Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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hungrywing said:
This is what @noodlehair and others had been pointing out. Although I think it was just for one match that it was this extreme.
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The third picture in that tweet sums up why it doesn't work. It's not much of a "diamond"...all you have to do is mark Pogba and there is no forward pass available. Which is what happened against Southampton and West Ham.

I also don't think that part is particularly tactical as it'd be a stupid tactic for the same reason. I think it has more to do with Matic being too slow to cope with an opposition midfield pressing high....Pogba isn't exactly great at dealing with it himself so leaving him there on his own is a terrible idea.

Bruno pushing higher up does make sense but only when we are able to play the ball into his feet. Worked very well against the lesser sides but against the half decent ones he either didn't get the ball or had to drop back.

Still think the midfield needs work personally. Pogba is as inconsistent as ever and Matic for me is FAR too laboured and shouldn't be part of our first team. He's suited to certain games. Pogba you can still make the argument has the quality to win a game so unless he starts playing like a playground footballer again I'd still pick him. I'd give McTominay a run...we've seen both him and Fred play well when given a run of games but both were poor tonight and look way short of sharpness.

I don't think we win the Europa League with Matic and Pogba as a midfield two though. Might work well against a team like Copenhagen but the likes of Wolves would have a field day with that if they were on form. Just put a man on Pogba and let someone like Traore run round Matic/Maguire when we inevitably get caught in our own half.
 
noodlehair said:
The third picture in that tweet sums up why it doesn't work. It's not much of a "diamond"...all you have to do is mark Pogba and there is no forward pass available. Which is what happened against Southampton and West Ham.

I also don't think that part is particularly tactical as it'd be a stupid tactic for the same reason. I think it has more to do with Matic being too slow to cope with an opposition midfield pressing high....Pogba isn't exactly great at dealing with it himself so leaving him there on his own is a terrible idea.

Bruno pushing higher up does make sense but only when we are able to play the ball into his feet. Worked very well against the lesser sides but against the half decent ones he either didn't get the ball or had to drop back.

Still think the midfield needs work personally. Pogba is as inconsistent as ever and Matic for me is FAR too laboured and shouldn't be part of our first team. He's suited to certain games. Pogba you can still make the argument has the quality to win a game so unless he starts playing like a playground footballer again I'd still pick him. I'd give McTominay a run...we've seen both him and Fred play well when given a run of games but both were poor tonight and look way short of sharpness.

I don't think we win the Europa League with Matic and Pogba as a midfield two though. Might work well against a team like Copenhagen but the likes of Wolves would have a field day with that if they were on form. Just put a man on Pogba and let someone like Traore run round Matic/Maguire when we inevitably get caught in our own half.
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Yeah, I don't think anyone would debate this is a scheme to accommodate Matic and our slow CBs. I guess it does indicate that the coaching staff see Matic is less-than-optimal. Might also indicate that he's not a priority upgrade this window and we're looking to play this way for another season.

Regarding Pogba's inconsistency: I understand managers looking at his attributes and wanting him to turn into this beastly ball-carrying deep-lying midfielder that the opposition bounces off of and who can shuttle the ball upfield and dispense killer-passes himself. But like you and everyone points out, he keeps having brainfarts there and I think that's because it's not his natural/preferred role. To me it looks like a born attacking-minded player given that possession/defensive responsibility. I think his brain is wired for I-want-to-score-or-assist-or-dribble-and-draw-defenders-and-lay-it-off-every-time-I-have-the-ball.

For me, we haven't really seen even one attempt at the oft-mentioned single-pivot Matic with Pogba and Bruno ahead on the left and right respectively. Maybe it's glaringly obvious to people with decades more higher-level football knowledge but Matic isn't THAT slow. And such a scheme would force one more opposition player ten to fifteen yards deeper into their own half.

Over the course of a game, you'd think we'd rather have Pogba and Bruno in more average advanced positions than AWB and Shaw. Move Matic a bit more where Pogba is now, have AWB and Shaw tuck in a tad bit more and drop a tad deeper whenever the other is far up the wing, let Pogba/Bruno create the overloads. I get that they're pushing the players with the recovery pace upfield but I just wish we'd try it.

Against Wolves what would you think of McTominay man-marking Traore on defense?
 
I really hope Ole goes back to a 3 man midfield soon.

