Not enough has been said about the players part in all this mess

[OTRightWinger07]

the lazyness displayed by pogba, rashford, greenwood sometimes and mctominay lack of intelligence, matic looking like an ex-footballer

many things to consider but ultimately ole was in charge, hes the one responsible for this.

 

[The Siege]

Errors at this degree in a team sport don't occur just because players aren't focused or are 'downing tools'. You're likely to make errors from a variety of factors that culminate together - a lack of clarity, not understanding what you're responsible for, feeling the pressure of all the gaps you see around you, not being prepared for what you're about to face, lacking a sense of trust in the abilities of those around you, etc. It's not a couple of players, it's the squad underperforming, and that's on the manager straight up.

Ole's biggest mistake as a manager was not finding the balance between 'express yourself' and 'this is how we play as a team'. He told individuals to play their natural way, but built no evident cohesion for them to have their fluidity as players coincide. What this squad needs is detailed, no bullsh*t, instructions on how they're supposed to play football - off the ball runs, positioning, attacking build up variations, defensive setups, everything - and maybe leave 5% to express individual brilliance. Get the players used to absorbing a large quantum of information, and execute it to the best of their abilities.

Mourinho did this, but his overly defensive tactics and the siege 'world is against us and we must stand our ground' mentality takes a psychological toll that has never been successful long term. LVG did this, but he did it too hard and tried to force capabilities that the squad didn't possess. Ole was a massive step backward on this front, because individual brilliance is somehow this team's tactic, and his man management skills (which are world class) covered for that for as long as it could.

 

[Lentwood]

Its not on the players this time. The total lack of planning and organisation left them ruthlessly exposed and by the end I don't think one single player had a clue what they were supposed to be doing.

 

[RC89]

Morale is a real thing, irrespective of if you earn 50k a year or a week. When you're non competitive for so long - nearly 3 seasons - motivation and morale will drop. Not to say they shouldn't be taking any blame, they should but with the right manager, you'll see consistency in attitude and performance.

 

[Someone]

The moment the players start losing faith in their manager they start shutting down mentally and lose confidence.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

the lazyness displayed by pogba, rashford, greenwood sometimes and mctominay lack of intelligence, matic looking like an ex-footballer

many things to consider but ultimately ole was in charge, hes the one responsible for this.

This is the exact crap I knew I’d see in here. Pogba has Been a bit part player/injured, Rashford has too, Greenwood has even been a bit in & out of it. Even Matic has been around in fits & starts.

If we’re laying blame at players feet it better start with the £80mil oaf in the centre of our defence & the Left Back that has been trying to outdo his incompetence all season. There’s a certain profile of player that are like Teflon to some fans, no matter what level they stoop to, it’s never on them. At least you got McTo right.

 

[UnitedFire]

I agree with that, with better coaching and a system players will improve. The one thing a top coach will do is hold players liable.

We will see a mistake from Shaw and Maguire but I can tell you we wont see it week in week out cause they wont be playing if they do so.

Ole let players of the hook too easily, players made mistakes and they knew they'd play. Once competition is re-introduced, players will look sharper.

Look at the way Pep and Klopp do it, Klopp puts in Konate in a big game just to make sure Matip is not getting complacent, Jota starts and then a big game comes Bobby is back in, it sends messages to players

Pep is the same, drops Grealish, another player comes plays well. How often have we done that? Easily doable, if one game Shaw doesnt play and Telles plays, you will see that Shaw will up his game too.

Good post and its not just about sending players a message, its about fitness, sharpness and long-term physical stamina.

Towards the end of the season where we made the Europa final the players all looked finished for several games.

We went into the final looking like we were operating on fumes. It was no surprise to see us lose and I got the impression there was not a lot Ole could have done differently that day.

The subs hadn't played enough football to be sharp enough and the first team were finished.

To win finals you need to have managed your squad carefully. Sticking to too small a squad might pay dividends early on with good runs and maybe racking up some good points, but its a false dawn and at the business end of the season can unravel.

