They are bottom because their squad is poor, so that much you are right. City won every game without De Byurne, thanks to their pattern of play. They don't rely on one individual player, however we would be screwed without Bruno. Of course they want better players, and they would improve with better players. Especially Brighton because they don't have a goalscorer. Why would they turn down Rashford? I have no idea what you mean there. How is it lazy? If anything, I think you are lazy, because you seem to watch games but don't take any philosophy in it. Am I right that you don't think that a coach has much influence on a team? The only reason UInited is better now than before, is because we have a slightly better squad than before. If you look at points each season, that hasn't been much improvement. However, if you watch us play, you actually can see how little development there has been. We are not good at defending, nor are we particularly good at attacking. We don't press well. We don't play out from the back in a comfortable way. That Leeds gets hammered isn't really an argument? They have a clear pattern of play and they are doing very well in the league? If anything, it strengthens my argument. If they had Steve Bruce as a manager, they would be in a certain relegation battle. United is overperforming according to xG, both for goals and for points. We are the most effective team in the league because we score goals out of nothing and yesterday was an excellent example of that, and the game before against WBA too. It is exactly the same argument people had with Mourinho, just because we came second, many here thought we would challenge but you could clearly see that it wouldn't hold. It's not so different now but on a smaller scale. That's our reality. We will never win anything of note with Ole.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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They are bottom because their squad is poor, so that much you are right. City won every game without De Byurne, thanks to their pattern of play. They don't rely on one individual player, however we would be screwed without Bruno. Of course they want better players, and they would improve with better players. Especially Brighton because they don't have a goalscorer. Why would they turn down Rashford? I have no idea what you mean there. How is it lazy? If anything, I think you are lazy, because you seem to watch games but don't take any philosophy in it. Am I right that you don't think that a coach has much influence on a team? The only reason UInited is better now than before, is because we have a slightly better squad than before. If you look at points each season, that hasn't been much improvement. However, if you watch us play, you actually can see how little development there has been. We are not good at defending, nor are we particularly good at attacking. We don't press well. We don't play out from the back in a comfortable way. That Leeds gets hammered isn't really an argument? They have a clear pattern of play and they are doing very well in the league? If anything, it strengthens my argument. If they had Steve Bruce as a manager, they would be in a certain relegation battle. United is overperforming according to xG, both for goals and for points. We are the most effective team in the league because we score goals out of nothing and yesterday was an excellent example of that, and the game before against WBA too. It is exactly the same argument people had with Mourinho, just because we came second, many here thought we would challenge but you could clearly see that it wouldn't hold. It's not so different now but on a smaller scale. That's our reality. We will never win anything of note with Ole.
I think the last two peformances typifies United under Ole. When we were in with a chance of actually winning or even competing for silverware, we cave under the pressure with some awful performances against Championship level teams. Now that the pressure is off again, we're back to playing decently well. That said, we do have a knack of making shit teams look so good.
I don't know what to make of Ole. Can he get us over "a" line when it matters? I want to say no.
I don't know what to make of Ole. Can he get us over "a" line when it matters? I want to say no.
My new favourite phrase, never existed Untill 2020 now can’t stop seeing it.As for our pressing, just because we don’t close down in the oppositions penalty area doesn’t mean we are no good at it, I think we leave the opposition defence come out and then spring traps and force errors to leave spaces in behind them. We’ve scored a few goals from this but I guess those goals go in the luck category
And those team doesn't bother to win like we do.
Let say if yesterday Newcastle United got draw it would call brilliant point for them but not for us.
I also have doubt for Ole but your argument is very strange at best.
Not sure us regularly being mediocre compares to city losing a single game
Liverpool are undoubtedly having a tough season but have also won the champions league and cl in recent seasons
The question for me is are we likely to get any closer to winning or at least competing for the league in the next couple of seasons. I don't think we are, certainly not under ole and I would expect to be back behind liverpool next season.
it might be funny, my point is that if i know the starter can make mistakes and still play would that motivate me. Henderson did a mistake in the game he played but did we give him a run of 5 games to show if he is up to it? Bailly might be injury proned but how many times did he play ahead of Lindeloef when both were fit and not in a cup game? he has been immense in some games this year. Martial being played ahead of Greenwood yesterday... based on performances?What?
