzig spent the same amount of money, or do they have the same quality of squad available as Bayern Munich? Yet they are only 4 points behind arguably the best team on the planet, playing great football, with a team inferior to ours. It must have been pure luck that they also go further in Europe than we do, have most recently knocked us out of Europe as well, with an inferior squad.
This nonsense that it's only about the players needs to stop. I've said it before, you need great players to win trophies, you don't need great players to see signs of implementing an effective offensive style of football.

Sterling has come on as a player since joining City but wasn't he a teenager when he signed. I'd be surprised if he didn't improve to be honest and I can't really see any improvement in ability from any other City player. Foden fair enough but again he's a teenager.

Sterling not improving under Pep is fecking laughable. The kid was a single digit goal per season player. He is averaging close to 20 goals a season now under Pep. You only really need to also look at the positions he is finding himself in, the movement etc. due to the system they implement. Also your point that other players hasn't improved is surely satire? He has turned a winger/advanced playmaker in KDB into arguably the best CM on the planet. Sane has had his best (and so far only) great season under him, Cancelo is having the season of his life, Bernardo Silva was the best player in the prem for a while etc. Let's not try and rewrite history to try and suit an agenda. Whether or not you find the Pep love 'nauseating' is irrelevant. Not that I'd even consider it 'love'. I actually think Pep is a fecking weirdo and somewhat dislike him, but to discount his ability as a coach is ridiculous.

You seem to think that someone can coach this group of players to play like City. I couldn't disagree with you more and I compared like for like to illustrate my point. I didn't select the players to prove a point. I compared our first team with theirs. Fred, Mctominay and Bissaka have been in our first team for 2 years now. They play in the same positions as Cancelo, Rodri and Gundogan. Our play naturally improves when we have Pogba available. Why is that? Is he being coached by a City coach on the other side of Manchester? Or is he just a technically superior player to Fred and Mctominay and that ability lends itself to better and more pleasing football?

Who is saying that we can be coached to play like City? Strawman. Also your point is irrelevant as the positions you are comparing aren't even completely correct. Given the system they implement, Gundogan plays more advanced than both Fred and Mctominay, he would be better suited being compared to players like Bruno and Pogba. Also you compare Cancelo to AWB but disregard the fact that it was Ole who chose to sign AWB. He would have had input in potentially signing a more progressive FB. Our play naturally improves when Pogba plays because he is a better player than our other midfielders - no-one is suggesting a team won't improve with better players, once again, a strawman. What the problem is - is even with Pogba, the quality is still not up to the required standard due to the implemented system. You take our best players out and the drop off is huge, due to our over reliance on individuality. You can't expect your star players to play every fecking minute of a season, that's what a squad is for. That's why teams like Liverpool etc. can bring in players like Shaqiri etc and still look somewhat effective - the players are coached to a higher standard, so the great players elevate the system, the players themselves aren't the system, which seems to be the case with us.

Again you say that City can fill a De Bruyne gap and the team still plays well. They're filling the gap with Foden, Silva or Mahrez. I'm not missing the point my friend. Can't you clearly see the difference between Mctominay and those players? I assure you if Mctominay plugs that gap the 'system' won't look as sexy.

Considering not a single one of those players actually play in KDB's position, I'd tend to disagree. Gundogan is a more suitable example and in this case - it was a player who has been severely injury plagued and looked severely passed it. He is having arguably the season of his life despite all that. I wonder why that is? You compare that to VDB slotting in for us - a player who has played for one of the most technical sides on the planet, a team consistently in and around the final few teams in the CL, who looks absolutely shite playing for us. Surely it can't be Ajax's system improving these players?

Your next point is the same theme again. You compare Ole's record with the players at his disposal unfavourably against Pep with the players at his disposal. As if having a superior squad doesn't matter. I assure you, if Ole had City's players these last 3 years his points average would be above 2. It's the players Womp!

It absolutely is comparable. That average also accounts of his time in Norway. Compare the quality of that team and that league - he still had that point average. Pep may have had better players, but he was also doing it at a far greater level. Not to add, didn't Molde win the league right after Ole left? Considering he hasn't won a trophy at all in 5 years, that's worrying.

 

[Eplel]

And the only way to beat them is by trying to build an equally good squad.

We also need a manager who doesn't play 11 DMs against Palace.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I’m sick to my back teeth of seeing the sociedad game used to beat Ole, pick another one ffs.

I agree with all of the post you’re replying to here. It’s bang on

In fairness to that poster it’s a recent game and a very clear example. Luckily this is a debate that can actually be decided by facts.

Does anyone know where you can find stats on total player minutes as that would decide this question on rotation pretty quickly? City just published an article showing how much they’re using their obscene squad depth at the moment so I’m sure we can find the data somewhere for United.

 

[Olecurls99]

So much of this is a strawman argument, which seems to be the case with a lot of the people who are insistent on keeping Ole around. Arguing points that are never being made, but I'll bite anyway.



How exactly is it impossible for a 23 year old forward to improve his ability to pass and move when being coached to do so? That is fecking ridiculous. If not possible, what the feck even is the point of any coaches in the first place? The point of training? If players, especially ones that are still fecking kids by comparision, can't improve? Baffling. Why are teams going for the best coaches? Just for a laugh? They like spending larger sums of money on the best coaches just cause they like throwing their cash around?



Did Liverpool spend as much money as City did to close the gap on them? Or did Jurgen Klopp implement a system which got the absolute most out of his players? A system which was evident even before the signings of VVD and Allisson? Everyone and their nan could see the style of football Liverpool were implementing, their great business elevated their squad to new heights, turning their relentless football into winning football. Also your point regarding City is nonsense as well imo. They have spent a fecking shit load of money, everyone knows that - but with Pep, he has come in and elevated the team to another level. They have always spent a shit load, but they have been shattering records left, right and centre since Pep has implemented what he wanted, but ye, let's pretend it has nothing to do with the coaching and is purely just the players.

Has RB Leipzig spent the same amount of money, or do they have the same quality of squad available as Bayern Munich? Yet they are only 4 points behind arguably the best team on the planet, playing great football, with a team inferior to ours. It must have been pure luck that they also go further in Europe than we do, have most recently knocked us out of Europe as well, with an inferior squad.
This nonsense that it's only about the players needs to stop. I've said it before, you need great players to win trophies, you don't need great players to see signs of implementing an effective offensive style of football.



Sterling not improving under Pep is fecking laughable. The kid was a single digit goal per season player. He is averaging close to 20 goals a season now under Pep. You only really need to also look at the positions he is finding himself in, the movement etc. due to the system they implement. Also your point that other players hasn't improved is surely satire? He has turned a winger/advanced playmaker in KDB into arguably the best CM on the planet. Sane has had his best (and so far only) great season under him, Cancelo is having the season of his life, Bernardo Silva was the best player in the prem for a while etc. Let's not try and rewrite history to try and suit an agenda. Whether or not you find the Pep love 'nauseating' is irrelevant. Not that I'd even consider it 'love'. I actually think Pep is a fecking weirdo and somewhat dislike him, but to discount his ability as a coach is ridiculous.



