Nikola Milenkovic

Ekeke said:
No, you don't know what a CB is supposed to do therefore you assume Smalling doesnt.

Players who arent trained well enough on the training pitch to do their job arent going to be saved by a CB telling them to do something. Its not practiced, its not in their muscle memory, they arent good at it and its going to fail. A CB can only call on things they already know from the correct tactics, training and organization. They cannot fix anything the players dont already know.

The manager can fix the organization, tactics, players, etc because the buck stops with them. A CB can ask, or tell but when the players around them still fail all they can really do is try to cover those players. Thats what Smalling does. He moves into many positions to cover our players being in the wrong position and rarely do other players react and cover his position. People who dont understand that defending is a team issue and that each time a CB covers someone else's mistake, someone has to come over and cover their position will blame Smalling because he's no longer where they would expect a CB to be. To them its a case of a CB standing in the middle of their own box all game. But thats not how it works in professional football. Positions are dynamic and if your fullback is out of position someone has to come across and confront the player who would otherwise have 20 yards to himself. Thats good play, not bad play. Bad play is when the rest of the team don't cover for that CB moving to cover someone else's like he does for them.
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Really dont know where to start with this cos what you have written is just nonsense.

Every top defense has a defensive leader, which is why players like Baresi, Maldini, Nesta, blanc, Cannavaro, carvalho, Rio, etc were revered even when their individual abilities were in decline, but according to you such players are not needed.

I advise you focus more on details when watching games and not just stare at the colors of the jerseys.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
There is nothing spectacular about the development of those players.

- Stones was a starting CB for Everton and a regular form the NT before joing City. He was desirable enough to Mourinho two season earlier that he fell out with Chelsea board over him. Pep simply does not develop defenders and is evident in how much he has spent in recruiting his backline, including Laporte, Walker and Mendy. That backline is four of the most expensive PL defenders.

- Sane you claim has reach unexpected levels due to development under Guardiola but same manager saw it fit to spend 60m on Mahrez and drop Sane to the bench. The more likely truth is that Guardiola himself recognized the limitations of Sane and decided to get a better quality player to replace him. The claimed record breaking level was not enough to get him on the WC squad

- Jesus was initially brought in to replace Aguero cos Pep was not satisfied with Kun, but despite his 'record breaking' development he has been relegated in the pecking order behind Kun. Now Pep is singing a different tune on how Aguero can help jesus succeed him.

- Sterling is the only one you can make a case for but he is more of an exception than the norm and thus cannot be used to conclude that Guardiola develops players.

What Guardiola is good at is that he has a clear system of play he expects of his team and buys players that are well suited to it. Thus, when given the needed resources, he is able to get the best out of his system while getting the best out of his players. It is unlikely for a player that excels in Guardiola's system to perform better out of it. That is simply a fit between system and player and should not be misconstrued for individual player development. The latter can be carried over to other teams while the former cannot.

Guardiola deserves credit but you are giving credit for the wrong reason.
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:lol: He won the league with those players. You're really clutching at straws to deliberately remain in denial about Pep's superiority at City in developing individual players and the team as compared to Mourinho at United. Stones was expensive and hence no development required. Completely devoid of any sound logic whatsoever.

Meanwhile, other than the posters who idolise Mourinho, everyone else, United fans, pundits, media, acknowledge these facts.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
Really dont know where to start with this cos what you have written is just nonsense.

Every top defense has a defensive leader, which is why players like Baresi, Maldini, Nesta, blanc, Cannavaro, carvalho, Rio, etc were revered even when their individual abilities were in decline, but according to you such players are not needed.

I advise you focus more on details when watching games and not just stare at the colors of the jerseys.
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Of course its nonsense to someone who doesnt understand how to defend.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
:lol: He won the league with those players. You're really clutching at straws to deliberately remain in denial about Pep's superiority at City in developing individual players and the team as compared to Mourinho at United. Stones was expensive and hence no development required. Completely devoid of any sound logic whatsoever.

Meanwhile, other than the posters who idolise Mourinho, everyone else, United fans, pundits, media, acknowledge these facts.
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This is not about Mourinho and the fact that you are trying to make it about him shows the bias in your opinion. There is simply no evidence in support of your claims.

