Because when Ole took over we were in a similar position to Liverpool when Klopp took over, maybe?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Yeah, i never said that.
Exactly. It's pretty criminal we've didn't get RW and DM.
Are we really going to compare Klopp one of the best managers in football now to a novice level one? This comparison is not going to help his case, it will only embarrass him and his fans. He should be compared to Lampard and that level only.
My only concern re the DM was whether there was anyone around who had the requisite quality, but in principle I somewhat agree. However, VdB was still needed as outside of Bruno we had no one who had a clue on how to create chances, and we likely factored in Pogba leaving which ultimately didn't happen. Even still, VdB is a very good addition to the squad and will likely earn a regular starting place in the near future.
So what was your point then?
I agree that Donny is a good addition and he will get games despite the apparent hysteria over him being eased in.
I just think DM was a lot more pressing. Maybe there wasn't anyone available but we weren't even linked with anyone which, worryingly, suggests it wasn't an area we were looking to strengthen.
A top manager turns those players into disciplined midfielders.
We've seen how Pogba played for Deschamps and Allegri & Conte, Bruno also plays deeper in a midfield 3 for Portugal.
At United, under Ole, both players look somewhat directionless on the pitch and there's little cohesion on, and particularly off, the ball.
To me, it's a coaching issue, not a personnel one.
My point was that some of you constantly defend Ole with Klopp and Fergie examples. It is cherry picking. Those two got time so Ole must too. There are dozens and dozens other examples which can be used. Good and bad. I want him out but i have never said that he deserves sacking just because he didn't do Conte or Ranieri.
Lets just look at what Ole is doing so far. And nothing else. It doesn't matter what Klopp did, Conte did or Pep did.
What did he get before? Tell me how much Klopp spent before he got them playing superb attacking football. They finished 3rd but you could see the progress they were clearly making.
No, because he isn't someone who has done feck all the top level before this season.
No because they were actually brilliant. Using one's eyes helps to figure this stuff out rather than trying to use a logic that fits with ones view.
It does mean something. But it's nullified by the poor peformances before and after.Yeah, it's not like we outperformed every team (including Klopp's Liverpool) on every metric from January to July or anything...
That Chelsea and Leicester fecked it up is undeniable, but what also shouldn't be denied is that we were also pretty fecking good during that period to reel in the 10 or so points they had on us in the first place.
Your seemingly irrational issue with a club legend being our manager is clouding your judgement.
Wrong. The difference is that I actually don't care about him being a "club legend" and believe his actual abilities as a manager are what matter. It's people who care deeply about Ole, the old ways, patience at the expense of quality etc that are clouding their judgment with a lack of rational.
I think we thought that Matic would have enough to cover it for this season and then slowly start to phase him out. I wonder if something has happened after he signed that contract as he's been in and out of the team ever since.
Also, last season we were much, much more solid and didn't give up anywhere near as many chances as we have done at times this season - a large part of that was due to Matic, as well as Fred and McTominay at certain points. I think Pogba's return has muddied the waters a little as up until then, we seemed to have got the balance just right with Matic and Fred/McTominay in the double pivot and Bruno ahead of them, as the workrates of Bruno, Fred/McTominay compensated for Matic's lack of legs.
Maybe they also thought that while the DM was an issue, it wasn't as pressing an issue as getting the Grealish/VdB player to help us unlock tight games?
Who knows, we just have to make do as best we can with the players we have available. Here's hoping it goes well. On the bright side, our midfield options last year looked a hell of a lot worse than they do this time round
Well, I'll give it a go;
- We don't quite have the right #6. Fred, Scott, and Matic all close but not ideal for various reasons currently.
- City are generally much more possession orientated. We play a far riskier game. Attack, lose the ball? No problem, try again. Like it or not, with Bruno, this is the way it is. With Pogba it would be much worse, though the rewards may seem great.
- We're better with two back there, to split the pitch and help on the flanks. We don't have players particularly effective at doing it higher up for whatever reasons.
- Just because it looks like 4231 on paper doesn't mean it hasn't already been tried in some form, many times, when we're on the ball. The fact is, that unless we completely change the way we play, in either formation (4231/4123) all the midfielders need a very high workrate. Is that PP?
I agree, lets look at Ole for the job he is doing at Manutd. I am not saying he is special or the best manager.
I am backing him but I am not delusional either to think he has a free pass either. He needs to close the gap on the top to less than 10 points or else its a failure.
Have to agree with you with regards to Klopp, and I think the same was clear in Pep’s first season at City. None of them won anything (?) but their influence on their teams were undeniable. I haven’t seen anything close to that pattern our authority from Ole on our team.
I don’t think he’s the worst PL manager or anything, but he’s not top 3 in the PL even. I think we can win the CL under Ole, with more class players and a little luck, never the PL though. That tells me a story of what we’re lacking in that department.
Before the run, I agree it wasn't good enough. But after the run? We've lost 4 games in 33. And if you haven't noticed, every other team around us is in patchy form as well. It's not like we're in danger of being cut adrift, so why the hysterics?
