Nordic Ghost Yeti (Scandi Carroll) | Haaland at City

[rimaldo]

he’s a brilliant striker but not a brilliant footballer but he is good at football.

 

[Gehrman]

he’s a brilliant striker but not a brilliant footballer but he is good at football.

He sure knows how to finish things off.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I think both Haaland and Mbappe are a bit overrated because they score so much. I hope in a few years, somebody like Pedri, Gavi, Wirtz, Bellingham, Musiala, Duranville, Lamine or Güler will be recognized as the best in the world instead of them. They may score less but have all the potential to become better players than Haaland and Mbappe who can be really, really quiet when their teams don't create chances for them.

No chance at all.

 

[Gehrman]

No chance at all.

I havnt even followed football enough to know the majority of those names.

 

[Tom Cato]

Ahh yes because football is only about the goals…

Scoring goals is about being the best goalscorer

 

[Gehrman]

Shocks me how people are talking about Haaland vs Mbappe & how it is reminds me about how people talked about Ronaldo vs Messi.

One does it consistently in different leagues, hard leagues and the less historical successful national team whilst prioritizing physical ability to become less technical & to some be boring.

The other does it majority in one league, for a National team with a history of success through decades & is a very technical/beautiful play to the fans eyes.

Interesting, Mbappe will be the GOAT for the majority I reckon.

If PSG werent offering absolutely silly money and he's french in a strong team he'd been picked up by the biggest traditional clubs by now.

 

[Zehner]

Where do you see potential in those names that are even remotely on the same level of Mbappe or Haaland?

As for those two, Haaland seems to disappear in big games going by their CL run last year. It seems easier to keep him out of the game. Mbappe on the other hand is able to produce even when things aren’t going well. He is without a doubt the better player with much more to his game, doesn’t help himself and his legacy by staying in the French league for so long though. Haaland has been much smarter in that regard.

But I don’t feel either one will get close to Messi/Ronaldo.

I don't think any player of the current generation will get close to Messi. Which is why I think the names I mentioned can become better players than Mbappe and Haaland. With Haaland his shortcomings are clear but I think Mbappe's contribution outside of goals is overrated. There are many players who have better game reading ability and technique than Mbappe both in terms of dribbling/controlling the ball as well as in terms of passing.

No chance at all.

Why not? Goals aren't everything.

 

[mshnsh]

Where do you see potential in those names that are even remotely on the same level of Mbappe or Haaland?

As for those two, Haaland seems to disappear in big games going by their CL run last year. It seems easier to keep him out of the game. Mbappe on the other hand is able to produce even when things aren’t going well. He is without a doubt the better player with much more to his game, doesn’t help himself and his legacy by staying in the French league for so long though. Haaland has been much smarter in that regard.

But I don’t feel either one will get close to Messi/Ronaldo.

Mbappe is similar to Ronaldo at Utd and at Real Madrid from 2008 to 2015 with a few differences:
Mbappe is more explosive and curls to finish alot more.
Ronaldo was far better at heading, was a better finisher and had a better touch.
At dribbling and creating, they are similar but imo Mbappe has the edge.

I think the Ronaldo level can be reached/surpassed by footballers of similar or more talent but sustaining it is what almost all of them would find very difficult.

 

[Zen86]

Lemme know when Mbappe decides to actually test himself in a good league.

Haaland even performs better in the Champions League.

The CL used to be a good test of quality. However the majority of teams in the competition are comparatively a bit pants now.

 

[Zlaatan]

Shocks me how people are talking about Haaland vs Mbappe & how it is reminds me about how people talked about Ronaldo vs Messi.

One does it consistently in different leagues, hard leagues and the less historical successful national team whilst prioritizing physical ability to become less technical & to some be boring.

The other does it majority in one league, for a National team with a history of success through decades & is a very technical/beautiful play to the fans eyes.

Interesting, Mbappe will be the GOAT for the majority I reckon.

If Haaland scores 1000 goals in his career he's going to have scored about half as many goals as the number of times you've made this argument on this forum.

 

[Gehrman]

If Haaland scores 1000 goals in his career he's going to have scored about half as many goals as the number of times you've made this argument on this forum.