If you made the same claim with Klopp or Poch, I would tend to agree with you, as there is ample evidence in support of them actually developing players. Even Mourinho has evidence of his accomplishments with developing defensive talents (e.g. Varane, Santon etc) but has little to offer on the offensive end (beyond improving the defensive discipline of attacking players)

Guardiola does not do that and has not been known for doing that. He is more notorious for playing players out of position in a bid to shoe horn them into his system. Pep buys developed players and puts them in a system that get the best out of them. He is good at doing so and has been successful doing so. Trying to paint him as some player developing managers is simply false accolade that would only be ascribed by one of his fan bois.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
He is the guy that understands the game and gets the backline functioning as one. In most cases they rely more on positioning than athleticism to win possession (though the truly great ones excel at both). When he is absent, the quality of the defence seems to drop significantly more than the missing individual quality.

On the pitch, you can see them communicating and directing other defenders and GK e.g. marking assignment, correcting mistakes, drawing attention to potential threats etc. A clear example is seen with VVD or Kompany
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So basically a defender that points and shouts. Man, even Lindelof does those things.
You have been banging on a about how a defensive leader will transform our defense, lead, organise, instruct, but one can't help but think you are being unrealistic and thinking about a defender that barely exist.
Defending goes far beyond leading; quality, coaching and system play far bigger roles and it is not even close.
Those things you mentioned might help at set pieces and when the ball is dead, but in reality, it changes little. The manager coaches and instils his style, that mentality and organisation. Defender's familarity with eachother's strengths are weaknesses play a bigger role too.
Great defences are made at the training ground, not on the pitch. Shouting and pointing in split-second defensive situations helps at times, but it might also lead to confusion. The defence usually have over four members and there is no way one person would be able to instruct all of them on what to do, or get them functioning as one in split-second situations. Like I said, a great defence is made on the training ground, defenders should know their roles, what to expect from their partners(through coaching) and the approach to dealing with defensive situations(system and style).
What a leader realistically does is offer presence, provide cover for his teammates and take charge. That is what Kompany does, that is what VVD does, Smalling is very good at it, but ultimately, it makes no difference when there is no system and proper coaching in place.
Defensive quality is liable to drop when a regular member is taking out of it, not because so member is a 'leader' or anything like that.
 
Ekeke said:
Of course its nonsense to someone who doesnt understand how to defend.
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What you wrote IS nonsense to anyone with a measure of understanding of the game.

Smalling, even with his physical gifts, is a mediocre CB cos he takes up bad positioning and makes poor decisions. A recent example is the penalty he gave away against Everton, where he decided to lunge in instead of staying on his feet and forcing the striker towards the base baseline. To suggest that Smalling's shortcomings are from covering for others is just ridiculous.

I know what a good CB should do cos I have seen good CBs doing them. Football is not like basketball where you repeatedly do the same thing over and over again and thus rely heavily on muscle memory. Football starts in the head and no amount of muscle memory can fix bad judgement. Great players are great thinkers of the game.

Managers can coach off the pitch but some adjustments and correction can only be done in real time and on the pitch. For example, if a particular defender is out of line, the manager cannot see it from the bench and only someone else on the line can call his attention to it.

The ability to get others to follow your directions is an element of a good leader. If others arent following your guidance then you are probably not a leader of that group.
 
Mcking said:
So basically a defender that points and shouts.
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It is always amusing when people misrepresent others. Not sure if its being disingenous or just an innocent lack of comprehension of English language.
Man, even Lindelof does those things.
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He tries to but lacks the quality to make the needed difference.
Mcking said:
You have been banging on a about how a defensive leader will transform our defense, lead, organise, instruct, but one can't help but think you are being unrealistic and thinking about a defender that barely exist.
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There are many such players around and its more a question of avaialbility and price than existence
Mcking said:
Defending goes far beyond leading; quality, coaching and system play far bigger roles and it is not even close.
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There are different aspects but what we are currently sorely lacking is a defensive leader
Mcking said:
Those things you mentioned might help at set pieces and when the ball is dead, but in reality, it changes little. The manager coaches and instils his style, that mentality and organisation. Defender's familarity with eachother's strengths are weaknesses play a bigger role too.
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It goes beyond dead ball environment
Mcking said:
Great defences are made at the training ground, not on the pitch. Shouting and pointing in split-second defensive situations helps at times, but it might also lead to confusion. The defence usually have over four members and there is no way one person would be able to instruct all of them on what to do, or get them functioning as one in split-second situations. Like I said, a great defence is made on the training ground, defenders should know their roles, what to expect from their partners(through coaching) and the approach to dealing with defensive situations(system and style).
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No amount of training can replicate an actual game. One of the traits of a great defence is the ability to adapt in real time. Minor in game adjustment can make big differences. Also some instruction are better delivered by another player than the manager.
Mcking said:
What a leader realistically does is offer presence, provide cover for his teammates and take charge. That is what Kompany does, that is what VVD does, Smalling is very good at it, but ultimately, it makes no difference when there is no system and proper coaching in place.
Defensive quality is liable to drop when a regular member is taking out of it, not because so member is a 'leader' or anything like that.
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They do more than that and that is why several older defenders are still sought despite their decline in quality. Some examples
- Capello signs cannavaro at 33 joining madrid
- Mourinho signs 32yr old carvalho for Madrid
- SAF signs 35yr old Blanc
- Godin still marshals Atletico defence despite decline in his individual defensive abilities
- Lovren improving as an individual defender after the arrival of VVD