Man City is a great example last year. They rotated and that impacts quality and meant a less perfect start to the season, but come winning time they were blowing everyone away in the league because the whole squad were being maintained and could over power over played squads.

A key attribute of any potential manager for me is how they manage the squad. Blending youth and experience is also key, as it keeps up that enthusiasm throughout the year.

Ten Hag is my stand out for a number of reasons and because he technically will know how to get the best out of our squad.

Poch won't be a bad option, but we might need some patience, but it could be worthwhile patience. He has good rounded experience with a wide profile of players and different setups. He can spot talent, he blends the squad well but can sometimes try to be too clever. I think its bad luck rather than quality that means he hasn't won trophies.

The biggest black mark on his career has to be not winning the league with PSG last year, but he has fixed that this year and they are on track for an inevitable title. As I say, some patience might be required, he may not get it right straight away, but unlike Ole I'm confident he would find a way.

The only other criticism might be that has he got a part of Wenger in him in the sense of being great in momentum, but not great at picking up players when the chips are down.

For all the criticism of Ole, there are few in the world who can achieve what Ole did in terms of motivating players from a shit position to winning games. Best cheerleader ever....need to bring him in as the half time energiser!

A tough choice getting the next one right.

 

[tentan]

They've undermined every manager since 2013.

 

[Member 58925]

Harry Maguire wasn't, and never will be an £80 million defender. You don't need to listen hard, to hear the Leicester board laughing until tears roll down their cheeks to this very day.

They had change left over from that after buying Soyoncu and Fofana ffs. You can make an argument they’re both better than Maguire.

 

[Waynne]

I agree with that, with better coaching and a system players will improve. The one thing a top coach will do is hold players liable.

We will see a mistake from Shaw and Maguire but I can tell you we wont see it week in week out cause they wont be playing if they do so.

Ole let players of the hook too easily, players made mistakes and they knew they'd play. Once competition is re-introduced, players will look sharper.

Look at the way Pep and Klopp do it, Klopp puts in Konate in a big game just to make sure Matip is not getting complacent, Jota starts and then a big game comes Bobby is back in, it sends messages to players

Pep is the same, drops Grealish, another player comes plays well. How often have we done that? Easily doable, if one game Shaw doesnt play and Telles plays, you will see that Shaw will up his game too.

Pretty much this.

Great post.

How Maguire has not been dropped playing like a donkey for this long is beyond me. We reward mediocrity.

 

[roseguy64]

These posts with long lists of players that wouldn't get into our rivals' teams always pop up when a manager's underperforming, too. Usually with a whole bunch of backup players that barely get on the pitch for us added in there to pad it out.

Half this board thought Shaw was the best left-back in the world last season, now we're back to thinking he "might" get minutes for Everton.

Correct, Love a good overreaction.

 

[roseguy64]

We have seen players play well in the national team which suggests coaching at United is a problem.

Players like Fred, Maguire for example.

However, look at players like Rashford and AWB, they barely get into the England set up. AWB won't ever get in the England squad let alone team.

So yes, parts you say are true, the likes of Bruno, Greenwood, Maguire, Shaw, Fred will improve with coaching, we can see their qualities but players like McTominay, AWB I have no hope for tbh.

Rashford barely gets into the England setup? Interesting.

 

[roseguy64]

I agree with this.

Let's be clear, Ole has been bad for a while. He completely ran out of ideas, no two ways about it.

But I think some people started to look for Ole in every action. If somebody miscontrols a football it's Ole because it's his structure and the players don't know what to do. If it's an individual mistake then it's Ole because he is putting us under pressure.

There's still an element of personal responsibility. How you carry yourself as an individual. Taking pride in your work, reaching minimum standards. Not committing ridiculous errors that are totally unavoidable no matter how the team is performing. We're talking about clearing a football, or hitting it to the guy that's plainly about 5 yards away.

It's possible to see that some of these things were simply sloppy play, poor mentality, even if Ole played a role. If the defenders can't find a red shirt because we can't deal with a press so they lump it, then okay - Ole, where is our structure. If people get sent off ridiculously, can't control a ball under no pressure, or punch the ball into a net then yes the club situation plays a part but this is Man Utd, you have to do better.