I just think it'd suit our team the best. That picture from the last page isn't a shining light on our coaching staff at all. That type of structure looks terrible.

We really need a mobile and able passer as a holding midfielder.
 
#07 said:
The thing I said I want to see from our full backs was:



I am not sure why you think only top six teams would have players capable of this.

Lucas Digne, who doesn't play for a top six team, made seven assists this past season. He made 2.1 key passes per game, 2.1 crosses per game and 1.8 long balls per game (link).

Ryan Bertrand, who doesn't play for a top six team, got an assist this past season. He made 0.9 key passes per game, 1.1. crosses per game and 1.3 long balls per game (link).

Patrick Van Aanholt, who doesn't play for a top six team, got two assists this past season. He made 1.1 key passes per game, 1.1. crosses per game and 1 long ball per game (link).

Aaron Cresswell, who doesn't play for a top six team, admittedly got no assists this past season. However, he made 0.8 key passes per game, 0.8 crosses per game and 2.2 long balls per game (link).

Matt Targett, who doesn't play for a top six team, got two assists this past season. He made 1 key pass per game, 0.8 key passes per game and 1.8 long balls per game (link).

Charlie Taylor, who doesn't play for a top six team, got an assist this past season. He made 0.5 key passes per game, 0.8 crosses per game and 1.4 long balls per game (link).

Now, by comparison, Shaw got an assist this past season, averages a key pass per game, 0.4 crosses per game and 0.8 long balls per game (link).

Wan-Bissaka actually has four assists. However, he averages 0.8 key passes per game, 0.4 crosses per game and 1 long ball per game. So he has four assists off, what I consider to be, a substandard level of average attacking involvements. Imagine, for example, he crossed as much per game as some of the other players listed above? Imagine he played as many direct balls forward for the likes of Martial and Rashford to run on to? Don't you think those four assists could easily become six or eight assists, especially given how much space Wan-Bissaka tends to get out wide only to turn backwards?

As I said before, I am not expecting our full backs to rival Roberto Carlos and Cafu. I'm expecting them to be able to do what the likes of Bertrand and Van Aanholt give. For Man Utd that should not be too much. They have gotten better as the season has progressed but they could give much, much, much more.
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Great post. Taught me something.
 
Web of Bissaka said:
Eh? It's as if we only play that way since this restart.

No! We've been doing that since the season start with this 4231 new system. The only difference is both Matic and Bruno made it looks good. Bruno freely dropping to CM alongside one of the two CMs also made the system more efficient.

1. Why only to the "left"?
Did the writer seriously watch our games.. really now... Matic, Fred and McTominay have been slotting into any of the 3 slots at the back next to the two CBs depending on different situations. We do this ever since the start of the season.
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I think this has to do with us not being able to develop the right side the way we want. Without Shaw, we don't have anyone who can even pass with a left foot with an angle to launch the RW, while we can do that for the LW. Also, Bruno naturally drifts more on the left because he can combine with Rashford and Shaw. On the right, AWB and Greenwood are both not very good at progressing and escaping pressing. I think there was an analysis about that tendency for the left I found interesting.

 
Mainoldo said:
This is actually boring now. I can’t believe the blind faith that keeps persisting. How many times are we just going to blame players for not being up to the task? I mean it was Lask.
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It was a dead rubber. The only thing that mattered was getting through with no injuries, and with squad players getting time.
 
Gasolin said:
I think this has to do with us not being able to develop the right side the way we want. Without Shaw, we don't have anyone who can even pass with a left foot with an angle to launch the RW, while we can do that for the LW. Also, Bruno naturally drifts more on the left because he can combine with Rashford and Shaw. On the right, AWB and Greenwood are both not very good at progressing and escaping pressing. I think there was an analysis about that tendency for the left I found interesting.

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This shows why Sancho will be a game changer for this side.
 
This thread is hilarious. So, now, our midfield shape isn't good enough, and we can only win that way against the bad teams? Despite the run we've been on since the restart.

I wonder, was it the same people who were complaining we could only win one way, earlier in the thread, which was to counter attack the good teams who left us space? That we couldn't beat the low block. Now we can, apparently THAT'S the only thing we can beat.

Ever think that maybe people over think these things?

Or that maybe people just want to find fault, ANY fault, with ole? Seems that way at times.
 
hungrywing said:
Yeah, I don't think anyone would debate this is a scheme to accommodate Matic and our slow CBs. I guess it does indicate that the coaching staff see Matic is less-than-optimal. Might also indicate that he's not a priority upgrade this window and we're looking to play this way for another season.

