NBA 2022-2023

[ExoduS]

Because he's white and European, so he doesn't get the attention he deserves in the media, further boosting the voter fatigue.
Kendrick Perkins calling out that voting for him is racist (!), and basically saying that Dirk and Nash only won because of racism against black players(!).

It's a bit tongue in cheek from my side - but I do believe (white) European players don't get the praise/hype/attention they deserve.

I think Perkins comments were very inappropriate and perhaps they affected Jokic mentally a bit, but I don't think that swung voting at all. Actually many journalists got upset at Perkins.

 

[sport2793]

Because he's white and European, so he doesn't get the attention he deserves in the media, further boosting the voter fatigue.
Kendrick Perkins calling out that voting for him is racist (!), and basically saying that Dirk and Nash only won because of racism against black players(!).

It's a bit tongue in cheek from my side - but I do believe (white) European players don't get the praise/hype/attention they deserve.

I disagree as I point to you Luka Doncic, who constantly gets sucked off by national media, and his team didn't even make the playoffs this year.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Voter fatigue has always been a thing though - as much as I loved him D-Rose had no business winning it over James when he did.

Opinions that Jokic was completely robbed are also over the top; Embiid had a strong regular season and there was little between them, both were worthy of winning it imo.

Rose lead a Chicago team that had nowhere near the talent of Miami to 62 wins. Lebron joined forces with Wade and Bosh (all 3 were top 5 in PER the previous season) and had what was by a comfortable distance the most stacked team in the league. Only to get 58 wins.

Rose isn't an all time great player but he absolutely deserved it over LeBron that season.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I disagree as I point to you Luka Doncic, who constantly gets sucked off by national media, and his team didn't even make the playoffs this year.

He gets criticised by specific members of the media quite a bit, so I don't see it as him being "sucked off" when he gets praised for his outstanding play.

 

[R'hllor]

I think Perkins comments were very inappropriate and perhaps they affected Jokic mentally a bit, but I don't think that swung voting at all. Actually many journalists got upset at Perkins.

It shifted the narrative and narrative plays big part in voting, lets not pretend otherwise, not to mention impact on Jokic, probably turned his stomach how toxic everything went, suddenly his integrity of how he sees/thinks basketball should be played being attacked by being accused of statpadding and on top whole racism thing of him being white is the reason why he is being voted, why he might win 3 times in a row, of made up shit how he is not hold at same standards as those before him etc.

 

[elmo]

MVP went to Embid for a right reason. Jokic and Denver coasted into the playoffs while Philly roared into it. I get it that now it makes more sense that Jokic is MVP but at that point in time it did not. Trust me guys, I'm probably bigger fan of Jokic than most of you here. Been following him since rookie season, went to NBA games to see him live, etc... Embid simply had a strong finish and Jokic did not. I do agree that winning consecutive MVP award requires some added spice. It is unwritten rule that was applied to many stars before Jokic. Black and white, big and small, loud and quiet, you get my point.

The award at the end does not matter that much and I think not winning MVP is helping Jokic mentally a lot. No extra pressure, no bullshit interviews. He is western final MVP and hopefully will be NBA finals MVP and hopefully he will be NBA champion. That is what matters far more than being MVP of a season where most games feel like exhibition.

So Embiid deserves MVP because Nuggets sewn up the first seed earlier due to Jokic’s dominance. What kind of dumb ass logic is this.

 

[Andrade]

Because he's white and European, so he doesn't get the attention he deserves in the media, further boosting the voter fatigue.
Kendrick Perkins calling out that voting for him is racist (!), and basically saying that Dirk and Nash only won because of racism against black players(!).

It's a bit tongue in cheek from my side - but I do believe (white) European players don't get the praise/hype/attention they deserve.

Well I imagine the people voting are mostly white so it's obviously not because he's white. The European thing might have more credence because Americans will tend to favour Americans. But Embiid and Giannis are not American either so I don't really buy that.

Overall the best American players have been better than the best Europeans, that is not even debatable. Maybe one day we will have a European player that will be in the top 10 ever. Maybe Jokic will be that guy if he keeps winning, who knows? He would have to achieve a lot more though.

 

[elmo]

I think the plan for the Suns is to re-sign him to a different deal if he clears waiver.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I disagree as I point to you Luka Doncic, who constantly gets sucked off by national media, and his team didn't even make the playoffs this year.