Mpabbe really chose the easy option when he chose to born in France.

 

[CrockedRain]

Mbappe is similar to Ronaldo at Utd and at Real Madrid from 2008 to 2015 with a few differences:
Mbappe is more explosive and curls to finish alot more.
Ronaldo was far better at heading, was a better finisher and had a better touch.
At dribbling and creating, they are similar but imo Mbappe has the edge.

I think the Ronaldo level can be reached/surpassed by footballers of similar or more talent but sustaining it is what almost all of them would find very difficult.

Mbappe doesn't have the long range threat and set pieces C.Ronaldo had though. He also isn't that good penetrative passer nor good at the buildup (Ronaldo naturally was very good at it because he started as a midfielder, he had a unique magic to him, I don't think anybody replicated the feeling of prime CR7 extremely direct and fast buildup play, It was a unique landscape back then and now, I believe his direct style of play was by far the major contribution to United beautiful style of play during the late 2000s), Mbappe is very rarely on the orchestrator side, He does have a decent final ball delivery though.

In addition, Mbappe doesn't possess than same "All encompassing shooting threat", Ronaldo had the ability to receive the ball in any position and release a dangerous shot in less than a second under the defenders nose, He was the best at it. Also, Mbappe wasn't a better dribbler, Ronaldo was fouled twice if not thrice as much as Mbappe per game (Every foul is a potential dribble that could've been) yet in spite of that their dribbling stats at the same age are equal (With Ronaldo being slightly superior) but with additional context (League difficulty, Solo goals, Eye test and consensus) i think it's obvious that Ronaldo was naturally the better dribbler threat. You do sell Ronaldo short here, There aren't more than 4 primes throughout football history that can match Ronaldo best 5 seasons run, Except Pele and Messi, Non had the ability to score at ATG level rate while being a great buildup player and phenomenal soloist, Di Stefano possibly too but that was in overly inflated era in term of offensive contribution.

When it comes to Haaland vs Mbappe i think it's clear that the latter is the better player, Not because of what some futile dribbling stats, key passes or whatever spreadsheet nonsense out there show, But simply because the best measurement of a great player is the ability to perform AGAINST your own team poor/average performance, To change the score by yourself, This is what strike fear in the defenders heart, Facing an overpowered force, In a sense the amount of fear one strike on the opponent side is a better measurement of ability than being a more "complete" attacker (Neymar for example is a complete attacker that lack this ability), And i believe Mbappe share this trait with other greats while Haaland.. I'm not so sure.

 

[Roothless1970]

I think Haaland will score at least 35 premier league goals this season, I just hope Hojlund does the same for us

 

[TheLord]

If Haaland can keep this goalscoring form for the next 5+ years and win major trophies in the process, he will be considered among the all-time greats.

Guardiola has assigned him one particular objective on the field of play - score goals - and he does that better than anyone else in the world. He needn't do 10 other things on the field - create, defend, dribble, intercept...- to prove that he's a great footballer.

Some forwards do too many things on the field, sometimes to the detriment of the primary task. Such forwards may look better on the eye, or more involved in the game, rack up possession statistics, and even obtain better match-day ratings. But they score less. Pure clinical strikers, who can score tons of goals, are rare and worth their weight in gold. There is no point in Haaland trying to do many other things during matches and to re-configure himself as more well-rounded.

People who think Haaland is overrated are youngsters spoiled by the unreal Lionel Messi, a true magician. Haaland is amazing, a tier below the GOAT, but a true great in the making.

 

[Roothless1970]

If Haaland can keep this goalscoring form for the next 5+ years and win major trophies in the process, he will be considered among the all-time greats.

Guardiola has assigned him one particular objective on the field of play - score goals - and he does that better than anyone else in the world. He needn't do 10 other things on the field - create, defend, dribble, intercept...- to prove that he's a great footballer.

Some forwards do too many things on the field, sometimes to the detriment of the primary task. Such forwards may look better on the eye, or more involved in the game, rack up possession statistics, and even obtain better match-day ratings. But they score less. Pure clinical strikers, who can score tons of goals, are rare and worth their weight in gold. There is no point in Haaland trying to do many other things during matches and to re-configure himself as more well-rounded.

