Murtough, Fletcher & "Manager" dynamic

[Revaulx]

Seeing Fletcher on the touchline dishing out instructions is infuriating I have no clue how he's wormed himself into a top position he has zero experience and hasn't been at United for about almost 10 years

Jobs for the boys as usual

Fletcher’s rapid rise through the ranks is very odd, and I don’t blame people for being sceptical.

From looking at their interaction in the dugout, it appears that Ralf hasn’t had Fletcher foisted upon him under sufferance, but rather that Ralf has picked him to be his trusted lieutenant. Phelan, on the other hand, seems to have a much reduced role.

I think it’s a bit premature to assume that Ralf is an idiot because he likes Fletcher, regardless of how the latter managed to get taken on in the first place.

 

[#07]

.

Whether a prospective coach wants to exert zonal/positional control via ball possession, using the Michels/Cruyff blueprint, or wants to implement a fast transition play style with heavy emphasis on quick,incisive vertical passes. What they have in common is that both approaches look to press high and play the game in the opponents half. Applying pressure high up the pitch isn't something we should define a coach by imo, because in the game today the coaches who look to play the game in the opponents half with and without the ball, will have their teams applying high pressure by default.

Rangnick and ten Hag have more in common than most people realise imo. Of course there's subtle differences, which I've explained above. But both coaches look to play the game in the opponents half with emphasis on verticality. Ten Hag isn't wedded to the Michels/Cruyff blueprint and his Ajax team is like a hybrid version of a Jurgen Klopp and a Guardiola team imo, that has the ability to control possession, which gives them a controlled rest phase or to explode on the turn over with heavy emphasis on verticality.

Also clubs like Bayern, Dortmund and even RB Leipzig have changed head coaches, who were different in their approaches to the game. Rangnick brought in Nagelsmann to replace Hassenhuttl at Leipzig, and Hassenhuttl's football was more in line with Rangnick's approach. Bayern replaced Guardiola with Ancelotti and Dortmund went from Jurgen Klopp, who is a fast transition coach to Thomas Tuchel who is a possession coach. They also fired possession coach Favre and replaced him with fast transition coach Marco Rose.

I understand where you're coming from, to an extent.

However, in terms of the club developing a blueprint to buy against, what you are illustrating is that of the coaches on our supposed shortlist none are that aligned to Rangnick.

You can make a good case, which you have, that Ten Hag's football is relatively speaking not too dissimilar to Rangnick's. Certainly not as far from it as the Barcelona school. However, it is a different style.

Now it may be a the case that's the style the club wants to pivot towards. However, the managerial shortlist given to the Athletic et al doesn't suggest that. As there is relatively little uniting the ideas of the four coaches on it besides 'pressing' in the broadest sense (with Lopetegui it's really stretching it).

That brings me back to my original point: If there was a plan, created and implemented by a Football Director, the club should be more than capable of buying players now. It should not matter that we don't know who the coach will be. The Football Director should have enough of an idea about how he wants to play, and the kind of coach that can make that happen, to be able to strengthen where we know we need to.

Having put together such an eclectic list of candidates to succeed Rangnick just shows no such plan exists. If the goal was to move towards X style then every coach on the shortlist would be an obvious proponent of that style. Yet the only thing that unites them all is being 'hot' at the moment. In typical Man Utd fashion for the past nine years.

 

[Laurencio]

The very fact that it is being reported that we didn't sign anyone this window while being offered Kamara and Zakaria, being asked about making a bid for Haidara (a deal Ragnick ser up) and having been in concrete talks with Tchouameni (while not even attempting to buy him reportedly) because we are "waiting to see who the next manager is and who he will want" kinda shows us how the football director isn't really in charge after all...

We got Ragnick as an interim, but we still don't know who we want as our permanent manager? Really? It can't be that difficult to choose a target, ask him if he wants to join in the summer, get things drawn up and plan accordingly? Why do we not know, how do we not know?

But then the argument was that Ragnick would perhaps move upstairs and he would be involved with player recruitment - and yet we can't bring anyone in without knowing who the next manager is? So clearly that wasn't true either. Iit might be Ragnick even, but he can't sign players even when he secures the deal and ensures the selling club offers him to us as was the case with Haidara. So that looks very unlikely.

We all thought that with a director of football, a set playing style and ethos will guide all appointments and recruitments, surely? But no, because we can't recruit as we don't know who the next man through the door will be - it boggles the mind.

Fabrizio Romano has been saying that this is the position at the club since December - and he seems to be right.

Rant over
.. sorry...

 

[Adnan]

.

I understand where you're coming from, to an extent.

However, in terms of the club developing a blueprint to buy against, what you are illustrating is that of the coaches on our supposed shortlist none are that aligned to Rangnick.

You can make a good case, which you have, that Ten Hag's football is relatively speaking not too dissimilar to Rangnick's. Certainly not as far from it as the Barcelona school. However, it is a different style.

Now it may be a the case that's the style the club wants to pivot towards. However, the managerial shortlist given to the Athletic et al doesn't suggest that. As there is relatively little uniting the ideas of the four coaches on it besides 'pressing' in the broadest sense (with Lopetegui it's really stretching it).

That brings me back to my original point: If there was a plan, created and implemented by a Football Director, the club should be more than capable of buying players now. It should not matter that we don't know who the coach will be. The Football Director should have enough of an idea about how he wants to play, and the kind of coach that can make that happen, to be able to strengthen where we know we need to.

