NBA 2014-2015

Eboue said:
It's his hometown, a long suffering city that hasn't won in any sport for 50 years. It's not hard to see how that would add more to his legacy than another couple of titles in tacky Miami with their 14 fans who remember the Mourninh years.


"Now if he wins with Cleveland, it's only because of the other great players they have, and he will only be viewed as an "opportunistic player" "


This part is just tone deaf. This is what he is viewed as outside of Miami. I don't hold it against him, you can't win a title yourself. But let's not pretend like this is a new thing.
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Yup, and only staying with Miami now will help him repair that image. Like Zen said, Cleveland looks like the better option for Lebron than Miami (in term of help) right now, so if he decides to stick with Miami now, and help them win another 2-3 titles, now that will be big for his legacy imo.

Going back to Cleveland will be a very good and touching story, but it will pretty much only be better than Dirk's story with Dallas in the small detail of it being his home town. However, Dirk's will still impress more because he remained loyal through the good and bad times, until he got it done, something Lebron has not done.
 
Man Miami fans gonna be real hurt by him leaving.....which is insane since they've only been Basketball fans for four years anyway.
 
Danny1982 said:
Yup, and only staying with Miami now will help him repair that image. Like Zen said, Cleveland looks like the better option for Lebron than Miami (in term of help) right now, so if he decides to stick with Miami now, and help them win another 2-3 titles, now that will be big for his legacy imo.

Going back to Cleveland will be a very good and touching story, but it will pretty much only be better than Dirk's story with Dallas in the small detail of it being his home town. However, Dirk's will still impress more because he remained loyal through the good and bad times, until he got it done, something Lebron has not done.
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Winning more in Miami would help his legacy but not like winning in Cleveland.

Comparing it to Dallas shows you don't understand the uniqueness of Cleveland. (Not a judgment, I don't expect you to follow MLB and NFL)
 
Eboue said:
Winning more in Miami would help his legacy but not like winning in Cleveland.

Comparing it to Dallas shows you don't understand the uniqueness of Cleveland. (Not a judgment, I don't expect you to follow MLB and NFL)
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I never claimed to be the best fan in the world. It's sports, not rocket science. You don't need a degree to discuss sports.

However I understood that you were referring to other sports, but to say that an NBA player's (worldwide) legacy is based on how a city did in baseball and football is something I simply disagree with.
 
Danny1982 said:
I never claimed to be the best fan in the world. It's sports, not rocket science. You don't need a degree to discuss sports.

However I understood that you were referring to other sports, but to say that an NBA player's (worldwide) legacy is based on how a city did in baseball and football is something I simply disagree with.
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That's what I'm saying Danny, I'm not trying to insult you. But Cleveland is unique.
 
Danny1982 said:
That's only the hate (or sympathy?) inside you talking. Come on, be serious.

Cleveland will mean nothing now for his legacy apart from its "sentimental value". It will only help repair his "villain" image, but it will not contribute anything to his "greatness", nor loyalty by the way. That ship has sailed for him with Cleveland the moment he left them when they were not good enough. Now if he wins with Cleveland, it's only because of the other great players they have, and he will only be viewed as an "opportunistic player" who kept jumping ships whenever the going gets tough.

If he manages to win another 3 with Miami, he will seriously be compared to the all-time greats, and dare I say Jordan? It will be really huge if he pulls that off, and it will greatly help him repair the bad reputation he has now of being "disloyal" and "jumping ships". If he leaves Miami now, he will actually be seen even more of a quitter, no matter what he does with Cleveland (unless he 3-peats with Cleveland probably).

But like I said in my previous post, people's judgement will be clouded now because of sentimental reasons (you know, the Heat hate and the sympathy they have for Cleveland fans), which is quite obvious when you say one title in Cleveland will mean more for his legacy than another 3 with Miami. I mean come on.

You will enjoy one in Cleveland much more than 3 in Miami though, I will give you that.
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Have to say I think you're way off here, Danny.

Everyone knows what LeBron is like, he's an opportunist with no sense of loyalty to his teammates. If Miami was the best team for him to be on he would stay, if he thinks it's Cleveland he goes there. Maybe one day he'll change, but this move has nothing to do with changing his image from 'opportunist' to 'loyal'.

So there will be no attempt, nor is there any attempt here by anyone, to 'repair his villain image' or gain 'sentimental value'. LeBron simply will go to Cleveland if he thinks his chances of winning more titles there is greater than in Miami.

I don't think the added value of winning a title in Cleveland has anything to do with his decision, though I agree there is some extra interest there for 'some' fans. But comparing 3 more titles in Miami to 1 in Cleveland isn't fair and very hard to judge.