People who think Haaland is overrated are youngsters spoiled by the unreal Lionel Messi, a true magician. Haaland is amazing, a tier below the GOAT, but a true great in the making.

I definitely agree he will be an all time great, it's a pity we couldn't sign him cause Keano broke his Dad. I know that's not the real reason but I'm sticking with it.

 

[mshnsh]

Mbappe doesn't have the long range threat and set pieces C.Ronaldo had though. He also isn't that good penetrative passer nor good at the buildup (Ronaldo naturally was very good at it because he started as a midfielder, he had a unique magic to him, I don't think anybody replicated the feeling of prime CR7 extremely direct and fast buildup play, It was a unique landscape back then and now, I believe his direct style of play was by far the major contribution to United beautiful style of play during the late 2000s), Mbappe is very rarely on the orchestrator side, He does have a decent final ball delivery though.

In addition, Mbappe doesn't possess than same "All encompassing shooting threat", Ronaldo had the ability to receive the ball in any position and release a dangerous shot in less than a second under the defenders nose, He was the best at it. Also, Mbappe wasn't a better dribbler, Ronaldo was fouled twice if not thrice as much as Mbappe per game (Every foul is a potential dribble that could've been) yet in spite of that their dribbling stats at the same age are equal (With Ronaldo being slightly superior) but with additional context (League difficulty, Solo goals, Eye test and consensus) i think it's obvious that Ronaldo was naturally the better dribbler threat. You do sell Ronaldo short here, There aren't more than 4 primes throughout football history that can match Ronaldo best 5 seasons run, Except Pele and Messi, Non had the ability to score at ATG level rate while being a great buildup player and phenomenal soloist, Di Stefano possibly too but that was in overly inflated era in term of offensive contribution.

When it comes to Haaland vs Mbappe i think it's clear that the latter is the better player, Not because of what some futile dribbling stats, key passes or whatever spreadsheet nonsense out there show, But simply because the best measurement of a great player is the ability to perform AGAINST your own team poor/average performance, To change the score by yourself, This is what strike fear in the defenders heart, Facing an overpowered force, In a sense the amount of fear one strike on the opponent side is a better measurement of ability than being a more "complete" attacker (Neymar for example is a complete attacker that lack this ability), And i believe Mbappe share this trait with other greats while Haaland.. I'm not so sure.

No. When was Ronaldo a "penetrative passer"

No. Mbappe has better dribbling stats age for age until last season which was his worst season in a while.

No. Fouls don't mean he is a better dribbler. Ronaldo often looked for those.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Why not? Goals aren't everything.

The only three players there that could be on their level would be Bellingham, Musiala and Pedri, maybe Gavi but I just don't see it. I agree goals aren't every everything but also you're just going down the other end of overvaluing everything but goals and forgetting the fundamentals of the game. It'd be like saying Hazard was going to be better than Cristiano Ronaldo, there are different levels to these things.

 

[Zehner]

If Haaland can keep this goalscoring form for the next 5+ years and win major trophies in the process, he will be considered among the all-time greats.

Guardiola has assigned him one particular objective on the field of play - score goals - and he does that better than anyone else in the world. He needn't do 10 other things on the field - create, defend, dribble, intercept...- to prove that he's a great footballer.

Some forwards do too many things on the field, sometimes to the detriment of the primary task. Such forwards may look better on the eye, or more involved in the game, rack up possession statistics, and even obtain better match-day ratings. But they score less. Pure clinical strikers, who can score tons of goals, are rare and worth their weight in gold. There is no point in Haaland trying to do many other things during matches and to re-configure himself as more well-rounded.

People who think Haaland is overrated are youngsters spoiled by the unreal Lionel Messi, a true magician. Haaland is amazing, a tier below the GOAT, but a true great in the making.

While that is true, I still can't help but think he rarely looks the best player on the pitch when City plays. He can score three goals but often I still think somebody like de Bruyne, Gündogan or Bernardo had a better game. In his later years, this was often the case with CR7 as well, when he was outperformed by Modric, Marcelo, Kroos, etc. at times despite scoring.

