MUFC vs Black Burn Rovers

Noodle is right except that England part though. He should've really gone to a loan in a championship or premier league or else he should've been given a starting spot in the carling cup as a STRIKER. Instead we're giving Micheal Owen and Diouf starting places. He's only 20 though and Fergie rates him very highly, so he might have a chance of becoming a good player here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So much wrong in that post. Where to begin...

How about the bit in bold.

Where did you get the impression that he "wanted to play in England"? He obviously wants to play for Manchester United but I don't remember him ever saying he's determined to stay in England. If he doesn't make it at United, I'd say he'd arguably prefer to go back to Italy than join a club lower down the league in England.

Taking your point to it's logical conclusion, surely any other English club should be, if anything, more reluctant to play him than a team in Italy?
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Sigh

Frederico Macheda said:
And the Italian football, the tactics, is different to the English. I prefer the English, it's more physical and faster.
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and the point is, we're trying to find out if he's got a future as a Manchester United player first and foremost. Where he goes if he doesn't make it at United is only relevant once United give up on him. So giving him games in England obviously makes more sense than giving him games in Italy.

It's difficult because we have so many very good strikers, but a loan move to an English team last season would have made a hell of a lot more sense than pairing him with Obertan a few times and then shovelling him off to Italy for six months. Even if he'd ended up only playing in a third of the games for a Championship side or team like Blackpool, he'd still have learn't a hell of a lot more and we'd have learn't a hell of a lot more about him.

Intead we haven't really moved him on at all from two and a half years ago, and he was already too far along to be wasting time in a reserve side then.
 
Decotron said:
Its easy to be harsh on Kiko but he was never a talented footballer to begin with, he's a talented finisher who finds himself stuck on the wing. Still he has "something" about him although time is against him in terms of showing it at United...
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I don't agree with that at all. He looked like a very well rounded forward when he first broke into the reserves. He'd lead the line, drop deep, make 'em and take 'em. Sadly, he doesn't look like the same player these days. I remember that little interview they used to do with academy players in the official mag. One of the questions was who's the worst trainer?, and everyone would mention Kiko. Perhaps that's what's caught up with him. Still, very young and very gifted. Wouldn't write him off just yet.
 
I think we need to give Kiko time, I think he had too much too young. His development was terrific up until those 2 goals which ultimately helped us win the league. I don't know if he took his eye off the ball then and started to believe his now hype but he seems to have developed little since then. To be fair to Kiko he hasn't really had a fair crack of whip and he's being played out of position even for the reserves. He should go the Welbeck route, go out on loan to the Championship then come back and make the step up to the Premiership with another loan spell.

I remember a few pre-season's ago SAF was waxing lyrical about him saying Kiko was the best finisher in these squad and he suggested he go on to be the next Old Trafford hero. SAF also said Welbeck could get into the England 2010 World Cup squad. However watching Welbeck against Leeds in the FA Cup I was extremely disappointed by Welbeck and I was left wondering if he was as good as SAF (I rated him highly too) thought he was. However with time and experience Welbeck is living up to his billing, Kiko needs this time and space to at least give him a chance to fulfil his potential.
 
noodlehair said:
Sigh
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And when it that quote from? That's right, after the loan deal went horribly wrong. No great surprise he wasn't Serie A's biggest fan at that point in time.

Doesn't change the fact that Sampdoria would have been no more reluctant to play him than any English club, if the concern was that he'll want to leave at some point in the future. If that's really an issue, we shouldn't send any player on any loan ever.
 
I don't get what you're getting at Pogue. If you're trying to develop a player into being part of your team, it blatantly makes more sense to send a player on loan to a team playing in the same country (and preferably League) as you than to pack him off to a foreign league after letting him sit around getting no type of experience at all for half a season...unless your intention is to bung him off back to Italy permanently.

Explain how a few games in a patched up United 11 alongside Gabriel Obertan, followed by sitting on the bench in Italy for six months has helped Macheda more than a loan similar to Welbeck or Cleverley's would have.
 
