MUFC are looking at a budget of about £100m, due to FFP (The Athletic)

[lex talionis]

Also a little unfair as transfer fees are only getting bigger every season so trying to compare previously is hard. How much would Rooney cost in todays market for example. I’m convinced Fergie would have signed Kane and Rice and most likely at record fees if needed.

Also coming from a position of weakness doesn’t help. Selling clubs know we are desperate and can dictate.

I can’t bold as I’m on iPhone at the moment but the point re what Fergie would have done is spot on. He bought truly top players and then filled the squad with academy talent or very punts. He would have gone all in for Rice and Kane and not the dross that ETH went in for. Whether adding Rice and Kane instead of the dross that we did go in for would have us in a better position today is a matter of speculation but there’s no doubt in my mind which it would be.

But instead we went for scraps of bacon rather than prime ribs and here we are today, starving for even mediocrity.

 

[didz]

We’re going to take our next budget and toddle off to the transfer market with a list of players we want/positions to cover…

… and come back with a bag of magic beans.

I'm all for that. The way I hear it, magic beans can take unlikely layabouts to dizzying new heights.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

Posts about why we should've signed Rice and Kane in a thread about our limited budged is funny to me. Does anyone think we could have signed either of them for 100m or less?

 

[FerociousCorgis]

better hope we get good saudi prices for varane and casemiro, and that whoever comes in is smart enough to sell players like mctominay or the budget isnt looking great for next season

 

[Sunny Jim]

better hope we get good saudi prices for varane and casemiro, and that whoever comes in is smart enough to sell players like mctominay or the budget isnt looking great for next season

I honestly think the vicious cycle is just about to speed up. We need a masive investmentin the squad but we will not generate enough cash to do so. I reckon in 2-3 years we will be a midtable club.

 

[roseguy64]

More about the type of players we sign than managers to be honest. If you sign younger highly rated prospects, if they don't work out, you can sell for good money, our issue is in the last five or so seasons we have signed Casemiro, Varane, Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Sanchez, Zlatan - all of these guys were coming in on obscene wages, all of them included obscene fees, even the free agents and what have we recouped from them? The only hope is the Saudi league coming in for Varane + Case.

Think of players we're linked with now, at least they are in a better age bracket (Todibo, Onana, Araujo) as long as the Griezmann rumours aren't true!

Only Casemiro of those was an insane transfer fee. Huh? You have a point with the wages but not fees.

Our big fees are almost exclusively on younger players with potential or coming into their prime years soon.

 

[roseguy64]

I can’t bold as I’m on iPhone at the moment but the point re what Fergie would have done is spot on. He bought truly top players and then filled the squad with academy talent or very punts. He would have gone all in for Rice and Kane and not the dross that ETH went in for. Whether adding Rice and Kane instead of the dross that we did go in for would have us in a better position today is a matter of speculation but there’s no doubt in my mind which it would be.

But instead we went for scraps of bacon rather than prime ribs and here we are today, starving for even mediocrity.

It's a different market position we're in now compared to most of Fergie's time.

 

[Don_Johan14]

We will have to see the financial balance at the end of the season and what European competition United will play.

Sales, if they occur, of high-paid players would be a relief for FFP.

Right now, it's too early to make guesses because of so many variables.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Only Casemiro of those was an insane transfer fee. Huh? You have a point with the wages but not fees.

Our big fees are almost exclusively on younger players with potential or coming into their prime years soon.

Not really - Case was massive but Varane fee was £41m, Ronaldo was £12.9m, Cavani was a free but his agent fee was reported £10m alone, we don’t know Ibra to my knowledge but it was Raiola so assume it was not small, Matic was £40m, Sanchez was a swap with Mkhi who cost us £26m. All wanting massive wages, most of them we don’t know the agent fees for. That’s not pocket change.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I’m not saying ETH’s spending is insane. In fact, I haven’t said anybody’s spending is insane. My entire point is that it feels like a hyperbolic term in this context.

I don’t think we’re disagreeing as much as you appear to think we are.

Ok fair - I assumed as you clarified Arteta's spending was not insane it suggested ETH's was. I do think both have spent a lot but then you can't not spend if you want to win things, it's part and parcel of football. Pool seem to have quite comfortably been the 'best' on this front of the clubs that actually win things/are around the top 4, lots of cheap transfers that became very good and all their big purchases seem to have worked out very well off the top of my head.