I counter with luka being drafted third, he wouldn’t if he came out of duke.

Well I imagine the people voting are mostly white so it's obviously not because he's white. The European thing might have more credence because Americans will tend to favour Americans. But Embiid and Giannis are not American either so I don't really buy that.

Overall the best American players have been better than the best Europeans, that is not even debatable. Maybe one day we will have a European player that will be in the top 10 ever. Maybe Jokic will be that guy if he keeps winning, who knows? He would have to achieve a lot more though.

Racism as a phenomenon has consequences far and wide. Kendrick Perkins, who comes of as a bit of a racist, said white guys vote for for white players because of racism.
Now, being a white journalist, do you confirm his bias, or do you vote for Embiid (who obv had a very legit case)?

 

[Andrade]

I counter with luka being drafted third, he wouldn’t if he came out of duke.



Racism as a phenomenon has consequences far and wide. Kendrick Perkins, who comes of as a bit of a racist, said white guys vote for for white players because of racism.
Now, being a white journalist, do you confirm his bias, or do you vote for Embiid (who obv had a very legit case)?

Ah, the old 'reverse racism' nonsense. I see where you are coming from now so needless to say I just disagree and there's no point going further, except to say that Kendrick Perkins, growing up as a black mam in America, probably has an idea what real racism looks like.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Ah, the old 'reverse racism' nonsense. I see where you are coming from now so needless to say I just disagree and there's no point going further, except to say that Kendrick Perkins, growing up as a black mam in America, probably has an idea what real racism looks like.

Of course Perkins knows what racism looks like, which makes his nonesense even worse. Which is my point. He used racism as a tool to create a false narrative to make a point for his own gain. And I believe many of his peers might have similar views.

GMs and back office prople, white and black, have a bias towards american players - that’s obvious. I believe some (Even people with voting rights for MVP) have similar views, and I believe even race is also involved for some of them. But the evidence is strongly against the suggestion that there is white bias towards whites in the MVP race.

 

[JPRouve]

So Embiid deserves MVP because Nuggets sewn up the first seed earlier due to Jokic’s dominance. What kind of dumb ass logic is this.

To be fair, there is some logic to it. He was too good to win it, it would have been unfair to hold other players to a similar standard.

 

[Andrade]

Of course Perkins knows what racism looks like, which makes his nonesense even worse. Which is my point. He used racism as a tool to create a false narrative to make a point for his own gain. And I believe many of his peers might have similar views.

GMs and back office prople, white and black, have a bias towards american players - that’s obvious. I believe some (Even people with voting rights for MVP) have similar views, and I believe even race is also involved for some of them. But the evidence is strongly against the suggestion that there is white bias towards whites in the MVP race.

The league is completely dominated by black players so most of the MVPs will be black.

What Perkins apparently said is that since 1990 there had only been 3 guys who had won the MVP without being top 10 in scoring and all 3 were white (Jokic was 10th in his first MVP year). He also claimed that the voters are 80 percent white (no idea if this is true but it's the sports media in the US so it's going to be majority white).

Now if those voters are against white players as you say, then what's your explanation as to why a black player outside the top 10 in scoring has never won the MVP?

 

[MrMarcello]

Not weird because it was more about stopping him from winning it 3 times in a row than anything else. I felt that Embiid missed way too many games to win it tbh

Missing games is a fair reason in my view as well, and was supposedly one of the reasons why Shaq didn't get the most votes in 2004-05. The myth carried on a while that Shaq "missed a lot of games that year" when he played in 73 games. The following year he did miss 23 games.

 

[ExoduS]

So Embiid deserves MVP because Nuggets sewn up the first seed earlier due to Jokic’s dominance. What kind of dumb ass logic is this.

What happens recently always matters more than what happened 4-5 months ago. Embid had some crazy performances. The one thing that Embid did was to skip Denver game in Denver. Could have been held against him but he had that 50+ performance against Boston afterwards. Don't blame me, blame the game. I didn't make these "unwritten" rules. NBA pundits keep repeating them.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Now if those voters are against white players as you say, then what's your explanation as to why a black player outside the top 10 in scoring has never won the MVP?

Magic doesn't appear to have been top 10 in either 88/89 or 89/90, so at least we know why Perkins decided on his cut off date.

