NBA 2020-2021

Sarni said:
Speaking of Ayton, there was a block on No Dunks podcast recently discussing whether Suns will be vindicated for taking him over Luka (and Trae) if they go on to win championship this year and their view was basically a no. I tend to lean towards that answer as well as clearly the other two are on a higher level individually but as a fit Ayton is perfect for this team right now, and you wouldn't have Chris Paul there if you had got Luka or Trae in first.
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The end game is always a championship so as long as we get it, it means we were right to draft him. Even if we don't end up winning it, I still think it's the right decision to draft him over Luka and Trae because this team is Booker's and he wanted Ayton over them.

Draft either of them and Booker would either want a trade or assert his dominance and not let them shine as much as they did with the Hawks/Mavs. Booker is willing to share the limelight with CP3 because he grew up watching him and respects his game, no chance he shows the same respect to Luka/Trae. You pick a guy and go all in with him, not draft another guy who might usurp him.

And I'm an Ayton fanboy so take the following with a pinch of salt. I honestly think that people neglect the fact that Ayton is potentially as much of a game changer as the likes of Luke/Trae. His ability to guard much smaller players means we have a size advantage whenever people want to play small ball and that's basically the entire league except Utah and the Lakers. We basically have the luxury of playing our best lineup no matter if the opponents are trying to play big or play small. He's practically a coach's dream player because he can fit into basically any lineup and mesh well with any star with his low usage and low maintenance.

To be honest, I was thinking Ayton would need 5 seasons or more to show his true potential, but CP3's arrival seems to have fast-forward his growth and if he can keep up his growth, he'll be making All - NBA teams sooner or later.
 
elmo said:
The end game is always a championship so as long as we get it, it means we were right to draft him. Even if we don't end up winning it, I still think it's the right decision to draft him over Luka and Trae because this team is Booker's and he wanted Ayton over them.

Draft either of them and Booker would either want a trade or assert his dominance and not let them shine as much as they did with the Hawks/Mavs. Booker is willing to share the limelight with CP3 because he grew up watching him and respects his game, no chance he shows the same respect to Luka/Trae. You pick a guy and go all in with him, not draft another guy who might usurp him.

And I'm an Ayton fanboy so take the following with a pinch of salt. I honestly think that people neglect the fact that Ayton is potentially as much of a game changer as the likes of Luke/Trae. His ability to guard much smaller players means we have a size advantage whenever people want to play small ball and that's basically the entire league except Utah and the Lakers. We basically have the luxury of playing our best lineup no matter if the opponents are trying to play big or play small. He's practically a coach's dream player because he can fit into basically any lineup and mesh well with any star with his low usage and low maintenance.

To be honest, I was thinking Ayton would need 5 seasons or more to show his true potential, but CP3's arrival seems to have fast-forward his growth and if he can keep up his growth, he'll be making All - NBA teams sooner or later.
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That's a fair take I think. What surprised me about Ayton the most is that coming out of college he was widely assessed as an offense first player who couldn't defend at a high level yet and may not address that part of his game for a while. Very reminiscent of how Jahlil Okafor was perceived and we know how it turned out when he started playing for good teams.

However once he entered the league he was a decent defender almost immediately and went on to become a very good defender soon after, while his offensive game was not really at a super high level and even now he's still just a competent offensive player but not a truly great one. There is a lot of untapped potential with him still.
 
Good to see the Suns shooting well from 3, am surprised to see them up by double digits (only saw 1st quarter). What happened in the second?
 
Middleton hasn't gotten any rhythm and shot poorly. Holiday has been bad, especially if you're jacking up that many shots.

Suns have been hustling and outrebounding inside 4 minutes and getting important 2md chance points and have increased the lead back up to 11.
 
Poor Giannis. Carrying underperforming co-stars on a bad knee. Good win for the Suns. I think they'll split the road games.
 