Judgement won't be clouded by sentiment because very few will be simple enough to think LeBron is making a sentimental decision.
 
Zen said:
Man Miami fans gonna be real hurt by him leaving.....which is insane since they've only been Basketball fans for four years anyway.
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If you find and use a new way to work the system, don't be surprised when others use it against you!

Miami would definitely lose a lot of fair weather fans if their experiment breaks down.

Have to say it was wildly successful though.
 
feck Cleveland. That basketball team deserves nothing. Especially with the current owner. LeBron shouldn't go back for anything less than a max contract and a coach change (has Brown been fired?)
 
gooDevil said:
Have to say I think you're way off here, Danny.

Everyone knows what LeBron is like, he's an opportunist with no sense of loyalty to his teammates. If Miami was the best team for him to be on he would stay, if he thinks it's Cleveland he goes there. Maybe one day he'll change, but this move has nothing to do with changing his image from 'opportunist' to 'loyal'.

So there will be no attempt, nor is there any attempt here by anyone, to 'repair his villain image' or gain 'sentimental value'. LeBron simply will go to Cleveland if he thinks his chances of winning more titles there is greater than in Miami.

I don't think the added value of winning a title in Cleveland has anything to do with his decision, though I agree there is some extra interest there for 'some' fans. But comparing 3 more titles in Miami to 1 in Cleveland isn't fair and very hard to judge.

Judgement won't be clouded by sentiment because very few will be simple enough to think LeBron is making a sentimental decision.
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We are not talking about how Lebron will make his decision. We're talking about how his decision will affect his legacy.

Sentimental reasons will not cloud Lebron's judgement, but the people judgement right now. Most people outside of Miami want him to join the Cavs, not because it's "better for Lebron's legacy", but because they hated the success the Heat had in the last 4 years so much, that they can't take it anymore. They want somebody other than Miami winning, and they also want the Cavs fans to have some good times.

It's the exact same reason why most people were rooting against Miami for the last 4 years. Some fans of other teams were actually devastated last year when Miami won, which is pretty strange.

People's decision right now have more to do with hate/sentiments (sympathy for Cleveland fans) than actual reasoning. And that was my point.
 
Danny1982 said:
Most people outside of Miami want him to join the Cavs, not because it's "better for Lebron's legacy", but because they hated the success the Heat had in the last 4 years so much, that they can't take it anymore.

It's the exact same reason why most people were rooting against Miami for the last 4 years. Some fans of other teams were actually devastated last year when Miami won, which is pretty strange
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Calm down.
 
Danny1982 said:
In term of Lebron's legacy, of course it will hurt him a lot. To jump ships after failing for 7 years and losing trust in the ownership is one thing, but to jump ships after 4 years like those with Miami is a whole other thing.

Of course some will disagree out of sentimentality, but that is the reality.

However, if he goes back to Cleveland, nobody will more stupid than those fans who burned his jerseys lol.. Well, may be Dan Gilbert.
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So are you saying that leaving Miami after 4 years is a more serious 'offense against loyalty' than leaving Cleveland after 7?
 
Danny1982 said:
We are not talking about how Lebron will make his decision. We're talking about how his decision will affect his legacy.

Sentimental reasons will not cloud Lebron's judgement, but the people judgement right now. Most people outside of Miami want him to join the Cavs, not because it's "better for Lebron's legacy", but because they hated the success the Heat had in the last 4 years so much, that they can't take it anymore. They want somebody other than Miami winning, and they also want the Cavs fans to have some good times.

It's the exact same reason why most people were rooting against Miami for the last 4 years. Some fans of other teams were actually devastated last year when Miami won, which is pretty strange.

People's decision right now have more to do with hate/sentiments (sympathy for Cleveland fans) than actual reasoning. And that was my point.
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I'll rephrase:

Everyone knows what LeBron is like, he's an opportunist with no sense of loyalty to his teammates. If Miami was the best team for him to be on he would stay, if he thinks it's Cleveland he goes there. Maybe one day he'll change, but this move has nothing to do with changing his image from 'opportunist' to 'loyal'.

Thus his legacy will still be seen as lacking loyalty even if he stayed in Miami for the rest of his career. Because everyone knows he would only do that if it was the absolute best situation for him regardless of how it effected everyone else.

Moving to Cleveland won't add any 'sentimental value' to his legacy because everyone knows he's only going there, if he does go there, because that's what's best for him and no other considerations matter.

Only the number of titles he's acquires will matter to his legacy in this equation.

He cannot repair his legacy by staying in Miami, it would not show loyalty or that he won't 'jump ships'. He's only in Miami because he's a mercenary, he's not changed, moving to Cleveland would only emphasize that, his desire for a max deal shows that, in reality and in regards to his legacy.