 

[T00lsh3d]

As much as I’ve loved getting into basketball, the constant MVP debating is a real ball ache

 

[Andrade]

Magic doesn't appear to have been top 10 in either 88/89 or 89/90, so at least we know why Perkins decided on his cut off date.

Ok, so if you're black, you either have to be top 10 in scoring or the greatest point guard ever and a multiple NBA champion to win the MVP. Is that what you're saying?

 

[Andrade]

Not weird because it was more about stopping him from winning it 3 times in a row than anything else. I felt that Embiid missed way too many games to win it tbh

I think that's far more reasonable than any race talk or anti-European bias (I accept that anti-Eurooean bias exists but not that players get discriminated against by mostly white voters because they are white).

More pertinently, there are 3 players who have won 3 MVPs in a row, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain and Larry Bird. If voters thought that a title-less Jokic shouldn't be permitted to join that group then I don't think that's particularly unreasonable, even though it's not how the award is supposed to work. That's the elite of the elite we are talking about there.

 

[Jim Beam]

Ok, so if you're black, you either have to be top 10 in scoring or the greatest point guard ever and a multiple NBA champion to win the MVP. Is that what you're saying?

No, people are saying that Kendrick "the idiot" Perkins deliberately cut off year 1990 to make his stupid argument more convenient to the audience. After he was called out on it, he started mumbling and embarrassed himself during the debate to the extent he should never say another word as a supposed sport analyst on any respectable television if there was any sense in the whole thing.

But, feck it, it is the baits and clicks that we are after!!

He could have pulled out an argument about voters fatigue and only very elite getting 3 MVP's in the row (still bs imo, but definitely more sensible). Nope, he decided to play the most dumbest card of them all. Now, am not claiming that Perkins did influence the whole voting thing with his stupidity. Am just claiming that out of all dumb reasons to discredit Jokic this one easily takes the cake.

Btw, some others that won MVP and weren't top 10 in scoring... Bill Russell, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld...

 

[kouroux]

I think that's far more reasonable than any race talk or anti-European bias (I accept that anti-Eurooean bias exists but not that players get discriminated against by mostly white voters because they are white).

More pertinently, there are 3 players who have won 3 MVPs in a row, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain and Larry Bird. If voters thought that a title-less Jokic shouldn't be permitted to join that group then I don't think that's particularly unreasonable, even though it's not how the award is supposed to work. That's the elite of the elite we are talking about there.

The race talk was there as sparked by Perkins and his nonsense. How it influenced the other voters remains to be seen but there was a talk for sure

 

[hasanejaz88]

MVP went to Embid for a right reason. Jokic and Denver coasted into the playoffs while Philly roared into it. I get it that now it makes more sense that Jokic is MVP but at that point in time it did not. Trust me guys, I'm probably bigger fan of Jokic than most of you here. Been following him since rookie season, went to NBA games to see him live, etc... Embid simply had a strong finish and Jokic did not. I do agree that winning consecutive MVP award requires some added spice. It is unwritten rule that was applied to many stars before Jokic. Black and white, big and small, loud and quiet, you get my point.

The award at the end does not matter that much and I think not winning MVP is helping Jokic mentally a lot. No extra pressure, no bullshit interviews. He is western final MVP and hopefully will be NBA finals MVP and hopefully he will be NBA champion. That is what matters far more than being MVP of a season where most games feel like exhibition.

Yea I agree, if Denver finished the season as they played the earlier part Jokic would've won the MVP. It might've been closer than in previous years but I think he would've won in the end.

It's funny that Embiid tried to hit at Jokic when asked about pressure to win titles, when he said that there are people who have won two MVPs but not won the title. If Jokic wins the title this season I can see people going back to Embiid on that quote.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Ok, so if you're black, you either have to be top 10 in scoring or the greatest point guard ever and a multiple NBA champion to win the MVP. Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying that Perkins chose his cutoff point so that no black player would be included, but went back far enough so that it covered the maximum amount of time possible. It's basically a silly use of statistics.

Why is top 10, specifically, so important in any case? Nowitzky was top 10 in shooting in 10 consecutive seasons excluding the one year he won MVP - where he came 11th. Jokic was a miniscule fraction of a point per game off being top 10 when he won it in '21 while having superb assist and rebound stats - the best assist record for a centre since Wilt. Basically if Jokic and Nowitzky had scored 6 and 4 more points respectively over their 72 and 78 game seasons (+0.08 and +0.05 ppg) Perkins wouldn't be able to make his silly point.