That's the stuff that you don't see on a (superficial) stats sheet. And I have a hard time putting such a player ahead of other very good ones. Goals are only one way to contribute offensively and if one player's actions almost exclusively consist of goals and another's are made up mostly by other stuff then this is just an unfair comparison.

 

[Zehner]

The only two players there that could be on their level would be Bellingham, Musiala and Pedri, maybe Gavi but I just don't see it. I agree goals aren't every everything but also you're just going down the other end of overvaluing everything but goals and forgetting the fundamentals of the game. It'd be like saying Hazard was going to be better than Cristiano Ronaldo, there are different levels to these things.

I don't think you have seen much of the players I mentioned. Bellingham for instance is the least talented of the names I gave, IMO. Some of them have the potential to become as good as somebody like Zidane, Roaldinho, Iniesta, Xavi or Robben form the last generation of players and I'd pick those ahead of Mbappe in a heartbeat.

Messi and Cristiano have really lead to a goal obsession in such debates. Before them people looked much less at goals.

 

[CrockedRain]

No. When was Ronaldo a "penetrative passer"

No. Mbappe has better dribbling stats age for age until last season which was his worst season in a while.

No. Fouls don't mean he is a better dribbler. Ronaldo often looked for those.

Ronaldo provided more through balls in 10/11 and 11/12 In LaLiga+CL alone than Mbappe did in his whole career including national tournaments (370 games). Ronaldo in his prime was possibly the second most prolific through-baller forward in the past 17 years, And he did that from the wing (It's naturally easier/more accessible to provide through balls from the center). The best comparison i can give against elite passer that also played under the same circumstances (Position+Difficulty) is Barca Neymar, He completed 28 key passes from through-balls in LaLiga+CL during his best 3 seasons in Barcelona (14-17), Ronaldo for comparison completed 34 between 11-13.

The dribbling stats are available, You can check them out and apply the context i offered. Anyway, On stats alone you can't win this argument. Subjectively speaking, Based on eye test i don't think Mbappe reached Ronaldo dribbling level between 2005-2011, That's my opinion.

Fouls indeed add additional context, The best dribblers are always the most fouled players, And CR7 was the most fouled player in the PL between 03-09 as well as one of the most fouled players in the world between 10-14 (Even more than Messi). Mbappe never won as much fouls per game as elite dribblers, But some of that could be explained by attitude, Other great dribblers were also great freekick takers, For them winning the foul instead of keep going in the slalom was the more preferable option. And like i said, Every foul IS potentially a dribble that could've been (OPTA doesn't count a dribble if a player wins the foul) , Further cementing the point that Ronaldo was the better dribbler, statistically speaking.

 

[Red in STL]

I don't think any player of the current generation will get close to Messi. Which is why I think the names I mentioned can become better players than Mbappe and Haaland. With Haaland his shortcomings are clear but I think Mbappe's contribution outside of goals is overrated. There are many players who have better game reading ability and technique than Mbappe both in terms of dribbling/controlling the ball as well as in terms of passing.





Why not? Goals aren't everything.

I thought the whole point of football was to score goals

 

[Zehner]

I thought the whole point of football was to score goals

And it doesn't matter who scores them. The player who scored the goal is often not the player who made that goal happen. When you say "Haaland scored 30 goals" what you actually are saying is that 30 times Haaland had the last touch before the ball ended up in the net.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I don't think you have seen much of the players I mentioned. Bellingham for instance is the least talented of the names I gave, IMO. Some of them have the potential to become as good as somebody like Zidane, Roaldinho, Iniesta, Xavi or Robben form the last generation of players and I'd pick those ahead of Mbappe in a heartbeat.

Messi and Cristiano have really lead to a goal obsession in such debates. Before them people looked much less at goals.

Seems like you haven't seen much of Mbappé then, from your previous posts you seem to really rate dribbling, yet don't rate Mbappé who is a better dribbler than most of those players you mentioned, if not all of them. Only Musiala and Kudus had better dribbling stats at the 2022 World Cup than Mbappé, only four players had better dribbling than him in the 2018 World Cup for example. Mbappé is at least as exciting as those players you mentioned, there is an electricity when he comes on the pitch.

 

[Pexbo]

Mpabbe really chose the easy option when he chose to born in France.