Bailly is perma crocked and plays well at times. He's as mistake prone as any player we've ever had, even though his ceiling is higher than Lindelöfs.
DDG needs dropping, I agree, but do you rememeber the last time Hendo played in the PL? It didn't do him any favors. But who knows, maybe he just though "why bother, I won't cement my place anyway."
It was the correct decision in my opinion to not give Hendo a run of 5 games after the SHU game. Just as it is the right decision to drop De Gea now.
Bailly is injury prone and a costly mistake waiting to happen in basically every game. The same logic used in your argument can be used in regards to Bailly. How can he expect to start games, considering he's made as many mistakes as he has? For all his flaws, Lindelöf is quite consistently 6/10. I totally understand why Ole is reluctant to break up the Maguire - Lindelöf partnership, even though Bailly might deserve a run of a couple of games if he remains healthy and without costly mistakes. I agree it's time to give Bailly a go, if he is 100% fit, which he obviously wasn't for the Newcastle game, considering he just got back from injury.
I can't explain why Martial was played yesterday. He has been dropped already this season, and I'm 99% sure Cavani would have started if he was fit. I don't think Ole trusts Greenwood to play CF just yet, but I also don't understand how he could possibly be worse than Martial. If he fails, just bring Martial on after 60 minutes?
But I honestly think Ole has had enough of Martial as well, and that he will be dropped against Chelsea. He might play against La Real, considering we're basically through already (no jinx), but I think Ole has other plans for the game against the Oligarchs.
We are back to playing decently well? That performance against Newcastle was awful. For the first 45 minutes we had absolutely no idea how to create any sought of chance against them. Rashfords goal had nothing to do with tactics what so ever. Big Sam was tactically better.
We came out second half playing the same awful football against Newcastle at home. No tactical changes no subs, nothing. Counter attacking Newcastle at home...
Jame’s goal came out of nowhere after that Barcodes collapsed and we were much better. But up till then and for 70 minutes that’s was some of the worst we’ve played under Ole.
As for our pressing, just because we don’t close down in the oppositions penalty area doesn’t mean we are no good at it, I think we leave the opposition defence come out and then spring traps and force errors to leave spaces in behind them. We’ve scored a few goals from this but I guess those goals go in the luck category
Pattern of play, tactics, style.. it's all the same thing and surely we can all agree that it's not something new?
It’s been around for ages what are you on about.
I just hope you are right and he has enough of Martial... its painful watching him stand there with no desire and moody face.
My worry is that Ole is a bit too cautious, i mean Greenwood if you dont try him centrally how will he get used to it and be ready. how the 5 min Amad got would help him settle, we were 3 up give him 20 min to see how he does, yesterday 3 min for Shola looks to me like i gave you a debut thing i am curious to see if he will play again soon. Ole seems way too cautious to me.
I'm firmly in the Ole out "camp" after yesterday's lineup. He clearly lacks the ruthlessness needed to make us champions. Yesterday was a perfect opportunity to drop Martial and De Gea. Having said that, it wouldn't be terrible if he stayed over the summer if we qualify for the CL and we can't get Nagelsmann. Ole's transfers are much better than the short term ones Mourinho made and the flops under LVG and Moyes and I like what he's doing with the academy. I think we're more than a season off of challenging for the title anyway. Too bad we missed out on Tuchel, I rated him more than Nagelsmann even.
I disagree with the criticism that he should have played Amad and Shoretire the first time they travelled with the team. He clearly wants them to get used to a new environment first and only play them the second time. Ole seems to know what he's doing in that regard.
I disagree with the criticism that he should have played Amad and Shoretire the first time they travelled with the team. He clearly wants them to get used to a new environment first and only play them the second time. Ole seems to know what he's doing in that regard.
How long is ages?
In thirty years of football I’ve never seen patterns of play cried about so often. That’s my observation.