Having put together such an eclectic list of candidates to succeed Rangnick just shows no such plan exists. If the goal was to move towards X style then every coach on the shortlist would be an obvious proponent of that style. Yet the only thing that unites them all is being 'hot' at the moment. In typical Man Utd fashion for the past nine years.

With all due to respect it seems like you're asking for a reality that doesn't exist at most clubs elsewhere. I've given you examples of Bayern, Dortmund and Rangnick himself replacing coaches at RB Leipzig who aren't wedded in style to their previous appointments. As long as the club bring in a head coach, who looks to impose his style on the opposition by playing in the opponents half, then I don't believe it matters if that coach is someone who looks to implement a fast transition, high tempo play style, with heavy emphasis on playing a very direct game, or someone who looks to exert zonal/positional control via controlling possession in a vertical axis. Even possession based coaches aren't alike and are different in their approach to the game. For example we have Tiki Taca, which is possession without purpose, and then we have the juego de Posicion (positional control) concept, which I would refer to as possession with purpose to free up space for the free man (3rd man).

So if Rangnick can create a team dynamic, where we can implement a high compact block and integrate a few of the youth players, then that will create the conditions for ten Hag, Rangnick himself, Rodgers, Pochettino, Potter or Enrique to take it on.

I think a DoF, Sporting director, head of football or whatever title he's given, needs to work with the head coach to align recruitment, which is important. And for all we know, he's already in contact with the next head coach, and it's decided who the transfers targets will be. I don't know if Murtough will be successful, but if we look at our domestic rivals, then we have to say that Edwards at Liverpool, Marwood at City and Petr Cech and Marina at Chelsea, had even less experience on the football side than Murtough before they arrived at their respective clubs. I'm giving Murtough a chance and from the information I've gleaned over the years, the job isn't difficult if everyone pulls in the same direction working towards a common goal.

 

[pascell]

I'd love it to be ten Hag. But knowing how this club is run, it'll be Poch once he's sacked by PSG, which could be soon if they're knocked out the CL by Real.

 

[Laurencio]

the job isn't difficult if everyone pulls in the same direction working towards a common goal.

That's pretty much the core of the issue. If everyone, including the men sanctioning contracts and budgets, pulls in the same direction it works. The question is, do they really?

 

[Drz]

This is pure speculation, but I guess the idea from the beginning is that RR will move upstairs and "educate" Fletcher and Murtough on the Football Director and Sporting Director rolls with a new manager coming in the summer.
So they have split Murtough and Fletcher so the latter can be close to RR in training and on the bench to see how he assesses a squad whilst the former starts with getting to grips with the admin side of the game (from Woody presumably).
I think once the 6 months are over the plan would be for RR and Fletcher to move upstairs and work in concert with Murtough.

 

[Mr PG]

People can speculate all they want but United have never passed over a successful manager. If Ralf keeps performing like he is, the job is his if we get top 4. The club loves stability to the extent they stuck with Ole through thick n thin to the point of almost sacrificing the season. Hiring Ralf was a clear intention to go the German route following in the footsteps of Chelsea and liverpool.. the most successful clubs not name City who play the Spanish style but all their players are possession players/ technically gifted. All this points to Ralf being the man if he wants it.

 

[Adnan]

That's pretty much the core of the issue. If everyone, including the men sanctioning contracts and budgets, pulls in the same direction it works. The question is, do they really?

The answer is no imo, because you just have to have a look at the names on the transfer committee, and it becomes clear that the first team Manager (Mourinho, Sokskjaer) is head of football, and they're also allowed their own scouts. Solskjaer had Simon Wells and Mike Phelan on the committee, and if you listen to Phelan, it's pretty clear that he doesn't place much emphasis on data analysis and his coaching mindset is from a bygone era. Which is completely polar opposite to Lawlor, Bout and Court, who back the scouting up with data analysis. You see the issue there? I don't believe most fans understand this.

So whether the club scouts, scouted 900 fullbacks or 900,000 fullbacks is irrelevant, because ultimately the decision on who to pursue was with Solskjaer, Phelan and Simon Wells, who had the power to set the direction going forward, and made recruitment decisions independently from the club's recruitment department. Solskjaer was the head of football and even went on record many times stating that United was a club that always gave control to the Manager and that wouldn't change.

I do believe the club's recruitment department signed Amad and Pellistri, though. Because it was said those two signings were two that the United youth scouts recommended after watching the two players for several years playing youth football, and the board backed them.

 

[Laurencio]

The answer is no imo, because you just have to have a look at the names on the transfer committee, and it becomes clear that the first team Manager (Mourinho, Sokskjaer) is head of football, and they're also allowed their own scouts. Solskjaer had Simon Wells and Mike Phelan on the committee, and if you listen to Phelan, it's pretty clear that he doesn't place much emphasis on data analysis and his coaching mindset is from a bygone era. Which is completely polar opposite to Lawlor, Bout and Court, who back the scouting up with data analysis. You see the issue there? I don't believe most fans understand this.

So whether the club scouts, scouted 900 fullbacks or 900,000 fullbacks is irrelevant, because ultimately the decision on who to pursue was with Solskjaer, Phelan and Simon Wells, who had the power to set the direction going forward, and made recruitment decisions independently from the club's recruitment department. Solskjaer was the head of football and even went on record many times stating that United was a club that always gave control to the Manager and that wouldn't change.

I do believe the club's recruitment department signed Amad and Pellistri, though. Because it was said those two signings were two that the United youth scouts recommended after watching the two players for several years playing youth football, and the board backed them.