Giannis had himself a game, but his team shot so bad from 3 and couldn't contain the Suns at the end. Bucks looked tired and gassed.

Cannot understand how Holiday shoots the same attempts as Giannis and has more attempts than Middleton. He's not the 2nd option, it's pretty evident but guess not.
 
Bucks also cannot match up with the Suns. Portis for whatever reason played minimal minutes. If Bucks go small, Conaughton got the minutes from Lopez since he's a good shooter. But you give up a lot of size.
 
elmo said:
2 is the magic number now!
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Just need a split in Milwaukee. The team mindset is very strong and happy to see CP3 leading this group. Crowder has been a great leader as well. Monty Williams and CP3 are the heart and soul of this team. Easy to follow and play for them.
 
edcunited1878 said:
Giannis had himself a game, but his team shot so bad from 3 and couldn't contain the Suns at the end. Bucks looked tired and gassed.

Cannot understand how Holiday shoots the same attempts as Giannis and has more attempts than Middleton. He's not the 2nd option, it's pretty evident but guess not.
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He only shot as many as Giannis because they fouled Giannis on a lot of easy buckets he was supposed to get. As for Middleton, he was just useless no issue there. The only problem with Holiday is that he pretty much missed a bunch of shots he normally would make. He was making a mess of lay ups and put backs. Just a mess. The only other reliable shooters are liabilities on the defensive end. Tucker's left his corner shot in Houston. At this point, I'm amazed they don't post up Brook Lopez more.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Yeah he's been incredible but you can't solo win a basketball game when the other team is as good as the Suns.
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Definitely, there was a clear and long period where he played absolutely on his own with others going into hiding. Not sure whether it is a coaching issue or mentality one in the team.

The Suns do have problems guarding a paint, but Holiday and especially Middleton need to give more. Do feel this will go to game 6 at least.
 
RooneyLegend said:
He only shot as many as Giannis because they fouled Giannis on a lot of easy buckets he was supposed to get. As for Middleton, he was just useless no issue there. The only problem with Holiday is that he pretty much missed a bunch of shots he normally would make. He was making a mess of lay ups and put backs. Just a mess. The only other reliable shooters are liabilities on the defensive end. Tucker's left his corner shot in Houston. At this point, I'm amazed they don't post up Brook Lopez more.
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Yeah, Tucker isn't even defending that well this series. Both teams are using a shorter bench, however Suns have a much better rotation. Another injury to the Suns in Craig, who got completely run over by Giannis and limped off the court (Craig).

Either way, Middleton has to be the 2nd option after Giannis. Allow him to find a rhythm. And Holiday and Lopez need to pick their spots better.
 
edcunited1878 said:
Yeah, Tucker isn't even defending that well this series. Both teams are using a shorter bench, however Suns have a much better rotation. Another injury to the Suns in Craig, who got completely run over by Giannis and limped off the court (Craig).

Either way, Middleton has to be the 2nd option after Giannis. Allow him to find a rhythm. And Holiday and Lopez need to pick their spots better.
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Hard to get into rhythm when the majority of the possession is with Giannis and him at the free throw line.

Bucks gotta stop Giannis iso and try to get the rest of his teammates involved in the game. He's a bad free throw shooter and it suits the Suns for him to keep going to the line because it ices out the rest of the team and allows the Suns to take a break when playing defense.
 
Giannis played as well as someone can and the Bucks still weren't that competitive tonight. It doesn't bode well for them, moving forward, unless Jrue and Middleton start shooting better.

Phoenix are 2 games away and if they were to steal one of the next two, I can't see Milwaukee coming back.
 
I can't believe how good Giannis looks here.

I'm taking the view that the Bucks are in a decent position, given that; 1) Giannis is playing as well as he ever has, 2) Middleton and Holiday have shot appallingly, and both games have still been fairly close. Obviously Suns are the massive favourites now, but I don't think it's over at all, and if we can get 4 games in the series where one of Middleton or Holiday play to their potential at the same time as Giannis, then the Bucks can do this.
 