 

[Daydreamer]

Ok fair - I assumed as you clarified Arteta's spending was not insane it suggested ETH's was. I do think both have spent a lot but then you can't not spend if you want to win things, it's part and parcel of football. Pool seem to have quite comfortably been the 'best' on this front of the clubs that actually win things/are around the top 4, lots of cheap transfers that became very good and all their big purchases seem to have worked out very well off the top of my head.

Yep, they had a string of top buys. They were helped massively by Barcelona losing their damn minds with the Coutinho transfer. But adjusting for football inflation, it was pretty similar to what Spurs got for Bale… and Tottenham well and truly wasted that windfall. Whereas Liverpool bought van Dijk and Alisson.

 

[lex talionis]

It's a different market position we're in now compared to most of Fergie's time.

We're in a different competency position, but over the last four summer transfer windows we had the resources to spend on the right players. The numbers may be inflated a bit, but it's widely quoted here that United under ETH spent 400m on four players -- Antony, Hojlund, Mount and Onana -- and off the top of my head I think the number is closer to 350m, but where the true number is 350m or 400m we clearly had the resources to bring in Rice and Kane.

And if you include the amount we spent on Casemiro that number has to be over 400m, so there's no argument that our position in the summer of 2022 and 2023 was such that we were broke or in some way unable to spend the amounts required to bring in Kane for probably 120m and Rice for probably 110m.

A reasonable objection might be that Kane at 120m would have been crazy, but would it really? We already had Sancho so there was no need to waste 70m on Antony and although Hojlund was 50m less than the 120m that would have brought in Kane, Kane at 120m is a vastly better value than Hojlund at 70m. Rice wasn't available in the summer of 2022 so the Casemiro buy made sense when it happened, but we could have brought in Kane to address what was still a need at CDM and even though Mainoo looks the real deal he could have served as an apprentic under Casemiro and Rice while Casemiro goes off into the sunset.

We didn't need Mount and we didn't need Onana, so that's another 100m into the bin there.

Bottom line is that we had the financial resources to get it right, but instead we got it wrong. As usual, rinse and repeat, starting from Moyes to ETH.

 

[IWat]

We're in a different competency position, but over the last four summer transfer windows we had the resources to spend on the right players. The numbers may be inflated a bit, but it's widely quoted here that United under ETH spent 400m on four players -- Antony, Hojlund, Mount and Onana -- and off the top of my head I think the number is closer to 350m, but where the true number is 350m or 400m we clearly had the resources to bring in Rice and Kane.

Kane wanted trophies if he was to leave Tottenham. Why the fek would he come here?

 

[roseguy64]

Not really - Case was massive but Varane fee was £41m, Ronaldo was £12.9m, Cavani was a free but his agent fee was reported £10m alone, we don’t know Ibra to my knowledge but it was Raiola so assume it was not small, Matic was £40m, Sanchez was a swap with Mkhi who cost us £26m. All wanting massive wages, most of them we don’t know the agent fees for. That’s not pocket change.

Yeah, you've not presented anything there that says I'm wrong.

 

[roseguy64]

We're in a different competency position, but over the last four summer transfer windows we had the resources to spend on the right players. The numbers may be inflated a bit, but it's widely quoted here that United under ETH spent 400m on four players -- Antony, Hojlund, Mount and Onana -- and off the top of my head I think the number is closer to 350m, but where the true number is 350m or 400m we clearly had the resources to bring in Rice and Kane.

And if you include the amount we spent on Casemiro that number has to be over 400m, so there's no argument that our position in the summer of 2022 and 2023 was such that we were broke or in some way unable to spend the amounts required to bring in Kane for probably 120m and Rice for probably 110m.

A reasonable objection might be that Kane at 120m would have been crazy, but would it really? We already had Sancho so there was no need to waste 70m on Antony and although Hojlund was 50m less than the 120m that would have brought in Kane, Kane at 120m is a vastly better value than Hojlund at 70m. Rice wasn't available in the summer of 2022 so the Casemiro buy made sense when it happened, but we could have brought in Kane to address what was still a need at CDM and even though Mainoo looks the real deal he could have served as an apprentic under Casemiro and Rice while Casemiro goes off into the sunset.

We didn't need Mount and we didn't need Onana, so that's another 100m into the bin there.

Bottom line is that we had the financial resources to get it right, but instead we got it wrong. As usual, rinse and repeat, starting from Moyes to ETH.

