Moby/Gio vs Skizzo - Tactical Draft

[Šjor Bepo]

Team Moby/Gio

Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up
The team is based on a blend of fluid free flowing football and technical prowess across the pitch. One of our objectives was to create a setup that allowed a selfless, imaginative playmaker the right kind of environment to shine in, and we have provided the combative platform as well as the flair and freedom in attack that would bring his impact to the fore. We have focussed on using Giresse based on his club incarnation at Bordeaux where he excelled as the designated playmaker of the team and not the more famous national team role that he played for France.

Style - Precise, quick tempo passing and build up with an attention to possession.

Central player

• Giresse formed a devastating partnership at both club and national level with one of the finest box-to-box midfielders of all time in Jean Tigana. Here we pair him with two players cut from a similar cloth in Marco Tardelli and Valery Voronin. They both have the tenacity to dictate terms in midfield but both knew when to break forward to score in big games (Tardelli in 1982 World Cup Final, Voronin in the 1964 Euros Final).
• The diminutive Giresse benefits from the physical protection provided by his central midfield minders. He has the freedom to be the primary playmaker he was for Bordeaux and very often for France even alongside Platini. At Euro '84 he commanded the play despite playing a slightly off-centre role to accommodate the legend through the middle. Here he is fully liberated through the middle with no jostling for no 10 duties.
• Giresse had a superb passing range and excelled at the dropped ball in behind the full-back. Here we have two wide attackers in Rep and Eder who will relish that sort of telling service. In Eder we have a wide attacker who shone in Brazil's 4-2-2-2, pulling wide left in the same way that Rocheteau/Six did to help create front third space for the carre magique. What that gives us are the types of runs that Giresse is well versed in exploiting with the national team.
• We can see a lot of synergy in the Giresse/Aguero partnership. The Frenchman's nimble footwork, sharp dribbling and ability to slip a pass in behind the defensive line is exactly the type of service that Aguero will thrive on. We know that David Silva and Aguero combine very well and we can see that ramped up a notch or two with the even slippier Giresse calling the shots.

Defense

Defensive Line - Normal
Marking - Zonal
Off the ball - Collective Defensive unit, the back six forming a watertight zone of defense.
On the ball - Playing the ball out through the middle, DMs carrying it forward from the sweeper

Midfield
- Traditional midfield three comprising of a All Round Defensive Midfielder in Valery Voronin, A Complete Box to Box Midfielder in Marco Tardelli and a Playmaker in Alain Giresse.
- All three of them excel on the ball as well as off it, making the trio function with equal effectiveness on either side of the pitch.
-Voronin will anchor the unit at the base, with Tardelli making his trademark lung bursting runs to support the attack.

Attack
- The assigned player, Giresse will be at the helm of all the attacks, flowing through him and picking out the wide players or the front man with precise, constant service.
- Rep will function as a winger who is at ease cutting inside or occupying the flank whereas Eder will be floating around the left channel and the 18 yard box, using his devastating shot with full effect.
- Aguero will lead the line, where his deadly instinct and variety of shots will prove to be a tough ask given the surrounding cast.

Player Roles

Francesco Toldo - Keeper - Standard
Danny McGrain - Right Back - Balanced
Karl Heinz Forster - Center Back - Stopper
Laurent Blanc - Center Back - Sweeper
Jose Antonio Camacho - Left Back - Balanced/Marker
Valery Voronin - Central Midfielder - Defensive Midfielder
Marco Tardelli - Central Midfielder - Box to Box Midfielder
ALAIN GIRESSE - Attacking Midfielder - Playmaker
Johnny Rep - Right Winger - Goalscoring Wing Presence
Eder - Left Winger - Goalscoring Wing Forward
Sergio Aguero - Center Forward - Complete Forward

Team Skizzo

Style - direct

Central Player - Gianni Rivera

"Yes, he doesn't run a lot, but if I want good football, creativity, the art of turning around a situation from the first to the ninetieth minute, only Rivera can give me all of this with his flashes. I wouldn't want to exaggerate, because in the end it's only football, but Rivera in all of this is a genius."