Who is saying that we can be coached to play like City? Strawman. Also your point is irrelevant as the positions you are comparing aren't even completely correct. Given the system they implement, Gundogan plays more advanced than both Fred and Mctominay, he would be better suited being compared to players like Bruno and Pogba. Also you compare Cancelo to AWB but disregard the fact that it was Ole who chose to sign AWB. He would have had input in potentially signing a more progressive FB. Our play naturally improves when Pogba plays because he is a better player than our other midfielders - no-one is suggesting a team won't improve with better players, once again, a strawman. What the problem is - is even with Pogba, the quality is still not up to the required standard due to the implemented system. You take our best players out and the drop off is huge, due to our over reliance on individuality. You can't expect your star players to play every fecking minute of a season, that's what a squad is for. That's why teams like Liverpool etc. can bring in players like Shaqiri etc and still look somewhat effective - the players are coached to a higher standard, so the great players elevate the system, the players themselves aren't the system, which seems to be the case with us.



Considering not a single one of those players actually play in KDB's position, I'd tend to disagree. Gundogan is a more suitable example and in this case - it was a player who has been severely injury plagued and looked severely passed it. He is having arguably the season of his life despite all that. I wonder why that is? You compare that to VDB slotting in for us - a player who has played for one of the most technical sides on the planet, a team consistently in and around the final few teams in the CL, who looks absolutely shite playing for us. Surely it can't be Ajax's system improving these players?



It absolutely is comparable. That average also accounts of his time in Norway. Compare the quality of that team and that league - he still had that point average. Pep may have had better players, but he was also doing it at a far greater level. Not to add, didn't Molde win the league right after Ole left? Considering he hasn't won a trophy at all in 5 years, that's worrying.

It's not a straw man argument. I'm literally going through your post point for point. Please debate the issue and not the debater. It's much more pleasant for everyone.

You think Rashford can be coached to pass and move like Sterling. (That's what I've gleaned from your next paragraph. If that's incorrect please let me know. Don't slag off my debating style.) I don't. I think Rashford is by and large the player warts and all we see before us. His technique, receiving the ball, passing the ball, running with the ball whilst effective in space isn't great. I think the training window, to improve his level of ball control to Sterling level, has passed. It takes thousands of hours, which is why I believe he can't dramatically improve these abilities. Players decision making, game management and general nous can be improved throughout their career but rarely does a player improve his technique, whoever his coach is.

Klopp next. I think they'd still be struggling for 4th without Van Dijk, style or no style, sexy system or no sexy system. Wait! That's already happening. My opinion is playing out before our eyes on that one. Can you at least cede that point? Klopp and his system need good players. Come on Wompy. You set yourself up there.

Back to Pep. I just don't think Pep's coaching and planning plays as big a role as you think it does. I think he has extremely talented players and they go out and play great football. He has their respect which is crucial but he's not going to do it with Everton. I'm not saying you said he would. I'm just stating my own opinion. Pellegrini had them playing great stuff too if I recall correctly. Del Bosque at Madrid. Luis Enrique at Barca. I could go on forever baby.

I don't know much about Leipzig but I would say that they do have some good players. Some are even better than our players. If you don't think so please let me know and I'll find you some. Leicester have some better players than us too by the way. Schmeichel over Henderson, Ndidi over Fred perhaps, Tielemans over Mctominay. I'm sure there's more but I don't watch enough of them to say. Again these are like for like positions. Foden has definitely played in De Bruyne's position this season by the way. Silva too. But that's an earlier example of City's amazing depth in top quality players.

Have a read back. I agreed that Sterling improved.

De Bruyne was signed for a huge fee, at the time, and had been an amazing player the previous season in Germany. He is an amazing player. Managers like Mourinho can definitely stifle great talents like De Bruyne. Pep can be applauded for not doing that, but Kevin De Bruyne is a great player 99% because of Kevin De Bruyne in my humble opinion. Sane, Silva, Cancelo are marvelous players who would flourish anywhere once they get a run of games. Again you think it's down to Pep I'm assuming. If you're not just tell me. I don't. I think they're great players who were all signed for huge fees. Why doesn't Pep sign players for low fees if he's such a great coach? I'm not saying you said he could. Just asking the question. Feel free to answer my questions. I had some on the previous post too.

Next it's us relying on individuals and not having a much cherished system. You used Liverpool again! Come on Womp. Liverpool are literally dreadful without their best player. I can't really get my head around what you're trying to say here to be honest. You acknowledge that there's a drop off when Pogba isn't there but...... Come back to me on this one please Womp. I am enjoying the debate even if I disagree. I did cede the Bissaka point to you in my last post. Are you reading all of my posts?

Nearly there. Gundogan and Rodri have been city's deepest 2 midfielders this season. I'm pretty sure that's a fact. Fred and Mctominay are our 2 midfielders. Their's are way better technically. The kind of stuff you learn after thousands of hours kicking a ball around as a kid. I don't know what Fred was doing in Brazil but Gundy is miles better than him technically. If you don't think so let me know. If you think Pep could make Fred better technically, let me know. I think you think that Pep can. I don't. Again, the hours as a kid. That's why these players are so expensive in the first place. That's why a coach is on 5 grand a week and a player is on 300 grand a week.

Enjoying the debate. Oh I nearly forgot the last point. I do like to answer every point so I'm not seen to be picking and choosing to suit my 'agenda'. Please reciprocate if you can. Pep's record with MessiBarca, Bayern in Germany and PetroCity against Ole's. I think I've covered this. Pep had better players. I know you won't like me saying that but......

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

Not that im a mind reader, but i dont think thats the point hes making. The manager is of course the most important person at the club, but any manager sort of lives and dies based on the players available to him.

Fergie won nothing his first years because Man Utd back then was mostly belligirent drunkards with more attitude than talent. He became a legend because he was second to none in crafting and assembling competetive squads with players of the right attitude and talent

Coaching/motivation of course matters to make a team greater than the sum of their parts, but i feel like its effect is often overstated on here, especially when it comes to inividual player ability

Excellent post.

A good team is an amalgamation of factors like player quality (including squad depth), mentality, club culture, tactics, etc.

 

[el3mel]

Am I only one who has been enjoying not discussing much about football this last week ? I have barely posted in football forums last few days bar one post here and there. Almost as if I don't enjoy discussing football as much as I used to or something.

 

[Raveneye]

Refresh my memory. When was that?

It needs to get more consistent and sustained, but we've had more than enough awesome spells and moments in games to satisfy the "occasionally scintillating" standard. If you're just gonna highlight "scintillating" that hardly seems like a good faith question now does it?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Understood. But I always refer back to Conte. He’s taken over two clubs now with poor cultures when he took over. In two seasons he’s provided trophies and results.

Why could Conte not have done a better job then Ole?

You know the answer. Conte is a top class manager and Ole obviously isn't.

 

[Gazza]

"Come on Womp! Come back to me Womp!"

 

[crossy1686]

Am I only one who has been enjoying not discussing much about football this last week ? I have barely posted in football forums last few days bar one post here and there. Almost as if I don't enjoy discussing football as much as I used to or something.

I’ve largely tried to stay away from here this season. There’s absolute bollocks posted on a daily basis, agenda posting and emotional knee jerk reactions every time we lose.