This is exactly why I get so frustrated. I hoped this would change after Ole was sacked, and that Murthough would take on a more traditional DoF role, which could have made recruitment possible independent of who the next manager is. Unfortunately that doesn't look like it is the case...

Add to that the information reported that Joel Glazer has the final say on managerial appointments, sackings and even transfers (Ronaldo), it does not feel like Murthough has been given anywhere near the sort of freedom necessary for long term planning?

The youth department seems pretty data driven, a lot of very talented youngsters have been recruited - so maybe that department is running a little more autonomously?

 

[SalfordRed18]

The very fact that it is being reported that we didn't sign anyone this window while being offered Kamara and Zakaria, being asked about making a bid for Haidara (a deal Ragnick ser up) and having been in concrete talks with Tchouameni (while not even attempting to buy him reportedly) because we are "waiting to see who the next manager is and who he will want" kinda shows us how the football director isn't really in charge after all...

We got Ragnick as an interim, but we still don't know who we want as our permanent manager? Really? It can't be that difficult to choose a target, ask him if he wants to join in the summer, get things drawn up and plan accordingly? Why do we not know, how do we not know?

But then the argument was that Ragnick would perhaps move upstairs and he would be involved with player recruitment - and yet we can't bring anyone in without knowing who the next manager is? So clearly that wasn't true either. Iit might be Ragnick even, but he can't sign players even when he secures the deal and ensures the selling club offers him to us as was the case with Haidara. So that looks very unlikely.

We all thought that with a director of football, a set playing style and ethos will guide all appointments and recruitments, surely? But no, because we can't recruit as we don't know who the next man through the door will be - it boggles the mind.

Fabrizio Romano has been saying that this is the position at the club since December - and he seems to be right.

Rant over
.. sorry...

That's hilariously reductionist.

 

[Laurencio]

That's hilariously reductionist.

I know. Hence the "Rant over ...sorry..."

 

[wolvored]

Looking at the transfer window and the statement that they didnt sign anyone as they were waiting for the next manager to see who he wants, suggests to me someone has already agreed to take over and didnt fancy Kamara, Zakaria etc that we were linked with by the media.

 

[jem]

Looking at the transfer window and the statement that they didnt sign anyone as they were waiting for the next manager to see who he wants, suggests to me someone has already agreed to take over and didnt fancy Kamara, Zakaria etc that we were linked with by the media.

I think you give our board far too much credit.

 

[jem]

I am hoping that Rangnick is made sporting director and he would end up pushing those two (alongside Judge) out. None of them have experience in their job and Judge/Murtough has been in this mess for years.

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

 

[Dante]

The answer is no imo, because you just have to have a look at the names on the transfer committee, and it becomes clear that the first team Manager (Mourinho, Sokskjaer) is head of football, and they're also allowed their own scouts. Solskjaer had Simon Wells and Mike Phelan on the committee, and if you listen to Phelan, it's pretty clear that he doesn't place much emphasis on data analysis and his coaching mindset is from a bygone era. Which is completely polar opposite to Lawlor, Bout and Court, who back the scouting up with data analysis. You see the issue there? I don't believe most fans understand this.

So whether the club scouts, scouted 900 fullbacks or 900,000 fullbacks is irrelevant, because ultimately the decision on who to pursue was with Solskjaer, Phelan and Simon Wells, who had the power to set the direction going forward, and made recruitment decisions independently from the club's recruitment department. Solskjaer was the head of football and even went on record many times stating that United was a club that always gave control to the Manager and that wouldn't change.

I do believe the club's recruitment department signed Amad and Pellistri, though. Because it was said those two signings were two that the United youth scouts recommended after watching the two players for several years playing youth football, and the board backed them.

So everything bad is the fault of the people you don't like, and everything good is the result of the people you do like.

When you have to create fantasies and conspiracy theories to frame different people as angels and devils, that's textbook 'having an agenda'. Just so you know.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

While I'm not and will never try to defend the leeches that own us or the hilariously incompetent Woodward that dragged us through hell the past 8 years or so;

One has to wonder about the management of other ""Elite Clubs"" (past or present) as a point of reference.

While everyone and their dog knows that United has been a laughing stock since 2013 (and it wouldn't be far fetched to claim that the cracks were there in Fergie's last couple of years), You have to wonder what those other big clubs who're unlike United are doing consistently right.

Pool- shitty owners as well, will bite them on the ass once Klopp leaves, not much of a 'structure' besides people who're brilliant at what they do (Edwards leaving will hopefully be a big problem for them)

Juve- lauded as a club that's been managed brilliantly for a decade or so- but then what happened? why doesn't it work anymore?

Bayern- has been doing unbelievably well all these recent years. but then the very same management who got it spot on with Pep, Heynckes, Flick and Nagelsmann has also appointed Klinsmann, Magath and Kovac who were utter duds. I remember Bayern taking absolute ages to admit they got it wrong with Kovac (Hoeness the prime culprit) and their fans being furious with the clubs' decision-making processes.

and now City, everyone's chief example of how it should be done (I agree). Their unlimited funds and way of going about their corrupt business without being punished obviusly helps, but surely they managed to build this structure that we as United fans envy. Genius of a manager, football men in Begiristain and Soriano who make sure Pep gets what he wants across all levels of the board; Their youth teams playing the same style as their first team a per reports (never watched them obviously).