Maybe we have some serious issues personnel wise and some seriously overrated players. I am hoping not.

I agree with this. A lot of our goals conceded this season have nothing to do with the system. It's players making horrendous mistakes. The first Liverpool goal where AWB and Greenwood mess up the pressing? That's on Ole.

The goal where Shaw and Maguire bounce into each other? That's on them. There have been likely more of these goals than the former.

 

[stevoc]

They've undermined every manager since 2013.

So Degea and Jones are the ringleaders in this undermining then?

 

[U.N.C.L.E]

No such thing as bad children - only bad parents

No such thing as bad workers - only bad managers

Holds true in sports, too - if you can’t CHANGE the people, change the PEOPLE

 

[Greck]

They've undermined every manager since 2013.

Not even the same lot. On the other hand it's Ole who went on losing streaks each of the last 3 seasons despite several refreshes to the squad. Who buys Ronaldo, Sancho and still can't beat Watford. It's like no amount of money could save him from a yearly lean spell.

 

[lawliet354]

Put Ole in charge at Liverpool, City or Chelsea for three years and see how those players get on.

The players get a bad rep because they are constantly given a shit hand. We have people arguing that our current squad aren’t any better talent wise than what Poch had at Spurs.

The players deserve a quality coach.

This is the only true answer, especially when the same players performs just fine with their national team. The manager is just not good enough, period. If certain players are not performing then it shows the incompetency of the managers if he keeps persisting playing them instead of dropping them

 

[Lam]

Players have to take enough blame. But, they have limitations too in terms of talent and mindset. Fred is not Scholes and Maguire or Lindelof can’t focus on the game and bound to have lapses. Ole put his trust in mid table/Top 4 at best quality players and hoped they would get him close to City. Won’t happen.

Ole is still a legend and I will always feel good when we see him on TV in the future, but he was not cut out for this due to his nature. It’s ok to be not the best in terms of coaching but he should have identified his weaknesses and got the best in class coaching staff. He went for people he was comfortable with and not the ones who deserve to be at the club. This is what made Sir Alex standout because he got people better than him in many aspects but still managed to have that aura and control.

 

[Laurencio]

I agree with this. A lot of our goals conceded this season have nothing to do with the system. It's players making horrendous mistakes. The first Liverpool goal where AWB and Greenwood mess up the pressing? That's on Ole.

The goal where Shaw and Maguire bounce into each other? That's on them. There have been likely more of these goals than the former.

The first time it happens it's on them, the fifth time it's on the manager for not doing anything about it. Players kept making mistakes and suffered no consequences for it. That was the problem with Ole - both regarding his staff and players - he accepted too many mistakes and sub-par performances. We've become excuses United with Maguire as captain sorry of a squad accustomed to making excuses. That is not how you win trophies.

I don't blame Ole - his job was clear. Get the squad happy, recruit well and start making players believe in the Man Utd ethos. That job was done last season. The right thing to do, from a footballing development perspective would be to thank Ole for his work this summer, let him leave as a success and bring in someone tactically exceptional who would take us to the next level. We didn't do that, and he left in a cloud of failure instead. Which he didn't deserve. All because of a complete lack of succession planning. The entire point of having a professional footballing department or board of business people in charge is to make these decisions and plan ahead - fans are too emotionally invested.

The players haven't been good enough, but they have suffered no consequences, that is on the manager. However, the manager was hired to lift the toxic cloud Mourinho put on the squad, make players happy and prepare the team for success. That job was all but done this summer and would have been a natural point for the leadership - or lack thereof - in the club to act. Ole was out of contract next summer (so mutual termination was within the realm of possibility) and Nagelsmann, Rose, Pochettino, Ten Hag, Conte, all of them were gettable this summer, instead they acted on sentiment extended the contract and put us in the situation we are in where we have to pay to relieve a manager who just signed an extension of his duties and bring in a new man, possibly pay for both an interim and a new manager/head coach. Ultimately it's their fault.