The problem is that some of you see the notion of us being ambitious football that should have a top class manager as "hysterics". We've gotten so acclimatized to this whole "4th place/EL/FA cup/Big name signing PR" cycle that the idea of there being a high bar has disappeared.
Our first half of last season was appalling, second half was great. And we've started this season in last season's first half's vein. There is no hysteria apart from getting the feeling that Ole isn't of the level we need, and judging his time at United to be so-so (mixed bag of good and bad). He did meet the bare minimum expectation last year but he also hasn't , as per me, shown true quality as a manager.
When did Klopp finish 3rd?
He spent £228m the season they got into the CL final.
It was 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 1st.
For Ole, it's currently 6th, 3rd.
Let's see if we can keep being 3rd or 2nd this year. And yes, I know the table, but the gap is only 6 pts with the top, and we have a game in hand. We win it, we're trailing by 3 pts.
It's not about discipline, it's about the comparative skillset of the players.
Neither Pogba or Bruno have the dribbling skills or ability to play in small spaces like Silva, neither carry the ball as well as Silva or KDB (Pogba is close but infrequent), and neither keep possession as well as the City pair, which means less cover required behind them and the team as whole can play further up the pitch and condense any spaces.
Our midfield is wide open even with Pogba playing in the double pivot. Pushing him further forward next to Bruno would make it even worse. I wouldn't be averse to seeing them swap roles though. Bruno has more energy and is better defensively, but then we are back to making concession just to fit Pogba in.
I do think they are working with Pogba on that. You can see that when he only plays 25/30mn, he's much more intense and trail back defensively. It means that until now, his fitness didn't allow him to do that full match. When it builds up, we might see a much more interesting Pogba because he will provide us the ability to not lose the ball and launch attacks while he would also cover during defensive phases.
Bruno needs to be up there. He provides fantastic verticality for us and that's what we want. He seems more "intense" during defensive phases but I think it simply means he runs a lot. However, he might be wasted behind because his passing is less accurate than Pogba, especially long ones. It's better to use him as a press trigger man and keep trying to break the lines as much as possible.
Exactly, the table right now can can change with one result so lets keep calm, get out this tough run of fixtures and see where we are at? Build on that after.
We lost to Crystal Palace and it was our first game in the league with the worst preparation.
We lost to spurs whilst playing 10 men for most of the game.
We drew against Chelsea, I wanted to win but it’s not the end of the world.
Analysing and criticising a team at this stage is futile. We will get better, let’s see how we are shaping up come January.
We lost to spurs whilst playing 10 men for most of the game.
We drew against Chelsea, I wanted to win but it’s not the end of the world.
Analysing and criticising a team at this stage is futile. We will get better, let’s see how we are shaping up come January.
I'd like to see him rotate the squad a bit more and rest bruno and rashford as we've got a gruelling schedule ahead. But, I doubt he'll do that, he just loves running his best players into the ground.
I think we thought that Matic would have enough to cover it for this season and then slowly start to phase him out. I wonder if something has happened after he signed that contract as he's been in and out of the team ever since.
Also, last season we were much, much more solid and didn't give up anywhere near as many chances as we have done at times this season - a large part of that was due to Matic, as well as Fred and McTominay at certain points. I think Pogba's return has muddied the waters a little as up until then, we seemed to have got the balance just right with Matic and Fred/McTominay in the double pivot and Bruno ahead of them, as the workrates of Bruno, Fred/McTominay compensated for Matic's lack of legs.
Maybe they also thought that while the DM was an issue, it wasn't as pressing an issue as getting the Grealish/VdB player to help us unlock tight games?
Who knows, we just have to make do as best we can with the players we have available. Here's hoping it goes well. On the bright side, our midfield options last year looked a hell of a lot worse than they do this time round
Matic was never going to be able to do that for a while season so they obviously think Fred/McT can do it which I'm not convinced about.
On Pogba the balance seemed fine when he came in and some of our best performances were with him and Matic. Everyone had a terrible start and I think Pogba/Matic seem to have got the brunt end of it. I think we'll see them starting again in the coming weeks but totally agree we have a lot more options now than the start of last season.
It will be interesting to see what he goes with tomorrow as he will need to freshen up the midfield.
It's a timely and apt fear for sure. We appear in a better position with the squad now, but there are some issues in midfield in regards to intensity. At least with this particular apprehension, we're bang on the cusp of seeing how it plays out.
Yes, I would like to see more rotation with the midfield and full back positions as : a) we have more depth in those positions now with atleast 2 players per position and b) these players run the most and are most likely to tire out.
Before Pep arrived, it was difficult to see how D.Silva and KDB would work together. Pellegrini preferred a Fernandinho/Fernando pivot for that reason.
It was Pep's coaching that got it to work, and I'm confident a top manager could do the same for us, perhaps with a few tweaks.
As long as there is a clear system and tactical instruction, you can accommodate multiple attacking midfield players in the starting XI.
Pep also played with Gundogan, B.Silva, Foden and Yaya in those positions.