Also worth pointing out that the Bucks are +4 for the series when Giannis has been on the floor. If he can play 40+ minutes for the rest of the series and keep this up...
 
The irony in all this is that the Bucks didn't want CP3 and instead gave up a ton of assets for Holiday, who has been awful in so many games this post-season.
 
ZDwyr said:
The irony in all this is that the Bucks didn't want CP3 and instead gave up a ton of assets for Holiday, who has been awful in so many games this post-season.
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People who make decisions like that should be fired.
 
ZDwyr said:
The irony in all this is that the Bucks didn't want CP3 and instead gave up a ton of assets for Holiday, who has been awful in so many games this post-season.
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RooneyLegend said:
People who make decisions like that should be fired.
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I disagree.

When we say they gave up a ton of assets for Jrue, what they have was Bledsoe, Hill (two salary fillers with no value) and three future firsts. Suns got Paul for Rubio, Oubre (who was worth a first) and a first round pick, so basically a worthless piece + two firsts vs worthless piece(s) + three firsts. There is variance in cost but it is justified.

Secondly, Jrue was 30 and CP3 was 35. Bucks were going to make a move to try & convince Giannis to stay, getting a younger player who could be part of the core with him for the next 4-5 years may have appealed to him more.

Jrue also made significantly less money than Paul, they would have had to give up another player from their rotation to match CP3's salary.

Also, Jrue was tremendous the last time he was in the playoffs. He never really sucked in the big games so it may be an issue with how he's being used rather than his ability. He can still get better next years.

It's obviously easy to say now they should have got Paul in a hindsight but at that time nobody questioned their decision to go with Jrue trade.
 
elmo said:
Hard to get into rhythm when the majority of the possession is with Giannis and him at the free throw line.

Bucks gotta stop Giannis iso and try to get the rest of his teammates involved in the game. He's a bad free throw shooter and it suits the Suns for him to keep going to the line because it ices out the rest of the team and allows the Suns to take a break when playing defense.
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Agree. Giannis can takeover the game, but not takeover every possession because as you said, he's a bad free throw shooter and if the lane isn't there for him to eurostep or just go over, he'll do his fadeaway midrange jumper. It was all going down for him last night, but we all know he's not that type of scorer on a consistent basis. And when the Suns are shooting that many 3s and knocking them down, they get a lot of good looks because CP3 gets to his spots for himself and his teammates (who also pass well to the open teammate)....you'll allow Giannis to score 2 point buckets all night long and try his luck at the line.

When Giannis had the ball in game 2, it was Tucker in the corner as you previously mentioned, Conaughton on the wing...while Middleton and Holiday were kind of just there.

Bucks defense also hasn't been that good. Interior defense has their moments, but Ayton is having his way on the boards and CP3/Booker have very good midrange games, best the Bucks have seen all playoffs. Then you have Bridges, Crowder, doing their thing on both ends of the floor...Bucks haven't had an answer, yet.
 
Sarni said:
I disagree.

When we say they gave up a ton of assets for Jrue, what they have was Bledsoe, Hill (two salary fillers with no value) and three future firsts. Suns got Paul for Rubio, Oubre (who was worth a first) and a first round pick, so basically a worthless piece + two firsts vs worthless piece(s) + three firsts. There is variance in cost but it is justified.

Secondly, Jrue was 30 and CP3 was 35. Bucks were going to make a move to try & convince Giannis to stay, getting a younger player who could be part of the core with him for the next 4-5 years may have appealed to him more.

Jrue also made significantly less money than Paul, they would have had to give up another player from their rotation to match CP3's salary.

Also, Jrue was tremendous the last time he was in the playoffs. He never really sucked in the big games so it may be an issue with how he's being used rather than his ability. He can still get better next years.