I don't mean finances. I mean market position i.e being the top choice.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Sell for whatever we can reasonably get:
McTominay (thanks for everything dude)
Varane
Casameiro
Antony
Sancho
Onana (feck it)

I know some are on shorter contracts so we might not get much. Wait for the summer and generate more money to buy then. Selling and spending in Jan is usually shit.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yeah, you've not presented anything there that says I'm wrong.

 

[NLunited]

We need a couple of friendly feeder clubs so we can sign young players without paying over the top. A player that will go to Dortmund for 20 mill will cost us 60 + 15 in bonuses.

 

[Leftback99]

Has anyone ran the numbers from our latest financial reports - is there much left in the budget to try and fix some of this mess in the upcoming windows?

We know our budget was £100m, but we spent in excess of that last summer. It was the same the summer before, where we again overspent - so the purse strings will need to get tightened at some point, so we don't fall foul of FFP?

I think we're in a must sell position unless Ratcliffe puts funds in which allow us increase allowed losses.

The terrible CL run will have only worsened our position.

Good article on it but requires a subscription:
https://swissramble.substack.com/p/do-manchester-united-have-a-problem

 

[711]

We will have to see the financial balance at the end of the season and what European competition United will play.

Sales, if they occur, of high-paid players would be a relief for FFP.

Right now, it's too early to make guesses because of so many variables.

I'm no expert but I think if you sell a player for less than their amortised value then the difference actually counts against you for FFP.

Happy to be corrected by someone that actually knows of course.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I'm no expert but I think if you sell a player for less than their amortised value then the difference actually counts against you for FFP.

Happy to be corrected by someone that actually knows of course.

That is correct, but you also get their wages off the books, which is a benefit that should at least partially offset that writedown.

 

[711]

That is correct, but you also get their wages off the books, which is a benefit that should at least partially offset that writedown.

Right thank you. Although if you have to buy a replacement that would further count against FFP, and also they would need wages as well, although maybe less than the departing players.

Makes buying good young players more attractive I suppose, all we need is Brighton's scouts and we're away.

 

[antohan]

In that case you wait until the end of the season and then also factor in Arteta's tenure and other transfer fees surely?

You don't just say, ETH spent 400m in two windows which is much less than Pep spent last two windows therefore we should win the league? You use context.

Context is Arsenal were miles off us under Ole, caught up and got slightly ahead (5th vs 6th) in a shockingly bad season of ours and that was the (somewhat level) starting point for ETH.

Since then they've done significantly better and I don't need to finish this season to know they will do better than us.

I'd agree Arteta is further down the line coaching his team and shaping things there, problem is I see no discernible path or progress I can extrapolate anything positive for us going forward.

So no, Arteta's spending being similar to ours doesn't make it equally insane. They largely bought quality players and got bang for the buck, we haven't at all.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Context is Arsenal were miles off us under Ole, caught up and got slightly ahead (5th vs 6th) in a shockingly bad season of ours and that was the (somewhat level) starting point for ETH.

Since then they've done significantly better and I don't need to finish this season to know they will do better than us.

I'd agree Arteta is further down the line coaching his team and shaping things there, problem is I see no discernible path or progress I can extrapolate anything positive for us going forward.

So no, Arteta's spending being similar to ours doesn't make it equally insane. They largely bought quality players and got bang for the buck, we haven't at all.

I think the posters point - hence why Arteta was brought up - was many Arsenal fans didn't really see what he was trying to do either. He really didn't have much experience, being an AM was really it, there was nothing to look at and understand what he might try to do but the board completely shut down and sold anyone who was deemed a problem and it just created such a better atmosphere for them. If you look at their squad man for man, it's not that amazing but they work as a unit and work bloody hard + have some very good players in there Saliba, Rice, Odegaard, Saka as a spine.

United have a good squad, hard to believe as it is, but we have been buying players for the future whilst somehow expecting immediate results. This year needs to be big in terms of exits and signing rapid, aggressive, technical younger players who we can mould into some form of a team. Whether or not that is under ETH.

 

[Tyrion]

Posts about why we should've signed Rice and Kane in a thread about our limited budged is funny to me. Does anyone think we could have signed either of them for 100m or less?

Fans typically expect money to come from nowhere. I'd rather they spent time improving recruitment and dumping the wasters before recruiting.

 

[lex talionis]

I don't mean finances. I mean market position i.e being the top choice.