So we’ve got no tactics or style? Because I repeatedly see that we have no pattern of play
Doesn't 'patterns of play' specifically refer to prescribed pre-rehearsed moves as opposed to tactics or style?
Ok, with City it wasn't just one game was it.....they were in dire form at one stage this season, they lost 5-2 to Leicester, drew 1-1 with Leeds, drew 1-1 with West Ham, then drew 1-1 with Liverpool, then lost 2-0 to Spurs. That was awful form, they were about 9th or 10th. The season before, they were well off the pace all year. They failed miserably at a title race. Earlier this season, Liverpool were top of the league claiming they were going back to back, even after VVD and Gomez were injured. City transitioned with signings.
Liverpool have won the PL and CL in recent seasons, but they're evidently on a downward trajectory. The core of their squad is aged 28-34. We're evidently on an upward trajectory with a young squad, academy players and evidently we'll be going into the transfer market.
I understand why it's a debatable point, how far will we go under Ole. But I see absolutely no positive in sacking him. I'd understand if we were 6th-7th with no hope after 2 years, but he's literally improving us each year. 6th to 3rd, to 2nd, better players coming in, deadwood going out, promoting youth, building a team of coaches who are United though and through. We're lucky to finally be on the right path. Look at Spurs.... what Jose has done for them, yes Ole is not the best manager in world football, but he understands what United need and want, and he's building that brick by brick. Imagine if we won the league next year or the year after. Some fans would still want Ole out, they'd probably find an argument that the league was easier to win and Ole isn't good enough. The agendas are ridiculous.
We're evidently signing a CB this summer, we've been scouting the best all season. Apparently (via Andy Mitten) we've scouted the Seville lad 50 times this last 18 months. Wait till we sign a world class CB to go with Maguire, then lets see if we can bring a world class DM in, and possibly move Martial on for another striker - then the re-build will be almost complete. City were poor last season, they re-built - allow Ole to continue his work.
As for our pressing, just because we don’t close down in the oppositions penalty area doesn’t mean we are no good at it, I think we leave the opposition defence come out and then spring traps and force errors to leave spaces in behind them. We’ve scored a few goals from this but I guess those goals go in the luck category
Amazing. Some football fans can't see that we literally overload our left hand side, penetrate defences, press with pace, destroy teams on the counter attack, score goals, win penalties with quick, clever passing and feet. We also look for quick direct passes through the lines with McTomminay, Matic, Fred, Bruno, Pogba. We're learning and improving how to play with a proper CF, Cavani every week, he's scoring nearly every game. We're the highest scoring team in the Premier League.
Yet we have no "patterns of play".... what next twitterverse? Ole will be deemed a sh!t manager because he doesn't wear hipster hoodies.
City have the most expensive PL squad ever assembled, not to mention a team full of players that have won PL titles before, but yeah sure, if it wasn't for those little triangles they play they'd be clogging it up and Championship level no doubt. Absolutely nothing to do with player ability...
Tell me, where was this argument about philosophy and patterns of play 10 years ago? It's almost like it's become and new thing that's completely intangible and a lazy/easy way to criticise managers who people don't like. As myself and others have pointed out, what about the patterns of play that happened on the build-up to our goals? Just because the last person to receive the ball does something great doesn't mean everything before that action is pure luck. That's the individual simply flexing their ability to go past a man and make something happen, every top team in the world is reliant on that in their front line. It only stands out in our squad because outside of Rashford and Bruno we don't have many players that can do pure magic.
You've completely discounted the fact that squad harmony and other mental attributes play a huge part in performances. Look at West Ham, no *clear pattern of play, but yet they're all playing for each other, that's what a manager's job is, to get that reaction from the squad. Look at Tottenham for a polarising situation of a toxic atmosphere and poor results/performances.
Saying that we haven't improved and Solksjaer hasn't improved most of the playing squad at this point is about as short-sighted as it gets.
And by the way, all these teams that play with a clear pattern of play as you put it, only one of them is actually successful, the rest haven't won anything and won't win anything, but at least they play good football right? There's always that trophy at the end of the season. Moral victory is the most important thing as we all know...