The season was written off by the board in the summer when they chose not to spend big on first team players and after coming to terms with that I decided to care as much as they did about this season. Hopefully we improve on last season, make top 4 again and maybe win a trophy.

It’s just not worth engaging with apparent United fans who put more weight on what rival fans and the media think of us and Solskjaer, than actual United fans.

 

[Womp]

It's not a straw man argument. I'm literally going through your post point for point. Please debate the issue and not the debater. It's much more pleasant for everyone.

You think Rashford can be coached to pass and move like Sterling. (That's what I've gleaned from your next paragraph. If that's incorrect please let me know. Don't slag off my debating style.) I don't. I think Rashford is by and large the player warts and all we see before us. His technique, receiving the ball, passing the ball, running with the ball whilst effective in space isn't great. I think the training window, to improve his level of ball control to Sterling level, has passed. It takes thousands of hours, which is why I believe he can't dramatically improve these abilities. Players decision making, game management and general nous can be improved throughout their career but rarely does a player improve his technique, whoever his coach is.

Klopp next. I think they'd still be struggling for 4th without Van Dijk, style or no style, sexy system or no sexy system. Wait! That's already happening. My opinion is playing out before our eyes on that one. Can you at least cede that point? Klopp and his system need good players. Come on Wompy. You set yourself up there.

Back to Pep. I just don't think Pep's coaching and planning plays as big a role as you think it does. I think he has extremely talented players and they go out and play great football. He has their respect which is crucial but he's not going to do it with Everton. I'm not saying you said he would. I'm just stating my own opinion. Pellegrini had them playing great stuff too if I recall correctly. Del Bosque at Madrid. Luis Enrique at Barca. I could go on forever baby.

I don't know much about Leipzig but I would say that they do have some good players. Some are even better than our players. If you don't think so please let me know and I'll find you some. Leicester have some better players than us too by the way. Schmeichel over Henderson, Ndidi over Fred perhaps, Tielemans over Mctominay. I'm sure there's more but I don't watch enough of them to say. Again these are like for like positions. Foden has definitely played in De Bruyne's position this season by the way. Silva too. But that's an earlier example of City's amazing depth in top quality players.

Have a read back. I agreed that Sterling improved.

De Bruyne was signed for a huge fee, at the time, and had been an amazing player the previous season in Germany. He is an amazing player. Managers like Mourinho can definitely stifle great talents like De Bruyne. Pep can be applauded for not doing that, but Kevin De Bruyne is a great player 99% because of Kevin De Bruyne in my humble opinion. Sane, Silva, Cancelo are marvelous players who would flourish anywhere once they get a run of games. Again you think it's down to Pep I'm assuming. If you're not just tell me. I don't. I think they're great players who were all signed for huge fees. Why doesn't Pep sign players for low fees if he's such a great coach? I'm not saying you said he could. Just asking the question. Feel free to answer my questions. I had some on the previous post too.

Next it's us relying on individuals and not having a much cherished system. You used Liverpool again! Come on Womp. Liverpool are literally dreadful without their best player. I can't really get my head around what you're trying to say here to be honest. You acknowledge that there's a drop off when Pogba isn't there but...... Come back to me on this one please Womp. I am enjoying the debate even if I disagree. I did cede the Bissaka point to you in my last post. Are you reading all of my posts?

Nearly there. Gundogan and Rodri have been city's deepest 2 midfielders this season. I'm pretty sure that's a fact. Fred and Mctominay are our 2 midfielders. Their's are way better technically. The kind of stuff you learn after thousands of hours kicking a ball around as a kid. I don't know what Fred was doing in Brazil but Gundy is miles better than him technically. If you don't think so let me know. If you think Pep could make Fred better technically, let me know. I think you think that Pep can. I don't. Again, the hours as a kid. That's why these players are so expensive in the first place. That's why a coach is on 5 grand a week and a player is on 300 grand a week.

Enjoying the debate. Oh I nearly forgot the last point. I do like to answer every point so I'm not seen to be picking and choosing to suit my 'agenda'. Please reciprocate if you can. Pep's record with MessiBarca, Bayern in Germany and PetroCity against Ole's. I think I've covered this. Pep had better players. I know you won't like me saying that but......

To start - the point that Rashford can't improve his technique with proper coaching, when he's still only 23 is silly to me. There is countless examples of players improving themselves, making their style more effective. This 'it would take thousands of hours' is based on no actual facts and is a random number you're pulling out of the sky, I'm assuming? Once again, LVG had us playing triangles, passing and moving within a season or two. Once again, it was dreadful - but he has shown that these players (of whom Rashford was one), can manage it. It's a lot harder for players to be able to pass and move when there is no fecking movement in the squad and the passing is static and predictable. It's a coaching and a tactics issue. Rashford may not be as gifted a dribbler as Sterling, but City's players due to their style are consistently getting their forwards isolated with opposition defenders, due to the the quick movement and passing. Players don't just naturally know how to play with eachother to such a high level. It is taught. That is also why international football is quite often not up to the same standard as club football - coaching and synergy.

Whether or not Klopp is struggling for 4th is completely irrelevant - you didn't address my point. The fact of the matter is, even before VVD and Allison were brought in - what Klopp was implementing there and the success it could bring was more than obvious, everyone could see it. I remember we finished second with Jose, above them and everyone still expected Liverpool to overtake us. I've already agreed that you need great players to win trophies, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the point, but once again, you don't need them to begin implementing a good style of football. Graham Potter has some fecking shite players at Brighton, yet their xG for the season is only 5 or so xG below ours. Is that also the quality of his players? You claim that Liverpool are having a rubbish season, which is fair, but even with their ridiculous injury record this season, they have a higher xG than us, which brings up questions about the sustainability of our football, but that's another discussion all together.

How exactly does Pep's coaching not play a role? Since coming to City, he is shattering EPL records, a team needs to be almost perfect throughout the season to overtake his side. City once again, have always had a good squad and they did play some good stuff with Pellegrini, I agree. Pep has taken them up a level or two though. That's what World class coaches do. They improve World class players even further due to their system.

Your point on RB Leipzig is completely disregarding the work they are doing, purely because it goes against your point that teams need great players to play good stuff. This is a team that knocked us out of Europe, with fecking Yussuf Poulsen as their forward. They do have some good players, of course they do, which is why their good football also allows them to compete with Bayern, but their squad doesn't come close to Bayern's level, the players are being elevated. Dani Olmo is good - Pogba and Bruno are better. Forsberg is good, Rashford is better etc. Yet they get further than us in Europe and are nipping at the heels of arguably the best team on the planet in Bayern in their respective league, all whilst also playing football that is more entertaining to watch than ours.

No you didn't concede that Sterling had improved. You said you wouldn't be surprised had Sterling not improved.

Sterling has come on as a player since joining City but wasn't he a teenager when he signed. I'd be surprised if he didn't improve to be honest

There is the quote for reference. Let's not pretend a player who under Pep, has over doubled his goal tally for the season hasn't improved.

