For sure. Having an average of 4 completed dribbles is genuinely great in terms of stats. That was mostly before he turned into a goalmachine although he averaged about 3 completed dribbles a game in his 1st season at Madrid while still being a goal machine. I think peak Ronaldo was one of the best in world at it.
Most under- and overrated current players?
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For sure. Having an average of 4 completed dribbles is genuinely great in terms of stats. That was mostly before he turned into a goalmachine although he averaged about 3 completed dribbles a game in his 1st season at Madrid while still being a goal machine. I think peak Ronaldo was one of the best in world at it.
Ronaldo dribbling deteriorated a lot in 2008 and it wasn't that he give away a bit of his dribbling tentatives to roaming more close to the goal, like at Madrid; he still tried it a lot, but it just looked much worse. It seemed like he had a hardtime changing directions when conductioning the ball, nowhere near the same fluidity he had from 2003 to 2007. Maybe he gained too much much volume in his trunk that year(his back looks abnormally large for his size; his obliques are very hypertrophied too) and that affected his mobility? Messi, Maradona and Hazard were fairly bulk, but their trunks were way more compact(even proportionally to their heights).
He did have that injury as well that made him miss the start of the season - could have had an affect long-term.
Aguero was a mediapunta , enganche great part of his carreer and in his youth. It's specially when he arrived to the EPL that due to do the overload of Yaya, SIlva, Kevin and such he had been ask to wait more for the ball than going dropping to fetch it. The thing it's that for my taste he took that idea and run with it to an "extreme", he became a bit lazy a la Romario. He still produced his fair share of slaloms (even great goals) or drop and interact with Kev and the rest, but he never played creating constant havoc with his runs like in Independiente or Aleti. A pity.
Yet I do not consider him, nor Tevez, nor CR, all of the them diff., but great dribblers, as specialists as other in a historical sense.
It's not a question of injuries, it's more about the set up of Madrid, the type of game in Spain, etc...also even Maradona that changed his game after his injuries, or R9, or even Messi who was constantly injured and was way more electric in his first days with his runs and pressing, still did them at a much higher level since day one. It's just that he was very good, great and even extraordinary ins ome plays but there were players that this aspect of the game came more natural to them, in his time and before.
United:
Overrated- Lisandro
Underrated - Dalot
Overall:
Overrated -Haaland
Underrated - Griezmann
Overrated- Lisandro
Underrated - Dalot
Overall:
Overrated -Haaland
Underrated - Griezmann
Injuries did that to him, not the PL or City. ‘Atlético Aguero’ with the fun dribbling had already disappeared, unfortunately.
I acknowledge it, but it's far from being entirely the reason, it's pretty well documented by him that when he arrived he wanted "to do more (tendency of dribbling, of dropping too deep, of playmaking more)" in City and his mates told him to cool it off, help them but at the same time reserve energy and be closer to the rival's net. He still was a very polivalent forward, yet not as highwire as in the past.
Yet like you've said, injuries also had its share, but in my view, maybe also because him becoming more "lazy" in a way probably affected his fitness. Its pretty documented too that he wasn't much of a fan of training like Tevez and Messi maybe too, yet in his case more than the other two, in too many ocassions he looked more than bulky, literally fatty.
As a side note, Aimar, Pastore and in a way Dybala with such frame and tendency to dribble were kind of doom to face lots of injuries due to being constantly hacked, worse with their dribbling style (specially Aimar floating at great pace), but el Kun looked build a la Maradona, Tevez, Messi, yet it always felt that he never treated his body to be actuallt trully fit. In any case maybe it just was bad lack or plain being less "durable" than he looked, it's just a guessing game.
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Tactically he was more restricted for sure, but he could not stay fit for any decent duration and I find plenty of strikers are forced to cater to what their body will tolerate and adapt themselves to the self-imposed restriction, and with modified kun, even if you take his freedom of movement as a condition at City, his twists and turns inside the box itself were far less pronounced than they used to be when he was younger and injury free. One might deem it maturity and better economy of movement, but it also displayed itself in reflexive incidents where the young kun wouldn’t be able to help himself spinning and twisting with his slalom dribbles.