We've lost 4 PL games in 39 matches. We're in 2nd place, got to another Semi Final in the league cup, in the Quarters of the FA Cup and look safely through in Europa.
It's just the usual muppets with an agenda against Ole who can't/won't see the progress the team is making. Continue the rebuild in the summer, at that point my expectation will be a proper title challenge. This whole process would have been far quicker had Woodward and the board backed Ole earlier down the line and allowed him more players in/out. But it is what it is.
You got to have balls to deny my argument with City and Liverpool then talk like Manchester United, with the highest wage bill in the world, are successful without winning anything, or being remotely close to winning anything! And did you really talk about tactics, pattern of play, being a new thing?! City wins, and Liverpool too, because they have the greatest managers with the best tactics. Of course they need great players, but they don't rely on individual players just like I said with De Bruyne. United does though, and would be fecked without Bruno. Ole has done some good things, but you have to do more than create a good atmosphere to be successful, that's why he never will be.
Not sure why I'm quoted I was just arguing semantics as I suspect some posters don't actually know what the phrase means.
Never use the word never in an argument mate, rule number one. My Mrs taught me that one. You don't know that he never will be. You're making assumptions because you evidently dislike Ole as a manager.
Why are Liverpool on their worse run of form since 1927? Where's their patterns of fecking play? Surely if they have 2-3 CB's injured, they can still execute their "patterns of play". They have patterns of play just like United have patterns of play - overloading the left wing, playing skilful, quick, short passing to create opportunities to score, to win penalties, we press from the front, with pace, we penetrate teams presses by playing intelligent, decisive passes through the lines, ask Matic about that, he did a few last night - Pogba has loads in his locker, so does Maguire, so does Bruno, so does Rashford. Sometimes we rely on world class talent to win us games, as do City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester, and every other top team across Europe. Sometimes we rely on luck when teams have a low block. Do you think City's game last night was won because of "patterns of chuffing play"? I'm pretty sure that Arsenal gave them a very good game, and City only scored a free header from a guy who's about 5 foot 8. That's not drilled into them by Pep, they get told not to cross high balls FFS. Thats an element of luck. Let this patterns of play bullsh!t lie will you. It's the biggest load of nonsense I've read on this forum.
You weren't quoted in vein, I just barged my way into your convo and felt you were due a quote as credit :-)
You weren't quoted in vein, I just barged my wa
Ah ok. No bother. Oh and I agree on the use of 'never'. It'll bite you in the ass
I’m agreeing with you.
City controlled the game from the first minute to the last minute, they are by far the best team in the country right now and that is obviously very much thanks to their coach. They created plenty, thanks to their style of play. It's actually laughable that you just throw "they have the best players" it makes me think that you never have watched them play. They are by far the most complex team in the league, and almost every move is a sign of their pattern. If you think that pattern of play is bullshit, then it's over for this discussion. The problem with Liverpool now is very much that they are broken down BECAUSE of their style. They have run out of ideas, and yes, they need to change their approach. And they probably will to next season. Manchester United almost certainly won't if Ole is still here. I will use the word never, because that is how far off Ole is from the best coaches. And you will see it time and time again. Now, I'm done here. Good evening.
Manchester United are poorly run, they've overpaid for mercenaries and then overpaid them once they arrived. That's got nothing to do with Pep throwing half a billion at a defence of his choosing, and you'll find that United have actually won trophies in the baron years post Fergie anyway, unlike the other teams you mentioned.
You put Klopp or Pep in charge of United and we wouldn't be much better off. You say we'd be fecked without Bruno and I agree, you know why? He's arguably the best midfielder in Europe. Barcelona are fecked without Messi too. The reason we struggle without him is that he's head and shoulders better than 95% of our squad and the players we can bring in when he's out aren't good enough for a team with title ambitions. It doesn't matter who the manager is when the only replacement you've got for the best midfielder in Europe is a Dutch kid who floats around the pitch playing the ball square 9 times out of 10.