In that case, yes indeed United have become chopped liver -- many thanks to the malicious neglect by the Glazers-- and nowhere near being the prime rib cut we were for decades.

 

[lex talionis]

Kane wanted trophies if he was to leave Tottenham. Why the fek would he come here?

You may recall that United landed third place last season -- 14 points off City without question, but third place nonetheless -- and the brief for Kane to seriously consider an offer from United are the following considerations:

• United could offer Kane huge wages that Bayern could not compete with -- possibly double
• United were on the up, although how far depended on numerous factors including whether players of Kane's stature could be brought in
• Kane could smash the PL scoring record with United, which would immortalize him among the gods of English football
• United offered Kane international exposure that, with all due respect to Bayern, Bayern cannot offer
• The cultural adjustment from London to Manchester is much easier than from London to Munich, although Munich is a very lovely city

Even today, when United are in shambles, the world watches and talks about United at a level that's well above Bayern or Ajax or PSG or Juve. In some respects that's a bad thing as it does impose immense pressure on players who just aren't up to the pressure like Dalot and Onana and our results suffer as a result of players who aren't up to it cracking under the hot lights as we've seen from Dalot and Onana, but there is no doubt whatsoever that Kane would have thrived under the pressure at Old Trafford. As it is now, Kane plays a famous club but outside of Germany there the global interest in Bayern is microscopic compared to United, Liverpool, Arsenal and to a lesser extent, City, Chelsea and Spurs.

All that said, Bayern laughed all the way to the parties last night as they left Old Trafford and there's no doubt that Bayern will lift the Bundesliga trophy again and Harry will celebrate with his teammates. There will be no trophy celebrations for United this season, just so everyone here is clear about that.

 

[Maurice Setters Training]

Fans typically expect money to come from nowhere. I'd rather they spent time improving recruitment and dumping the wasters before recruiting.

Agreed. It's essential to get the scouting right. If we had a scouting team and a Director of Football who presented alternative wingers defensive midfielders, etc with the characteristics that Erik ten Hag was seeking, perhaps we wouldn't have spent so much money on players like Antony, Casemiro, and Mount for those positions."

 

[RedUnited86]

If we'd diverted just 1% of what we've spent on transfers in the last 10 years into ensuring our recruitment department was on point, we'd be streets ahead of where we are now.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

If we'd diverted just 1% of what we've spent on transfers in the last 10 years into ensuring our recruitment department was on point, we'd be streets ahead of where we are now.

Think we have ridiculous numbers of scouts and infrastructure. My view is that someone still has to take those decisions and that is what we are likely missing - coherent decisions at the top.

 

[Hammondo]

I think the posters point - hence why Arteta was brought up - was many Arsenal fans didn't really see what he was trying to do either. He really didn't have much experience, being an AM was really it, there was nothing to look at and understand what he might try to do but the board completely shut down and sold anyone who was deemed a problem and it just created such a better atmosphere for them. If you look at their squad man for man, it's not that amazing but they work as a unit and work bloody hard + have some very good players in there Saliba, Rice, Odegaard, Saka as a spine.

United have a good squad, hard to believe as it is, but we have been buying players for the future whilst somehow expecting immediate results. This year needs to be big in terms of exits and signing rapid, aggressive, technical younger players who we can mould into some form of a team. Whether or not that is under ETH.

Where is this good squad? Which players are you referring to?

 

[Hammondo]

Think we have ridiculous numbers of scouts and infrastructure. My view is that someone still has to take those decisions and that is what we are likely missing - coherent decisions at the top.

Are those scouts any good though?

 

[Hammondo]

You may recall that United landed third place last season -- 14 points off City without question, but third place nonetheless -- and the brief for Kane to seriously consider an offer from United are the following considerations:

• United could offer Kane huge wages that Bayern could not compete with -- possibly double
• United were on the up, although how far depended on numerous factors including whether players of Kane's stature could be brought in
• Kane could smash the PL scoring record with United, which would immortalize him among the gods of English football
• United offered Kane international exposure that, with all due respect to Bayern, Bayern cannot offer
• The cultural adjustment from London to Manchester is much easier than from London to Munich, although Munich is a very lovely city

Even today, when United are in shambles, the world watches and talks about United at a level that's well above Bayern or Ajax or PSG or Juve. In some respects that's a bad thing as it does impose immense pressure on players who just aren't up to the pressure like Dalot and Onana and our results suffer as a result of players who aren't up to it cracking under the hot lights as we've seen from Dalot and Onana, but there is no doubt whatsoever that Kane would have thrived under the pressure at Old Trafford. As it is now, Kane plays a famous club but outside of Germany there the global interest in Bayern is microscopic compared to United, Liverpool, Arsenal and to a lesser extent, City, Chelsea and Spurs.