Haaland scoring all his goals in Norway really backs up your point there

 

[Zehner]

Seems like you haven't seen much of Mbappé then, from your previous posts you seem to really rate dribbling, yet don't rate Mbappé who is a better dribbler than most of those players you mentioned, if not all of them. Only Musiala and Kudus had better dribbling stats at the 2022 World Cup than Mbappé, only four players had better dribbling than him in the 2018 World Cup for example. Mbappé is at least as exciting as those players you mentioned, there is an electricity when he comes on the pitch.

He's a great dribbler but very much relies on pace. Especially in tight areas Musiala, Wirtz, Pedri and Gavi are all better than him. Wirtz e. g. completed 3.8 dribbles per game last season, he's in the top 1 percentile for both attacking midfielders and forwards. Same for through balls and key passes. And he's notneven at an elite club yet, those stats tend to go up another notch after a player joins a team that dominates its league.

It is early days with Güler, Lamine and Duranville but technically they look like potential world beaters.

 

[Gehrman]

Haaland scoring all his goals in Norway really backs up your point there

That wasn't my point at all. It was about Bebe makihg it sound like Mpabbe intentionally reincarnated in France so he could play for a strong national team.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

He's a great dribbler but very much relies on pace. Especially in tight areas Musiala, Wirtz, Pedri and Gavi are all better than him. Wirtz e. g. completed 3.8 dribbles per game last season, he's in the top 1 percentile for both attacking midfielders and forwards. Same for through balls and key passes. And he's notneven at an elite club yet, those stats tend to go up another notch after a player joins a team that dominates its league.

It is early days with Güler, Lamine and Duranville but technically they look like potential world beaters.

There's more to football than just tight spaces, Mbappé stretches games with that pace. Fast dribbling is far more game breaking than slow dribbling and Mbappé is already technically a world beater so they'd be doing well to get near his current level, never mind beyond.

 

[Zehner]

There's more to football than just tight spaces, Mbappé stretches games with that pace. Fast dribbling is far more game breaking than slow dribbling and Mbappé is already technically a world beater so they'd be doing well to get near his current level, never mind beyond.

Technically a world beater? He's probably not even in the top 10 players in terms of technique, perhaps not even top 20. He's obviously a world beater but not because of his technique.

I think you really underrate the talents I named. Pedri, Gavi, Wirtz and Musiala are breathtaking. Without players like them, Mbappe's pace would be pointless because he wouldn't be played through. Plus they work much harder against the ball as well.

 

[FrankFoot]

He's a great dribbler but very much relies on pace. Especially in tight areas Musiala, Wirtz, Pedri and Gavi are all better than him. Wirtz e. g. completed 3.8 dribbles per game last season, he's in the top 1 percentile for both attacking midfielders and forwards. Same for through balls and key passes. And he's notneven at an elite club yet, those stats tend to go up another notch after a player joins a team that dominates its league.

It is early days with Güler, Lamine and Duranville but technically they look like potential world beaters.

Musiala has choked a bunch of times, I won't say anything about Wirtz cause he plays for Leverkusen.
But there really hasn't been a german name in the last years that is better than Mbappe, not a single one, what you just did its projecting something that hasn't happened either and probably won't happen, cause Musiala seems like pure dribbling but no real threat in the last third, not outside of Bundesliga at least.

And Pedri and Gavi are midfielders so hardly comparable with Mbappe, they play a completely different role.

Musiala IMO will never be better than Mbappe, all my memories of him in big games is bottling chance after chance, cause he possessed no real threat in the last third when the games gets rough, it's games where Germany and Bayern are bullying the opposition cause the opponent is way too inferior when he shines and looks a like a world beater.

 

[FrankFoot]

There's more to football than just tight spaces, Mbappé stretches games with that pace. Fast dribbling is far more game breaking than slow dribbling and Mbappé is already technically a world beater so they'd be doing well to get near his current level, never mind beyond.

Yeah I don't think neither of those names will be better than Mbappe, except maybe Pedri.

And neither of those has looked like a world beater in big games, which is definitely an important subject when it comes to choose who is better overall in terms of performances aside from dribbling stats that can't lead to nothing if the dribbler misses a pass in the last third.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Technically a world beater? He's probably not even in the top 10 players in terms of technique, perhaps not even top 20. He's obviously a world beater but not because of his technique.