I think the laziness was also part of his modification; that Romario style demands sudden, utterly explosive movements and conserved energy to be the sharpest when it mattered. You can’t roam and be excessive in action if your core game revolves around a sprinter’s style - at most as a youngster he was a ‘200m’ guy, by the time he was in groove at City, he was an elite 10m, 20m, 30m and 50m kind of guy and not interested in anything beyond that. The sacrifices suited his reduced agility.
I think there’s a real luck of the draw with physiques and how much they will withstand; on paper kun was an archetype with his low centre of gravity, thick legs and core strength and ability to ride tackles, but once his body started to fall apart it seems like other parts of his body had to work too hard to compensate thus leading to him being perennially troubled by chained injuries - probably the same price for being so heavy set, even.
Cole Palmer is a little overrated imo. Yes his stats are pretty good for a debut season but I want to see a little more in open play from him as he's very predictable constantly cutting back on his left all the time so feels like he gets shut out a little too easily from tighter games to be declared one of the saviours of English Football just yet.
Underrated- Saliba getting all the praise (and deservedly so) but Gabriel is a very good CB in his own right and has been for a few years for Arsenal but is never really mentioned in team of the season picks.
Underrated- Saliba getting all the praise (and deservedly so) but Gabriel is a very good CB in his own right and has been for a few years for Arsenal but is never really mentioned in team of the season picks.
Yeah I agree with everything, I think it's a mixture of all we had said, that's why I do not deemed it excessively on his injuries but indeed those played a major part and in part those had to do at some point with his approach to the game and in other parts his game were affected by them.
He was kind of a rare fella, he knew he could pull it off without much effort at any level or any rival, he also had really bad luck with injuries with the NT that kind of taint his legacy. His mannerisms and strolling style does not help in the NT, like Messi in many ways, more when instantly both would be compare with a ball of fire Maradona was or to that fierce bull alike Rooney and Tevez style had no matter how talented they were.
I think that even with an extraordinary carreer on his shoudler, he certainly had a level of talent and finesse that kind of makes many people think, "hey fvcker, you could have been even bigger"
Not that I am comparing them like for like, but the way Del Piero was pre-injury to the modified, moments player he was post, reminds me of kun. At Atlético it felt like his only restriction was his own imagination and that most things he could think of in his head, he could instantly produce on a pitch. He became a moments player the more the injuries took hold, and I also think he started playing within himself as opposed to the young version who didn’t have a thought but to execute what his mind and instin demanded. Rooney also had this happen, where he went from as free as a bird on the pitch to a player who had restrictions to his game that zapped him of the more profound and exciting spontaneity he was renowned for.
Ironically, Pep would have disliked the more spontaneous version of kun anyway, because he played by his wit and senses rather than deeper thought for the team construct; at least the older version was forced into restraints that could be used for the benefit of others despite Pep wanting more from him. It’s really crazy that United missed out on him when he would’ve been a real menace with our styles of play back then. He would have been slotted into CL-challenging sides and very likely had a different CL trajectory than he ended up having.
This thread is better when people stick to current players.
underrated: Mac Allister, Neymar, Conor Gallagher, Ollie Watkins.
overrated: Ederson, Gordon
underrated: Mac Allister, Neymar, Conor Gallagher, Ollie Watkins.
overrated: Ederson, Gordon
Barcelona's toddler army.
Underrated - Son
Feel he isnt really talked about as one of the elite level attackers of this era, which he really is. You can look at his xG and goals, and other varying stats but he has now moved quietly into the 5th all time scorer for Spurs, passing Defoe and Cliff Jones. Coming to the end of his time at the top now being on the other side of 30.