I believe that City is an anomaly and that their dominance will fall apart once Pep fecks off, even when they'll still have a "football structure" to boast about. We just don't know what Pep's people do in the background. and so long as their as successful as they've sadly been the past decade, we don't really care. We just know that they're good and that we should emulate what they do (and then one has to wonder who the hell this Murtough guy is, and what the hell has Darren Fletcher done in his post-playing days to merit being in a similar position the Begiristain/Soriano/whoever that is at City?).

the moment City stops being dominant, people will also start critisising their "football men". look at Klopp and his people at Dortmund, how washed up they seemingly were in that season when they when on relegation form early into the season. How many of us laughed at him after his first (second?) season at Pool when they lost that final of the Europa, where Klopp once again showed what a loser he is, where Pool once again had no bottle...

if all it took was a lot of money, a very good manager and some 2-3 people as his trusted men who know their onions in the background, I suspect that we'd have an easier task at our hands than what we're currenty face.

Chelsea have money and a very good manager at their disposal. but then Tuchel was revered as the messiah last summer, only to turn into a flop in the eyes of many some months down the line. Are chelsea a club that's well managed? hit/miss with Jose, miss with Lampard, relatively hit it with Tuchel...

the point i'm trying to make is that we as fans better let go of this fantasy that many of us share, of getting back to being necessarily the very best.
We should aspire to compete with the best of them, no less and no more. no lowering of expectations and no illusions of grandeur either.

It'll always be hit and miss from now on. we will have tons of barren years amid times of success (one could fecking hope), preferably with other owners.

But while football is no chess and no rocket science,

this entire "oh ffs, just buy a couple of midfielders and a right-back, appoint Ten Haag and play a 4-3-3" needs to die. not that simple. to get back to the places we were accustomed to as fans who grew up with Fergie, we'll have to stumble upon genius- be it the manager, his people or players that'll possess this extra something that isn't always shown or known on paper- and have other factors such as luck and feck ups from our rivals also come into play.

We should do what we can (progressive manager so to speak, better & suitable players to fit into a certain style, it's now like these things don't matter, surely they do) and hope that things also click beyond our direct control.

 

[DSG]

The very fact that it is being reported that we didn't sign anyone this window while being offered Kamara and Zakaria, being asked about making a bid for Haidara (a deal Ragnick ser up) and having been in concrete talks with Tchouameni (while not even attempting to buy him reportedly) because we are "waiting to see who the next manager is and who he will want" kinda shows us how the football director isn't really in charge after all...

We got Ragnick as an interim, but we still don't know who we want as our permanent manager? Really? It can't be that difficult to choose a target, ask him if he wants to join in the summer, get things drawn up and plan accordingly? Why do we not know, how do we not know?

But then the argument was that Ragnick would perhaps move upstairs and he would be involved with player recruitment - and yet we can't bring anyone in without knowing who the next manager is? So clearly that wasn't true either. Iit might be Ragnick even, but he can't sign players even when he secures the deal and ensures the selling club offers him to us as was the case with Haidara. So that looks very unlikely.

We all thought that with a director of football, a set playing style and ethos will guide all appointments and recruitments, surely? But no, because we can't recruit as we don't know who the next man through the door will be - it boggles the mind.

Fabrizio Romano has been saying that this is the position at the club since December - and he seems to be right.

Rant over
.. sorry...

Agree with the tenor of this post wholeheartedly. Weak board leadership has led us to the absolute cluster feck we are in Right now. Your overarching goal as a club is to win trophies and make money. Period.

In the meantime, you feck around, not buying anyone because you are afraid that it won’t fit the [fill in the blank here] new manager. It won’t fit with his style or player type, etc. So the answer is *do nothing* because of a bunch of perceived issues that have nothing to do with your end goal: win trophies, make money.

Do you think Real Madrid, PSG, Chelsea, Bayern, City and Liverpool would “do nothing”? Feck no. Cause this is what is going to happen: you won’t make top 4, missing the CL, mostly because you didn’t strengthen a huge weakness. You miss out on Ten Hag and Poch, and it’s another season in purgatory.

.

With all due to respect it seems like you're asking for a reality that doesn't exist at most clubs elsewhere. I've given you examples of Bayern, Dortmund and Rangnick himself replacing coaches at RB Leipzig who aren't wedded in style to their previous appointments. As long as the club bring in a head coach, who looks to impose his style on the opposition by playing in the opponents half, then I don't believe it matters if that coach is someone who looks to implement a fast transition, high tempo play style, with heavy emphasis on playing a very direct game, or someone who looks to exert zonal/positional control via controlling possession in a vertical axis. Even possession based coaches aren't alike and are different in their approach to the game. For example we have Tiki Taca, which is possession without purpose, and then we have the juego de Posicion (positional control) concept, which I would refer to as possession with purpose to free up space for the free man (3rd man).

So if Rangnick can create a team dynamic, where we can implement a high compact block and integrate a few of the youth players, then that will create the conditions for ten Hag, Rangnick himself, Rodgers, Pochettino, Potter or Enrique to take it on.

I think a DoF, Sporting director, head of football or whatever title he's given, needs to work with the head coach to align recruitment, which is important. And for all we know, he's already in contact with the next head coach, and it's decided who the transfers targets will be. I don't know if Murtough will be successful, but if we look at our domestic rivals, then we have to say that Edwards at Liverpool, Marwood at City and Petr Cech and Marina at Chelsea, had even less experience on the football side than Murtough before they arrived at their respective clubs. I'm giving Murtough a chance and from the information I've gleaned over the years, the job isn't difficult if everyone pulls in the same direction working towards a common goal.