No-one is saying KDB wasn't a great player before he was signed. Your question was what players had he improved and I gave the example of him turning a player who operated in a different role into the best CM on the planet. Of course KDB had his part to play in that - a huge one, but let's not pretend it's just a coincidence that these players who yes, as you say, were already great, play under Pep and go up even another level. Douglas Costa is another example of this - he played like a man possessed under Pep at Bayern and has been anonymous ever since. He improves offensive players incredibly. Sane is an amazing talent, not player. He is yet to come anywhere close to that season he actually played under Pep. Cancelo is playing the best football of his life. No-one is suggesting these aren't great players, the premise here is that Pep improves them.

Also, to answer your question, the reason why Pep doesn't spend on cheap players is the same reason clubs go for Pep in the first place - because he builds dominant teams who win trophies. Even before he completed his squad at City though, you could see the style being implemented, it was clear he only needed to improve the personnel to turn that great football into winning football.

Liverpool being dreadful is simply wrong. They have a higher xG than us and their expected points is right behind ours. I really wouldn't be surprised (assuming Klopp stays on), if this season is an anomaly for them. When you take into consideration that their squad has been decimated for large parts of the season - that I'd argue, is more a slight on us than it is on them. Klopp has proven already that when he has the players, his system can compete at the very top. Ole has so far proven that we still struggle to play football in congested areas, are slow and pedestrian in moving the ball and struggle to break down teams who don't give us a mile of space to operate in. If people were seeing signs of implementing a style like Klopp was at Liverpool, people wouldn't mind the constant SF eliminations and being so far from City, because they would have something to have hope in.

Gundogan isn't a deep sitting midfielder, no. Watching our static play and formation is in no way comparable to City's. Gundogan's best form this season has come as an advanced midfielder - a role KDB can also utilise. Rodri sits behind the creative players, with Zinchenko and Cancelo usually coming inside to support the passing lanes/provide defensive cover when in possession. McFred play as the 'two' for us, whereas Bruno plays further forward - it's more akin to the Gundogan/KDB role. So no, comparing McFred to players like Gundogan and KDB isn't like for like - they play completely different roles and have different expectations, mainly down to the formation and approach City employ. Rodri is comparable though, I'll give you that. That being said though, Ole has an opportunity to sign a DM and so far has not done so.

Also trying to down play his achievements due to his circumstances is hilarious. You claim it was 'MessiBarca' but Messi went from scoring 16 goals the prior season to 38 under Pep. The context here is missing. Yes, he has had better players. Yes, Ole has never had the honour being able to coach someone of Messi's talent, but even with the better squad and better players - Pep also competed against far, far greater competition than Ole did in Norway. He earned that right with his unrivalled success. To try and downplay his success as if it is in anyway even in the same universe as Ole's is fecking hilarious to me, not going to lie. Ole's career outside of Norway so far is a relegation in the EPL, a terrible run in the Championship which led to his sacking and so far approaching 3 years with a United team and looking no closer to winning a major trophy. LVG and Mourinho had won trophies in this time. I love Ole, but he is and never will be in the same universe as Pep. It's not like he is a newcomer, he has been coaching for not much less time than Pep has.

 

[Olecurls99]

To start - the point that Rashford can't improve his technique with proper coaching, when he's still only 23 is silly to me. There is countless examples of players improving themselves, making their style more effective. This 'it would take thousands of hours' is based on no actual facts and is a random number you're pulling out of the sky, I'm assuming? Once again, LVG had us playing triangles, passing and moving within a season or two. Once again, it was dreadful - but he has shown that these players (of whom Rashford was one), can manage it. It's a lot harder for players to be able to pass and move when there is no fecking movement in the squad and the passing is static and predictable. It's a coaching and a tactics issue. Rashford may not be as gifted a dribbler as Sterling, but City's players due to their style are consistently getting their forwards isolated with opposition defenders, due to the the quick movement and passing. Players don't just naturally know how to play with eachother to such a high level. It is taught. That is also why international football is quite often not up to the same standard as club football - coaching and synergy.

Whether or not Klopp is struggling for 4th is completely irrelevant - you didn't address my point. The fact of the matter is, even before VVD and Allison were brought in - what Klopp was implementing there and the success it could bring was more than obvious, everyone could see it. I remember we finished second with Jose, above them and everyone still expected Liverpool to overtake us. I've already agreed that you need great players to win trophies, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the point, but once again, you don't need them to begin implementing a good style of football. Graham Potter has some fecking shite players at Brighton, yet their xG for the season is only 5 or so xG below ours. Is that also the quality of his players? You claim that Liverpool are having a rubbish season, which is fair, but even with their ridiculous injury record this season, they have a higher xG than us, which brings up questions about the sustainability of our football, but that's another discussion all together.

How exactly does Pep's coaching not play a role? Since coming to City, he is shattering EPL records, a team needs to be almost perfect throughout the season to overtake his side. City once again, have always had a good squad and they did play some good stuff with Pellegrini, I agree. Pep has taken them up a level or two though. That's what World class coaches do. They improve World class players even further due to their system.

Your point on RB Leipzig is completely disregarding the work they are doing, purely because it goes against your point that teams need great players to play good stuff. This is a team that knocked us out of Europe, with fecking Yussuf Poulsen as their forward. They do have some good players, of course they do, which is why their good football also allows them to compete with Bayern, but their squad doesn't come close to Bayern's level, the players are being elevated. Dani Olmo is good - Pogba and Bruno are better. Forsberg is good, Rashford is better etc. Yet they get further than us in Europe and are nipping at the heels of arguably the best team on the planet in Bayern in their respective league, all whilst also playing football that is more entertaining to watch than ours.

No you didn't concede that Sterling had improved. You said you wouldn't be surprised had Sterling not improved.



There is the quote for reference. Let's not pretend a player who under Pep, has over doubled his goal tally for the season hasn't improved.

No-one is saying KDB wasn't a great player before he was signed. Your question was what players had he improved and I gave the example of him turning a player who operated in a different role into the best CM on the planet. Of course KDB had his part to play in that - a huge one, but let's not pretend it's just a coincidence that these players who yes, as you say, were already great, play under Pep and go up even another level. Douglas Costa is another example of this - he played like a man possessed under Pep at Bayern and has been anonymous ever since. He improves offensive players incredibly. Sane is an amazing talent, not player. He is yet to come anywhere close to that season he actually played under Pep. Cancelo is playing the best football of his life. No-one is suggesting these aren't great players, the premise here is that Pep improves them.

Also, to answer your question, the reason why Pep doesn't spend on cheap players is the same reason clubs go for Pep in the first place - because he builds dominant teams who win trophies. Even before he completed his squad at City though, you could see the style being implemented, it was clear he only needed to improve the personnel to turn that great football into winning football.

Liverpool being dreadful is simply wrong. They have a higher xG than us and their expected points is right behind ours. I really wouldn't be surprised (assuming Klopp stays on), if this season is an anomaly for them. When you take into consideration that their squad has been decimated for large parts of the season - that I'd argue, is more a slight on us than it is on them. Klopp has proven already that when he has the players, his system can compete at the very top. Ole has so far proven that we still struggle to play football in congested areas, are slow and pedestrian in moving the ball and struggle to break down teams who don't give us a mile of space to operate in. If people were seeing signs of implementing a style like Klopp was at Liverpool, people wouldn't mind the constant SF eliminations and being so far from City, because they would have something to have hope in.