I think you really underrate the talents I named. Pedri, Gavi, Wirtz and Musiala are breathtaking. Without players like them, Mbappe's pace would be pointless because he wouldn't be played through. Plus they work much harder against the ball as well.

Without players like Mbappé and Haaland the game would be a technical but essentially dull low scoring draw most of the time. I agree they work harder without the ball, that’s a downside of Mbappé already in his career but technique wise he’s very good and technique to go with athleticism is a lethal combination.

You obviously like Wirtz as he’s Leverkusen and you support them but Mbappé was well ahead of Wirtz at 20, they’re operating in different worlds. Musiala is a very exciting player and brings similar excitement to Mbappé on the ball but the end product is nothing near. And Pedri and Gavi aren’t that exciting in my opinion, some nice touches and smart footballers but hardly get you off your seat like Mbappé or Haaland would.

 

[Zehner]

Musiala has choked a bunch of times, I won't say anything about Wirtz cause he plays for Leverkusen.
But there really hasn't been a german name in the last years that is better than Mbappe, not a single one, what you just did its projecting something that hasn't happened either and probably won't happen, cause Musiala seems like pure dribbling but no real threat in the last third, not outside of Bundesliga at least.

And Pedri and Gavi are midfielders so hardly comparable with Mbappe, they play a completely different role.

Musiala IMO will never be better than Mbappe, all my memories of him in big games is bottling chance after chance, cause he possessed no real threat in the last third when the games gets rough, it's games where Germany and Bayern are bullying the opposition cause the opponent is way too inferior when he shines and looks a like a world beater.

Well, the question was who could be seen as the best player in the world a few years down the line and that's not reserved for strikers, is it?

I think you're applying different standards to the players, though. Musiala is at 42 goal contributions in 4500 Bundesliga minutes which is very impressive as a CM/CAM. And while it is "only" Bundesliga, Mbappe is playing for a team that is even more dominant than its competition in a worse league. And it is not like he has performed well when his team was dominated by the opponent. He completely disappeared almost every time PSG went out of the UCL.

And while it might be true that German hasn't produced a talent comparable to Mbappe in a long time (for me the last one was Götze), Wirtz and Musiala might very well be the biggest German prospects I've witnessed during my lifetime. Wirtz especially is absolutely incredible. I don't think you get how extraordinary it is to be among the best 1% in terms of dribbling and through balls of all attackers and midfielders in Europe at the age of 20, right after recovering from an ACL. I can only recommend watching a little bit of him. I rate talents like these over goal scorers the same way I rated Ronaldinho, Kaka or Zidane over Eto'o, van Nistelroy or Henry.

 

[Howl]

Haaland is probably going to be the greatest goal scorer in the history of the game. Outside of scoring goals I don't think he's that special but I can't think of any better in terms of scoring goals.

 

[Zehner]

Without players like Mbappé and Haaland the game would be a technical but essentially dull low scoring draw most of the time. I agree they work harder without the ball, that’s a downside of Mbappé already in his career but technique wise he’s very good and technique to go with athleticism is a lethal combination.

You obviously like Wirtz as he’s Leverkusen and you support them but Mbappé was well ahead of Wirtz at 20, they’re operating in different worlds. Musiala is a very exciting player and brings similar excitement to Mbappé on the ball but the end product is nothing near. And Pedri and Gavi aren’t that exciting in my opinion, some nice touches and smart footballers but hardly get you off your seat like Mbappé or Haaland would.

I'm not like that, I'm usually rather the type who is more critical of players belonging to his team because I find it ridiculous when fans keep overhyping their favorite players. For instance, many Leverkusen fans I know rated Havertz higher than Sancho and I also thought that as ridiculous. Diaby is a similar case. But Wirtz is truly special.

