NBA 2019-2020

Sarni said:
Nah Giannis is better offensively. He's basically impossible to guard in the paint. He's improved his shot this year but it's still not good. Doncic is a better shooter.

It's not a fair comparison though as it's Luka's 2nd year.
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Player A: 30.3 Pts 14 Rb 6.2 Ast 4.8 TOV 18.9 FGA 63.4 TS% 32.9 PER 35.6 USG% 1.6 OWS

Player B: 29.5 Pts 10.7 Rb 9.3 Ast 4.6 TOV 20 FGA 61.2 TS% 30.8 PER 34.7 USG% 2 OWS

We're basically talking about the same level of offensive production and dominance here
 
Luka is already a more effective team player right now than Giannis, IMO. Individually Giannis is better, and will remain better barring any serious injuries.
 
UweBein said:
Luka is already a more effective team player right now than Giannis, IMO. Individually Giannis is better, and will remain better barring any serious injuries.
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I'll admit right away that I'm a Luka-stan, but this Point doesn't get brought up often enough: Giannis is first and foremost an athletic marvel - and thus dependent on not getting injured (Amare Stoudemire Comes to mind, although he clearly was never on the same level as Giannis). Even if he stays injury-free, I expect father time to catch up with him faster than with LeBron. Doncic's game should age really well, even if he loses half a step over the years.
It's also pretty hard to argue that he isn't a Top 5 player RIGHT NOW (not counting injured players). LeBron, Harden, Giannis and Doncic have been the best performers over the first month of the season, the young man Plays like a legit MVP contender in his sophomore year. It's nuts. To Quote the King: He's a bad motherfecker.
As for his ceiling: Who knows. He will keep adjusting to the NBA game, his shot selection will get better, the chemistry with his teammates will improve, he has yet to grow into his "man Body" and I can definitely see him become an unspectacular but decent team defender. But sod it, if he never improves one bit and just keeps producing like this he's a sure-fire Hall of Famer.
 
Well it’s a question whether you are discussing who performed better over first 10-15 games of season, which would also include Wiggins as a top 10 player, or overall ability. If it’s former then Doncic is a top 5 (would add Towns to the list). If it’s the latter then Lillard, Davis, Kawhi and George (very underrated) are all still ahead of him, with Jokic and Embiid on par.

It’s hard to argue at this point that Kawhi isn’t a better player than him, for example. Or Davis. Or LeBron. Or Harden. Or Giannis. It’s not really criticism, that boy is 20.
 
Still absolutely surreal that there was so much evidence available on Doncic and yet teams passed on him. That's a franchise changing mistake and borders on negligence really
 
Sarni said:
Well it’s a question whether you are discussing who performed better over first 10-15 games of season, which would also include Wiggins as a top 10 player, or overall ability. If it’s former then Doncic is a top 5 (would add Towns to the list). If it’s the latter then Lillard, Davis, Kawhi and George (very underrated) are all still ahead of him, with Jokic and Embiid on par.

It’s hard to argue at this point that Kawhi isn’t a better player than him, for example. Or Davis. Or LeBron. Or Harden. Or Giannis. It’s not really criticism, that boy is 20.
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You have two Wolves up there? I'm getting dizzy.:D

I'm curious to see what they could do with a legit sniper, a JJ Redick type of player.
 
Sarni said:
Nah Giannis is better offensively. He's basically impossible to guard in the paint. He's improved his shot this year but it's still not good. Doncic is a better shooter.

It's not a fair comparison though as it's Luka's 2nd year.
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Sarni said:
No he's not. But he could be in 2-3 years.

Agreed about the rest, he's definitely the best player coming out of that 2018 draft which had loads of talent. Will be a HOF and MVP contender for sure and his MVP contention is not that far away.
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Doncic is averaging 29.5 points, 10.7 rebounds and 9.3 assists per game - he's in a league of his own in NBA history for players his age when it comes to two of those three categories, while the rebounds puts him in a group that includes two future Hall of Famers and arugably the best rebounder in the NBA today.

https://twitter.com/MicahAdams13/status/1196639671775830016

https://in.nba.com/news/luka-doncic...n-san-antonio-spurs/br49a9sqwtr810ahmu0d01dc6
 
Moby said:
Doncic is averaging 29.5 points, 10.7 rebounds and 9.3 assists per game - he's in a league of his own in NBA history for players his age when it comes to two of those three categories, while the rebounds puts him in a group that includes two future Hall of Famers and arugably the best rebounder in the NBA today.

https://twitter.com/MicahAdams13/status/1196639671775830016

https://in.nba.com/news/luka-doncic...n-san-antonio-spurs/br49a9sqwtr810ahmu0d01dc6
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His age is irrelevant if you're assessing whether he's a top 5 player in the league though. He's clearly not, and is not even top 10 probably.
 