There are many examples of what a defensive leader does to a unit and the fact that great defensive coaches seek to recruit and establish such is evidence in support.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
This is not about Mourinho and the fact that you are trying to make it about him shows the bias in your opinion. There is simply no evidence in support of your claims.

If you made the same claim with Klopp or Poch, I would tend to agree with you, as there is ample evidence in support of them actually developing players. Even Mourinho has evidence of his accomplishments with developing defensive talents (e.g. Varane, Santon etc) but has little to offer on the offensive end (beyond improving the defensive discipline of attacking players)

Guardiola does not do that and has not been known for doing that. He is more notorious for playing players out of position in a bid to shoe horn them into his system. Pep buys developed players and puts them in a system that get the best out of them. He is good at doing so and has been successful doing so. Trying to paint him as some player developing managers is simply false accolade that would only be ascribed by one of his fan bois.
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Except all the evidence is backing me up. Your ignorance of the facts won't make them go away I'm afraid.

:lol: You speaking of bias of all people. FFS. Head truly buried.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
There is nothing spectacular about the development of those players.

- Stones was a starting CB for Everton and a regular form the NT before joing City. He was desirable enough to Mourinho two season earlier that he fell out with Chelsea board over him. Pep simply does not develop defenders and is evident in how much he has spent in recruiting his backline, including Laporte, Walker and Mendy. That backline is four of the most expensive PL defenders.

- Sane you claim has reach unexpected levels due to development under Guardiola but same manager saw it fit to spend 60m on Mahrez and drop Sane to the bench. The more likely truth is that Guardiola himself recognized the limitations of Sane and decided to get a better quality player to replace him. The claimed record breaking level was not enough to get him on the WC squad

- Jesus was initially brought in to replace Aguero cos Pep was not satisfied with Kun, but despite his 'record breaking' development he has been relegated in the pecking order behind Kun. Now Pep is singing a different tune on how Aguero can help jesus succeed him.

- Sterling is the only one you can make a case for but he is more of an exception than the norm and thus cannot be used to conclude that Guardiola develops players.

What Guardiola is good at is that he has a clear system of play he expects of his team and buys players that are well suited to it. Thus, when given the needed resources, he is able to get the best out of his system while getting the best out of his players. It is unlikely for a player that excels in Guardiola's system to perform better out of it. That is simply a fit between system and player and should not be misconstrued for individual player development. The latter can be carried over to other teams while the former cannot.

Guardiola deserves credit but you are giving credit for the wrong reason.
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If this level was not expected from them, why did they spend £200 mill on those players? And this was pre-Neymar to PSG.

In my opinion, Raheem Sterling is a good example. He was fanastic in the Premier League at the age of 18, and probably Liverpools best player after Suarez the season Gerrard slipped. I would expect him to be a lot better at the age of 23.

Does Pep make the most of him? Yes.
Is it due to their system? Yes.
Have Pep improved him greatly as a player compared to what another manager would? Probably not!

A huge part of Sterling looking better is also the fact that while he at Liverpool played next to one world class player in a system that suited him, he now plays next to 10 great players. Players like de Bruyne, Bernardo Silva, David Silva etc are more likely to get the best out of Sterling than Henderson, Lucas and Joe Allen. They are not great because of Pep, but because oilmoney let them buy the best players. Furthermore, he is four-five years older. You would expect him to develop a lot during this time.

The same is the case for the rest of them.
 