Overrated - Grealish
I just don't see him being a level above the likes of Maddison, which given the money City forked out you would expect him to be. Im not sure if it is a mismatch between how Pep wants him to play and what Grealish is best at, or he was never at the level his transfer fee commanded to begin with.
Feel he isnt really talked about as one of the elite level attackers of this era, which he really is. You can look at his xG and goals, and other varying stats but he has now moved quietly into the 5th all time scorer for Spurs, passing Defoe and Cliff Jones. Coming to the end of his time at the top now being on the other side of 30.
Overrated - Grealish
I just don't see him being a level above the likes of Maddison, which given the money City forked out you would expect him to be. Im not sure if it is a mismatch between how Pep wants him to play and what Grealish is best at, or he was never at the level his transfer fee commanded to begin with.
Was just looking up some of his stats as a result of your post. Didn't realise he was already 28! Got that Jesse Lingard syndrome in my mind. Honestly thought he was 23 or 24. Broke through a little older than I'd imagined.
Lot's say the same about his lack of freedom in Guardiola's system, and I think there's something in that although lots of teams are emulating that system in one way or another so he might have ended up the same come what may. He's never produced eye-watering goals or assists numbers has he? I think he looked like he could go on to during his last season at Villa. In a different era or at different team perhaps he becomes a 15 goal, 15 assist a season player.
Got that "Jack the lad" reputation too of course, and without knowing the ins and outs of his application levels it's hard to comment on. Fair to say City haven't got value out of the £100m outlay so far but what's money to them?
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In fairness, I think his reputation precedes him in that case. He is an extremely hard-working player so I don’t think it’s a case of a lack of professionalism even though he is notorious for enjoying a piss-up in his downtime. I just don’t think he’s particularly that good.
Too much is made of stats these days. For example, if you were a 1 in 2 striker twenty years ago, you were seen as outstanding. Now you have many players averaging closer to a goal a game (Haaland, Kane, Salah, Mbappe, Watkins, even Isak) whilst more emphasis is placed on ‘goal contributions’ with the e likes of Foden, Saka and Palmer excelling hugely in this regard.
However, Grealish just does so little. He’s definitely stifled under Pep but it speaks volumes about the lengths City fans went to praise him last season. He’s an attacking player who right now is best known for winning free-kicks and retaining possession - not nearly enough.
(Current players strictly)
Overrated: KDB: outside Pep's system he is half the player. In it he looks generation. Outside he is normal for a top tier AM.
Umpamecano: Quick. Good on the ball. Good marker. Poor concentration.
Underrated: Gabriel (Arsenal) been mint for Arsenal since arrival. Even his own clubs fans had only started to notice this season.
Mbappe: because of PSG and ligue 1. Some people inspite of his two high end world cup performances that include winning the trophy plus a hat trick in a final, simply refuse to believe how good he actually is. Actually claiming "he has declined' in some quarters.
TAA (the midfielder): his wide play making is worshipped. Yet IMO it over shadows the fact he has one of the most incredible passing radars and vision in the game. IMO in center position full time (not this hybrid role) where he could constantly be on the ball, with defensive support either side, not only would he be even more devastating, his defensive weaknesses would literally vanish centrally, because he is better in a hunting pack. May Liverpool NEVER find out
Overrated: KDB: outside Pep's system he is half the player. In it he looks generation. Outside he is normal for a top tier AM.
Umpamecano: Quick. Good on the ball. Good marker. Poor concentration.
Underrated: Gabriel (Arsenal) been mint for Arsenal since arrival. Even his own clubs fans had only started to notice this season.
Mbappe: because of PSG and ligue 1. Some people inspite of his two high end world cup performances that include winning the trophy plus a hat trick in a final, simply refuse to believe how good he actually is. Actually claiming "he has declined' in some quarters.