RobinLFC said:
His age is irrelevant if you're assessing whether he's a top 5 player in the league though. He's clearly not, and is not even top 10 probably.
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Based on performances on this season alone, he easily is. Otherwise we wouldn't be comparing him to MVP caliber players. The fact that he's putting up those numbers, and has shown tremendous maturity and BBIQ in his play is incredible.
 
Moby said:
Based on performances on this season alone, he easily is. Otherwise we wouldn't be comparing him to MVP caliber players. The fact that he's putting up those numbers, and has shown tremendous maturity and BBIQ in his play is incredible.
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Weird reasoning imo, he's not suddenly better than Durant or Curry just because they aren't playing at the moment. George only just came back from injury as well and looked great. That's without including the obvious ones like James, Davis, Harden, Leonard, ...

Is he a top 5 player? Definitely not.
Might he have played as a top 5 player among active players in the first 13 games of the season? Maybe, but that's a very random criteria to apply.
 
RobinLFC said:
Weird reasoning imo, he's not suddenly better than Durant or Curry just because they aren't playing at the moment. George only just came back from injury as well and looked great. That's without including the obvious ones like James, Davis, Harden, Leonard, ...
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Not sure how I can make it any clearer. I literally said based on this season's performances alone he's been among the top performers this season, not talking about overall ability.
 
Doncic was pretty spectacular in his rookie season too, it's more than just 13 games. i'd have him in the top 20 on his rookie play alone.

he's started the season as one of the best 4 performing players, no denying that. LBJ, Giannis, Harden and Doncic. there's no reason to think he will suddenly regress from here either. it's up to returning injured stars like Curry and Durant to prove they're still at their best and can still compete at that top 5 level.

for me no he's not yet top 5 but he's still clearly in the discussion which is insane for a 20 year old. and it won't be long before he's comfortably in there.
 
Kawhi has been better than him this season when playing as well. He hasn’t played that much though.

Doncic is clearly not a top 5 player now, that’s not even that debatable. Kawhi, LeBron, Davis, Giannis and Harden are all without any shadow of doubt better than he is.
 
Sarni said:
Kawhi has been better than him this season when playing as well. He hasn’t played that much though.

Doncic is clearly not a top 5 player now, that’s not even that debatable. Kawhi, LeBron, Davis, Giannis and Harden are all without any shadow of doubt better than he is.
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He will be an All Star which will be great in itself. The rest is pointless debating (his hypothetical position among the best players)
 
Has the NBA ever have this many star players? I mean, i'm young and only been following the league for 25 years or so, and i genuinely don't remember the league having this many absurd players

I mean, a guy like Kyrie would have been a top 10 player in the league without question some 15 years ago, wouldn't he? Is he even top 15 right now?

Or is that poor memory and recency bias on my part?
 
giorno said:
Has the NBA ever have this many star players? I mean, i'm young and only been following the league for 25 years or so, and i genuinely don't remember the league having this many absurd players

I mean, a guy like Kyrie would have been a top 10 player in the league without question some 15 years ago, wouldn't he? Is he even top 15 right now?

Or is that poor memory and recency bias on my part?
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The current Kyrie wouldn't have been top 10 IMHO. There were some amazing players back then, the game is much more open now, doesn't mean the players are that much better.
 
giorno said:
Has the NBA ever have this many star players? I mean, i'm young and only been following the league for 25 years or so, and i genuinely don't remember the league having this many absurd players

I mean, a guy like Kyrie would have been a top 10 player in the league without question some 15 years ago, wouldn't he? Is he even top 15 right now?

Or is that poor memory and recency bias on my part?
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Young? You are old as dirt.
 
giorno said:
Has the NBA ever have this many star players? I mean, i'm young and only been following the league for 25 years or so, and i genuinely don't remember the league having this many absurd players

I mean, a guy like Kyrie would have been a top 10 player in the league without question some 15 years ago, wouldn't he? Is he even top 15 right now?

Or is that poor memory and recency bias on my part?
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I'd say Kyrie is, or at least was in the past, a fringe top 10 player. Back then you had the likes of Kidd, Nash, Bryant, Wade, James, Garnett, Duncan, Nowitzki who I'd consider better and a few HOFers like Malone, Payton, Miller etc. in the back end of their careers. He'd also be a fringe top 10 player when on his day imo.

It's difficult to compare different eras anyway, but I'd put the likes of Irving, Westbrook and CP3 considerably lower than Kidd and Nash.
 
