NBA 2022-2023

charlton66 said:
I think Steph's peak years are still happening.
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I don't disagree, and if he keeps this up I think he passes Wilt. I also think he passes Kobe if he can keep going for a few more years at this level.

I think I have him in my top 15, with plenty of time to move up although that top 7 (maybe 8) is going to be a hell of a tough nut to crack.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Wilt
Oscar
West
Shaq
Hakeem
Steph
Moses
 
WI_Red said:
Do you not rate Russell?
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I do. Wilt as well. I just didn't want to bring them up because I know that people (not necessarily anybody in particular) seem eager to diminish both with the same inane "played in an era where players were mechanics" tripe. If that's someone's view point (which I disagree with) then I still don't see Curry ahead of the five I mentioned.

I have the following as the top ten:

Jordan
Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem

I personally don't see a strong argument for Steph being a better individual player than Hakeem, unless he wins another title as the undisputed best option on the team.

In my opinion, he may end up at the back end of the top 10, but while I really like Curry, I just don't see how he's a top 5 player.
 
WI_Red said:
I can see leaving off Oscar, but he was just such a complete player.

Disagree about Wilt disappearing in the playoffs. It's hard to compare pts/reb/ast from reg season to playoffs (and between era's) because of how the game changes, but advanced metrics should take that into account and help a bit. His career PER is in the top 20, but is brought down by those bad last years when he was in decline (as an aside, can you imagine him with current conditioning techniques and if he actually took care of his body???) so let's look at those peek years (23-30) for him and Steph (and also MJ and LBJ b/c they are absurd).

AgeWiltStephJordanLeBron
23​
27​
28.1​
24.3​
24​
26.7​
20.5​
28.4​
37.4​
25​
29.7​
18.8​
29.9​
28.6​
26​
24.5​
31.7​
23.7​
27​
31.3​
22.3​
32​
30.3​
28​
27.1​
27.1​
27.2​
28.1​
29​
26​
22.3​
30.1​
31​
30​
25.3​
22.6​
"baseball"
25.3​
Avg27.622.6
29.6​
28.6​
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It's also worth mentioning that Wilt's role changed over the years, which hurt his averages. The second iteration of Wilt (when he won his second title) wasn't a scorer because he was tasked with being a facilitator. His shot attempts were way down and he wasn't necessarily bothered about keeping his averages up.

Holding the 2 titles against him seems unfair when he was up against Russell and the Celtics. Strength of opponents matter and very few all time great players would have won as much has they been up against that Celtics team.
 
Since we're doing top 10s.

Here we go.

MJ
LeAncient
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Shaq
Steph
Kobe

I have Wilt at 11 and Hakeem at 12.
 
charlton66 said:
Since we're doing top 10s.

Here we go.

MJ
LeAncient
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Shaq
Steph
Kobe

I have Wilt at 11 and Hakeem at 12.
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Isn't making random lists the best thing about sports :)

I don't hate this list, but I just don't see how Steph is above Kobe yet (let alone Wilt).
 
WI_Red said:
I love these arguments!

(My top 10, not really in order)
Jordan, Chamberlain, LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Oscar

@charlton66 , who is he replacing?
@elmo , which 6 is he replacing?
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MJ & Russell - tie at number one for me. Russell for being the ultimate winner and MJ for totally changing the game from a big man dominated one to one that’s dominated by athletic wings.

Steph - 3rd all time at worst. He’s the ultimate offensive player in NBA and it’s not even close. You basically have to double on him once he cross the half way line, that’s how ridiculous his shooting is. And we’re not even talking about how he improves his team by being willing to find the open man which will always happen because of the sheer gravity that Steph has on the defense.

Wilt - Probably the most talented player ever but he’s the ultimate stat padder and it comes with a detriment to his team.

LeBron - He’s a great player but he gets points docked off for being a terrible GM and even more for taking 14 seconds of every possession for him to score or get an assist while pretending he’s a team first player.

Kareem - His longevity is incredible and speaks for itself.

Magic - Best point guard of all time even with a shortened career.

Duncan - Spurs are basically relevant at all because of him. He’s so quiet and you don’t realise he’s killing you until you check the stats sheet and realised he just hit you for 20 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks

Bird - So great that everyone forgot he’s white.