As far as PPG goes Nash is really the only outlier here but his '05 season at the Suns was one of the all time great turnarounds - Suns going from 29-53 without him to 62-20 with him. The only arguably dodgy decision for any of these awards is probably '06.

 

[Andrade]

The race talk was there as sparked by Perkins and his nonsense. How it influenced the other voters remains to be seen but there was a talk for sure

I don't think anything Perkins said made voters not choose Jokic.

 

[JPRouve]

What Perkins said is a pervasive opinion in the league. In fact you just have to listen to stories about Larry Bird, in fact one of the best Hall of Fame speeches allude to that mentality.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

The league is completely dominated by black players so most of the MVPs will be black.

What Perkins apparently said is that since 1990 there had only been 3 guys who had won the MVP without being top 10 in scoring and all 3 were white (Jokic was 10th in his first MVP year). He also claimed that the voters are 80 percent white (no idea if this is true but it's the sports media in the US so it's going to be majority white).

Now if those voters are against white players as you say, then what's your explanation as to why a black player outside the top 10 in scoring has never won the MVP?

I have no explanation to anything. Stop trying to paint me as a racist dude with the “omg here’s the reverse racism nonesense”. I don’t know the proper phrasing towards “black dude have a bias towards black dudes in basketball”. English is not my first language.

The explanation to why a black player outside the top 10 has never won the MVP is probably because more often than not the other 10 dudes inside the top 10 were also black.

 

[kouroux]

I don't think anything Perkins said made voters not choose Jokic.

Unless they come out and say, no can say anything on the subject. I happen to think it's hard not to be influenced one way or the other

 

[Zen]

I think the plan for the Suns is to re-sign him to a different deal if he clears waiver.

Can you actually do this? Also... doesn't this mean they essentially pay him twice? Aren't they still on the hook for the initial contract if he goes unclaimed?

 

[Andrade]

I'm saying that Perkins chose his cutoff point so that no black player would be included, but went back far enough so that it covered the maximum amount of time possible. It's basically a silly use of statistics.

Why is top 10, specifically, so important in any case? Nowitzky was top 10 in shooting in 10 consecutive seasons excluding the one year he won MVP - where he came 11th. Jokic was a miniscule fraction of a point per game off being top 10 when he won it in '21 while having superb assist and rebound stats - the best assist record for a centre since Wilt. Basically if Jokic and Nowitzky had scored 6 and 4 more points respectively over their 72 and 78 game seasons (+0.08 and +0.05 ppg) Perkins wouldn't be able to make his silly point.

As far as PPG goes Nash is really the only outlier here but his '05 season at the Suns was one of the all time great turnarounds - Suns going from 29-53 without him to 62-20 with him. The only arguably dodgy decision for any of these awards is probably '06.

I think you'll find that you don't have to go as far as top 10, the vast majority of MVPs in that 30+ year span were at the very least top 5 in scoring and many were scoring leaders. If you want to take it back to Magic, (the one ppg outlier apart from Nash, Dirk, Joker, Bill Walton and Dave Cowens in the past 50 years, to extend it further) then it's worth pointing out that he was a multiple champion and a Finals MVP before he ever became a regular season MVP. Clearly not the case for the others. Also, Magic was top 15-18 in scoring whilst being up there in assists whereas Nash managed to become an MVP being 42nd in scoring.

 

[Andrade]

No, people are saying that Kendrick "the idiot" Perkins deliberately cut off year 1990 to make his stupid argument more convenient to the audience. After he was called out on it, he started mumbling and embarrassed himself during the debate to the extent he should never say another word as a supposed sport analyst on any respectable television if there was any sense in the whole thing.

But, feck it, it is the baits and clicks that we are after!!

He could have pulled out an argument about voters fatigue and only very elite getting 3 MVP's in the row (still bs imo, but definitely more sensible). Nope, he decided to play the most dumbest card of them all. Now, am not claiming that Perkins did influence the whole voting thing with his stupidity. Am just claiming that out of all dumb reasons to discredit Jokic this one easily takes the cake.

Btw, some others that won MVP and weren't top 10 in scoring... Bill Russell, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld...