Rivera was highly regarded for his outstanding ball control, dribbling skills, and excellent technique, as well as his quick feet, acceleration over short distances, agility, and balance on the ball, which allowed him to change direction quickly, and dribble past players with ease. Despite his notable skill, technical ability, and elegance on the ball, Rivera would often avoid undertaking individual dribbling runs or challenging defenders gratuitously in one on one situations, in particular in his later career, unless he deemed them necessary; he preferred instead to create space and chances for his team through his precise passing game and offensive movement. Indeed, above all, Rivera was known for his excellent vision, ability to interpret the game, and his sublime range of passing, which allowed him to control his team's play in midfield with short exchanges, spread long passes across the pitch, or even play the ball first time, and also made him an excellent assist provider from any position on the field, with both feet; in 2011, former playmaker and UEFA president Michel Platini described Rivera as one of the greatest passers in the history of the sport.

Despite being primarily a creative midfielder, and a team player, who preferred assisting teammates over scoring goals himself, Rivera was also known for his ability to make attacking runs and for his keen eye for goal; an accurate finisher from both inside and outside the area, he is the highest-scoring midfielder in Serie A history, and the third highest-scoring midfielder in the history of the Italian national team. He was also an accurate set piece and penalty-kick taker. Rivera is widely considered to be one of the greatest Italian footballers and one of the most talented advanced playmakers of all time, as well as one of the best players of his generation.

The 1969 Balon D'or was awarded to Rivera after his outstanding performances in the European Cup, in which he led Milan to the final, and a dominant win over Cruyff's Ajax team. His performance in that final is considered one of his greatest, most dominant performances, playing in the number 10 role, and assisting in 2 of his team's goals in that final.

In that final, Milan were set up in the same manner we have here, with a sweeper stopper combination (Tresor-Adams to Malatrasi-Rosato), a midfield two behind Rivera who are able to allow him to concentrate on the offensive side of the game by doing the "dirty work" for him, and also offer outlets for his passing (Albelda-Jansen to Lodetti-Trapattoni), flanked by two wingers who would offer a balance of stretch the play with genuine wing threat, and also cutting inside to offer a direct goalscoring threat (Gadocha-Lato to Hamrin-Pratti) and a striker who could lead the line with his physical play, but also his capability to take part in the build up play with his passing (Van Persie to Sormani).

Defence - Stopper with a covering defender. With the ball, Tresor will look to play it out from the back, or use Tassotti/Bossis to bring it forward when available.

Midfield - Jansen and Albelda will look to win the ball back quickly, doing their usual defensive job in front of the defense. When they have the ball, they will look to quickly play it into Rivera who will dictate the play and use the space available created by the movement around him. Albelda will tend to hold his position a little more, Jansen will look to drift when in possession to open space and offer another outlet for Rivera.

Attack - Gadocha will look to offer more of a genuine wide threat, stretching play, and looking to deliver balls into the box. Late offers the more direct threat, cutting in and making runs in behind for Rivera to pick out. Van Persie will look to get involved in the build up, linking up with Rivera, but offering another runner in behind, playing off the shoulder of the defender at times and using his movement to find space for the vision of Rivera to pick out.

Rivera is obviously the player intended to build around, and we've set him up here in a very similar style which led to him winning the Balon D'or. Everyone around him is tasked with freeing him up, and offering him the best possibly platform to shine and thrive, pulling the strings as he did at his very best.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

• Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  
• Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.

• Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.

good luck @Moby @Gio @Skizzo

 

[Moby]

ALAIN GIRESSE

Diminutive he may have been, but as a player Alain Giresse towered at the heart of the France side in the 1970s and 1980s, writing his name into legend as one of his country's finest ever midfielders. Standing just 1.63m tall next to his great accomplice Michel Platini, he was one of the main architects of France's first ever international title at UEFA EURO 1984 and their historic run to the semi-finals at the 1982 FIFA World Cup Spain™.