I don't know about what everyone thinks, but I'll agree that everyone tends to hate the team that always beats them and is winning the titles they want.

I found the egotism behind James's 'decision' to be extremely distasteful, also I doubt he happen to really make up his mind at the last minute, he could have given Cleveland a heads up when he knew what he was going to do, that was unnecessary.

But, you know, kids these days. No respect.
 
I only watch NBA during play-offs and such but it seems a bit crazy to me that one title with a weakish team will mean more than three in any game.
 
MJJ said:
I only watch NBA during play-offs and such but it seems a bit crazy to me that one title with a weakish team will mean more than three in any game.
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It's like the Pele/Maradona debate. Pele achieved more with Brazil than Maradona did with Argentina. But he did so with much better group of players. The very reason why many prefer the latter.

In any case what Eboue is saying is a bit different. He is talking about the Cleveland's history of not winning in sports in recent times. LeBron would be seen as a trend breaker in that sense and would always be remembered for it.
 
crappycraperson said:
It's like the Pele/Maradona debate. Pele achieved more with Brazil than Maradona did with Argentina. But he did so with much better group of players. The very reason why many prefer the latter.

In any case what Eboue is saying is a bit different. He is talking about the Cleveland's history of not winning in sports in recent times. LeBron would be seen as a trend breaker in that sense and would always be remembered for it.
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Ahhh get it now. Thanks.
 
gooDevil said:
So are you saying that leaving Miami after 4 years is a more serious 'offense against loyalty' than leaving Cleveland after 7?
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I'm talking mainly about legacy here.

Yes, leaving after 4 successful years like the ones he had in Miami, just because another team might be better for future (and just because you lost one final) is worse than leaving a team that failed for 7 years, and an ownership that failed to build a winning team for 7 years.
 
It won't be seen as him jumping ship to a better situation, though, it'll be seen as him putting right the biggest black mark on his legacy - the way he left Cleveland.
 
Danny1982 said:
I'm talking mainly about legacy here.

Yes, leaving after 4 successful years like the ones he had in Miami, just because another team might be better for future (and just because you lost one final) is worse than leaving a team that failed for 7 years, and an ownership that failed to build a winning team for 7 years.
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He went to Miami to win, not for any other reason. If it isn't his best option anymore, he won't go back. Simple as that.
 
gooDevil said:
I'll rephrase:

Everyone knows what LeBron is like, he's an opportunist with no sense of loyalty to his teammates. If Miami was the best team for him to be on he would stay, if he thinks it's Cleveland he goes there. Maybe one day he'll change, but this move has nothing to do with changing his image from 'opportunist' to 'loyal'.

Thus his legacy will still be seen as lacking loyalty even if he stayed in Miami for the rest of his career. Because everyone knows he would only do that if it was the absolute best situation for him regardless of how it effected everyone else.

Moving to Cleveland won't add any 'sentimental value' to his legacy because everyone knows he's only going there, if he does go there, because that's what's best for him and no other considerations matter.

Only the number of titles he's acquires will matter to his legacy in this equation.

He cannot repair his legacy by staying in Miami, it would not show loyalty or that he won't 'jump ships'. He's only in Miami because he's a mercenary, he's not changed, moving to Cleveland would only emphasize that, his desire for a max deal shows that, in reality and in regards to his legacy.

I don't know about what everyone thinks, but I'll agree that everyone tends to hate the team that always beats them and is winning the titles they want.

I found the egotism behind James's 'decision' to be extremely distasteful, also I doubt he happen to really make up his mind at the last minute, he could have given Cleveland a heads up when he knew what he was going to do, that was unnecessary.

But, you know, kids these days. No respect.
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I agree with the bolded parts.

You're mixing up loyalty and legacy here. What I mean by legacy I don't mean show of loyalty. I mean he will be remembered as one of the greatest ever, and be compared to the likes of Jordan, Magic, and even Kobe. The big name usually stay where they are and force the players to come to them, and force the ownership to build a good team around them, and then lead that team to victory. He already hurt that image by leaving Cleveland, but, there is also a reasonable excuse that he didn't just leave because he failed once or twice. He left because he lost trust in the ownership. He thought the ownership was unable to build the team he needs, and supply him with the complementary pieces he needs to succeed.

Now he got that ownership in Miami, and he did prove that he will not only win, but he was by the far the MVP of that team that won. No he has no excuse. If he leaves again then the blame will be mostly on him for leaving both times, rather than Dan Gilbert.