I think Mbappe is overrated as he's been very mature at a very young age and developed end product very early on. But development isn't linear. You could very well argue that Mbappe at 20 was better than Messi, Neymar and Cristiano at the same age but that doesn't mean much as he is rather atypical. Most players spend their teens optimizing their motoric abilities as they are very hard to train in adult age. But decision making, timing, composure etc. usually improves later on. Mbappe was excellent in these things already at 16 but in terms of technique, he was always a bit sloppy in comparison to other prodigies, a bit similar to Dembele. And he still has a habit of messing up his first touch, misplacing easy passes, hitting it too long while dribbling or missing easy chances. That's why I think he'll never hit the peak of Messi, Cristiano or even Neymar. The same goes for Haaland to an even greater extent.

And I think you can see that all the time. Can you really call Haaland the best player in City's team when he has as quiet games as the semi final and the final? At times finishes games with below 30 touches? Can you name Mbappe the best player in the world when he can be completely invisible in decisive games, poaching for through balls that won't come because his team can't beat the press?

 

[FrankFoot]

Well, the question was who could be seen as the best player in the world a few years down the line and that's not reserved for strikers, is it?

I think you're applying different standards to the players, though. Musiala is at 42 goal contributions in 4500 Bundesliga minutes which is very impressive as a CM/CAM. And while it is "only" Bundesliga, Mbappe is playing for a team that is even more dominant than its competition in a worse league. And it is not like he has performed well when his team was dominated by the opponent. He completely disappeared almost every time PSG went out of the UCL.

And while it might be true that German hasn't produced a talent comparable to Mbappe in a long time (for me the last one was Götze), Wirtz and Musiala might very well be the biggest German prospects I've witnessed during my lifetime. Wirtz especially is absolutely incredible. I don't think you get how extraordinary it is to be among the best 1% in terms of dribbling and through balls of all attackers and midfielders in Europe at the age of 20, right after recovering from an ACL. I can only recommend watching a little bit of him. I rate talents like these over goal scorers the same way I rated Ronaldinho, Kaka or Zidane over Eto'o, van Nistelroy or Henry.

I've seen Mbappe already deliver a bunch of times when his teams looks dysfunctional, (not the last UCL of course), either France or PSG.
I've yet seen Musiala step up when it looks rough for Germany and Bayern, same goes for Pedri and Gavi with Spain and Barca.

Also it's an insult that you are really putting exciting players to watch like Eto and Henry with pure goalscorers like RVN who didn't have much on his game outside of scoring like Haaland.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I'm not like that, I'm usually rather the type who is more critical of players belonging to his team because I find it ridiculous when fans keep overhyping their favorite players. For instance, many Leverkusen fans I know rated Havertz higher than Sancho and I also thought that as ridiculous. Diaby is a similar case. But Wirtz is truly special.

I think Mbappe is overrated as he's been very mature at a very young age and developed end product very early on. But development isn't linear. You could very well argue that Mbappe at 20 was better than Messi, Neymar and Cristiano at the same age but that doesn't mean much as he is rather atypical. Most players spend their teens optimizing their motoric abilities as they are very hard to train in adult age. But decision making, timing, composure etc. usually improves later on. Mbappe was excellent in these things already at 16 but in terms of technique, he was always a bit sloppy in comparison to other prodigies, a bit similar to Dembele. And he still has a habit of messing up his first touch, misplacing easy passes, hitting it too long while dribbling or missing easy chances. That's why I think he'll never hit the peak of Messi, Cristiano or even Neymar. The same goes for Haaland to an even greater extent.

And I think you can see that all the time. Can you really call Haaland the best player in City's team when he has as quiet games as the semi final and the final? At times finishes games with below 30 touches? Can you name Mbappe the best player in the world when he can be completely invisible in decisive games, poaching for through balls that won't come because his team can't beat the press?

Yes you can say Haaland is City’s best player, only De Bruyne compares. Such is the role of a striker, he’s doing his job as is asked of him, sometimes players can get involved too much in that role like Kane at times for England, there’s no point coming up to the halfway line to touch the ball when the midfielders are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. Haaland is efficient in his usage.

Mbappé scored a hat trick in Camp Nou and scored both legs of the CL against Real Madrid two years ago and watched the rest of his team collapse in front of him as he was by far their best player. Mbappé is the lifeblood of PSG in this era and has been better than the unreliable Neymar in big moments, but that’s a story for another day. He just scored 8 goals in a World Cup not even a year ago and a hat-trick in the final, with one of the great tournament performances that lots of other players wouldn’t dream of doing and you’re acting like he’s Lukaku or something. The only thing holding Mbappé back is ego at this point - lack of effort off the ball and asking for star treatment and a billion euro a year. On the pitch he’s the real deal.