Forever remembered for his place in the Carré magique (Magic square) together with fellow French titans Platini, Luis Fernandez and Jean Tigana, Giresse also carved out a successful career in the club game, most notably picking up a pair of league titles during a long and distinguished spell with Bordeaux.

With Aime Jacquet on the bench and Giresse pulling the strings in a side boasting the skills of Marius Tresor, Bernard Lacombe and Jean Tigana, Bordeaux would soon go on to stand out as the predominant force in France's top division. And the better the club fared, the more their players began to assert their reputations, with Giresse emerging from a spell in the shadows to suddenly become a key figure in the France line-up.

At Bordeaux he resumed his role as the architect, winning another league title with the club and reaching the European Cup semi finals in the 1984-85 season, only to lose to the Michel Platini-led Juventus who went on to be the eventual champions, by a solitary goal. With a career spanning sixteen years at the club, Giresse is an undisputed all time legend for the French outfit, amassing close to 200 goals in almost 600 appearances, with a very respectable 1 in 3 record over the entire duration while captaining the side during their league winning campaigns.

With a small frame and a low centre of gravity, he was blessed with incredible agility and acceleration in tandem with the ability to control the ball in the tightest of spaces and supply the frontline with the final pass. Similarly, he was a strong presence in attack when surrounded with a multifaceted offensive unit who weren't shy of returning the favour and constantly combining with the Frenchman in fluid, free flowing buildups and moving the ball around quickly with intent.

In short, a figure of creative genius that showcased the ability to not only elevate the entire team around him but provide the match winning ability that led to him being regarded as one of the most gifted and impactful players of his generation, both for club and country.

He was well capable of dominating the opposition on the biggest of stages, as he is seen here taking the game by the scruff of it's neck.


Or in a Cup Final against a strong opposition?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Both teams look really good on first impressions. It'll be interesting to read the debate here.

 

[Skizzo]

Spoiler

He is known as the Golden Boy of Italian football and is a legend of calcio in every sense of the world. Quite simply, Gianni Rivera is one of the world’s greatest football players.

In his long and storied career in the game he won three Serie A titles, four Coppa Italias, five continental trophies, the European Championship and the European Player of the Year award and won 60 caps for his country. It always seemed that the youngster was destined for great success in the game as anyone who watched him in the streets as a young boy in his hometown of Alessandria will attest to.

His hometown club then snapped him up as a 13 year-old after he put on a display of fine passing and tricks at a trial for the team in which a big crowd gathered to watch this fascinating young boy.

Just two years later he made his debut in Serie A against Inter and did not look out of place in the slightest. In fact, in that first season at such a young age in one of Europe’s best leagues, Rivera was a standout talent and hit six goals in almost 30 appearances which immediately brought about interest from the bigger clubs.

Alessandria had resigned themselves to losing their star player after just one year and so it was that when AC Milan needed to replace Juan Schiaffino they decided to put their faith in the quick, classy young player and he joined the Rossoneri that summer for a record 90 million lire.

It took just two seasons for Milan to secure the Scudetto with their new man who had now moved into the middle of the park behind the strikers and was responsible for providing the passes for Jose Altafini up front. At the age of just 17 he had become one of the most important players in the team and was becoming one of the most promising footballers in the game so it was no surprise then that he received his first Italian call-up a year later to the World Cup squad and actually made his debut in the opening game of the competition against West Germany.

Many would have felt the pressure of such an occasion but Rivera seemed unfazed by it and was in fine form. However, he didn’t play any more games at the tournament and suffered from controversy within sections of the media, some of whom (led by famed journalist Gianni Brera) claimed he was a luxury player who was only good in attack and wouldn’t defend or tackle and was a player which a team could do without although others argued that he was a player who had to play because of his excellent range of passing, skill on the ball and ability to change the game in an instant.