Jerry West - The logo and the real reason Lakers are even relevant at all. He would probably have been way higher if the 3 point line existed when he played.

too lazy to list down the reasons why but 11-15 are as below

Kobe
Hakeem
Chuck
Shaq
Oscat
 
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On most consensus lists, Steph is between 9 and 12, Kobe is 8 to 11.

Having Steph above Kobe is a very close to median outcome, Kobe has gotten a bit overrated in recent years.
 
elmo said:
MJ & Russell - tie at number one for me. Russell for being the ultimate winner and MJ for totally changing the game from a big man dominated one to one that’s dominated by athletic wings.

Steph - 3rd all time at worst. He’s the ultimate offensive player in NBA and it’s not even close. You basically have to double on him once he cross the half way line, that’s how ridiculous his shooting is. And we’re not even talking about how he improves his team by being willing to find the open man which will always happen because of the sheer gravity that Steph has on the defense.

Wilt - Probably the most talented player ever but he’s the ultimate stat padder and it comes with a detriment to his team.

LeBron - He’s a great player but he gets points docked off for being a terrible GM and even more for taking 14 seconds of every possession for him to score or get an assist while pretending he’s a team first player.

Kareem - His longevity is incredible and speaks for itself.

Magic - Best point guard of all time even with a shortened career.

Duncan - Spurs are basically relevant at all because of him. He’s so quiet and you don’t realise he’s killing you until you check the stats sheet and realised he just hit you for 20 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks

Bird - So great that everyone forgot he’s white.

Jerry West - The logo and the real reason Lakers are even relevant at all. He would probably have been way higher if the 3 point line existed when he played.
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:wenger:
 
elmo said:
MJ & Russell - tie at number one for me. Russell for being the ultimate winner and MJ for totally changing the game from a big man dominated one to one that’s dominated by athletic wings.

Steph - 3rd all time at worst. He’s the ultimate offensive player in NBA and it’s not even close. You basically have to double on him once he cross the half way line, that’s how ridiculous his shooting is. And we’re not even talking about how he improves his team by being willing to find the open man which will always happen because of the sheer gravity that Steph has on the defense.

Wilt - Probably the most talented player ever but he’s the ultimate stat padder and it comes with a detriment to his team.

LeBron - He’s a great player but he gets points docked off for being a terrible GM and even more for taking 14 seconds of every possession for him to score or get an assist while pretending he’s a team first player.

Kareem - His longevity is incredible and speaks for itself.

Magic - Best point guard of all time even with a shortened career.

Duncan - Spurs are basically relevant at all because of him. He’s so quiet and you don’t realise he’s killing you until you check the stats sheet and realised he just hit you for 20 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks

Bird - So great that everyone forgot he’s white.

Jerry West - The logo and the real reason Lakers are even relevant at all. He would probably have been way higher if the 3 point line existed when he played.
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How can you have Steph as 3rd best at worst yet say Magic was the best PG ever? Also, if you think Kareem was just about longevity....oh boy.

This is where I think the "old man" in me comes out. I watched everyone on the above list, other than Russell and Wilt, in their primes and I'm sorry, Steph is just not in the same league...yet. Beyond that, the league is just different.

Can you imagine MJ/Bird/Magic playing with the way things are currently reffed? Bird's career was essentially ended by injuries from getting the shit kicked out of him. I think Walton is also a great "what if he played now" guy and I think Sabonis is in the top 10 if he came over in his prime. What a player he was!!
 
charlton66 said:
Scroll back a few pages in this thread. Me, @Desert Eagle and @Ladron de redcafe and a few others had this exact same discussion.
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Interesting, thanks! My only addition to that conversation would be to agree that Kobe's defense has been overrated over time, but when he was fully engaged, he was an elite 1:! defensive player in short bursts. That is why MJ is the undisputed GOAT, he never took plays off, especially in the playoffs. He brought elite energy to both ends of the court in more than short bursts.
 
Russell and Wilt are also both incredibly overrated (in terms of being certain for top-5/10 respectively) If you do desire, you can give them points for being groundbreakers and have them in the top 10 but the depth of the league back then was incredibly weak.

Basketball has also gotten way more global in the past couple of decades in terms of the talent coming through. It is the equivalent of football before the 60s.
 