Gundogan isn't a deep sitting midfielder, no. Watching our static play and formation is in no way comparable to City's. Gundogan's best form this season has come as an advanced midfielder - a role KDB can also utilise. Rodri sits behind the creative players, with Zinchenko and Cancelo usually coming inside to support the passing lanes/provide defensive cover when in possession. McFred play as the 'two' for us, whereas Bruno plays further forward - it's more akin to the Gundogan/KDB role. So no, comparing McFred to players like Gundogan and KDB isn't like for like - they play completely different roles and have different expectations, mainly down to the formation and approach City employ. Rodri is comparable though, I'll give you that. That being said though, Ole has an opportunity to sign a DM and so far has not done so.

Also trying to down play his achievements due to his circumstances is hilarious. You claim it was 'MessiBarca' but Messi went from scoring 16 goals the prior season to 38 under Pep. The context here is missing. Yes, he has had better players. Yes, Ole has never had the honour being able to coach someone of Messi's talent, but even with the better squad and better players - Pep also competed against far, far greater competition than Ole did in Norway. He earned that right with his unrivalled success. To try and downplay his success as if it is in anyway even in the same universe as Ole's is fecking hilarious to me, not going to lie. Ole's career outside of Norway so far is a relegation in the EPL, a terrible run in the Championship which led to his sacking and so far approaching 3 years with a United team and looking no closer to winning a major trophy. LVG and Mourinho had won trophies in this time. I love Ole, but he is and never will be in the same universe as Pep. It's not like he is a newcomer, he has been coaching for not much less time than Pep has.

And Ole started at Molde or something while Pep started with Messi at Barca. Look we're not going to agree Womp. I think City are great because of their great players predominantly and you think Pep is more important. That's fine.
By the looks of things it doesn't look like City are going to lose either of them so Ole probably hasn't got a chance of winning a major competition over the next few years either. I would like to see him with a similar level of squad though just to see the huge gap in coaching talent. Which leads me to my original and as of yet unanswered question.



Do you think our squad is as good as City's?

 

[Womp]

And Ole started at Molde or something while Pep started with Messi at Barca. Look we're not going to agree Womp. I think City are great because of their great players predominantly and you think Pep is more important. That's fine.
By the looks of things it doesn't look like City are going to lose either of them so Ole probably hasn't got a chance of winning a major competition over the next few years either. I would like to see him with a similar level of squad though just to see the huge gap in coaching talent. Which leads me to my original and as of yet unanswered question.



Do you think our squad is as good as City's?

Point being, Messi over doubled his goal contribution from the previous season under Pep. It's not as easy as just saying 'he had Messi'. It's disregarding context.

To answer your question; no, I don't think our squad is as good as City's. Problem is, I believe the discrepancy in the managers will mean that even if we did have a squad as good, it wouldn't be enough.

 

[Olecurls99]

And Ole started at Molde or something while Pep started with Messi at Barca. Look we're not going to agree Womp. I think City are great because of their great players predominantly and you think Pep is more important. That's fine.
By the looks of things it doesn't look like City are going to lose either of them so Ole probably hasn't got a chance of winning a major competition over the next few years either. I would like to see him with a similar level of squad though just to see the huge gap in coaching talent. Which leads me to my original and as of yet unanswered question.

Do you think our squad is as good as City's?

Point being, Messi over doubled his goal contribution from the previous season under Pep. It's not as easy as just saying 'he had Messi'. It's disregarding context.

To answer your question; no, I don't think our squad is as good as City's. Problem is, I believe the discrepancy in the managers will mean that even if we did have a squad as good, it wouldn't be enough.

What age was Messi? Again the improvements of teenagers. Messi did fall to pieces when Pep left.

Thanks for answering my question Womp. Good debate

 

[Robbie Boy]

And Ole started at Molde or something while Pep started with Messi at Barca. Look we're not going to agree Womp. I think City are great because of their great players predominantly and you think Pep is more important. That's fine.
By the looks of things it doesn't look like City are going to lose either of them so Ole probably hasn't got a chance of winning a major competition over the next few years either. I would like to see him with a similar level of squad though just to see the huge gap in coaching talent. Which leads me to my original and as of yet unanswered question.



Do you think our squad is as good as City's?

I somehow don't think you guys are going to find an agreement here

 

[Womp]

What age was Messi? Again the improvements of teenagers. Messi did fall to pieces when Pep left.

Thanks for answering my question Womp. Good debate

I don't think him going from 16 to 38 goals in a matter of a few months is purely down to 'improvements as a teenager'. Cheers for the debate, though think it's obvious we aren't going to see eye to eye on this matter.

 

[Siezard]

Pep definitely had been using a good style and tactics. He also had pretty good management of the players. He reminds me of Jeff Bezos. The players don't dare to disrespect him.

In comparison, Klopp's style is gegenpressing which relies a lot on fitness. But players simply cannot play so intensively if matches are on every 3-4 days so this was partly the reason for Liverpool's downfall this season.

Ole proves himself by winning the first league title in more than 30 years for Molde and then retaining the title again. Granted its' the Norwegian league but it's still a top divsion league in europe.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

And Ole started at Molde or something while Pep started with Messi at Barca. Look we're not going to agree Womp. I think City are great because of their great players predominantly and you think Pep is more important. That's fine.
By the looks of things it doesn't look like City are going to lose either of them so Ole probably hasn't got a chance of winning a major competition over the next few years either. I would like to see him with a similar level of squad though just to see the huge gap in coaching talent. Which leads me to my original and as of yet unanswered question.



Do you think our squad is as good as City's?

Is your argument actually that our squad needs to be as good as City's before we can judge Ole's abilities as a manager?

Of course great teams need to have great players. But the best managers tend to elevate both individuals and the collective of those individuals into a seamless machine.

Your posts above definitely seems to be inaccurately playing down the impact of a manager. I mean, Manchester United fans, of all of them, should understand that this fully considering our steep fall from grace ever since Sir Alex retired. See Simeone at Atletico, Conte at multiple clubs, Klopp at Dortmund, and many more. The former is on his way to a second La Liga title and being a regular feature in the CL often getting to the final stages, and he didn't have a squad like City's. Conte walks into clubs and nearly instantly brings in the excellence required to win titles. Even ignoring the top sides who win things you have so many examples of managers exceeding expectations in terms of both peformances and result.

And on those managers you touched upon, Klopp did absolutely transform Liverpool. They needed VVD to win titles? Of course they did. But they also identified him and improved him. Same with Fabinho. Everyone thought he was a good player but not that good. Further even before they added those players he managed to get them to play absolutely top class fluid attacking football which shows what he could do without spending that much. And that stylish and superb attacking football did not need VVD. This season Pep has not has produced record setting and title winning contributions from - Stones, Dias (cheaper than Maguire), kid Foden, written off Gundogan, no CF other than the not so special Jesus, much criticised Rodri, Zinchenko at LB and so on, without Aguero or KDb for the most part.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Pep definitely had been using a good style and tactics. He also had pretty good management of the players. He reminds me of Jeff Bezos. The players don't dare to disrespect him.

In comparison, Klopp's style is gegenpressing which relies a lot on fitness. But players simply cannot play so intensively if matches are on every 3-4 days so this was partly the reason for Liverpool's downfall this season.