Tend to agree with Noodle here. We've mis-managed him on the surface of it.

Easy to say though. Players are more in control of their destiny than we imagine. If he performed to a level that warranted more first team games, he probably would have got them.
 
noodlehair said:
I don't get what you're getting at Pogue. If you're trying to develop a player into being part of your team, it blatantly makes more sense to send a player on loan to a team playing in the same country (and preferably League) as you than to pack him off to a foreign league after letting him sit around getting no type of experience at all for half a season...unless your intention is to bung him off back to Italy permanently.

Explain how a few games in a patched up United 11 alongside Gabriel Obertan, followed by sitting on the bench in Italy for six months has helped Macheda more than a loan similar to Welbeck or Cleverley's would have.
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I'm getting at the bit in your original post I highlighted in bold.

noodlehair said:
Then he was sent on loan to some Italian team which served absolutely no purpose whatsoever, and who weren't interested in using him anyway as they knew he wanted to play in England.
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It's your implication that sending him to an Italian club carries some sort of risk of not getting played that wouldn't have happened if he'd stayed in Blighty. This doesn't make any sense to me, as every club that takes a player on loan does so in the knowledge that the player doesn't actually want to stay there long term. If he didn't get picked in Italy there's no guarantee he would have got games in England. Chances are he just wasn't playing very well. It's not as though Sampdoria had a load of world class strikers keeping him out of the team.

As for your broader point about the loan in general, I'm sure the club wasn't the only party involved in the decision. There could have been all sorts of personal reasons why six months back home might have been appealing at the time. He's only just turned 20 years old and might not make any impact on the first team for another 2 or 3 years, if not longer. It seems incredibly melodramatic to talk about how we "fecked up big time with him" because of how he spent one half of last season (a grand total of 4 whole months)
 
Macheda was very close to joining another PL club in a loan deal on transfer deadline day but it fell through because we insisted on having a clause in the contract stipulating that he had to start PL games whenever he was fit enough to play.
 
GCHQ said:
Macheda was very close to joining another PL club in a loan deal on transfer deadline day but it fell through because we insisted on having a clause in the contract stipulating that he had to start PL games whenever he was fit enough to play.
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Any idea why we insisted on that clause for Macheda yet, presumably, didn't for Welbeck/Cleverley?
 
I feel for Macheda. He'll probably get another crack on tuesday but will no doubt be on the wing to accomodate berb and owen again.
 
GCHQ said:
I don't know to be honest. Possibly a reaction to the Sampdoria loan spell?
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Oh right. I thought you were talking about him almost moving to a PL team and ending up at Sampdoria instead.

If it was this transfer window just gone, you can see why they might have insisted on a clause like that. Mind you, watching him for the reserves so far you can see why no PL club would accept it!

(although, am I the only one who thought his performance last night was the best of the season so far? glimpses of the 'old' Macheda IMO)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh right. I thought you were talking about him almost moving to a PL team and ending up at Sampdoria instead.

If it was this transfer window just gone, you can see why they might have insisted on a clause like that. Mind you, watching him for the reserves so far you can see why no PL club would accept it!

(although, am I the only one who thought his performance last night was the best of the season so far? glimpses of the 'old' Macheda IMO)
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Yeah sorry, I should have been more clear. It was the transfer window just gone and as you say you can see why the club concerned wouldn't agree to the clause.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Oh right. I thought you were talking about him almost moving to a PL team and ending up at Sampdoria instead.

If it was this transfer window just gone, you can see why they might have insisted on a clause like that. Mind you, watching him for the reserves so far you can see why no PL club would accept it!

(although, am I the only one who thought his performance last night was the best of the season so far? glimpses of the 'old' Macheda IMO)
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Yeah there were a few glimpses of the 'old' Kiko, that sharp little turn and cross down the left in the first half for instance. With all due respect to Diouf I really think his presence is hindering Kiko, not playing in your best position for the first team in one thing but not being able to play there for the reserves makes it very difficult for Kiko to rediscover that bit of swagger in his game.
 
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