He's not stupid. I'd wager that he is far more successful than you or I and came from a much tougher background than you or I. Now does that make what he said true? Not necessarily. But he's not an idiot. Maybe he was doing it for clicks, maybe not. But this sentiment is something that has existed amongst NBA players for a long time. Just go back to the Isiah - Bird beef.

 

[Andrade]

I have no explanation to anything. Stop trying to paint me as a racist dude with the “omg here’s the reverse racism nonesense”. I don’t know the proper phrasing towards “black dude have a bias towards black dudes in basketball”. English is not my first language.

The explanation to why a black player outside the top 10 has never won the MVP is probably because more often than not the other 10 dudes inside the top 10 were also black.

I'm not painting you as anything, I was just asking why you thought Jokic was denied a 3rd MVP in a row because he's white. I've already said I accept anti-European bias as a possibility because European players have been stereotyped as 'soft' by the Americans over the years. These attitudes are surely changing as the NBA becomes more and more international.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I'm not painting you as anything, I was just asking why you thought Jokic was denied a 3rd MVP in a row because he's white. I've already said I accept anti-European bias as a possibility because European players have been stereotyped as 'soft' by the Americans over the years. These attitudes are surely changing as the NBA becomes more and more international.

You are kind of trying to portray my views as “ the old reverse racism nonesense”. I still believe perk (and others) think jokic is less deserving because if his skin color and/or background. I don’t know the word to use if racism isn’t correct. Call it bigotry or whatever, my point remains the same.

Ah, the old 'reverse racism' nonsense.

 

[R'hllor]

There is no point in acting dumb, those who watched shows/games before, during and after Perkins clown fiesta statements, they know. Whole thing was a toxic mess and its thankfully over.

Hope in 20 years they break that traditional wheel thats being gated right now, whole Jordan/Lebron didnt even get it and they should = X player shouldnt be allowed to win it either is getting really dumb. Sticking to traditions that are clearly filled with wrong decisions is just mental.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Ah man redcafe even ruins the NBA thread.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I think you'll find that you don't have to go as far as top 10, the vast majority of MVPs in that 30+ year span were at the very least top 5 in scoring and many were scoring leaders. If you want to take it back to Magic, (the one ppg outlier apart from Nash, Dirk, Joker, Bill Walton and Dave Cowens in the past 50 years, to extend it further) then it's worth pointing out that he was a multiple champion and a Finals MVP before he ever became a regular season MVP. Clearly not the case for the others. Also, Magic was top 15-18 in scoring whilst being up there in assists whereas Nash managed to become an MVP being 42nd in scoring.

Yeah, scoring is obviously an enormous part of the game so it's unsurprising that superior scorers often affect the game more and more often than others and therefore have the lions share of MVP's. That said in no way is scoring the metric the one that most closely mirrors the MVP race. Literally any of the global advanced stats (Box +/-, VoRp, Win Shares, PER) mirror it far more closely with like 80%+ of MVP winners coming in the top 3. For scoring it's like 55% or so. When you include those advanced metrics both Jokic and Nowitzki basically crush it. The real outlier in all of this is Nash:

Spoiler: a bunch of stats

Jokic (2021)
Box +/- (1st), VoRp (1st), PER (1st), Win Shares (1st), PPG (12th)

Nowitzki (2007)
Box +/- (1st), VoRp (2nd), PER (2nd), Win Shares (1st), PPG (11th)

Here's Magic's 2 MVP's for comparison
(1989)
Box +/- (2nd), VoRp (3rd), PER (3rd), Win Shares (3rd), PPG (14th)
(1990)
Box +/- (2nd), VoRp (2nd), PER (4th), Win Shares (3rd), PPG (18th)

Then look at Nash

(2005)
Box +/- (11th), VoRp (19th), PER (17th), Win Shares (15th), PPG (42nd)
(2006)
Box +/- (17th), VoRp (19th), PER (14th), Win Shares (10th), PPG (29th)

Nearest outlier to him is either 2001 Iverson
Box +/- (6th), VoRp (5th), PER (7th), Win Shares (10th), PPG (1st)

or 2008 Kobe
Box +/- (7th), VoRp (3rd), PER (8th), Win Shares (4th), PPG (2nd)

The Nash stats are just way out there. Nowitzki and Jokic are really quite uncontroversial picks. In no way do either of them deserve to be lumped in with Nash just because of Perkins' over reliance on the scoring metric and a desire to drum up controversy.