Regarding Pogba's inconsistency: I understand managers looking at his attributes and wanting him to turn into this beastly ball-carrying deep-lying midfielder that the opposition bounces off of and who can shuttle the ball upfield and dispense killer-passes himself. But like you and everyone points out, he keeps having brainfarts there and I think that's because it's not his natural/preferred role. To me it looks like a born attacking-minded player given that possession/defensive responsibility. I think his brain is wired for I-want-to-score-or-assist-or-dribble-and-draw-defenders-and-lay-it-off-every-time-I-have-the-ball.

For me, we haven't really seen even one attempt at the oft-mentioned single-pivot Matic with Pogba and Bruno ahead on the left and right respectively. Maybe it's glaringly obvious to people with decades more higher-level football knowledge but Matic isn't THAT slow. And such a scheme would force one more opposition player ten to fifteen yards deeper into their own half.

Over the course of a game, you'd think we'd rather have Pogba and Bruno in more average advanced positions than AWB and Shaw. Move Matic a bit more where Pogba is now, have AWB and Shaw tuck in a tad bit more and drop a tad deeper whenever the other is far up the wing, let Pogba/Bruno create the overloads. I get that they're pushing the players with the recovery pace upfield but I just wish we'd try it.

Against Wolves what would you think of McTominay man-marking Traore on defense?
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Makes too much sense. I mean both full backs are defensive minded anyway so it would make sense to exploit Pogba’s and Bruno’s offensive attributes and have the full backs be Matić‘s midfield support. It will never happen though. We will continue to put square pegs in round holes.
 
dirkey said:
It was a dead rubber. The only thing that mattered was getting through with no injuries, and with squad players getting time.
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I joked it was a dead rubber game. But still doesn’t mean we have to play rubbish. We just don’t play good football.
 
Mainoldo said:
I joked it was a dead rubber game. But still doesn’t mean we have to play rubbish. We just don’t play good football.
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It's pretty rare that a team rests entire starting line up, bar 1,and gets a free flowing amazing performance. You're asking for too much. Team was very exciting up until they got jaded a few weeks ago.

People want too much too soon. Short term world we live in.
 
Mainoldo said:
This is actually boring now. I can’t believe the blind faith that keeps persisting. How many times are we just going to blame players for not being up to the task? I mean it was Lask.
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Did you even watch the game? Mata missed an easy square pass, James as well. Maguire should have scored off the header and martial should have scored at the end there. You can add Ighalo's chance as well that should have ended with a goal. Had we played even a slightly stronger XI, the scoreline would have looked quite different.
 
dirkey said:
It's pretty rare that a team rests entire starting line up, bar 1,and gets a free flowing amazing performance. You're asking for too much. Team was very exciting up until they got jaded a few weeks ago.

People want too much too soon. Short term world we live in.
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True especially if your playing a mix of youth team players with no experience. But these are all seasoned individuals. I don’t think it’s that rare at all. Not against a team the quality of lask. I think the question should be are these players incapable of playing good football. If the answer is yes then so be it. If its no, clearly there is an issue there.
 
Mainoldo said:
This is actually boring now. I can’t believe the blind faith that keeps persisting. How many times are we just going to blame players for not being up to the task? I mean it was Lask.
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I see the position of the Ole out brigade is deeply entrenched.
 
Mainoldo said:
True especially if your playing a mix of youth team players with no experience. But these are all seasoned individuals. I don’t think it’s that rare at all. Not against a team the quality of lask. I think the question should be are these players incapable of playing good football. If the answer is yes then so be it. If its no, clearly there is an issue there.
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They are. But they're all out of match fitness. Even the best teams take time to find their stride, get used to playing together so that they know the runs each other will make etc.

Honestly, they might well have been told to just keep it tidy. There was absolutely no need for them to bust a gut.

People are really reading too much into what was basically a pre season friendly.
 
We've just finished 3rd, are in the quarter finals of the Europa League and the Ole Out Brigade STILL aren't happy.

Back in November/December if you'd had told them the above, they'd have bitten your hand off.

Now we have it. It's STILL not good enough for them.

Can anyone be happy on this site?
 
The match day thread last night was hilarious. The amount of moaning in there ... in a game that meant absolutely nothing.