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cheeky_backheel said:
It is always amusing when people misrepresent others. Not sure if its being disingenous or just an innocent lack of comprehension of English language.
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Misrepresent? I simplified the last part of your post and everything points to the result I came up with.
He tries to but lacks the quality to make the needed difference.
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He doesn't just try to, he does it but as you stated, he lacks the quality to complement, which is obviously another matter. He instructs his teammates on what to do many times, but it ultimately makes little difference - proving my point. One latest example is Matic on Gundogan iirc. The defender you describe will make little difference if his teammates doesn't have a clue - due to poor coaching - or lacks the desired quality.
There are many such players around and its more a question of avaialbility and price than existence
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There are many of course - like Lindelof, but barely few, if not none can achieve the bar you are setting here.
There are different aspects but what we are currently sorely lacking is a defensive leader
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No, we are sorely lacking quality and defensive organization. Those two neither equal nor mean a defensive leader.
It goes beyond dead ball environment
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It does, but makes little difference outside dead ball situations - even in dead ball situations - when there is no proper coaching and organization in place. Remember Chelsea's first goal this season? One tried to lead, his teammate didn't follow. Might be due to quality or poor coaching. That goal would probably have been conceded even if we had Baresi that day. The best a defender can do there is take charge.
No amount of training can replicate an actual game. One of the traits of a great defence is the ability to adapt in real time. Minor in game adjustment can make big differences. Also some instruction are better delivered by another player than the manager.
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What have been done in training is meant to be replicated in the actual game. I agree that the trait of a great defence is the ability to adapt, but each member of the defence should possess that quality. One defender would make no difference if his teammates can't make adjustments and need him to always bark instructions at them. It would be chaos.

They do more than that and that is why several older defenders are still sought despite their decline in quality. Some examples
- Capello signs cannavaro at 33 joining madrid
- Mourinho signs 32yr old carvalho for Madrid
- SAF signs 35yr old Blanc
- Godin still marshals Atletico defence despite decline in his individual defensive abilities
- Lovren improving as an individual defender after the arrival of VVD

There are many examples of what a defensive leader does to a unit and the fact that great defensive coaches seek to recruit and establish such is evidence in support.
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The might have been signed for their experience, quality on the pitch and leadership in the dressing room rather than the unrealistic leadership on the pitch you are talking about.
Godin marshals the Atletico backline because he is their top defender. They have a very good defensive manager, defensive player and defensive system. They still look staunch even without Godin.
Lovren has improved because he now have a CB that takes charge - which is what VVD do and which is also what Smalling do. Liverpool are far more conservative now. Lovren do look decent for Croatia btw.
 
A young defender who will be tops. I think we should bring him in for 40/50million if we can get him for this.
 
cheeky_backheel said:
These guys will not come cheap and doubt they will address the needed leadership and organization
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Perhaps not, but their age doesn't mean they can't bring some of that, I mean Smalling just turned 29 and is in his 9th season here, but he's still not a leader or organizer.
 
So he's the Croatian Santi Mina

There I was thinking he was the Serbian Nikola Milenkovic. Shows what I know
 
Looks like he had a mare against Sassulo including being booked twice, sent off in a 3-3 draw playing CB

First goal didnt come till the 61st minute and then they all flew in
 
Ekeke said:
Looks like he had a mare against Sassulo including being booked twice, sent off in a 3-3 draw playing CB

First goal didnt come till the 61st minute and then they all flew in
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I watched the game. He lost his marking for the second goal, he should have stuck with Babacar who scored. The other goals were long shots that should have been closed down by the midfield. His second yellow was for something he said to the ref after Biraghi made a foul. Had a few good tackles, interceptions and clearances but the red card and lost marking on the second goal made it a match to forget for him.

Worth mentioning is that it was the first game of the season for him at CB. He's played RB all season.
 
Was at fault for Babacar's goal for sure. But I'm still a big fan and think we should sign him. SerieA is a very demanding league for young defenders and he's been excellent for a midtable team. Only turned 21 last month too, the potential is huge.
 
Milenkovic is fearless like Vidic. Goes to win every ball whether it be in the air or on the ground. The only difference is he is a very good tackler who can win the ball fairly. He is the best up and coming CB around, imo.
 
Bestietom said:
Milenkovic is fearless like Vidic. Goes to win every ball whether it be in the air or on the ground. The only difference is he is a very good tackler who can win the ball fairly. He is the best up and coming CB around, imo.
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If read similar things in an article I posted earlier in this thread and after reading it and watching a few videos I like him and thhiink he would become a good signing for us. Also being 6'5" will be a pus for Jose.
 
Bestietom said:
Milenkovic is fearless like Vidic. Goes to win every ball whether it be in the air or on the ground. The only difference is he is a very good tackler who can win the ball fairly. He is the best up and coming CB around, imo.
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Last summer there did not appear to be many good options available. People kept mentioning Maguire and Alderweireld. Now there appears to be quite a few really good young players. Milenkovic, Skriniar (guess he was an option a year ago too), Militao, de Ligt, Lucas Hernandez (played more at centre back and has a clause) and Andersen have emerged as alternatives.