Right so my memory is shite :lol:

Can't believe i'd forgot Steve Nash, Jason Kidd and Kevin Garnett :lol:
 
Sarni said:
Kawhi has been better than him this season when playing as well. He hasn’t played that much though.

Doncic is clearly not a top 5 player now, that’s not even that debatable. Kawhi, LeBron, Davis, Giannis and Harden are all without any shadow of doubt better than he is.
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Comparing Harden to Luka. :annoyed: Literally the polar opposites when it comes to enjoying watching a player play. Like comparing Iniesta to Jesse Lingard. Not having that cheating shit anywhere near my top-5.
 
Moby said:
Comparing Harden to Luka. :annoyed: Literally the polar opposites when it comes to enjoying watching a player play. Like comparing Iniesta to Jesse Lingard. Not having that cheating shit anywhere near my top-5.
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He is easily top 5 whether you like his style or not. Most people don’t.
 
I'm not sure about Harden easily being top 5, his defense is often comical. He is probably top 1 offensively though.

My top 5 would include Leonard, George, Antetokounmpo, Durant and probably Embiid, you could squeeze Harden instead of Embiid.
 
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Moby said:
Forgetting Nash when we are basically discussing his heir in the last 20 odd posts. :lol:
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We've not been discussing Trae Young :confused:

We should though. He's amazing :drool:

It was bad enough the Suns and Kings passed on Doncic, but they also passed on Young :lol: (and so did the griezzlies, though they were lucky enough to get a redo with Ja)
 
James Harden is scoring 40 a night. He's doing things offensively not seen since Wilt

Not a top 5 player? Come the feck on :wenger:
 
Harden is a great scorer and easily one of the best players in the NBA but there isn't a single aspect of his game I can enjoy. Not my cup of tea. His achievements are incredible even if they do need to be put into context
 


Really good video Analyzing his game for anyone interested.
 
Moby said:
With 13 PPG from FTs. :lol: Abysmal even by his own shady standards.

179 FTs this season, next best is Lillard at 100.
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What does it matter, he’s still scoring those points and getting to the line is ability as well. He’s been amazing for the last 7-8 games and was incredible almost all of last season.
 
Yeah you can't just discount Harden's FT's because you don't like that aspect of his game.
 
Eboue said:
Chris Paup is the best player in that group
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Dunno man - I know you like him a lot, but are there any stats to back that claim up? On pure PG ability I might see your point, but other than that, I don't think I agree. Kidd won a ring, 4th all-time in triple doubles, second all-time in assists. Nash was a 2-time MVP and 3th all-time in assists. I'd definitely agree that Paul is above Westbrook and Irving though.

JPRouve said:
I'm not sure about Harden easily being top 5, his defense is often comical. He is probably top 1 offensively though.

My top 5 would include Leonard, George, Antetokounmpo, Durant and probably Embiid, you could squeeze Harden instead of Embiid.
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I'll assume you just forgot about LeBron? :D
 
RobinLFC said:
Dunno man - I know you like him a lot, but are there any stats to back that claim up? On pure PG ability I might see your point, but other than that, I don't think I agree. Kidd won a ring, 4th all-time in triple doubles, second all-time in assists. Nash was a 2-time MVP and 3th all-time in assists. I'd definitely agree that Paul is above Westbrook and Irving though.


I'll assume you just forgot about LeBron? :D
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Nash didnt deserve either MVP. Paul is the best blend of offensive talent and defensive skill. Nash and Irvin were/are turnstiles. Kidd and Westbrook cant shoot.
 
RobinLFC said:
I'll assume you just forgot about LeBron? :D
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I didn't, I don't really know how to rate him. I would put him with Harden, you could argue that he is top 5 but it would be as the fifth in my opinion, same with Curry.
 
but if you want stats...

PER

  • Paul 8th
  • Westbrook 18th
  • Irving 34th
  • Nash 79th
  • Kidd 169th
Win Shares / 48

  • Paul 4th
  • Irving 69th
  • Nash 70th
  • Westbrook 71st
  • Kidd 188st

BPM

  • Paul 5th
  • Westbrook 9th
  • Kidd 30th
  • Irving 44th
  • Nash 208th

VORP

  • Paul 11th
  • Kidd 12th
  • Westbrook 23rd
  • Nash 100th
  • Irving 149th
 
First game back in over a year from Melo and Clearly is still not NBA level fit which is normal after being out for a year but that will sort itself out, he was gassed in the second half . 10 points and 4 boards in your first game back in over a year was Decent ...missed some normally automatic buckets around the basket but it’s normal with rust. When he knocks the rust off and is more fit I can see at least 5 more points added to that stat line.

Either way was great to see him back in the NBA again!

If only Dudley was there :wenger:
 
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