People expect entire changes, but for the team to be completely fluid and broadly attacking. All that game was for, was getting minutes for the players who might need to play some role in the next round (or few, in the hope we progress) and not having any injuries.

It really is tiresome. I mentioned it earlier, but it's true, the Ole out brigade will never be happy.

Early in season: Not picking up enough points (that was valid)
Mid season: We can only beat the top sides with one tactic, to counter attack, and can't beat the low block.
Post lock down: We're only able to beat the poorer sides, not the top ones (completely disregarding early season and their own complaints).
Towards end of season: Now we can't play good football anymore as the best players are tired.

And now, the criticism is, we can't play good football with basically a 2nd choice 11 who haven't played much at all recently, let alone together, to gain some kind of understanding. Heaven forbid we won a last 16 tie 7-1 on aggregate, have qualified for the champions league and were able to give our key players a break before the really serious business end of the Europa.

Moan, moan, moan. It's like a forum made up entirely of one of my exes. And not the good kind of moaning.
 
roonster09 said:
Yes, apparently Williams and Greenwood for this season won't count too as it was forced.
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He could have just carried on playing Mata out wide as some have in the past, so definitely not forced with Greenwood. Williams is in because of injury and him loaning out Rojo, but some clubs would just have a couple of 50m backup LB's.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
He could have just carried on playing Mata out wide as some have in the past, so definitely not forced with Greenwood. Williams is in because of injury and him loaning out Rojo, but some clubs would just have a couple of 50m backup LB's.
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Yeah, also Ole created position for Greenwood by selling Lukaku. Also people have very narrow definition of what playing youngsters mean, unless its debut from academy, they don't count.
 
Those same players battered LASK 5-0 in March, so it's not a case of them being poor. As Ole said, they are lacking in match fitness and sharpness - which is also exactly what I said when everyone was saying our squad is shit post-lockdown.

They needed games and hopefully the 90 minutes yesterday will do help them to contribute as the mini-tournament progresses.

Anyone complaining about yesterday literally doesn't have a clue about squad management or football more generally.
 
dirkey said:
The match day thread last night was hilarious. The amount of moaning in there ... in a game that meant absolutely nothing.

People expect entire changes, but for the team to be completely fluid and broadly attacking. All that game was for, was getting minutes for the players who might need to play some role in the next round (or few, in the hope we progress) and not having any injuries.

It really is tiresome. I mentioned it earlier, but it's true, the Ole out brigade will never be happy.

Early in season: Not picking up enough points (that was valid)
Mid season: We can only beat the top sides with one tactic, to counter attack, and can't beat the low block.
Post lock down: We're only able to beat the poorer sides, not the top ones (completely disregarding early season and their own complaints).
Towards end of season: Now we can't play good football anymore as the best players are tired.

And now, the criticism is, we can't play good football with basically a 2nd choice 11 who haven't played much at all recently, let alone together, to gain some kind of understanding. Heaven forbid we won a last 16 tie 7-1 on aggregate, have qualified for the champions league and were able to give our key players a break before the really serious business end of the Europa.

Moan, moan, moan. It's like a forum made up entirely of one of my exes. And not the good kind of moaning.
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dirkey said:
This thread is hilarious. So, now, our midfield shape isn't good enough, and we can only win that way against the bad teams? Despite the run we've been on since the restart.

I wonder, was it the same people who were complaining we could only win one way, earlier in the thread, which was to counter attack the good teams who left us space? That we couldn't beat the low block. Now we can, apparently THAT'S the only thing we can beat.

Ever think that maybe people over think these things?

Or that maybe people just want to find fault, ANY fault, with ole? Seems that way at times.
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Spot on with both these posts mate.

It seems that dye has been cast with a lot of these people wrt Ole, and short of winning every game and getting a Treble every season (and even then I doubt that will stop some of them) they'll always be on his back and be the first to say I told you so at even the smallest of blips.

Nonces, the lot of em.
 
I don't think we are going to sign a DM this window because i think he will give Scott and Fred the next season the chance he gave Lingard and Andreas this season to rotate with and eventually displace Matic.
 
sammsky1 said:
Stop taking rubbish.
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What's rubbish about it? Laird, Garner and Levitt, especially, all should've played more in the easier games when fit, they're too good for the U23's yet they can't get a sniff in meaningless games. Look up Greenwood's minutes in the league from the start of the season until Bruno's signing, he watched Lingard, Mata and Pereira shit the bed from the bench for months, even with Martial injured. And they are still getting games, even in dead rubbers, where we could see someone with at least a future ahead. Gomes couldn't get more than one in his position. Williams had to wait for Shaw to get injured and Young suspended and then sold, etc.