Ole proves himself by winning the first league title in more than 30 years for Molde and then retaining the title again. Granted its' the Norwegian league but it's still a top divsion league in europe.

Ole has to prove himself at the top level. He hasn't yet. I mean at Manchester United you have to prove yourself to be a top player/manager. Big Sam has proven himself as a manager top but not for the level needed at United.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

To start - the point that Rashford can't improve his technique with proper coaching, when he's still only 23 is silly to me. There is countless examples of players improving themselves, making their style more effective. This 'it would take thousands of hours' is based on no actual facts and is a random number you're pulling out of the sky, I'm assuming? Once again, LVG had us playing triangles, passing and moving within a season or two. Once again, it was dreadful - but he has shown that these players (of whom Rashford was one), can manage it. It's a lot harder for players to be able to pass and move when there is no fecking movement in the squad and the passing is static and predictable. It's a coaching and a tactics issue. Rashford may not be as gifted a dribbler as Sterling, but City's players due to their style are consistently getting their forwards isolated with opposition defenders, due to the the quick movement and passing. Players don't just naturally know how to play with eachother to such a high level. It is taught. That is also why international football is quite often not up to the same standard as club football - coaching and synergy.

Whether or not Klopp is struggling for 4th is completely irrelevant - you didn't address my point. The fact of the matter is, even before VVD and Allison were brought in - what Klopp was implementing there and the success it could bring was more than obvious, everyone could see it. I remember we finished second with Jose, above them and everyone still expected Liverpool to overtake us. I've already agreed that you need great players to win trophies, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the point, but once again, you don't need them to begin implementing a good style of football. Graham Potter has some fecking shite players at Brighton, yet their xG for the season is only 5 or so xG below ours. Is that also the quality of his players? You claim that Liverpool are having a rubbish season, which is fair, but even with their ridiculous injury record this season, they have a higher xG than us, which brings up questions about the sustainability of our football, but that's another discussion all together.

How exactly does Pep's coaching not play a role? Since coming to City, he is shattering EPL records, a team needs to be almost perfect throughout the season to overtake his side. City once again, have always had a good squad and they did play some good stuff with Pellegrini, I agree. Pep has taken them up a level or two though. That's what World class coaches do. They improve World class players even further due to their system.

Your point on RB Leipzig is completely disregarding the work they are doing, purely because it goes against your point that teams need great players to play good stuff. This is a team that knocked us out of Europe, with fecking Yussuf Poulsen as their forward. They do have some good players, of course they do, which is why their good football also allows them to compete with Bayern, but their squad doesn't come close to Bayern's level, the players are being elevated. Dani Olmo is good - Pogba and Bruno are better. Forsberg is good, Rashford is better etc. Yet they get further than us in Europe and are nipping at the heels of arguably the best team on the planet in Bayern in their respective league, all whilst also playing football that is more entertaining to watch than ours.

No you didn't concede that Sterling had improved. You said you wouldn't be surprised had Sterling not improved.



There is the quote for reference. Let's not pretend a player who under Pep, has over doubled his goal tally for the season hasn't improved.

No-one is saying KDB wasn't a great player before he was signed. Your question was what players had he improved and I gave the example of him turning a player who operated in a different role into the best CM on the planet. Of course KDB had his part to play in that - a huge one, but let's not pretend it's just a coincidence that these players who yes, as you say, were already great, play under Pep and go up even another level. Douglas Costa is another example of this - he played like a man possessed under Pep at Bayern and has been anonymous ever since. He improves offensive players incredibly. Sane is an amazing talent, not player. He is yet to come anywhere close to that season he actually played under Pep. Cancelo is playing the best football of his life. No-one is suggesting these aren't great players, the premise here is that Pep improves them.

Also, to answer your question, the reason why Pep doesn't spend on cheap players is the same reason clubs go for Pep in the first place - because he builds dominant teams who win trophies. Even before he completed his squad at City though, you could see the style being implemented, it was clear he only needed to improve the personnel to turn that great football into winning football.

Liverpool being dreadful is simply wrong. They have a higher xG than us and their expected points is right behind ours. I really wouldn't be surprised (assuming Klopp stays on), if this season is an anomaly for them. When you take into consideration that their squad has been decimated for large parts of the season - that I'd argue, is more a slight on us than it is on them. Klopp has proven already that when he has the players, his system can compete at the very top. Ole has so far proven that we still struggle to play football in congested areas, are slow and pedestrian in moving the ball and struggle to break down teams who don't give us a mile of space to operate in. If people were seeing signs of implementing a style like Klopp was at Liverpool, people wouldn't mind the constant SF eliminations and being so far from City, because they would have something to have hope in.

Gundogan isn't a deep sitting midfielder, no. Watching our static play and formation is in no way comparable to City's. Gundogan's best form this season has come as an advanced midfielder - a role KDB can also utilise. Rodri sits behind the creative players, with Zinchenko and Cancelo usually coming inside to support the passing lanes/provide defensive cover when in possession. McFred play as the 'two' for us, whereas Bruno plays further forward - it's more akin to the Gundogan/KDB role. So no, comparing McFred to players like Gundogan and KDB isn't like for like - they play completely different roles and have different expectations, mainly down to the formation and approach City employ. Rodri is comparable though, I'll give you that. That being said though, Ole has an opportunity to sign a DM and so far has not done so.

Also trying to down play his achievements due to his circumstances is hilarious. You claim it was 'MessiBarca' but Messi went from scoring 16 goals the prior season to 38 under Pep. The context here is missing. Yes, he has had better players. Yes, Ole has never had the honour being able to coach someone of Messi's talent, but even with the better squad and better players - Pep also competed against far, far greater competition than Ole did in Norway. He earned that right with his unrivalled success. To try and downplay his success as if it is in anyway even in the same universe as Ole's is fecking hilarious to me, not going to lie. Ole's career outside of Norway so far is a relegation in the EPL, a terrible run in the Championship which led to his sacking and so far approaching 3 years with a United team and looking no closer to winning a major trophy. LVG and Mourinho had won trophies in this time. I love Ole, but he is and never will be in the same universe as Pep. It's not like he is a newcomer, he has been coaching for not much less time than Pep has.

Leipzig have some good players. Leicester have some good players. Some better than us. Great argument right there

This is just like the whole Livepool 4th United 2nd debate where a certain set of fans simply refused to look at the quality of football deciding it was completely irrelevant and scoffing at things like fluid football and the potential of teams. It was obvious to many that it was Livepool who were emerging as the next potential title winner/challenger as it was visible in their football what Klopp was putting together even if they finished 4th.

 

[Counterfactual]

It needs to get more consistent and sustained, but we've had more than enough awesome spells and moments in games to satisfy the "occasionally scintillating" standard. If you're just gonna highlight "scintillating" that hardly seems like a good faith question now does it?

I just don't think the bar of "scintillating football" has been reached, and it's not a phrase I'd throw around lightly. But we have scored some cracking goals, so if that satisfies your definition, you're right.

 

[Womp]

Leipzig have some good players. Leicester have some good players. Some better than us. Great argument right there

This is just like the whole Livepool 4th United 2nd debate where a certain set of fans simply refused to look at the quality of football deciding it was completely irrelevant and scoffing at things like fluid football and the potential of teams. It was obvious to many that it was Livepool who were emerging as the next potential title winner/challenger as it was visible in their football what Klopp was putting together even if they finished 4th.