 

[McGrathsipan]

The players in most cases are over rated so even coached well I'm still not convinced we'd win a major trophy.

That being said when a player isn't playing well he needs to be dropped. Maguire the prime example.
That red he got was absolutely disgraceful for a so called pro and is totally on him

 

[romufc]

Good post and its not just about sending players a message, its about fitness, sharpness and long-term physical stamina.

Towards the end of the season where we made the Europa final the players all looked finished for several games.

We went into the final looking like we were operating on fumes. It was no surprise to see us lose and I got the impression there was not a lot Ole could have done differently that day.

The subs hadn't played enough football to be sharp enough and the first team were finished.

To win finals you need to have managed your squad carefully. Sticking to too small a squad might pay dividends early on with good runs and maybe racking up some good points, but its a false dawn and at the business end of the season can unravel.

Man City is a great example last year. They rotated and that impacts quality and meant a less perfect start to the season, but come winning time they were blowing everyone away in the league because the whole squad were being maintained and could over power over played squads.

A key attribute of any potential manager for me is how they manage the squad. Blending youth and experience is also key, as it keeps up that enthusiasm throughout the year.

Ten Hag is my stand out for a number of reasons and because he technically will know how to get the best out of our squad.

Poch won't be a bad option, but we might need some patience, but it could be worthwhile patience. He has good rounded experience with a wide profile of players and different setups. He can spot talent, he blends the squad well but can sometimes try to be too clever. I think its bad luck rather than quality that means he hasn't won trophies.

The biggest black mark on his career has to be not winning the league with PSG last year, but he has fixed that this year and they are on track for an inevitable title. As I say, some patience might be required, he may not get it right straight away, but unlike Ole I'm confident he would find a way.

The only other criticism might be that has he got a part of Wenger in him in the sense of being great in momentum, but not great at picking up players when the chips are down.

For all the criticism of Ole, there are few in the world who can achieve what Ole did in terms of motivating players from a shit position to winning games. Best cheerleader ever....need to bring him in as the half time energiser!

A tough choice getting the next one right.

Yep, agreed.

Look at Chelsea yesterday, changing their front line, Pulisic, CHO, Ziyech playing yet having Mount, Werner, Havertz in the wings. When RLC comes in, plays well, Kovacic plays well, he can put out any team and they win.

This is the standard the next manager needs to get at because we have a very good attacking line up and if used correctly, we can be a very good team.

Not winning the league is a big black mark, I agree but I feel both Ten Hag and Poch both have risks, both will need time.

Ten Hag will need longer to adapt, Poch has managed in this league before so has that advantage. Its a tricky one, I would go for whichever manager is available now. If Poch is available get him, if Ten Hag is get him.

I don't want an interim then if he does well, we all know what this club is capable of, I cannot have another interim for 3 years.

Moreso, we need the permanent manager to build his style of play, not waste 6 months of next season with the excuse of, ohh he is adapting. Do it this season, we cannot keep writing seasons of.

 

[Laurencio]

Yep, agreed.

Look at Chelsea yesterday, changing their front line, Pulisic, CHO, Ziyech playing yet having Mount, Werner, Havertz in the wings. When RLC comes in, plays well, Kovacic plays well, he can put out any team and they win.

This is the standard the next manager needs to get at because we have a very good attacking line up and if used correctly, we can be a very good team.

Not winning the league is a big black mark, I agree but I feel both Ten Hag and Poch both have risks, both will need time.

Ten Hag will need longer to adapt, Poch has managed in this league before so has that advantage. Its a tricky one, I would go for whichever manager is available now. If Poch is available get him, if Ten Hag is get him.

I don't want an interim then if he does well, we all know what this club is capable of, I cannot have another interim for 3 years.

Moreso, we need the permanent manager to build his style of play, not waste 6 months of next season with the excuse of, ohh he is adapting. Do it this season, we cannot keep writing seasons of.