Edit: The average age of the starting XI in a UEL 2nd leg against LASK at home, with a 5-0 advantage, was 27 y/o.
 
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King Andow said:
What's rubbish about it? Laird, Garner and Levitt, especially, all should've played more in the easier games when fit, they're too good for the U23's yet they can't get a sniff in meaningless games. Look up Greenwood's minutes in the league from the start of the season until Bruno's signing, he watched Lingard, Mata and Pereira shit the bed from the bench for months, even with Martial injured. And they are still getting games, even in dead rubbers, where we could see someone with at least a future ahead. Gomes couldn't get more than one in his position. Williams had to wait for Shaw to get injured and Young suspended and then sold, etc.

Edit: The average age of the starting XI in a UEL 2nd leg against LASK at home, with a 5-0 advantage, was 27 y/o.
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I'm sure you know more about managing young players than actual coaches and managers.
 
King Andow said:
I'm sure they're perfect and never make mistakes.
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That's another point entirely.

This is a tournament we want to win. The game might have been meaningless, but Ole saw it as more important to give our second string some match fitness, while giving a few starters minutes to maintain sharpness.
 
It's more in the middle than either extreme. For instance, Maguire playing 90 mins was baffling regardless of the circumstances, but at the same time the rest of the backup players playing makes sense given we want to win the tournament.

My concern is the lack of organization moreso than the players played.
 
Halftrack said:
That's another point entirely.

This is a tournament we want to win. The game might have been meaningless, but Ole saw it as more important to give our second string some match fitness, while giving a few starters minutes to maintain sharpness.
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Wasn't the only ocasion. Rochdale, Astana at home, Partizan, AZ Alkmaar, Colchester, Tranmere, Derby, Brugge... We have many talented academy players that are entering their 20's and if they can't get enough minutes here, we should loan. I'm sure they're planning it now, by the rumours.
Now, maybe he doesn't trust the team to get results without the main players, I can understand fielding our best regardless the opponent, especially with this squad and when you're under extreme pressure like Ole was during a good part of the season, but if you look at the lineups in those games you'll see that players that had all the chances and failed miserably, playing bad in basically every game (likes of Jones, Lingard, Pereira, Mata), were choosed ahead of youth in the rotation, so instead of seeing what we have coming up that could be useful in the future or maybe instantly like Williams and Greenwood and save us some millions, we get to see more of the same that even the players on the other team know it's a joke. I can't understand that so to me, that's mismanagement and he's responsible. I could also argue about the team depending too much on individual brilliance and him knackering our players but I'd probably be told to get a grip or something, so why bother.
 
King Andow said:
He's not very good at giving youngsters minutes and managing them, even in dead rubber games. Worrying. I hope we loan a few next season.
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Not very good and yet he's given more debuts to academy youngsters in a single season than any other Utd manager not named Matt Busby and has handled Greenwood's transition in the best possible manner. Gtfoh with your lame analysis.
 
rotherham_red said:
Not very good and yet he's given more debuts to academy youngsters in a single season than any other Utd manager not named Matt Busby and has handled Greenwood's transition in the best possible manner. Gtfoh with your lame analysis.
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Like I said in the last post, don't forget that for 6 months, Pereira, Lingard, Mata and James were starting ahead of him in the league, even with Martial injured. And they were and are bad, thankfully for the team Mason took his chances in the UEL and got to the point that he couldn't be ignored anymore. I'm glad for his breakout but best possible manner is a big stretch.
About the record, it's not impressive at all when you consider their game time. Apart from Greenwood, who's special; and Williams, that benefited from Shaw's injury and Young's suspension and sale, he basically just shove them in the pitch in 1 or 2 games to earn the praise, it worked.

Galbraith - 2 minutes in 1 game
Mengi - 6 minutes in 1 game
Ramazani - 6 minutes in 1 game
Mellor - 25 minutes in 1 game
Bernard - 90 minutes in 1 game
Levitt - 90 minutes in 1 game
Laird - 112 minutes in 2 games
 
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