I'm not talking ethics or loyalty here. I'm talking about proving that he is at the same level of the likes of Magic, Kobe, and Jordan.. If he stays in Miami and wins as many rings as those, then it would be easy to say that he's as good as them, he was just drafted by the wrong club. But switching twice makes it really hard to compare him to Kobe or Magic, even if he won 5 rings. That was my point.
 
Scrumpet said:
It won't be seen as him jumping ship to a better situation, though, it'll be seen as him putting right the biggest black mark on his legacy - the way he left Cleveland.
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Nope, right now, with the current situation Miami and Cleveland are in, it will only be seen as switching back because the Cavs have a better team. Your story is the story many would like to write, but that's not the reality, and with time, everybody will agree.
 
crappycraperson said:
It's like the Pele/Maradona debate. Pele achieved more with Brazil than Maradona did with Argentina. But he did so with much better group of players. The very reason why many prefer the latter.

In any case what Eboue is saying is a bit different. He is talking about the Cleveland's history of not winning in sports in recent times. LeBron would be seen as a trend breaker in that sense and would always be remembered for it.
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This is the exact opposite to what's happening now. Right now Cleveland is the team with the better players, which is exactly why I said staying in Miami will mean more to his legacy than switching to the better team.
 
Danny1982 said:
Nope, right now, with the current situation Miami and Cleveland are in, it will only be seen as switching back because the Cavs have a better team. Your story is the story many would like to write, but that's not the reality, and with time, everybody will agree.
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Well, we disagree.
 
Danny1982 said:
So you think he's going back to Cleveland for sentimental reasons?
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If he does go back, yeah I think that'll be a big part of the reason. Does Lebron, a ball dominant point guard in Irving and a few other young players who may or may not become very good really make a better team right now than Lebron, Bosh, Wade, Allen and whatever free agents Riley can scramble together? If it was all about making the best team, surely several other teams would be more attractive than Cleveland.
 
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By the way, it's pretty much a sure thing now that he's going back to Cleveland. Even Miami insiders are hinting that he's going back now..
 
Scrumpet said:
If he does go back, yeah I think that'll be a big part of the reason. Does Lebron, a ball dominant point guard in Irving and a few other young players who may or may become very good really make a better team right now than Lebron, Bosh, Wade, Allen and whatever free agents Riley can scramble together? If it was all about making the best team, surely several other teams would be more attractive than Cleveland.
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He can't go to a third team, because he knows that will completely destroy his legacy. At this stage of his career he's pretty much down to two viable options, Cleveland or Miami. He didn't choose Cleveland this time for sentimental reasons, but because they have a better team.
 
Eboue said:
How can you know his reasons Danny? Isn't it likely both played a part?
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Because he said himself after the finals, very clearly (talking about his future): "It's all about winning for me. It's all about winning."
 
Cleveland apparently have Miami's first round pick for 2015.

James goes to Cleveland, Miami become a lottery team and 100% guaranteed Cleveland will get the first overall pick agrain. Well played Lebron.
 
Skills said:
Cleveland apparently have Miami's first round pick for 2015.

James goes to Cleveland, Miami become a lottery team and 100% guaranteed Cleveland will get the first overall pick agrain. Well played Lebron.
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That pick is protected 1-10 though.
 
Eboue said:
Well he was hardly going to explain his reasons for going to Cleveland before he had decided to actually go to Cleveland.
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We know how much Cleveland means to him last time he was there, when they didn't have a good enough squad.

He really meant every word he said there, and he proved it before. That's at least what I believe.
 
Danny1982 said:
That pick is protected 1-10 though.
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I read that but I wasn't sure what it meant. So it means that they will only get the pick if it's not in the top 10 for 2015 or 2016. Fair game in 2017.
 
Danny1982 said:
We know how much Cleveland means to him last time he was there, when they didn't have a good enough squad.

He really meant every word he said there, and he proved it before. That's at least what I believe.
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Maybe Cleveland meant a lot to him but 1) winning meant more and 2) they had a poor supporting cast.

Now Cleveland could still mean a lot to him but 2) had improved and satisfies 1) as well?
 
Skills said:
I read that but I wasn't sure what it meant. So it means that they will only get the pick if it's not in the top 10 for 2015 or 2016. Fair game in 2017.
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Yup, pretty much like what Philly did to Miami, who had their first pick for the last two or three seasons, but it was lottery protected so Philadelphia made sure they suck (I mean really suck) every year so Miami won't get that pick.
 
Eboue said:
Maybe Cleveland meant a lot to him but 1) winning meant more and 2) they had a poor supporting cast.

Now Cleveland could still mean a lot to him but 2) had improved and satisfies 1) as well?
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Well obviously only Lebron can answer this question with 100% certainty, but for me, I thought he showed enough so far to make me of that opinion. Especially after the Decision I.
 
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