He didn't want Salah. He was bought above his head and worked out. Mane was bought before CL qualification for 30million. After qualifying they only invested 70 odd million in the Summer on Salah (who he did not want), Oxlade a squad player for 30 odd million and Robbo (who was like 5 quid). You lot would be crying saying "Ole wasn't backed" because we didn't sign £80million wingers. Then in January with Coutinho going the other way, they were able to sign VVD. The main difference is they are able to shift players in order to bring players in which is why their net is low. We have struggled to do so and simply hoard our reserves. Maybe we should of sold Pogba for 80million rather than keeping him and VDB on the bench just to play McTom and Fred? Anyways it is kinder pointless looking at the current transfer window during a pandemic as this is clearly not the most productive window with clubs worried about the future, so its best to see what the deal is once things get back to normality and the money goes back to its previous levels.
Close to £360million to build a title challenging side (not including net). Ole is at approx £280 million invested (again not net). Klopp didn't buy them during a pandemic when clubs have lost millions in revenue and fans can't even go to games.
There are clubs worried about being around post Christmas and United fans are vexed that we didn't sign an £80million winger a £120million winger and a CB for £50million during a global pandemic, where everyone is experiencing financial losses and staff are losing jobs
I agree with this. We cannot always go for the "break the bank player" who is tied into a long contract. There should be a shortlist in each position. But since last Summer our targets seemed to be Maguire 80m, AWB 50m, Bruno 63m, James 5 quid, Grealish 80m, Sancho 120m, Upermecano 50m. It just looks like a galatico shortlist of the most expensive players in each position with us constantly having to break British transfer records.
He didnt want Salah but it was a player in a position that Klopp wanted addressing right? Ole wanted the right wing addressed for a while and we cant sign anyone.
The reason I say Klopp was backed is he was backed for 3 consecutive windows. Ole got backed in his first window then this window happened.
As a football club, we cannot continue to half back managers, we done it with Jose and LVG and are doing the same with Ole.
Fabrizio came out and said in a non covid world Pogba was gone, which I can believe because last summer it was reported Bruno is a pogba replacement.
Like I said, backing is not about money spent, its whether you deliver the players required in positions.
Klopp had first choice of VVD - got him
Klopp wanted Fabinho - got him
Klopp wanted Allison - got him
Klopp wanted Fekir - Didn't deliver
Absolutely. Let's imagine Solskajer got the targets he wanted this summer, does Sancho and Grealish not immediately put us in a much stronger position this season? We're happy we did business this window of course but we only bought backup, we didn't strengthen the first 11.
Klopp asked for and got two £70m players.
We signed 2 RW this Summer. One last Summer (Dan James). Why did we buy VDB first? Anyways you are probably right about Pogba.
Ole wanted a LB - Got one
wanted another CF - Got one
wanted a midfielder - got one
wanted RW - got 2
we cannot pretend that we are going to fill 8 positions in one window
And then basically stopped asking for players for a few windows?
You absolutely have to take into account that without Barcelona paying stupid money for Coutinho, he wasn't getting VVD and Alisson.
All fair points but why not buy a mobile DM instead of spunking £80mil on a CB that needs 2 DMs to cover him?
Also your assertion it’ll work better with DVdB than Pogba, why so? He’s had a few cameos in the League & played decently in a cup game. . .
Pogba has won quite a few trophies in a 3 man midfield & playing Bruno as a 10 can isolate him/doesn’t make the most of his all round game.
To not try a 3 with 1 DM because we think it won’t work & continue with a 4-2-3-1 that doesn’t work is foolhardy. I doubt Pogba is the answer long term but the dross on the ball that is Fred & McAverage isn’t getting us much further.
Spot.On.
We weren’t spending £200mil. . .
Targets may as well have been Messi, Van Dijk & de Bruyne if we’re using ‘he didn’t get his targets’ as an excuse.
I can accept not getting one being an issue, as I think we should have made a major statement in the market but there’s no point rolling out a list of the best young English talent & wondering why the club won’t spend a near quarter billion all in on 2 of them. This isn’t Football Manager, OgS got his marquee signings last summer - ones as immobile as they come at his position whilst the other has a panic attack once they cross the halfway line.
I’d like to have seen OgS backed more but the answer can’t always be ‘he didn’t get his near £100mil target’ so he can’t be blamed.
And their lies the problem.
Fans want a title challenge based on what you said above.. You claim Ole was backed in this summer because of the players you have listed.
Our priority was RW, CB, CM
This is the difference between our fans who expect a title challenge based on "backing" compared to what backing looks like.
Klopp got a player he doesnt want - the player in 2 seasons before joining liverpool got 76 goals in the 2 seasons before. We got 3 RW who didn't even have 76 first team appearances combined.
We got a CF who was on his way to retirement, whilst other managers are getting players who have just come off a brilliant season.
That is the difference, now if you telling me getting one 18 year old winger and 17 year old who is to join in January is backing then I do not want to discuss this further.
You clearly have made your mind up that Ole out regardless, wanting him to challenge for a title and giving him championship standard players.
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