TAA (the midfielder): his wide play making is worshipped. Yet IMO it over shadows the fact he has one of the most incredible passing radars and vision in the game. IMO in center position full time (not this hybrid role) where he could constantly be on the ball, with defensive support either side, not only would he be even more devastating, his defensive weaknesses would literally vanish centrally, because he is better in a hunting pack. May Liverpool NEVER find out
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The same De Bruyne who has/had the record for most assists in 1 season in the Bundesliga (10 goals, 21 assists in 34 games, Bundesliga player of the year...), was key in Genk's only title in years and has been Belgian's best player for a decade? Weird take.
And it’s not just the numbers with him. That Wolfsburg team of his was a complete one man team. They were nothing without him and with him, they won the cup. That season in particular still remains one of the best seasons any player has ever had in the Bundesliga. He was outstanding and world class throughout.
De Bruyne also joined City 1 season before Pep and scored 16 goals and got them to the semi finals in CL. KDB is just a beast.
He's also commercially incredibly valuable for Spurs and a big reason they have been able to scale as they have. If you look at many of their big name sponsors, much of the value calculation is about market entry into South Korea. I guess we often don't even consider these things with players but the amount of revenue he is bringing into Spurs is colossal.
Arsenal overrated - Havertz, Jesus
Man Utd overrated - Martinez, Fernandes
Liverpool overrated - VdV, Trent
Man City overrated - Doku, Grealish
Arsenal underrated - Gabriel
Man Utd underrated - Dalot
Liverpool underrated - Jota
Man City underrated - Ake
Man Utd overrated - Martinez, Fernandes
Liverpool overrated - VdV, Trent
Man City overrated - Doku, Grealish
Arsenal underrated - Gabriel
Man Utd underrated - Dalot
Liverpool underrated - Jota
Man City underrated - Ake
I never really thought about this when I made the post, but you are right, I was looking more at the footballing aspect.
To put it into perspective. If Son played for United he would be 5th in the all time scorer list, above RVN, Ronaldo, Best, Scholes, he is on 160 so just shy of Giggs' 167. Which you would imagine he will get if he stays another season at Spurs, and I don't see why he wouldn't, been their best attacking player this season racking up 15 goals, 8 assists.
Apart from the usual Brit names like Kane and Rice that people say SAF definitely would've signed if he had been manager the last 10 years, I could definitely see peak Son playing in a SAF team. He loved those combative pacy forwards with two good feet who could play a number of positions
Yeah he's one we missed out on for sure, his transition to a more central player this season also shows how useful he would have been even now his pace is likely dropping off a bit.
Eden Hazard was Belgium's best player for a significant chunk of the last decade. Even raking up a 3 peat 'national team player of the year award"....
But that's a distraction. You seem to think I said KDB isnt world class. When I'm saying rather with City he is widely considered close to balon dor/EPL best player ever levels. Outside of that set up he isn't at that same level.
He absolutely was at that level at Wolfsburg. He was so good in his last season in Germany, it was bordering on being ridiculous.
Pogba
His legions of fanboys (twitter especially) still talk about him like he's a United legend
His legions of fanboys (twitter especially) still talk about him like he's a United legend
I think this is the best list in the thread, agree with each of these.(Current players strictly)
Overrated: KDB: outside Pep's system he is half the player. In it he looks generation. Outside he is normal for a top tier AM.
Umpamecano: Quick. Good on the ball. Good marker. Poor concentration.
Underrated: Gabriel (Arsenal) been mint for Arsenal since arrival. Even his own clubs fans had only started to notice this season.
Mbappe: because of PSG and ligue 1. Some people inspite of his two high end world cup performance that include winning the trophy plus a hat trick in a final, simply refuse to believe how good he actually is.Actually claiming "he has declined' in done quarters.
TAA (the midfielder): his wide play making is worshipped. Yet IMO it over shadows the fact he has one of the most increddible passing radars and vision in the game. IMO in centef position full time (not this hybrid role) where he could constantly be on the ball, with defensive support either side, not only would he be even more devastating, his defensive weaknesses would literally vanish centrally, because he is better in a hunting pack. May Liverpool NEVER find out