With all due respect, I believe most on the Caf and most of those in the club are overthinking this. The goal is not to implement a style. It’s to win. Real has done just fine over the last decade without a high press or tiki taka as a defining style. Nagelsmann was tactically quite different from Ralf, but he’s a great coach! A great coach takes the hand he’s dealt —the players he has — and gets results.

This last window was an absolute farce, and our failure to address our issues was a complete disaster. To blame this on the lack of a permanent manager / undefined tactical philosophy is irresponsible.

As you can tell, I’ve been incredibly disappointed with the club, Ralf, the handling of the window…. Pretty much everything since Ralf joined.

 

[devilish]

What's that meant to prove? It clearly says there he had no say in first team operations before being promoted. Which was my whole point.

That's the official site. Where are you getting your information from? Tribalfootball maybe?

 

[Adnan]

So everything bad is the fault of the people you don't like, and everything good is the result of the people you do like.

When you have to create fantasies and conspiracy theories to frame different people as angels and devils, that's textbook 'having an agenda'. Just so you know.

It's not about liking or disliking someone, but rather calling a spade a spade. You're free to challenge me on anything you disagree with. I will back up everything with logic and reason.

 

[Adnan]

Agree with the tenor of this post wholeheartedly. Weak board leadership has led us to the absolute cluster feck we are in Right now. Your overarching goal as a club is to win trophies and make money. Period.

In the meantime, you feck around, not buying anyone because you are afraid that it won’t fit the [fill in the blank here] new manager. It won’t fit with his style or player type, etc. So the answer is *do nothing* because of a bunch of perceived issues that have nothing to do with your end goal: win trophies, make money.

Do you think Real Madrid, PSG, Chelsea, Bayern, City and Liverpool would “do nothing”? Feck no. Cause this is what is going to happen: you won’t make top 4, missing the CL, mostly because you didn’t strengthen a huge weakness. You miss out on Ten Hag and Poch, and it’s another season in purgatory.



With all due respect, I believe most on the Caf and most of those in the club are overthinking this. The goal is not to implement a style. It’s to win. Real has done just fine over the last decade without a high press or tiki taka as a defining style. Nagelsmann was tactically quite different from Ralf, but he’s a great coach! A great coach takes the hand he’s dealt —the players he has — and gets results.

This last window was an absolute farce, and our failure to address our issues was a complete disaster. To blame this on the lack of a permanent manager / undefined tactical philosophy is irresponsible.

As you can tell, I’ve been incredibly disappointed with the club, Ralf, the handling of the window…. Pretty much everything since Ralf joined.

Real Madrid are in a unique position of having the biggest pull in world football and hence have had the best players in the world. And I never said you can't win playing without implementing a high press etc.

Nagelsman is potentially a great head coach but he isn't one right now and has won nothing significant to date.

Being disappointed is fine, we all expected more from the season.

 

[wolvored]

I think you give our board far too much credit.

Well it's now coming out that Pocc is off end of the season. Doesn't take too much of a push to put two and two together

 

[TheReligion]

Finished club

Mates FC

I’m done

 

[Gordon Godot]

Agree with the tenor of this post wholeheartedly. Weak board leadership has led us to the absolute cluster feck we are in Right now. Your overarching goal as a club is to win trophies and make money. Period.

In the meantime, you feck around, not buying anyone because you are afraid that it won’t fit the [fill in the blank here] new manager. It won’t fit with his style or player type, etc. So the answer is *do nothing* because of a bunch of perceived issues that have nothing to do with your end goal: win trophies, make money.

Do you think Real Madrid, PSG, Chelsea, Bayern, City and Liverpool would “do nothing”? Feck no. Cause this is what is going to happen: you won’t make top 4, missing the CL, mostly because you didn’t strengthen a huge weakness. You miss out on Ten Hag and Poch, and it’s another season in purgatory.



With all due respect, I believe most on the Caf and most of those in the club are overthinking this. The goal is not to implement a style. It’s to win. Real has done just fine over the last decade without a high press or tiki taka as a defining style. Nagelsmann was tactically quite different from Ralf, but he’s a great coach! A great coach takes the hand he’s dealt —the players he has — and gets results.

This last window was an absolute farce, and our failure to address our issues was a complete disaster. To blame this on the lack of a permanent manager / undefined tactical philosophy is irresponsible.

As you can tell, I’ve been incredibly disappointed with the club, Ralf, the handling of the window…. Pretty much everything since Ralf joined.

I think you are the one not thinking enough. Other than RM, who do have a strong football foundation but also benefit from the support of the city/ Spanish govnt, the other most successful teams in wolrd football absolstely have clear football structures. A football philosophy is not set in stone and can evolve but its a PRODUCT of a coherent football structure, not a goal in itself. So dont use the philosophy point to obscure the need for a football structure. Look at the structure City built from scratch, what Chelsea, have or Bayern. Ciy went out and hired the best in the world and the various jobs they needed, and spent vast amounts on youth, They had success before Pep and will ahve it when he has gone, even if their overall dominance slips. United are a classic example of how to waste billions and drag a club into a mess by refusing to have a coherent football structure or to appoint people who are really well qualified to do the job, inckuding managers.

Learn from history, dont repeat it. Engage brain

 

[AneRu]

I understand where you're coming from, to an extent.

However, in terms of the club developing a blueprint to buy against, what you are illustrating is that of the coaches on our supposed shortlist none are that aligned to Rangnick.

You can make a good case, which you have, that Ten Hag's football is relatively speaking not too dissimilar to Rangnick's. Certainly not as far from it as the Barcelona school. However, it is a different style.