WI_Red said:
How can you have Steph as 3rd best at worst yet say Magic was the best PG ever? Also, if you think Kareem was just about longevity....oh boy.

This is where I think the "old man" in me comes out. I watched everyone on the above list, other than Russell and Wilt, in their primes and I'm sorry, Steph is just not in the same league...yet. Beyond that, the league is just different.

Can you imagine MJ/Bird/Magic playing with the way things are currently reffed? Bird's career was essentially ended by injuries from getting the shit kicked out of him. I think Walton is also a great "what if he played now" guy and I think Sabonis is in the top 10 if he came over in his prime. What a player he was!!
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Magic’s the better point guard but Steph is the better player because of how ridiculous he is at shooting and drawing double teams

And if we’re going on hypothetical scenarios, Shaq would fly up my list if he could have Kobe’s work ethics and kept himself in shape.
 
elmo said:
Magic’s the better point guard but Steph is the better player because of how ridiculous he is at shooting and drawing double teams

And if we’re going on hypothetical scenarios, Shaq would fly up my list if he could have Kobe’s work ethics and kept himself in shape.
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Steph is not in Magic's universe. Of course Steph is the superior 3 point shooter but Magic was not a slouch shooting the ball either. Their TS numbers are pretty close (.61 for Magic to .62 for Curry). Also, do you really think Magic did not draw double teams? Part of what made him special was his ability to draw those and use his height to see over the top and make the ridiculous passes he is known for. Anyways, I doubt we are going to agree on this, but that's what makes sports fun!


There are alot of what-if's in sports (it is what makes debating this stuff so much fun), but at least Shaq had control over his "what-if". Bird had no control over his era or how physical it was. Steph would likely not have lasted more than 2-3 season in the old NBA. The league is better for the changes, and I am glad we get to see the skill level of players shine and not be diminished by brutal fouls.
 
Gazza said:
“not in the same league” / “not in the same universe” sounds like overegging things a tad?
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Guilty as charged. I “may” have overreacted when I saw someone ranking step as 3rd all time at worst. :wenger:
 
SinNombre said:
Russell and Wilt are also both incredibly overrated (in terms of being certain for top-5/10 respectively) If you do desire, you can give them points for being groundbreakers and have them in the top 10 but the depth of the league back then was incredibly weak.

Basketball has also gotten way more global in the past couple of decades in terms of the talent coming through. It is the equivalent of football before the 60s.
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I'm gonna have to hear that opinion from people who watched them play, I've only heard glowing reviews of both. Nostalgia is real of course, but we also have to consider they didn't have the benefits of the modern era either.

One torn ACL and your career was over. I might play a little differently in that era myself.
 
Come on guys. Curry himself wouldn't begin to argue that he's a top 3 player. He's in contention for the 3rd tier of all time greats but anyone can have him as a top 3 player when it means he'll have to supplant Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron (among others) is beyond me.

As far as individual accolades and team success go:
PlayerMVPsFMVPsTitles
Jordan566
Kareem626
Lebron444
Duncan235
Magic335
Curry214
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Come on guys. Curry himself wouldn't begin to argue that he's a top 3 player. He's in contention for the 3rd tier of all time greats but anyone can have him as a top 3 player when it means he'll have to supplant Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron (among others) is beyond me.

As far as individual accolades and team success go:
PlayerMVPsFMVPsTitles
Jordan566
Kareem626
Lebron444
Duncan235
Magic335
Curry214
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Overrated Bill Russell: 5/0*/11
* - They only had this award his last year
 
Gazza said:
:angel: Fair play and tbf it’s very enjoyable reading this discussion from people like you who have seen all these greats in their pomp
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Steady on my friend, I'm not that old :) . I saw MJ, Bird and Magic in their prime (as a young kid) and Kareem at the very end.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Come on guys. Curry himself wouldn't begin to argue that he's a top 3 player. He's in contention for the 3rd tier of all time greats but anyone can have him as a top 3 player when it means he'll have to supplant Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron (among others) is beyond me.

As far as individual accolades and team success go:
PlayerMVPsFMVPsTitles
Jordan566
Kareem626
Lebron444
Duncan235
Magic335
Curry214
Click to expand...
As much as I love watching Steph play, I do believe top 3 is a bridge too far.
 