All that said, Bayern laughed all the way to the parties last night as they left Old Trafford and there's no doubt that Bayern will lift the Bundesliga trophy again and Harry will celebrate with his teammates. There will be no trophy celebrations for United this season, just so everyone here is clear about that.

Are you on drugs?

 

[lex talionis]

Are you on drugs?

The question should be posed to you, or have you not completed your rehab? Do you really believe we should routinely pass up on going after top players and settle for the likes of Antony, Mount and Onana?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Where is this good squad? Which players are you referring to?

Just last year people were rating a number of our players very highly. They aren’t suddenly all crap we just don’t score enough goals.

 

[Hammondo]

Just last year people were rating a number of our players very highly. They aren’t suddenly all crap we just don’t score enough goals.

Massively overrated, typical nonsense hype. Casemiro did have a good season, but has declined physically quickly, though he is 31 approaching 32.

 

[Hammondo]

The question should be posed to you, or have you not completed your rehab? Do you really believe we should routinely pass up on going after top players and settle for the likes of Antony, Mount and Onana?

Obviously I think we should, but we were never getting Kane, we simply do not have the pulling power.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Massively overrated, typical nonsense hype. Casemiro did have a good season, but has declined physically quickly, though he is 31 approaching 32.

Not sure I agree - I think there are still good players in the team: Shaw, Licha, Bruno although I don't think he's right for us, Rashford surely can't just have fallen off a cliff so badly? Then a lot of solid PL players like Maguire, AWB, McT (i..e they will easily get transfers to teams around the lower/mid table) & some younger guys who could have great futures, Mainoo, Amad, Garnahco. Issue is we have too many of these good but not great players in the team and it makes us what we are today - a good but not great team who will probably challenge for somewhere between 9th and 7th unless we address the goals issues.

 

[TheRedHearted]

Ok fair - I assumed as you clarified Arteta's spending was not insane it suggested ETH's was. I do think both have spent a lot but then you can't not spend if you want to win things, it's part and parcel of football. Pool seem to have quite comfortably been the 'best' on this front of the clubs that actually win things/are around the top 4, lots of cheap transfers that became very good and all their big purchases seem to have worked out very well off the top of my head.

The pool of the past couple of years yes, look at nunez, Gapko, Diaz, VVD and Allison to see those were top dollar signings, they’ve seemed to go backwards but winning CL and the league will do that.

 

[antohan]

You may recall that United landed third place last season -- 14 points off City without question, but third place nonetheless -- and the brief for Kane to seriously consider an offer from United are the following considerations:

• United could offer Kane huge wages that Bayern could not compete with -- possibly double
• United were on the up, although how far depended on numerous factors including whether players of Kane's stature could be brought in
• Kane could smash the PL scoring record with United, which would immortalize him among the gods of English football
• United offered Kane international exposure that, with all due respect to Bayern, Bayern cannot offer
• The cultural adjustment from London to Manchester is much easier than from London to Munich, although Munich is a very lovely city

Even today, when United are in shambles, the world watches and talks about United at a level that's well above Bayern or Ajax or PSG or Juve. In some respects that's a bad thing as it does impose immense pressure on players who just aren't up to the pressure like Dalot and Onana and our results suffer as a result of players who aren't up to it cracking under the hot lights as we've seen from Dalot and Onana, but there is no doubt whatsoever that Kane would have thrived under the pressure at Old Trafford. As it is now, Kane plays a famous club but outside of Germany there the global interest in Bayern is microscopic compared to United, Liverpool, Arsenal and to a lesser extent, City, Chelsea and Spurs.

All that said, Bayern laughed all the way to the parties last night as they left Old Trafford and there's no doubt that Bayern will lift the Bundesliga trophy again and Harry will celebrate with his teammates. There will be no trophy celebrations for United this season, just so everyone here is clear about that.

Bizarre post mate.

A says: Kane wanted trophies

You say: A long list of reasons for Kane to join United instead of Bayern... but Bayern will win something and we won't.

Case closed.