Thankfully for Milan though nobody could keep Rivera out of the side for season 1962/63 as they set about trying to retain the league title and began their assault on Europe. Rivera was in sensational form during this season and made 40 appearances overall for club and country and managed to hit double figures for Milan as well. Despite falling short in the race for the Scudetto, Milan managed to reach the European Cup Final against Benfica.

The game, held at Wembley, cemented the youngster’s place as a star player as he tortured the Portuguese defence with his range of skills, quick feet and sublime passing. It was two of his passes that helped the Diavolo to victory as Altafini found himself on the end of two of his passes to win Milan the European Cup. So impressed were the continent by Rivera and his outstanding performances that, at just 19, he finished runner-up in the race for the Ballon d’Or losing out to Russian goalkeeper Lev Yashin.

After this excellent run of success at the outset of his Milan career, trophies became harder to come by for Milan especially after the departure of manager Nereo Rocco for Torino and the side struggled in the wake of his departure. The Scudetto was thrown away in 1965 in dramatic fashion to their city rivals as the Grande Inter side’s era of dominance began to take shape and the Rossoneri found the going to be tough against the old enemy.

Rivera still turned in typically classy performances with his play taking on a very elegant style but for all his terrific displays, his team could not give the fans at San Siro the trophies that he and his teammates perhaps should have been able to win. It does say a great deal about just how strong the league was at that time though. Unfortunately, the national side could not carry over their club side’s impressive form into the 1966 World Cup and, despite the gifted playmaker having a decent tournament by all accounts, Italy crashed out to North Korea in a game nobody needs reminding of.

The Golden Boy did help bring about another golden period for his side though when, in 1967, Nereo Rocco returned to the Giuseppe Meazza to manage his former club, and immediately set about rebuilding the team with Rivera being pinpointed as the main man and the focal point of the attack. His impact was immediate as season 1967/68 saw the Rossoneri secure a magnificent double by wrestling the title back from Inter and even winning the European Cup Winners’ Cup with a 2-0 win over Hamburg in the Final. Milan certainly were back at the top of the Italian game and it was the midfield man who was one of the main reasons for the success.

Enjoying the freedom of the midfield and the responsibility that Rocco had placed upon his shoulders, Rivera flourished and an equally impressive season the following campaign resulted in him gaining that wonderful individual honour of the European Player of the Year award that he had missed out on in 1963. The Rossoneri also won another European Cup in Madrid that year by destroying a young Ajax side at the Bernabeu in a game in which Rivera put in a performance which many believe was one of his best on a football field.

There was absolutely no questioning that he deserved it this time around especially after also magnificently winning the European Championship in 1968 for his country but picked up an injury in the semi final against the Soviet Union which also ruled him out of the Final against Yugoslavia. Despite his disappointment on missing out on the game itself, he was deserving of his gold medal for all of the hard work he had put in with the national side.

Going into the World Cup in Mexico in 1970, Rivera was the greatest hope that the Azzurri had of winning a third world title but he argued constantly with the coaches and his mentor Rocco had to be flown out to Mexico to dissuade the midfielder from leaving the squad. This would have been a disaster if he had and there was no way the side would have reached the Final without him not least because of his glorious winning goal in the thrilling semi final win over West Germany, a game in which he was sensational.

However, manager Ferrucio Valcareggi, who until the final had been playing his star playmakers Rivera and Mazzola for one half of the game each due to the searing heat in Mexico, left Rivera out for the biggest game in decades for Italy. His decision backfired in horrible fashion as his team crumbled to a 4-1 defeat and Rivera was only brought on for the final six minutes of the game.

Back in Italy after the tournament there was uproar in Rome upon the team’s arrival home where they were met by jeers and cries and banners of “Viva Rivera” as the public let the management know exactly where they thought the Final had been lost. Sadly for the Azzurri fans a similar incident would occur at the World Cup four years later when the Golden Boy was left out of a must-win game against Poland and sure enough, Italy were sent home early.

Gianni had always suffered this strained relationship with those involved in the national setup and for such an iconic national player, captaining his country on a mere four occasions says it all about how difficult a relationship he had to endure with those in power within the Azzurri squad.