Now it may be a the case that's the style the club wants to pivot towards. However, the managerial shortlist given to the Athletic et al doesn't suggest that. As there is relatively little uniting the ideas of the four coaches on it besides 'pressing' in the broadest sense (with Lopetegui it's really stretching it).

That brings me back to my original point: If there was a plan, created and implemented by a Football Director, the club should be more than capable of buying players now. It should not matter that we don't know who the coach will be. The Football Director should have enough of an idea about how he wants to play, and the kind of coach that can make that happen, to be able to strengthen where we know we need to.

Having put together such an eclectic list of candidates to succeed Rangnick just shows no such plan exists. If the goal was to move towards X style then every coach on the shortlist would be an obvious proponent of that style. Yet the only thing that unites them all is being 'hot' at the moment. In typical Man Utd fashion for the past nine years.

These are just nuances, there is no reason Pogba couldn't play for Pep, Ferguson and Mourinho and still succeed. In the same vein McTominay, he has played prominent roles for Ole, Mourinho and Rangnick. I don't see how Kamara would have failed in a squad role for Ten Hag or Pochettino. This was a money saving excuse not a football one.

 

[wolvored]

While I'm not and will never try to defend the leeches that own us or the hilariously incompetent Woodward that dragged us through hell the past 8 years or so;

One has to wonder about the management of other ""Elite Clubs"" (past or present) as a point of reference.

While everyone and their dog knows that United has been a laughing stock since 2013 (and it wouldn't be far fetched to claim that the cracks were there in Fergie's last couple of years), You have to wonder what those other big clubs who're unlike United are doing consistently right.

Pool- shitty owners as well, will bite them on the ass once Klopp leaves, not much of a 'structure' besides people who're brilliant at what they do (Edwards leaving will hopefully be a big problem for them)

Juve- lauded as a club that's been managed brilliantly for a decade or so- but then what happened? why doesn't it work anymore?

Bayern- has been doing unbelievably well all these recent years. but then the very same management who got it spot on with Pep, Heynckes, Flick and Nagelsmann has also appointed Klinsmann, Magath and Kovac who were utter duds. I remember Bayern taking absolute ages to admit they got it wrong with Kovac (Hoeness the prime culprit) and their fans being furious with the clubs' decision-making processes.

and now City, everyone's chief example of how it should be done (I agree). Their unlimited funds and way of going about their corrupt business without being punished obviusly helps, but surely they managed to build this structure that we as United fans envy. Genius of a manager, football men in Begiristain and Soriano who make sure Pep gets what he wants across all levels of the board; Their youth teams playing the same style as their first team a per reports (never watched them obviously).

I believe that City is an anomaly and that their dominance will fall apart once Pep fecks off, even when they'll still have a "football structure" to boast about. We just don't know what Pep's people do in the background. and so long as their as successful as they've sadly been the past decade, we don't really care. We just know that they're good and that we should emulate what they do (and then one has to wonder who the hell this Murtough guy is, and what the hell has Darren Fletcher done in his post-playing days to merit being in a similar position the Begiristain/Soriano/whoever that is at City?).

the moment City stops being dominant, people will also start critisising their "football men". look at Klopp and his people at Dortmund, how washed up they seemingly were in that season when they when on relegation form early into the season. How many of us laughed at him after his first (second?) season at Pool when they lost that final of the Europa, where Klopp once again showed what a loser he is, where Pool once again had no bottle...

if all it took was a lot of money, a very good manager and some 2-3 people as his trusted men who know their onions in the background, I suspect that we'd have an easier task at our hands than what we're currenty face.

Chelsea have money and a very good manager at their disposal. but then Tuchel was revered as the messiah last summer, only to turn into a flop in the eyes of many some months down the line. Are chelsea a club that's well managed? hit/miss with Jose, miss with Lampard, relatively hit it with Tuchel...

the point i'm trying to make is that we as fans better let go of this fantasy that many of us share, of getting back to being necessarily the very best.
We should aspire to compete with the best of them, no less and no more. no lowering of expectations and no illusions of grandeur either.

It'll always be hit and miss from now on. we will have tons of barren years amid times of success (one could fecking hope), preferably with other owners.

But while football is no chess and no rocket science,

this entire "oh ffs, just buy a couple of midfielders and a right-back, appoint Ten Haag and play a 4-3-3" needs to die. not that simple. to get back to the places we were accustomed to as fans who grew up with Fergie, we'll have to stumble upon genius- be it the manager, his people or players that'll possess this extra something that isn't always shown or known on paper- and have other factors such as luck and feck ups from our rivals also come into play.

We should do what we can (progressive manager so to speak, better & suitable players to fit into a certain style, it's now like these things don't matter, surely they do) and hope that things also click beyond our direct control.

City and Chelsea have regularly won the big trophies whoever has been manager, since they got big money behind them. I fully expect Newcastle to follow suit. The difference is they change their manager from a position of power, so the next one has a decent squad with winners in it. Utd have been successful with one manager since 1970, and now whoever is manager inherits the shitfest of a moaning squad with no winners and that's the difference

 

[Gordon Godot]

City and Chelsea have regularly won the big trophies whoever has been manager, since they got big money behind them. I fully expect Newcastle to follow suit. The difference is they change their manager from a position of power, so the next one has a decent squad with winners in it. Utd have been successful with one manager since 1970, and now whoever is manager inherits the shitfest of a moaning squad with no winners and that's the difference

Agreed. Liverpool may struggle once Klopp goes but they spend money far better than United, lets see how resilient their strucutre are. But City and Chelsea show exacly what you can achieve, with money to invest in top people and youth, its not rocket science. Chelsea youth system would have been even more important to them without the deep pockets of the owner and a desire for instant results. Even if we dont in trophies I would expect far better football and a belief in youth. What I would call the United way, which is not mates and old boys FC

 

[UnitedSofa]

As you can tell, I’ve been incredibly disappointed with the club, Ralf, the handling of the window…. Pretty much everything since Ralf joined.