 

[Zehner]

Yes you can say Haaland is City’s best player, only De Bruyne compares. Such is the role of a striker, he’s doing his job as is asked of him, sometimes players can get involved too much in that role like Kane at times for England, there’s no point coming up to the halfway line to touch the ball when the midfielders are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. Haaland is efficient in his usage.

Mbappé scored a hat trick in Camp Nou and scored both legs of the CL against Real Madrid two years ago and watched the rest of his team collapse in front of him as he was by far their best player. Mbappé is the lifeblood of PSG in this era and has been better than the unreliable Neymar in big moments, but that’s a story for another day. He just scored 8 goals in a World Cup not even a year ago and a hat-trick in the final, with one of the great tournament performances that lots of other players wouldn’t dream of doing and you’re acting like he’s Lukaku or something. The only thing holding Mbappé back is ego at this point - lack of effort off the ball and asking for star treatment and a billion euro a year. On the pitch he’s the real deal.

He's scored a hattrick after being invisible for 70 minutes. You can argue that it is Haaland's job. I'd argue that you want your best player to be on the ball more often than a couple of times a game. Which is why the best players aren't played as strikers. There's a reason that you find no strikers if you go through the commonly agreed top 10 - 20 players in history. And if you find one then he's had a role in which he was much more involved, e. g. R9.

Thing is, in the Messi era you never had to make that distinction because the best playmaker in the world was also the best goal scorer. Cristiano was a similar case in his younger years. But before them, it was always playmakers that were rated the highest. I mean, you already mentioned KdB and I believe this is very telling. He's nowhere near in terms of stats but when you watch City and both players are on the pitch, it sinks in that he's the focal point of this team, the one everyone runs through when he's on the pitch. And many of the young playmaker talents emerging right now have the potential to be better than him.

 

[Zehner]

I've seen Mbappe already deliver a bunch of times when his teams looks dysfunctional, (not the last UCL of course), either France or PSG.
I've yet seen Musiala step up when it looks rough for Germany and Bayern, same goes for Pedri and Gavi with Spain and Barca.

Also it's an insult that you are really putting exciting players to watch like Eto and Henry with pure goalscorers like RVN who didn't have much on his game outside of scoring like Haaland.

I don't know what you're on about, I never claimed Henry, Eto'o and van Nistelroy were similar. Actually, I named Eto'o and Henry as they were similar to Mbappe and van Nistelroy because he was similar to Haaland in terms of contribution outside of goals.

But although Eto'o and Henry were not only great goal scorers with electric pace but brillant dribblers and creators in their own right, they were outshone by team mates who scored less in Zidane and Ronaldinho.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Scoring goals is about being the best goalscorer

But not the best player in the world. Welcome to the conversation.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

He's scored a hattrick after being invisible for 70 minutes. You can argue that it is Haaland's job. I'd argue that you want your best player to be on the ball more often than a couple of times a game. Which is why the best players aren't played as strikers. There's a reason that you find no strikers if you go through the commonly agreed top 10 - 20 players in history. And if you find one then he's had a role in which he was much more involved, e. g. R9.

Thing is, in the Messi era you never had to make that distinction because the best playmaker in the world was also the best goal scorer. Cristiano was a similar case in his younger years. But before them, it was always playmakers that were rated the highest. I mean, you already mentioned KdB and I believe this is very telling. He's nowhere near in terms of stats but when you watch City and both players are on the pitch, it sinks in that he's the focal point of this team, the one everyone runs through when he's on the pitch. And many of the young playmaker talents emerging right now have the potential to be better than him.

That’s just not true, Cristiano’s most successful part of his career was playing as or like a striker and when he played as a winger he was more like Mbappé is now. Van Basten, Gerd Muller, Eusebio, Puskas, Romario would make most people’s top 10 or 20 as well as Cristiano, a top 20 would include as many strikers as playmakers for most people. Strikers have always be valued, for over a hundred years at this point.