WI_Red said:
Overrated Bill Russell: 5/0*/11
* - They only had this award his last year
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Number of teams = 8
Number of professional players globally < 50
Number of non-US countries with basketball as a major sport - ?? FIBA championships with stalwarts like Chile and Brazil
 
WI_Red said:
Overrated Bill Russell: 5/0*/11
* - They only had this award his last year
Click to expand...

Yeah Russell would have had the all time record had they had the FMVP in that era. Jordan's 6 would have been a distant second.
5 MVPs is also 2nd most to Kareem.

charlton66 said:
As much as I love watching Steph play, I do believe top 3 is a bridge too far.
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I think so. He's a transcendant all-time player. But top 3 is a huge claim.
 
SinNombre said:
Number of teams = 8
Number of professional players globally < 50
Number of non-US countries with basketball as a major sport - ?? FIBA championships with stalwarts like Chile and Brazil
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By that logic Babe Ruth/Lou Gherig/ Lefty Grove/ etc. cannot be in the conversation for best baseball players of all time. Transcendent talent is transcendent because it transcends eras.

Also, if your metric for ranking players is how good international talent is does that mean the first Dream Team era players should be taken out?
 
WI_Red said:
Steady on my friend, I'm not that old :) . I saw MJ, Bird and Magic in their prime (as a young kid) and Kareem at the very end.
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Alright coffin dodger :lol:

Someone made me feel really old the other day when I told them I was a T-Mac fan first before becoming a basketball fan. Followed him from Toronto to Orlando to the Rockets. He was like 'damn you've been watching basketball since the 90's? :eek:'
 
WeePat said:
Alright coffin dodger :lol:

Someone made me feel really old the other day when I told them I was a T-Mac fan first before becoming a basketball fan. Followed him from Toronto to Orlando to the Rockets. He was like 'damn you've been watching basketball since the 90's? :eek:'
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I saw George Best, Denis Law and Bobby Charlton live so I am old (well relatively).

Still a kid on the inside though.
 
charlton66 said:
I saw George Best, Denis Law and Bobby Charlton live so I am old (well relatively).

Still a kid on the inside though.
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Live for United or for the Aztecs/Earthquakes? That's a wide range of years spanning my parents grade school years to after my birth. ;)
 
WI_Red said:
Live for United or for the Aztecs/Earthquakes? That's a wide range of years spanning my parents grade school years to after my birth. ;)
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Live for United. Saw my first game at OT in the early 60s. My dad took me to see Utd vs City but he cheated me 'cause it was the Reserves. All I remember was that it was bloody cold, I had to stand for two hours and I wanted to go home. Saw my first real game probably around 65-66.
 
charlton66 said:
Live for United. Saw my first game at OT in the early 60s. My dad took me to see Utd vs City but he cheated me 'cause it was the Reserves. All I remember was that it was bloody cold, I had to stand for two hours and I wanted to go home. Saw my first real game probably around 65-66.
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Damn, you are old. Seriously though, it's those memories that are awesome. I remember my dad getting us tickets to go watch Showtime at it's prime. Magic and Kareem were little ants from our, literally, last row seats but for me it was the best present ever. I know now it cost a huge chunk of my parents limited budget back then which makes it all the more amazing of a memory.
 
Another home win. Decent performance from all the starters with a special shout out to Klay who shot 50% from the field and 40% from deep. Bench again was poor with everybody except JMG having a negative plus/minus. But a win is a win and at the moment can't be too choosy about how we get them.
 
I see the Lakers won again. They are now 2-8 with LeBron but 2-2 without him.

....and Russ is playing pretty decently since he started coming off the bench.
 
Just saw Embiid going with whole his weight into full open chest of Giannis and still end up on his ass, classic and shameless, that guy really loves to hit a ground after every contact.

 
SinNombre said:
Number of teams = 8
Number of professional players globally < 50
Number of non-US countries with basketball as a major sport - ?? FIBA championships with stalwarts like Chile and Brazil
Click to expand...

I'm just not sure I ever fully understood this thought process. When the NBA adds expansion teams, we hear about how championships don't mean as much because the league is diluted, despite the fact that you'll have to face the best teams in the final rounds of the playoffs.