Yep. I think it's been made quite clear now that you need great players to win top trophies, but countless managers have shown you don't need a stacked squad to improve the collective and begin implementing a system. We've made this mistake before and unfortunately it looks like we will be making it again.

I really do think we will be regret letting Nagelsmann go elsewhere down the line, if we allow it to happen. What he is doing with that Leipzig team and better yet, the way they are doing it, is extremely impressive.

 

[calodo2003]

Probably worthwhile in here as well...

Inside Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's first 100 days as Manchester United manager
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...solskjaer-manchester-united-100-days-20229292

 

[Knux]

A second finish in the league and a Europa League title would be a season of progress at least. In fact it would be a pretty fantastic season with all things considered. Looking at the squad it’s clear that Ole needs backing from the club.

Just have a look at the squad and bench against Milan second leg. Their bench was arguably better than ours. I know injuries played a part of that but just shows the United squad isnt ready to compete on all fronts.

The talk of City buying Kane or Haaland and Chelsea with their spending Ole will need some WC players in the summer to compete next season.

 

[Olecurls99]

Is your argument actually that our squad needs to be as good as City's before we can judge Ole's abilities as a manager?

Of course great teams need to have great players. But the best managers tend to elevate both individuals and the collective of those individuals into a seamless machine.

Your posts above definitely seems to be inaccurately playing down the impact of a manager. I mean, Manchester United fans, of all of them, should understand that this fully considering our steep fall from grace ever since Sir Alex retired. See Simeone at Atletico, Conte at multiple clubs, Klopp at Dortmund, and many more. The former is on his way to a second La Liga title and being a regular feature in the CL often getting to the final stages, and he didn't have a squad like City's. Conte walks into clubs and nearly instantly brings in the excellence required to win titles. Even ignoring the top sides who win things you have so many examples of managers exceeding expectations in terms of both peformances and result.

And on those managers you touched upon, Klopp did absolutely transform Liverpool. They needed VVD to win titles? Of course they did. But they also identified him and improved him. Same with Fabinho. Everyone thought he was a good player but not that good. Further even before they added those players he managed to get them to play absolutely top class fluid attacking football which shows what he could do without spending that much. And that stylish and superb attacking football did not need VVD. This season Pep has not has produced record setting and title winning contributions from - Stones, Dias (cheaper than Maguire), kid Foden, written off Gundogan, no CF other than the not so special Jesus, much criticised Rodri, Zinchenko at LB and so on, without Aguero or KDb for the most part.

It would be nice if we were comparing like with like. I'm of the opinion that City have a far better squad than us and the comparisons between the managers are unfair because of it. If you think that's ridiculous well bully for you.

Trying to use Liverpool and Klopp as proof of the merits of your argument seems ridiculous to me. He had a system. They came 6th, 4th and 4th, I think. What a transformation!
I'm glad you were able to decide that they were already brilliant at that point but they weren't getting the results to prove that. Why wasn't their sexy system yielding better results? Why isn't it yielding better results now? Because this bunk that systems and coaches are more important than great players is just that. Bunk.

Ole will probably not get the players required to really challenge and people who never rated him will feel vindicated that he wasn't good enough. I, on the other hand, will wait for the day that we have a great squad. There aren't any Alex Fergusons around I'm afraid. We were incredibly lucky to have him. Now we'll have to win like everybody else. With a squad of the best players, or relying on the squad with the best players underperforming.

We got back ups last year. We need 2 first team signings this summer and we might challenge. And all the super sexy systems and wizard like coaching will be for nought.

You'll probably say it's because Ole improved as a coach, or that you didn't realise what a good coach he was before. But I'll know Amholgfdfrhh50k,
I'll know.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It would be nice if we were comparing like with like. I'm of the opinion that City have a far better squad than us and the comparisons between the managers are unfair because of it. If you think that's ridiculous well bully for you.

Trying to use Liverpool and Klopp as proof of the merits of your argument seems ridiculous to me. He had a system. They came 6th, 4th and 4th, I think. What a transformation!
I'm glad you were able to decide that they were already brilliant at that point but they weren't getting the results to prove that. Why wasn't their sexy system yielding better results? Why isn't it yielding better results now? Because this bunk that systems and coaches are more important than great players is just that. Bunk.

Ole will probably not get the players required to really challenge and people who never rated him will feel vindicated that he wasn't good enough. I, on the other hand, will wait for the day that we have a great squad. There aren't any Alex Fergusons around I'm afraid. We were incredibly lucky to have him. Now we'll have to win like everybody else. With a squad of the best players, or relying on the squad with the best players underperforming.

We got back ups last year. We need 2 first team signings this summer and we might challenge. And all the super sexy systems and wizard like coaching will be for nought.

You'll probably say it's because Ole improved as a coach, or that you didn't realise what a good coach he was before. But I'll know Amholgfdfrhh50k,
I'll know.

A bit of context on Klopp: he took over a-few months into the 15/16 season and finished, I believe 8th. Ole took over midway through the 18/19 season and finshed 7th. Also worth noting Klopp reached the EL Final the season he took over - but nothing can really be made of the 8th and 7th place finishes for obvious reasons.

After that Klopp finished as below:

16/17 - Points 76 GF 78 GA 48 - finished 4th
17/18 - Points 75 GF 84 GA 38 - finished 4th and made the CL Final
18/19 - Points 97 GF 89 GA 22 - finished 2nd and won the CL
19/20 - Points 99 GF 85 GA 33 - won the league
20/21 - unmitigated shit-show and can't see them winning the CL

Ole:

19/20 - Points 66 GF 66 GA 36
20/21 - Points 57 GF 56 GA 32 (currently) and may win EL

It's pretty obvious to me which manager looked the more promising after two years in charge - not to mention Klopp had a very clear and discernable style of play, which annoyingly was fantastic. There's a myth that Klopp was some bum before he signed VVD and Allison, but history will tell you differently. Furthermore, I wouldn't imagine the Liverpool fan base was divided on Klopp after 2-years in charge like our fans, which tells you he was making clear progress and had a distinct philosophy.

 

[Desert Eagle]

A bit of context on Klopp: he took over a-few months into the 15/16 season and finished, I believe 8th. Ole took over midway through the 18/19 season and finshed 7th. Also worth noting Klopp reached the EL Final the season he took over - but nothing can really be made of the 8th and 7th place finishes for obvious reasons.

After that Klopp finished as below:

16/17 - Points 76 GF 78 GA 48 - finished 4th
17/18 - Points 75 GF 84 GA 38 - finished 4th and made the CL Final
18/19 - Points 97 GF 89 GA 22 - finished 2nd and won the CL
19/20 - Points 99 GF 85 GA 33 - won the league
20/21 - unmitigated shit-show and can't see them winning the CL

Ole:

19/20 - Points 66 GF 66 GA 36
20/21 - Points 57 GF 56 GA 32 (currently) and may win EL

It's pretty obvious to me which manager looked the more promising after two years in charge - not to mention Klopp had a very clear and discernable style of play, which annoyingly was fantastic. There's a myth that Klopp was some bum before he signed VVD and Allison, but history will tell you differently. Furthermore, I wouldn't imagine the Liverpool fan base was divided on Klopp after 2-years in charge like our fans, which tells you he was making clear progress and had a distinct philosophy.