I hope we sell two or three and buy two new defenders. One experienced and one young.
 
Coupled with another CB this would be a decent signing. But signing just Milenkovic to solve our CB problems wouldnt work. A young inexpereinced centre back thrown into a team as chaotic as ours would result in disaster. You need a stable set up for young players to nuture in especially at CB where a experienced partner is must.
 
Suvaid666 said:
Coupled with another CB this would be a decent signing. But signing just Milenkovic to solve our CB problems wouldnt work. A young inexpereinced centre back thrown into a team as chaotic as ours would result in disaster. You need a stable set up for young players to nuture in especially at CB where a experienced partner is must.
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Agree with this and that is why I think he would be good paired with Koulibaly.
 
Bestietom said:
Milenkovic is fearless like Vidic. Goes to win every ball whether it be in the air or on the ground. The only difference is he is a very good tackler who can win the ball fairly. He is the best up and coming CB around, imo.
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You think Vidic was a poor tackler? If the boy becomes 3/4 of the defender Vidic was, we shouldn't hesitate.
 
Eric's Seagull said:
Agree with this and that is why I think he would be good paired with Koulibaly.
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Dont think we can afford Koulibaly+ Milenkovic. Thats potentially 150 mil on just centre backs. We need to address our RW and CDM. Its either just Koulibaly or something like Toby+Milenkovic but knowing Woody we'll probably end up with Maguire.
 
Suvaid666 said:
Dont think we can afford Koulibaly+ Milenkovic. Thats potentially 150 mil on just centre backs. We need to address our RW and CDM. Its either just Koulibaly or something like Toby+Milenkovic but knowing Woody we'll probably end up with Maguire.
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This is what I fear.

Although I think Woody should have a hard think about how much it will cost to get us challenging and spend whatever it takes to get us back up there. I agree about the right wing situation which I can't understand why we haven't addressed a long time ago. Although I am against signing older players with a few years in the tank I would take Perisic for the right, I think he would give us 3 years to bed Chong in and then I think he would be ready to claim a starting spot.

If it came to it due to limited funds I'd have to go for Toby+ Milenkovic as you said, as I think we need 2 quality central defenders in there. I've had a feeling Woody has been after Maguire for a while which I don't want, I heard we were quoted £60m but I think that price has probably gone up a fair few million. As for cdm not sure but I have always liked N'Didi and an advantage is he already knows the league so would take less time to settle.
 
We wont buy Koulibaly and another one. If we buy two CBs, it will be two younger ones that are also cheaper for the price of one top CB. Milenkovic + Militao for example. A top CB like Koulibaly or some very good ones with huge potential like Skriniar and De Ligt will cost 100m alone.
 
Eric's Seagull said:
This is what I fear.

Although I think Woody should have a hard think about how much it will cost to get us challenging and spend whatever it takes to get us back up there. I agree about the right wing situation which I can't understand why we haven't addressed a long time ago. Although I am against signing older players with a few years in the tank I would take Perisic for the right, I think he would give us 3 years to bed Chong in and then I think he would be ready to claim a starting spot.

If it came to it due to limited funds I'd have to go for Toby+ Milenkovic as you said, as I think we need 2 quality central defenders in there. I've had a feeling Woody has been after Maguire for a while which I don't want, I heard we were quoted £60m but I think that price has probably gone up a fair few million. As for cdm not sure but I have always liked N'Didi and an advantage is he already knows the league so would take less time to settle.
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In January winter window, it's a must as we wanted Varane or Koulibaly for 90-100m euro last summer, if we can use 100m left in summer for the winter so that'll go on 2018/19 transfer window spending book instead of 2019/20 so we can start fresh again in 2019 summer with zero spending, to spend another 150m for RW, DM and cheap CB like Toby, alongside with the sale of players like Rojo and Jones so realistically we could expect 30-45m from the sales to cover 150m+ spending.
 
Eric's Seagull said:
Agree with this and that is why I think he would be good paired with Koulibaly.
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If we sign both Milenkovic and Koulibaly, then our defence potentially will look in very good shape. Just hope we don't lose sight of the attacking reinforcements that are also required.
 
izec said:
We wont buy Koulibaly and another one. If we buy two CBs, it will be two younger ones that are also cheaper for the price of one top CB. Milenkovic + Militao for example. A top CB like Koulibaly or some very good ones with huge potential like Skriniar and De Ligt will cost 100m alone.
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Or Toby and a young player.
 
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