Alternatively identify and secure our preferred summer candidate now and hire an interim that can prepare the squad for that manager's playing style so that the permanent man can hit the ground running. I can understand that getting someone in right now might be difficult (I can't really, but I'll pretend that I can), but there surely can't be a problem to secure a manager on a pre-contract for the summer? Based on who that is, we bring in an interim with a similar style that can prepare the squad for the new manager's playing style. All I want to see is an actual plan. If we go for an interim with a completely different style than the man we eventually hire it's just another example of being a terribly run club.

 

[romufc]

Alternatively identify and secure our preferred summer candidate now and hire an interim that can prepare the squad for that manager's playing style so that the permanent man can hit the ground running. I can understand that getting someone in right now might be difficult (I can't really, but I'll pretend that I can), but there surely can't be a problem to secure a manager on a pre-contract for the summer? Based on who that is, we bring in an interim with a similar style that can prepare the squad for the new manager's playing style. All I want to see is an actual plan. If we go for an interim with a completely different style than the man we eventually hire it's just another example of being a terribly run club.

The only problem I see with this is, will the players be up for it this season? Knowing that the manager will be changed. What is the motivation ?

Also, I do not trust the squad to bring a man who plays similar style. Valverde is being mentioned, the one who bottled a 3-0 lead to Liverpool.

 

[The Boy]

However, look at players like Rashford and AWB, they barely get into the England set up. AWB won't ever get in the England squad let alone team.

This is quite harsh, Rashford is an integral part of the England set up, only thing that keeps him out of the squad generally is injuries and as for AWB, the competition for RB or RWB in that England team is huge, it has to be th best stocked position in the country by a mile. James, TAA, Lamptey, Trippier, Walker etc etc. We've never had it so good at right back!

 

[Bestietom]

Players need a kick up the backside sometimes but in some cases now Player Power RULES.

 

[romufc]

This is quite harsh, Rashford is an integral part of the England set up, only thing that keeps him out of the squad generally is injuries and as for AWB, the competition for RB or RWB in that England team is huge, it has to be th best stocked position in the country by a mile. James, TAA, Lamptey, Trippier, Walker etc etc. We've never had it so good at right back!

There are 2 positions in England for LW and RW.

There is Sterling, Grealish, Sancho, Rashford, Foden, ESR, Saka who can play that position. At the moment, Sterling, Saka, Grealish are starters.

 

[Laurencio]

The only problem I see with this is, will the players be up for it this season? Knowing that the manager will be changed. What is the motivation ?

Also, I do not trust the squad to bring a man who plays similar style. Valverde is being mentioned, the one who bottled a 3-0 lead to Liverpool.

Well in that case the ground is being prepared for the new manager, if a player can't deal with the playing style of the new manager then it would be identified and a replacement could be scouted early on and recruited in the summer when the main man comes in. I mean, that's why we have a DoF - to improve recruitment and ensure that playing staff fit the style the club wants to play. The motivation, aside from being a professional footballer who wants to win, would be proving yourself as capable of being a part of the new manager's plans. Obviously in this case someone like Ten Hag would be ideal, as I don't think Ajax stops playing just because they know their manager is leaving after the end of the season. Other clubs... not so sure.

The second point is indeed the worrying part, nothing has happened over the years to suggest the leadership of the club are competent enough to execute a plan like this. My hope is that Murthough is as good as he seems to be and is given the reins in handling this transition. Ed should stick to the commercial and marketing departments...

 

[kthanksbye]

A lot of really good points made here about the players not being prepared enough to know what they should do in situations, which leaves them in a position where they cannot display/utilise what they're good at and end up having their weaknesses exposed.
Say for example Bassaka being poor with the ball, the opposition presses him as soon as he receives the ball and there is no arrangement made on the training pitch in terms of how to find a solution to that, on the contrary it's a good situation to bypass a few players and get an attack in motion if we're able to drill what is to be done in that situation. Unfortunately for too long we haven't had any of that, our CMs don't offer themselves, our CBs are not good on the ball which makes the wingers and Bruno to drop deep to help and we're pretty much playing in front of two lines of 4.