 

[Andrade]

You are kind of trying to portray my views as “ the old reverse racism nonesense”. I still believe perk (and others) think jokic is less deserving because if his skin color and/or background. I don’t know the word to use if racism isn’t correct. Call it bigotry or whatever, my point remains the same.

Then you tried to say that the white voters don't want to offend the angry black man Perk so they don't vote for him to win a third straight MVP. I'm sorry but it's a dumb viewpoint in a world where Michael Jordan and Lebron James didn't win 3 straight MVPs (and could both easily have won 5 straight MVPs). Unless you think Jokic is better than LeBron and MJ.

 

[Sarni]

Can you actually do this? Also... doesn't this mean they essentially pay him twice? Aren't they still on the hook for the initial contract if he goes unclaimed?

You can. You cannot do that if you had been traded, and then waived by the following team but if you were the ones doing the waiving it's fine.

 

[Andrade]

Yeah, scoring is obviously an enormous part of the game so it's unsurprising that superior scorers often affect the game more and more often than others and therefore have the lions share of MVP's. That said in no way is scoring the metric the one that most closely mirrors the MVP race. Literally any of the global advanced stats (Box +/-, VoRp, Win Shares, PER) mirror it far more closely with like 80%+ of MVP winners coming in the top 3. For scoring it's like 55% or so. When you include those advanced metrics both Jokic and Nowitzki basically crush it. The real outlier in all of this is Nash:

Spoiler: a bunch of stats

Jokic (2021)
Box +/- (1st), VoRp (1st), PER (1st), Win Shares (1st), PPG (12th)

Nowitzki (2007)
Box +/- (1st), VoRp (2nd), PER (2nd), Win Shares (1st), PPG (11th)

Here's Magic's 2 MVP's for comparison
(1989)
Box +/- (2nd), VoRp (3rd), PER (3rd), Win Shares (3rd), PPG (14th)
(1990)
Box +/- (2nd), VoRp (2nd), PER (4th), Win Shares (3rd), PPG (18th)

Then look at Nash

(2005)
Box +/- (11th), VoRp (19th), PER (17th), Win Shares (15th), PPG (42nd)
(2006)
Box +/- (17th), VoRp (19th), PER (14th), Win Shares (10th), PPG (29th)

Nearest outlier to him is either 2001 Iverson
Box +/- (6th), VoRp (5th), PER (7th), Win Shares (10th), PPG (1st)

or 2008 Kobe
Box +/- (7th), VoRp (3rd), PER (8th), Win Shares (4th), PPG (2nd)

The Nash stats are just way out there. Nowitzki and Jokic are really quite uncontroversial picks. In no way do either of them deserve to be lumped in with Nash just because of Perkins' over reliance on the scoring metric and a desire to drum up controversy.

If you're going to do this fairly and criticise Perkins for focusing on scoring (a singular but very important metric as you've stated), then you would need to go through every MVP in the last 50 years and look at their global stats (obviously I'm not asking you to do that cos it would take a long time).

If the MVP is typically high in all those categories then Dirk and Joker (and Cowens and Walton if you want to take it back to the 70s) would still be outliers for not being top 10 in scoring. If we just take it from 1990 and remove the Dirk, Joker and Nash years, the MVP was at least top five in scoring (forget top 10) 25 out of the other 28 seasons. That is almost 90%. Looks like scoring is a pretty big indicator in the MVP, contrary to what you're saying.

I accept that Nash is much worse than the other 2, but Nash is American and it kind of further reinforces the point. Why does he have 2 MVPs and Kobe has one and Wade has zero?

 

[Andrade]

There is no point in acting dumb, those who watched shows/games before, during and after Perkins clown fiesta statements, they know. Whole thing was a toxic mess and its thankfully over.

Hope in 20 years they break that traditional wheel thats being gated right now, whole Jordan/Lebron didnt even get it and they should = X player shouldnt be allowed to win it either is getting really dumb. Sticking to traditions that are clearly filled with wrong decisions is just mental.

Didn't watch the shows or see any of the furore after it, just read about it in this thread and I am addressing the specifics of what he said rather than just calling him an idiot. Which I don't think he is.

 

[Rado_N]

Ah man redcafe even ruins the NBA thread.

Right?

Anyway, how ‘bout them Nuggets! Christian Braun had himself a day it seemed from the highlights I watched.