It's obviously easy to say now they should have got Paul in a hindsight but at that time nobody questioned their decision to go with Jrue trade.
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Agree w/you on this one. Holiday, Tucker, and Portis were necessary for the Bucks to overcome the physicality of the Sixers. And the team needed toughness and an edge to it. Holiday has contributed to their defensive effort all year long.

Everything goes through CP3 because he's a natural point guard who can do it all. For the Bucks, it all goes through Giannis then Middleton and then their defense sets the tone.
 
Jrue for all that he shot poorly was good i think. His defence especially on Paul was great, CP3 had like 5 or 6 turnovers, which is crazy for him

Giannis was heroic. Problem for the bucks was Middleton, who just sucked

Suns just have such a massive matchup advantage though, and bucks rotation is just too short. Brook Lopez can't stay on the floor in this series. Portis can't stay on the floor. Forbes can't stay on the floor. Their rotation of guys Bud can actually play for serious minutes so far has basically been 5. And Connaughton can only play so long as his 3s keep falling, too...

Either Middleton starts playing like a star on offence, or this will be a short series
 
Sarni said:
I disagree.

When we say they gave up a ton of assets for Jrue, what they have was Bledsoe, Hill (two salary fillers with no value) and three future firsts. Suns got Paul for Rubio, Oubre (who was worth a first) and a first round pick, so basically a worthless piece + two firsts vs worthless piece(s) + three firsts. There is variance in cost but it is justified.

Secondly, Jrue was 30 and CP3 was 35. Bucks were going to make a move to try & convince Giannis to stay, getting a younger player who could be part of the core with him for the next 4-5 years may have appealed to him more.

Jrue also made significantly less money than Paul, they would have had to give up another player from their rotation to match CP3's salary.

Also, Jrue was tremendous the last time he was in the playoffs. He never really sucked in the big games so it may be an issue with how he's being used rather than his ability. He can still get better next years.

It's obviously easy to say now they should have got Paul in a hindsight but at that time nobody questioned their decision to go with Jrue trade.
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I understand that making the deal would be more difficult due to salary purposes. That's a fair point. Something else to consider is that Paul wanted to be closer to his family and therefore Milwaukee was probably not even a realistic option. But in terms of fit Paul is far superior. Holiday was good in the playoffs against a bad defensive team in Portland. The Bucks with a more pure playmaker would help them win and that's what Paul is. If Giannis is happy having Jrue as part of the core for the next 4-5 years then good luck to him. A more appealing option would have been to get Paul, win a title and then re-tool when Paul moves on, IMO.
 
ThierryHenry said:
I can't believe how good Giannis looks here.

I'm taking the view that the Bucks are in a decent position, given that; 1) Giannis is playing as well as he ever has, 2) Middleton and Holiday have shot appallingly, and both games have still been fairly close. Obviously Suns are the massive favourites now, but I don't think it's over at all, and if we can get 4 games in the series where one of Middleton or Holiday play to their potential at the same time as Giannis, then the Bucks can do this.
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Am with you. I did choose the Suns before the series started, but there are things that are a bit encouraging for the Bucks despite 0-2 atm. Giannis is definitely not a problem, in fact, the Suns have to find a way to slow him down. As it is, the Bucks are +4 with Giannis on the court and -27 with him on the bench in these 2 games. That is absolutely crazy and even last night he went out for 2 minutes and the Suns immediately go on 7-0 run in an important period. Those shots he made are mostly him driving to the basket and he is going through the Suns defense like they aren't even there. Only Crowder had some success in not allowing him to go to the paint so easily and shoot from the distance on some occasions which is the way to stop him. In general, the Bucks looked much more dominant in the paint last night.
Also, the Bucks were better in defence comparing to the 1st game. Didn't switch so much and allow Paul and Booker to absolutely torch them from the perimeter or pass it to Ayton in the paint after the switch. Yes, both were still excellent, but it wasn't a walk in the park as in the 1st game and many of those shots were heavily contested. Holiday especially did a much better defensive job on Paul.