Did you expect instant results and we'd be dicking everyone in the league and everything will be hunky dory since Ralf waves his magic wand? Jheeze, Ralf has been in the job little over 12 weeks. Not exactly enough time to fix everything from the past 3-6 years now is it.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

I wish we'd hire Poch already so we can get this hard-on for him over already and then sack him.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Did you expect instant results and we'd be dicking everyone in the league and everything will be hunky dory since Ralf waves his magic wand? Jheeze, Ralf has been in the job little over 12 weeks. Not exactly enough time to fix everything from the past 3-6 years now is it.

Agree, its bad enough to see the ineptitude of the club board, but some of our fanbase....

 

[Revaulx]

Agree, its bad enough to see the ineptitude of the club board, but some of our fanbase....

Indeed.

There’s absolutely no guarantee that we’re going to see real change as a result of Woodward going, Murtough being given more power and Ralf coming in. None whatsoever.

But at least let’s give it a chance

 

[HailtotheKing]

The single biggest change we could make to improve us is having a world-class DOF. A guy that gives us a set style of play and helps us get players and managers that fit that. That way, we don't overpay on players, we don't buy the wrong players, we don't hire managers that won't fit the players and then have to sell them and buy more. Which we can't because we overpaid them.

Ed is gone. Arnold is supposed to be less interested in the football side, so should hopefully leave Murtough be. If Ralf really does move upstairs and have some control, I have hope. If it's all just a sham, we are doomed to repeat our mistakes. The fact they said they couldn't buy players because they don't know who the new manager is going to be, makes me seriously nervous.

 

[roseguy64]

That's the official site. Where are you getting your information from? Tribalfootball maybe?

So everyone's been involved in a conspiracy and Murtough was there overruling Mourinho/LVG/Ole/Woodward/Judge?

Good to know.

 

[devilish]

So everyone's been involved in a conspiracy and Murtough was there overruling Mourinho/LVG/Ole/Woodward/Judge?

Good to know.

Never said that. All I have done is to post Murtough's job description according to the official site.

 

[ICHM]

As far as I can see Murtough has been a total damp squib, he has affected absolutely nothing. Managers appointed without his say and players gone/in without him having the final say. What is he there for?

If I was an incoming manager I would want him gone.

 

[DSG]

Real Madrid are in a unique position of having the biggest pull in world football and hence have had the best players in the world. And I never said you can't win playing without implementing a high press etc.

Nagelsman is potentially a great head coach but he isn't one right now and has won nothing significant to date.

Being disappointed is fine, we all expected more from the season.

Chelsea? Liverpool? Bayern? PSG? Juventus? Do you see them ever being afraid to improve their squad, or delay squad improvement because they don’t have their next manager? Hell no. Chelsea just accumulates talent. Bayern is maybe the smartest buyer in the market and despite turnover in managers, just continues winning.

I think you are the one not thinking enough. Other than RM, who do have a strong football foundation but also benefit from the support of the city/ Spanish govnt, the other most successful teams in wolrd football absolstely have clear football structures. A football philosophy is not set in stone and can evolve but its a PRODUCT of a coherent football structure, not a goal in itself. So dont use the philosophy point to obscure the need for a football structure. Look at the structure City built from scratch, what Chelsea, have or Bayern. Ciy went out and hired the best in the world and the various jobs they needed, and spent vast amounts on youth, They had success before Pep and will ahve it when he has gone, even if their overall dominance slips. United are a classic example of how to waste billions and drag a club into a mess by refusing to have a coherent football structure or to appoint people who are really well qualified to do the job, inckuding managers.

Learn from history, dont repeat it. Engage brain

The fact that we are waiting to do business until we get our “forever manager” shows there is no structure. You seem to think we are installing a football structure and while installing this, you can’t operate to improve your team. I say that is absolute shite. Secondly, footballing philosophy is dandy, but if you are relying on a manager with a shelf life of 3 years to determine your philosophy, then you aren’t buying to fit a club wide ethos, you are buying to fit a temporary manager’s philosophy. A well run club will always be looking to accumulate talent so the next manager has the immediate resources to compete.

I love it how the Caf is saying, “well, Real Madrid is different.” Doesn’t that make them the gold standard that we should try and achieve? Didn’t we get close to that level from 2007-2012? We were the 1000 lb gorilla in the PL in those years. What changed? SAF left and we had a huge leadership vacuum. That never happens at Bayern, Real, City, PSG, Juventus.

Lastly, the mark of a substandard reply to a thread is to riff on the person you disagree with by accusing them of not thinking. Just because I have a different opinion from you — and yes these are opinions, both yours and mine — means that somehow I’m less intelligent than you, or my brain is faulty or… fill in the blank here. It’s lazy, it’s disrespectful and a bit offensive mate. It’s not even as if we are arguing… I’m saying the structure and philosophy should already be defined — that’s why we hired Ralf, isn’t it? — and therefore we should be actively improving the squad. You’re saying we should have structure and philosophy too, but that it should be determined when we get our manager. I don’t disagree that we need those to succeed, I’m saying that the club determines this, not the manager. Otherwise, you are changingevery 3 years…

 

[DSG]

Did you expect instant results and we'd be dicking everyone in the league and everything will be hunky dory since Ralf waves his magic wand? Jheeze, Ralf has been in the job little over 12 weeks. Not exactly enough time to fix everything from the past 3-6 years now is it.