In that era, it was the opposite of the expansion era. All the top talent were on the fewer number of teams. Russell had to face another top 10 all time player in Wilt every season. I'm not sure why the number of total teams in the league matters if you have to face an all time great to win the title.
 
Not sure about keeping Curry out of the 6-10 all-time bracket… that said, Doncic is different level, in perspective, Magic-like impact and numbers right now and yet difficult to predict if he will ever make Dallas a winning team? Cuban really needs top level help to assemble a ring caliber roster
 
Bill Russell did play with a far better squad in his Celtics days compared to Wilt's time in Philly/San Fran. Wilt moved to the Lakers in 1968 which was Bill's last season and saw the Celtics pull off a miraculous post-season run. Neither Bill nor Wilt did much in the Finals except rebound although Bill did lead his team in assists at 5.1 per. The Finals was basically a matchup of Havlicek vs West and Baylor vs Jones. HOF count: 5 for Boston* and 3 for LA. *Did not count Don Nelson as he made as a coach; Sanders didn't play much but does count.

Found this segment interesting for a clap back at noted Boston homer, Bill Simmons.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/index4f3e.html?p=4229

Going back to those years was this thing called a "territorial pick" which allowed a team to sacrifice it's first round selection to take a player within a geographical radius. Philly did such many times and is how they landed Wilt in 1959. Philly argued in 1955 that Wilt playing high school ball in the local area he was subject to territorial rights in the future, which had not been the case before but Wilt was arguably the first teenage phenom in the sport. There was a fear Auerbach would use his leverage to entice Wilt to a school within the Boston territorial area, as would numerous other owners into their defined areas. Read more about it in the LA Times link below; if unable to open/view I can attempt to copy/paste into a spoiler post.

An interesting side note is St Louis drafted Bill third overall in 1956 and immediately traded him to Boston. Face palm.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/bl...chamberlain-while-he-was-still-in-high-school
 
Bepi said:
Not sure about keeping Curry out of the 6-10 all-time bracket… that said, Doncic is different level, in perspective, Magic-like impact and numbers right now and yet difficult to predict if he will ever make Dallas a winning team? Cuban really needs top level help to assemble a ring caliber roster
Click to expand...

I feel like I'm the asshole here when it comes to all the Doncic love. He is a fantastic player and someone I love to watch play, but he has only been in the league 5 years and has won exactly 2 playoff series. He should not be close to the all-time great discussion yet, although in 5-6 years he may be at the top of the discussion. For comparison, Magic won a title his rookie year and his clinching game 6 performance in the finals is legendary. Luka may be at MAgic's level one day, hell he may pass him, but they are not on the same level right now.
 
MrMarcello said:
Bill Russell did play with a far better squad in his Celtics days compared to Wilt's time in Philly/San Fran. Wilt moved to the Lakers in 1968 which was Bill's last season and saw the Celtics pull off a miraculous post-season run. Neither Bill nor Wilt did much in the Finals except rebound although Bill did lead his team in assists at 5.1 per. The Finals was basically a matchup of Havlicek vs West and Baylor vs Jones. HOF count: 5 for Boston* and 3 for LA. *Did not count Don Nelson as he made as a coach; Sanders didn't play much but does count.

Found this segment interesting for a clap back at noted Boston homer, Bill Simmons.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/index4f3e.html?p=4229

Going back to those years was this thing called a "territorial pick" which allowed a team to sacrifice it's first round selection to take a player within a geographical radius. Philly did such many times and is how they landed Wilt in 1959. Philly argued in 1955 that Wilt playing high school ball in the local area he was subject to territorial rights in the future, which had not been the case before but Wilt was arguably the first teenage phenom in the sport. There was a fear Auerbach would use his leverage to entice Wilt to a school within the Boston territorial area, as would numerous other owners into their defined areas. Read more about it in the LA Times link below; if unable to open/view I can attempt to copy/paste into a spoiler post.

An interesting side note is St Louis drafted Bill third overall in 1956 and immediately traded him to Boston. Face palm.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/bl...chamberlain-while-he-was-still-in-high-school
Click to expand...

I think someone brought it up earlier in this thread, but West's numbers would have been insane with a 3 pt line. It's a shame he only has the one title, but those Celts teams were a buzz saw. I just went down a rabbit hole of watching the 4th qtr of that game and what a performance by West in that 4th, just couldn't get it over the line.

 
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