Having said that, during these times, the players also haven't covered themselves in glory, I can't wrap my head around just how bad the first touch of our entire squad is, that means we have to take 1-2 extra touches to move the ball, couple that with the players not knowing how they have to progress the ball and you have a brand of football that is embarrassing for a big club, I don't know who we can put that on, like we never work on it, too many passes are underhit or overhit, our attacks are reactive, our players have to wait for their teammate to pass the ball before they start moving.

In conclusion, yes the coaching and positional play has been terrible, but the players' lack of basic technical skills compounds that problem.

 

[minoo-utd]

They need someone who will push them to work harder because most of times they look like old men trying to move.

 

[Buster15]

They need someone who will push them to work harder because most of times they look like old men trying to move.

They do indeed.
Even the younger ones display an alarming lack of flexibility and seem quite stiff in their movement. Completely the opposite of City for example who work extremely hard on stretching.

 

[Garethw]

The players have been fecking woeful this season, we all know the coaching has been substandard but players of this calibre should be able to muster better performances than 4-1 at Watford ffs.

Even if this squad had zero manager and coaching staff they would know what they need to do on a football pitch to avoid results as bad as that. Nobody will tell me different.

They have been weak and defended like clowns, experienced internationals who have played with one another for multiple seasons. Individual errors have been off the scale this season and have cost us so many points.

Again we all accept the coaching has a large part to play but like Maguire admitted the players, to a man, have been so far off it it’s untrue.

The squad whilst high in quality severely lacks characters and leadership on the pitch, has done for many years now.

That performance against Watford was the squad sending a message to the board that they had completely lost faith in Ole.

If we continue seeing such abysmal performances over the coming weeks I’ll start believing that we are in big trouble.

 

[Glorio]

Always the same.

Something had to change, we need a better manager and we weren't going to get out of this without sacking Ole but their mentality and lack of intensity isn't just down to bad coaching.

Gotta factor in poor man-management as well. Man-management is as much about keeping players on their toes as it is about keeping them happy. My firm belief is that Ole failed terribly on the former.

As Rio said, there was no fear factor

 

[Mockney]

Im pretty sure every other thread here for as long I’ve been on the Caf blames the players. There’s literally individual ones you can do it in too. Do people think Pogba, De Gea, Maguire, Wan Bissaka, Martial, Lindelof, Rashford, McTominey and Fred don’t get enough criticism?

There’s almost always a spasm after a manager is sacked where people say “what about the players!!?” As if we haven’t all been criticising them constantly all season (or that player threads arent locked during games for this precise reason!)… but the truth is our results had been papering over our performances for a long time and eventually it all snowballed and dovetailed into a series of low confidence displays that were further compounded by not having good enough coaching to mitigate.

There rarely ever is a scenario where everyone can universally acknowledge a manager needs to change, whilst at the same time all of the players emerge unscathed… if anything the closest version to that has been us for the last year or so…. Getting by on individual brilliance and stirring comebacks whilst our chance allowance, XG and game management remained really poor…. but when that happened a lot of people just pointed to Ole’s brilliant man management and instilling of a fighting spirit, so… what dyou do!?

I guarantee you that if we’d lost the Liverpool & City games less embarrassingly there’d be plenty of people willing to write them off, and we’d have stumbled on for another six months, a year, or more, until inevitably things got really bad again…because the board (and some of the fans) weren’t going to see the light unless it got grotesquely, humiliatingly bad.

Much like with Jose at the same point in his tenure… we just let it run on too long as a kind of weird experiment to see what happens when an obviously past-peak project is left to simmer indefinitely, and the answer is… that.

Yes the players are better than that, and yes they’ve been making some shocking mistakes, but some could argue they’ve been fighting for their manager for a year or so now… and when you live by individual brilliance alone, you die by individual errors too.

 

[KingCavani]

It's always interesting when a group of players that have prolonged their manager tenure by being the kings of comebacks are called mentally weak and have supposedly downed tools.

Isn't it amazing?