So, yeah, if the Bucks can somehow lift the attacking potential of other players (to their normal/expected level) I wouldn't be surprised if the series comes back in Phoenix on level terms. Middleton especially needs to take some responsibility.
 
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ZDwyr said:
I understand that making the deal would be more difficult due to salary purposes. That's a fair point. Something else to consider is that Paul wanted to be closer to his family and therefore Milwaukee was probably not even a realistic option. But in terms of fit Paul is far superior. Holiday was good in the playoffs against a bad defensive team in Portland. The Bucks with a more pure playmaker would help them win and that's what Paul is. If Giannis is happy having Jrue as part of the core for the next 4-5 years then good luck to him. A more appealing option would have been to get Paul, win a title and then re-tool when Paul moves on, IMO.
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Let’s not forget we are literally less than 2 years from Paul being traded as a salary dump to Westbrook along with two picks and two pick swaps, one of which almost ended up being a top 5 pick this year. Every team was concerned about his $46million player option next year, I think most teams in the league would have picked Holiday over him if given a choice - despite him clearly being a much inferior player at that point in time.
 
ThierryHenry said:
I can't believe how good Giannis looks here.

I'm taking the view that the Bucks are in a decent position, given that; 1) Giannis is playing as well as he ever has, 2) Middleton and Holiday have shot appallingly, and both games have still been fairly close. Obviously Suns are the massive favourites now, but I don't think it's over at all, and if we can get 4 games in the series where one of Middleton or Holiday play to their potential at the same time as Giannis, then the Bucks can do this.
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I mean games 1 and 2 of the WCF were much closer and the Clips should have won game 2. I expect the Bucks will win game 3 and maybe even 4 but there's no doubt who has the pressure to perform now.
 
Sarni said:
Let’s not forget we are literally less than 2 years from Paul being traded as a salary dump to Westbrook along with two picks and two pick swaps, one of which almost ended up being a top 5 pick this year. Every team was concerned about his $46million player option next year, I think most teams in the league would have picked Holiday over him if given a choice - despite him clearly being a much inferior player at that point in time.
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Was CP3's value really that low at the time? I don't quite recall. I thought it was pretty widely believed to be a fleecing by Presti and a massive overpay from Houston's side. I agree that it didn't seem like he had this kind of form left.
 
ZDwyr said:
Was CP3's value really that low at the time? I don't quite recall. I thought it was pretty widely believed to be a fleecing by Presti and a massive overpay from Houston's side. I agree that it didn't seem like he had this kind of form left.
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Rockets needed to trade Paul because he and Harden couldn't coexist anymore, but they could only land Westbrook because Paul's contract looked like a massive overpay and just not worth it, so trading one seemingly bad contract for another was the only option

Suns shot 20/40 from 3 in game 2 and just made a lot of tough shots ultimately. That bodes well for the bucks because it's unlikely to happen again, and they still only lost by 10 despite Middleton being a non-factor on offence. That's at least encouraging for the series, but ultimately the suns just look like the better team. Their margin for error is much bigger than the bucks
 
Sarni said:
Let’s not forget we are literally less than 2 years from Paul being traded as a salary dump to Westbrook along with two picks and two pick swaps, one of which almost ended up being a top 5 pick this year. Every team was concerned about his $46million player option next year, I think most teams in the league would have picked Holiday over him if given a choice - despite him clearly being a much inferior player at that point in time.
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I'm pretty sure that he was traded due to issues that he had with Harden and the Rockets organization as a whole. Westbrook was the only superstar with a comparable cap hit and was/is a friend of Harden. One of the issues with Paul, is that if you already have several max contracts in your books, it's difficult to add him without gutting your team and several owners don't want to pay too much luxury tax.
 
Suns haven't even been playing that well in this series, they've just been playing smart so far and it's working. CP3 and Booker can still step it up a notch if there's a need to.
 
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