Rivera refused to feel sorry for himself in the wake of the disappointment of the World Cup and instead focused on giving his best for Milan and despite being fantastic for the club during this time, the club finished runners-up in the race for the Scudetto on three successive occasions.

This failure for a club as big as Milan was a major disappointment to Rocco who shouldered the blame for being unable to win back the title and left the club for the second time in 1973. Not long after the departure of Rocco, the management attempted to persuade Rivera to leave the club but the captain refused and wanted to stay at the club where he was adored by the Rossoneri fans.


Despite his advancing years Rivera was still an integral part of the team and played in another Cup Winner’s Cup win and one defeat and also won a series of Coppa Italia trophies although he sat out some of the games through suspension after claiming Italian referees were biased in favour of Inter and Juventus. This did single Rivera out for more criticism from those who claimed he was a luxury player by now accusing him of paranoia but Rivera stood by what he believed was “psychological bias” by the referees.

Rivera managed to play on until the 1978/79 season which he announced would be his last before retirement. To prove his eternal class, at 36 years old he still managed to play in half of the games that season and ensured that his career would end in the same way that it started – on a high as his side won the Scudetto for the 10th time in their history and thus were crowned with the famous gold star on those famous red and black stripes.

One of Italy’s greatest players, the Golden Boy, had called time then on a magnificent career and although many expected him to move into management after retiring, he decided to join the backroom staff at Milan although it was a turbulent time in the history of the club as they were found guilty of match fixing and demoted to Serie B. In 1986, with the arrival of Silvio Berlusconi, Rivera was forced out of the club after standing up to the media mogul and paid for it with his job. He then moved into politics and has remained keen on it, giving him a focus in life outside of football but to calcio fans, he will always be the Golden Boy.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Shame these two teams meet in the first round as they are two well constructed sides around their key players. I really like the use of Eder here who would love the space created in this setup.

 

[harms]

They both have the tenacity to dictate terms in midfield but both knew when to break forward to score in big games (Tardelli in 1982 World Cup Final, Voronin in the 1964 Euros Final).

What?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not really sure on Giresse role here. I'd have preferred to play him with another #10. I don't get the comments on this set up to his partnership with Tigana which looks totally different.

 

[Moby]

I'd have preferred to play him with another #10

Because of his role for the France NT?

He was the primary designated playmaker for Bordeaux during his best years when he was voted the French footballer of the year multiple times as well as the second place in Ballon D'or, and he didn't play with another #10 there, which also goes against the spirit of the draft in making a team around the said player.

We aren't focussing on his national setup role where he was a deputy to Platini and not the one who was clearly the heart of the side in terms of creative duties and carrying the ball with his pace, acceleration and agility, as he was for his club career.

 

[harms]

Not really sure on Giresse role here. I'd have preferred to play him with another #10. I don't get the comments on this set up to his partnership with Tigana which looks totally different.

The thing is, while in this draft there were different players chosen and some already performed in a star role on the biggest stage (Cantona, Raul, Del Piero etc.), some were overshadowed by others in real life despite having the skillset and body of work to shine on their own, like Giresse here, or, to an extent, Seeler (that's it, actually, looking over the list - and even Seeler is a stretch here. So Giresse is a pretty unique case), and this is a chance to see how they would fare if the team was built around them.

So it definitely makes sense to play Giresse as a star man instead of Platini's sidekick

 

[Gio]

What?

Semi-final he scored in was it?

 

[harms]

Semi-final he scored in was it?

Yes, but it was from a corner, so hardly "breaking forward". Not to say that he wasn't capable of it, he definitely was, but to say that he was known for it is a bit of a stretch.
He scored from an open play in 1/4 though.

The last one

 

[Moby]

One of the highlights of his career, scoring a fantastic lob against Marseille in the Coupe De France final in 1986, a moment of genius in a massive situation.