During 17/18 a case could be and was made by many united fans (myself included) that Klopp was too stubborn and wouldn't end up winning anything, that despite the obvious good football some x factor was missing and would hinder him. Mourinho who we had at the time was more succesful in england and europe. In some ways it's kind of the opposite with Ole, despite the football not really showing any signs of progression, some united fans feels he has this x-factor that will lead us back to winning ways.

 

[Robbie Boy]

During 17/18 a case could be and was made by many united fans (myself included) that Klopp was too stubborn and wouldn't end up winning anything, that despite the obvious good football some x factor was missing and would hinder him. Mourinho who we had at the time was more succesful in england and europe. In some ways it's kind of the opposite with Ole, despite the football not really showing any signs of progression, some united fans feels he has this x-factor that will lead us back to winning ways.

I think that's fair as he looked reluctant to step back from his gung-ho approach which was obviously hindering them defensively. There were legitimate reservations about him for a peroid of time but looking at the stats, he was making progress. Obviously VVD and Allison were vital parts of the jigsaw.

 

[Olecurls99]

A bit of context on Klopp: he took over a-few months into the 15/16 season and finished, I believe 8th. Ole took over midway through the 18/19 season and finshed 7th. Also worth noting Klopp reached the EL Final the season he took over - but nothing can really be made of the 8th and 7th place finishes for obvious reasons.

After that Klopp finished as below:

16/17 - Points 76 GF 78 GA 48 - finished 4th
17/18 - Points 75 GF 84 GA 38 - finished 4th and made the CL Final
18/19 - Points 97 GF 89 GA 22 - finished 2nd and won the CL
19/20 - Points 99 GF 85 GA 33 - won the league
20/21 - unmitigated shit-show and can't see them winning the CL

Ole:

19/20 - Points 66 GF 66 GA 36
20/21 - Points 57 GF 56 GA 32 (currently) and may win EL

It's pretty obvious to me which manager looked the more promising after two years in charge - not to mention Klopp had a very clear and discernable style of play, which annoyingly was fantastic. There's a myth that Klopp was some bum before he signed VVD and Allison, but history will tell you differently. Furthermore, I wouldn't imagine the Liverpool fan base was divided on Klopp after 2-years in charge like our fans, which tells you he was making clear progress and had a distinct philosophy.

So you've detailed your reasons for preferring Klopp over Ole.

He came 4th while Ole is 2nd in his second full year. Good point. I don't know how it's obvious that Klopp looked more promising based on that. 2nd is better than 4th yes. I'm sure there's loads of context but I definitely wouldn't lead with Klopp came 4th and Ole is coming 2nd so Klopp is better. It doesn't look good Robbie.

Then he had a style. Yep. A 4th place style. Style me arse. He had a 'I play Mane and Salah style'. Not many managers gonna put those 2 out and it's not gonna look good.

And then the Liverpool fans liked Klopp more than we like Ole. Marvelous.
Might be something to do with the Klopp media love ins. Why does fans liking a coach mean he has made clear progress and has a distinct philosophy?

 

[Robbie Boy]

So you've detailed your reasons for preferring Klopp over Ole.

He came 4th while Ole is 2nd in his second full year. Good point. I don't know how it's obvious that Klopp looked more promising based on that. 2nd is better than 4th yes. I'm sure there's loads of context but I definitely wouldn't lead with Klopp came 4th and Ole is coming 2nd so Klopp is better. It doesn't look good Robbie.

Then he had a style. Yep. A 4th place style. Style me arse. He had a 'I play Mane and Salah style'. Not many managers gonna put those 2 out and it's not gonna look good.

And then the Liverpool fans liked Klopp more than we like Ole. Marvelous.
Might be something to do with the Klopp media love ins. Why does fans liking a coach mean he has made clear progress and has a distinct philosophy?

I'm not detailing anything mate. Those are the stats.

 

[AgentSmith]

So you've detailed your reasons for preferring Klopp over Ole.

He came 4th while Ole is 2nd in his second full year. Good point. I don't know how it's obvious that Klopp looked more promising based on that. 2nd is better than 4th yes. I'm sure there's loads of context but I definitely wouldn't lead with Klopp came 4th and Ole is coming 2nd so Klopp is better. It doesn't look good Robbie.

Then he had a style. Yep. A 4th place style. Style me arse. He had a 'I play Mane and Salah style'. Not many managers gonna put those 2 out and it's not gonna look good.

And then the Liverpool fans liked Klopp more than we like Ole. Marvelous.
Might be something to do with the Klopp media love ins. Why does fans liking a coach mean he has made clear progress and has a distinct philosophy?

Klopp won the Champions League and finished with 97 points in the league the season after that.

Seems a little more comprehensive than ‘play Mane and Salah’.

 

[Olecurls99]

Klopp won the Champions League and finished with 97 points in the league the season after that.

Seems a little more comprehensive than ‘play Mane and Salah’.

Nope. You can add play Van Dijk and Allison too.

 

[AgentSmith]

Nope. You can add play Van Dijk and Allison too.

You make a lot of good points elsewhere which get ruined by taking a position only a troll would here.

 

[VP89]

So you've detailed your reasons for preferring Klopp over Ole.

He came 4th while Ole is 2nd in his second full year. Good point. I don't know how it's obvious that Klopp looked more promising based on that. 2nd is better than 4th yes. I'm sure there's loads of context but I definitely wouldn't lead with Klopp came 4th and Ole is coming 2nd so Klopp is better. It doesn't look good Robbie.

Then he had a style. Yep. A 4th place style. Style me arse. He had a 'I play Mane and Salah style'. Not many managers gonna put those 2 out and it's not gonna look good.

And then the Liverpool fans liked Klopp more than we like Ole. Marvelous.
Might be something to do with the Klopp media love ins. Why does fans liking a coach mean he has made clear progress and has a distinct philosophy?

This is such a daft post, comparing across seasons, ignoring money spent, ignoring managerial pedigree and ignoring playing styles.

Klopp walked in as a league winner in Bundasliga and reached the CL final with an underdog team. So there's pedigree. Then the year Klopp finished 4th he got 76 points, and it was his first full season. The year Ole finished 3rd he got 66 points and it was his first full season.

This is also why comparing across campaigns is an absolute wank point.

 

[Olecurls99]

This is such a daft post, comparing across seasons, ignoring money spent and ignoring playing styles.

The year Klopp finished 4th he got 76 points, and it was his first full season. The year Ole finished 3rd he got 66 points and it was his first full season.

This is why comparing across campaigns is an absolute wank point.

You're right. Klopp coming 4th is clearly better than Ole coming 2nd

 

[Olecurls99]

You make a lot of good points elsewhere which get ruined by taking a position only a troll would here.

You may be right. I'm firefighting on 4 fronts at this stage so I'm spread thin. Klopp has done a great job. I just value squads over coaches. I think Alex Ferguson is the only manager that could win the league with our lot and that's why I think the criticism of Ole can be over the top.