Happened in Mourinho's final, most toxic months too - Neville and the other usual suspects on TV were going on about downing tools and throwing the manager under the bus, all while the players literally kept him in the job with repeated comebacks against Bournemouth, Chelsea, Arsenal, Southampton and Newcastle. It was possibly even funnier back then because our best player in that 8-week spell was literally Martial, the longtime poster child for sulking and only playing when he can be arsed.

This isn't really how players "down tools" - They're never going to stop running or intentionally misplace passes - They'd only hurt themselves doing that. Players will always play for themselves.

What happens when a manager loses the players is the team collectively stops working as a unit and defensively especially they will get exposed. The players tune out instructions and the organisation falls apart. The extra mental effort that's required at the top level is gone and players essentially go into business for themselves.

That was clearly happening in Jose's final season (and the end of the previous one) and there were times this year where it looked like that.

 

[JPRouve]

This isn't really how players "down tools" - They're never going to stop running or intentionally misplace passes - They'd only hurt themselves doing that. Players will always play for themselves.

What happens when a manager loses the players is the team collectively stops working as a unit and defensively especially they will get exposed. The players tune out instructions and the organisation falls apart. The extra mental effort that's required at the top level is gone and players essentially go into business for themselves.

That was clearly happening in Jose's final season (and the end of the previous one) and there were times this year where it looked like that.

That's not what downing tools mean though, downing tools is about suddenly and consciously stopping to work in order to show your discontent, it's essentially a strike. What you are describing isn't downing tools and is closer to what I believe generally happens which is that players slowly and unconsciously lose confidence in themselves and the coaching staff, indeed they may tune out and lose that edge that is so important at elite level.

 

[KingCavani]

That's not what downing tools mean though, downing tools is about suddenly and consciously stopping to work in order to show your discontent, it's essentially a strike.

That literally never happens in football or even in sports really.

The expression as it's used in football is more to indicate they're not doing as much as they could, which was pretty obviously the case under Jose, as we immediately found in the following weeks. And it definitely wasn't "unconscious" - Players like Pogba would have been well aware he wasn't emotionally invested like he had been for France in the summer.

 

[RUCK4444]

That performance against Watford was the squad sending a message to the board that they had completely lost faith in Ole.

If we continue seeing such abysmal performances over the coming weeks I’ll start believing that we are in big trouble.

But the individual errors lead back to the beginning of the season, when things were rosey and everybody was excited about the new signings etc.

Coaching aside the players have been a level below that of last season. Just the basic fundamentals like clearing the ball, tracking runners, positional play, that were there last season weren’t this season.

They have to take some criticism for that, they are the ones on the pitch representing the shirt and some of them should be ashamed of themselves, especially the Liverpool game in which I still say Liverpool didn’t even play that well, we were just calamitous for 90 minutes.

 

[JPRouve]

That literally never happens in football or even in sports really.

The expression as it's used in football is more to indicate they're not doing as much as they could, which was pretty obviously the case under Jose, as we immediately found in the following weeks.

Which is why the expression and how people target individual players make no sense, that's my point. The expression used in Football is nonsensical, people regularly claim that players downed tools to get the manager out. We have the same opinion on what happens and you somehow defend a nonsensical claim by others.

 

[DULLAGHAN]

I honestly believe the players worked their socks off to keep Ole in a job much longer than he should've been. It's clear the players liked him and he never lost the dressing room from a loyalty perspective. What he did lose was the players faith tactically.

The number of games over the years we've been woeful for the 1st half, so clearly not set up properly or we'll prepared. A few bits of individual brilliance from the likes of Bruno or Cavani to get a result.

The players have short careers and you can't expect them to drag the club forward with an inept management and tactical structure forever. I honestly believe a good manager will have these players competing.

Ole is a great bloke, but he should never have been our coach and 3 years of "have a go lads" attitude has had its effect.

 

[KingCavani]

Which is why the expression and how people target individual players make no sense, that's my point. The expression used in Football is nonsensical, people regularly claim that players downed tools to get the manager out. We have the same opinion on what happens and you somehow defend a nonsensical claim by others.

My guy it's an expression. I'm pretty sure the issue isn't with me and just about everyone in football using what is obviously a figure of speech but rather in you taking it literally.