Spoiler: Giresse goal vs Marseille

 

[Moby]

Ballon D'or 1982

 

[Joga Bonito]

Would love more info on Giresse's role for Bordeaux, esp his goalscoring impact @Moby @Gio . A lovely little player whom I have a lot of time for but have always found it extremely intriguing how he seemed to have been more of a star for Bordeaux and played the supporting role to perfection for France and was a great partner in crime for Platini. The difference in goalscoring records for both club and country never fails to amaze me, he has several seasons where he hits double figures and a near one-in-two record for Bordeaux but has just 6 goals in 47 appearances for France for instance.

 

[Skizzo]

Good luck @Gio @Moby

Great set up you have for your star man. Look forward to reading more about him and your team, as people said above, he's often looked at as the sidekick, so it'll be interesting to see how you've gone about getting the best out of him

I'm at a BBQ with family for Memorial Day, so I'll be back around later on to catch up and fill in.

 

[Moby]

A very important feature of this team, is the ability on the ball of the entire back six behind Giresse. Not only are they providing an incredible defensively sound platform to shine and stamp his authority on the match, but also compliment and support him with their ability to swiftly move the ball out of defense and midfield without any roadblocks.

- Blanc is the natural ball playing centre back in the team, who's skill and technique should not be underrated. While not a traditional flamboyant sweeper in the mould of a Scirea or a Beckenbauer, he was a brilliant outlet from defense for both club and country and provided immense calmness in building from the back, which will further cement the contribution of the playmaker as there would never be any long ball football.
- His partner Forster, while known primarily for his ability as a stopper and a no nonsense defender, was never a dud when it came to pass the ball with composure and accuracy, he'll be an astute understudy for Blanc in that department.
- Both Camacho and McGrain were known for their offensive contributions down the flanks. Camacho had a metronomic presence for Madrid, a bit Dennis Irwin-esque in that regard where he contributed in kickstarting the attacks or being available as a passing option on the flank with his consistent error free passing and vision, and one of the fullbacks who in addition to their defensive stardom can boast of technical prowess on par with the midfielders they played with.
- Voronin is as complete and all round a midfielder as they come, who would look hardly out of place in a possession based setup as a Holding Midfielder with his incredible tight control, decision making, intelligence and physical attributed that allowed him to glide past opposition with ease.

All in all, the entire setup around the playmaker provides him numerous approaches on dominating a match up. If the need of the hour is retaining possession and moving the ball around consistently, he has the required support cast to execute that. The players are well versed with any change in tempo that might be required and will never hesitate in getting the ball around quickly and moving it forward, be it through individual ability hence opening up spaces for Giresse (whose goalscoring shouldn't be ignored, and was a huge part of his game) or through an unpredictable array of passes. We understand that Giresse played in a very good technical team at the club level, and the country as well, and here he's found himself back in a similar setting.

 

[antohan]

Not really sure on Giresse role here. I'd have preferred to play him with another #10. I don't get the comments on this set up to his partnership with Tigana which looks totally different.

The entire point of the challenge is building a side around Giresse rather than trying to find someone else to play Platini so he can play second-fiddle again.

 

[Moby]

Would love more info on Giresse's role for Bordeaux, esp his goalscoring impact @Moby @Gio . A lovely little player whom I have a lot of time for but have always found it extremely intriguing how he seemed to have been more of a star for Bordeaux and played the supporting role to perfection for France and was a great partner in crime for Platini. The difference in goalscoring records for both club and country never fails to amaze me, he has several seasons where he hits double figures and a near one-in-two record for Bordeaux but has just 6 goals in 47 appearances for France for instance.

In terms of creative duties, even next to someone like Michel Platini, he was not shy of being the orchestrator and taking the reigns as and when required. That France team played quite deep a lot of times, with all of Fernandez, Tigana and Platini back in defensive duties leaving Giresse as the one who would be the man in transition between the midfield and forward. In terms of goalscoring, it is difficult to rival someone as dominant as Platini on that front, and the instructions usually seemed to be getting the best out of his goal threat with the rest of the team including the forward accommodating that.