On top of that, Liverpool are looking like they might equal or better the worst title defence ever, why? Because they're missing one player, Van Dyke. What about their patterns of play though? 1 goal in 4 games from the front three, 1 goal at Anfield this calendar year. City struggled at the start of the season, where was the patterns of play argument then?
And the last part bolded, you should probably go back and study some of the Fergie years to see that this is a talent that all great managers have. Without it, it doesn't matter how much you know or understand tactics. For a live example of something going to shit really fast, keep an eye on Tuchel at Chelsea.
I guess VdB, Telles and Henderson were never decent, under that statement its a stick to hit Ole with. Why spent 60M on players who aren't not only good enough but not even decent? Why recall a keeper and give him top wages if he's not even decent?
Even if we signed no one besides Matic we have a young squad who are entering their prime years. We should be improving in style and performances, that doesn't seem to be the case and its what got many of us worried.
Mentality comes first. NOT performances. People need to understand the mentality/ego etc is the foundation and comes first and it takes time.
Sorry mate but I think that's absolutely non sense. How do you rate mentality and ego?
Wow. You alright, mate? How is the blood pressure?
VDB and Telles come from inferior leagues and absolutely no one was stating that they would come in and set the world alight, they were always back up to improve our depth. Same for Henderson, it's better depth to create competition to improve consistency in the first 11. No one we signed outside of Cavani this summer was an improvement on what we already have in the starting 11, so yes, they are decent, but all they're there for is to get better performances from the players ahead of them or fill in when performances from the first 11 dip.
I think Henderson and Cavani were brought as squad options, Telles and VdB came to challenge for a starting place. They not getting it is doesn't change that fact.
So if I understand you correctly what youre saying is that because none of the players we bought were from an equal league or starters then its justificable to stagnate?
I agree with the first line in bold, they were brought in to do that but have struggled to adjust to the demand it seems. Perhaps we'll see more of them next season, I'm hoping for a Fred like resurgence once they realise it isn't working out for them and it's now or never at the top level.
I'm saying the opposite. The players we brought in this summer was mostly for depth, but Cavani is better than Martial and has rightly started instead. We cannot have another summer where we improve our bench instead of the first 11. There are quite a few players in the team that shouldn't play anywhere near as much as they do but we don't have better options.
I've never been a fan of buying depth unless they're under 23. We should be buying Sancho, Haaland, or Grealish and benching the likes of Martial, Fred/McTomminay or god forbid, finally filling the RW position.
I understand that last summer was probably an anomaly with covid and whatnot, but we really can't afford to stagnate any further than we already have. This team needs breaking up and rebuilding now before the likes of Bruno start to think about moving on instead.
This is the thing that bothers me too. If it occurs we'll end up caught in a vicious cycle.
Exactly. 4 losses over 39 games is incredibly good, for a team that supposedly relies on "individual brilliance". Get in another top player, and we start converting these draws to wins which will make us actual title challengers.
Then there is the 4 SF argument which is an incredibly stupid argument. Hell, reaching Semis of every competition is a sign of progress - how many teams have reached 4 (potentially 5/6) semis in 2 seasons? Even our finest sides faltered sometimes
Someone suggested in another post that the reason he is still playing De Gea & Lindelof is because he is worried that dropping them would cause disharmony amongst the squad, maybe there is some truth in that along with in De Gea's case wanting to ensure we still get value for him. I think Tony is a different situation because if Eddy hadn't been injured then he would have been on the bench yesterday.
Yeah, I quoted you in just to include you after I waded in mid convo to your conversation :-) It's good to have some wise fans on here.
I missunderstood you completely then, I agree we have way too many squad (quality) players in the team specially in midfield and just as you I think, bar some exceptions, squad players should never be stagnated players that are happy to have a squad role. They must be either promising youngsters breaking through or made players that can take the starting place if the starter level drops.
Unfortunately for us I don't think we have the financial muscle to buy the players you mention. I would focus on bringing at least one of them and a couple of promising young ones. I think at this stage its better to get a big signing/automatic starter rather than several "medium" ones.
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