We came 2nd last season, bought Varane, arguably the GOAT in Ronaldo and one of the most promising 21 yr old players in world football. Yes, at the bare minimum I expect to comfortably be in the top 4 and make a domestic cup final at least and progress to the quarters in the CL.

‘we’ve looked pretty shit since Ralf arrived with an easy fixture list. We’ve done nothing to improve the squad i the January window. We’ve had reports of mutiny in the dressing room and Ralf has shown to be a bit naive when dealing with the press. Have you been delighted with our performances? The standard is incredibly high to be the manager of Manchester United. I’d say it’s been a C- so far. Hope he turns it around.

 

[Adnan]

Chelsea? Liverpool? Bayern? PSG? Juventus? Do you see them ever being afraid to improve their squad, or delay squad improvement because they don’t have their next manager? Hell no. Chelsea just accumulates talent. Bayern is maybe the smartest buyer in the market and despite turnover in managers, just continues winning.



The fact that we are waiting to do business until we get our “forever manager” shows there is no structure. You seem to think we are installing a football structure and while installing this, you can’t operate to improve your team. I say that is absolute shite. Secondly, footballing philosophy is dandy, but if you are relying on a manager with a shelf life of 3 years to determine your philosophy, then you aren’t buying to fit a club wide ethos, you are buying to fit a temporary manager’s philosophy. A well run club will always be looking to accumulate talent so the next manager has the immediate resources to compete.

I love it how the Caf is saying, “well, Real Madrid is different.” Doesn’t that make them the gold standard that we should try and achieve? Didn’t we get close to that level from 2007-2012? We were the 1000 lb gorilla in the PL in those years. What changed? SAF left and we had a huge leadership vacuum. That never happens at Bayern, Real, City, PSG, Juventus.

Lastly, the mark of a substandard reply to a thread is to riff on the person you disagree with by accusing them of not thinking. Just because I have a different opinion from you — and yes these are opinions, both yours and mine — means that somehow I’m less intelligent than you, or my brain is faulty or… fill in the blank here. It’s lazy, it’s disrespectful and a bit offensive mate. It’s not even as if we are arguing… I’m saying the structure and philosophy should already be defined — that’s why we hired Ralf, isn’t it? — and therefore we should be actively improving the squad. You’re saying we should have structure and philosophy too, but that it should be determined when we get our manager. I don’t disagree that we need those to succeed, I’m saying that the club determines this, not the manager. Otherwise, you are changingevery 3 years…

Yes I have seen Chelsea, Liverpool, Bayern etc 'delay squad improvement' because the conditions for improvement didn't mesh well with their mid to long-term plan. Liverpool are a classic example of that and so are Bayern.

It's like what Klopp said, 'We don't sign players in January unless those players are also players we would sign in the summer window'

 

[DSG]

Yes I have seen Chelsea, Liverpool, Bayern etc 'delay squad improvement' because the conditions for improvement didn't mesh well with their mid to long-term plan. Liverpool are a classic example of that and so are Bayern.

It's like what Klopp said, 'We don't sign players in January unless those players are also players we would sign in the summer window'

Your Chelsea example? Bayern? Please illuminate. Klopp then turned right around last season and signed two CBs that they dumped in the summer to cover injuries to push for top 4?

‘This isn’t really leading anywhere. My point is this: to not strengthen to hedge/ attempt to reach top 4 was a mistake, and it will come back to hurt us. Great clubs are great clubs because the manager is an employee that follows the targets set by the club, not the person who defines the philosophy.

 

[Adnan]

Your Chelsea example? Bayern? Please illuminate. Klopp then turned right around last season and signed two CBs that they dumped in the summer to cover injuries to push for top 4?

‘This isn’t really leading anywhere. My point is this: to not strengthen to hedge/ attempt to reach top 4 was a mistake, and it will come back to hurt us. Great clubs are great clubs because the manager is an employee that follows the targets set by the club, not the person who defines the philosophy.

It was reported that Chelsea begun negotiations for Ziyech in December and ended up signing him in February. They failed to improve their team in January and delayed squad improvement if your criteria is to be used. I also discussed this at the time and my post history will attest to that.

Bayern tried signing Sane from City in 2019, and failed before coming back and signing him in 2020. Bayern delayed squad improvement if your criteria is to be used.

Liverpool spent most of the summer window in 2017, chasing Van Dijk and were reportedly unhappy with Southampton's £60m valuation. They ended up signing him in January 2018, for £75m and delayed squad improvement if your criteria is to be used.

You see the pattern above, those teams didn't panic and 'delayed squad improvement' because IMO, they didn't just focus on the now but also the mid to long-term.

I honestly couldn't care less about not making Champions League as things stand. I also don't believe it would impact us too much as far as signing the requisite profile of player. Because the players that are deemed the best may not suit the way you want to play. So signing players who fit the profile is more important as far as creating a well oiled machine. Solskjaer spoke about implementing a high pressing game style and we ended up signing Maguire and Wan Bissaka, who I even said at the time didn't suit the football Solskjaer was talking about.

Align the recruitment with a clear blueprint in mind and everything else will follow. There's plenty of potentially great players in England, France, Germany etc that have the technical and athletic requirements which I believe is a advantage in the game today.