For Bordeaux, he played in a sort of a diamond with him at the tip of it, often much closer to the 18 yard box. The team did not play as deep as France, and was usually not an underdog in terms of technical ability or overall quality in the league or domestic games, which led to them dominating teams through possession and getting more players forward, often crowding the opposition area, and there Giresse was the undisputed leader (he was the captain as well) and the one who would be given the responsibility to create goal scoring chances, be it through opening the game for other or always being available in an open space if the ball is to come back. Not to mention he also possessed great dribbling and acceleration that allowed him to easily get away from players and create space. He had quite a powerful strike as well, and often took shots from a 20 yard distance.

Basically a different system, more dominance versus the opposition, the heat map being a lot further forward and not having anyone called Michel Platini were mainly the reasons that allowed him a better goal record. In our case, especially since there is Aguero there, we expect him to function a tad similar to David Silva, with similar ball control, dribbling, creativity and vision. With fullbacks willing to run up and down on both sides and the midfielders not short of supporting him on the ball, he has a similar environment around him where he would always be spoilt for choice and can open up the opposition in a variety of ways. Both Aguero and Rep are perfectly used to with playing with a dominant playmaker and their contributions in terms of passing, movement and skill would allow him to create good space for himself as well as others. Where he differs of course is that he's a lot more willing of getting a shot away when a chance presents itself, but likely makes the decision that is best for the team.

With the entire buildup and movement happening on this axis, Eder can act as a wild card, who again himself was a part of an excellent fluid unit in Brazil, but also had an individual instinct of going for the spectacular which with the spaces opened up by others could come quite handy.

 

[Gio]

Would love more info on Giresse's role for Bordeaux, esp his goalscoring impact @Moby @Gio . A lovely little player whom I have a lot of time for but have always found it extremely intriguing how he seemed to have been more of a star for Bordeaux and played the supporting role to perfection for France and was a great partner in crime for Platini. The difference in goalscoring records for both club and country never fails to amaze me, he has several seasons where he hits double figures and a near one-in-two record for Bordeaux but has just 6 goals in 47 appearances for France for instance.

To further expand on Moby's post above, he played that facilitating role to perfection for France, recognising the once-in-a-lifetime goalscoring contribution that Platini brought to the table. IMO he was a lot more involved in the build-up for France in 1984 than Platini who, while still getting involved, sometimes drifted in and out of a couple of games before springing to life with a sudden burst and goal. And arguably he was more dominant through the course of the game (but obviously Platini rightly gets all the plaudits):

Euro '84 stats

But what he did at Bordeaux showed what he was capable of as the main man. He was the talisman for that club in the best period of their history. They've won 6 Ligue Un titles - 3 of them in the mid-80s, won 4 French Cups - 2 of them in the mid-80s, and twice went very close in the European Cup and Cup Winners Cup. Juventus ended up hanging on in the 1985 semi-final, after Bordeaux had lost the first leg 3-0 and went 2-0 up in the home tie but couldn't quite force an equaliser. As well as being the main man for Bordeaux, he had the freedom to attack directly through the central channel in a similar way to what Platini did for the national team. And that was a big reason why he was such an impressive goalscorer for his club.

 

[antohan]

Nice.

I hope you guys are putting all this together in one piece for a future Giresse entry (yes, I know, I'm yet to start that but snowed under and have way too many profiles to kick things off with).

 

[Moby]

I hope you guys are putting all this together in one piece for a future Giresse entry

Sure.

 

[harms]

Is there any footage of him at Bordeaux? He was really fascinating in 1984 and I agree with the notion that he had more playmaking duties than Platini, who went on his goalscoring spree, and I'd like too see him in a different role.

 

[Gio]

Here's a wee snifter of him through the middle:

 

[antohan]

@Skizzo, sorry I didn't comment earlier but I had to check out a couple of players I wasn't sure about.

That's a great effort replicating AC 1969. Each and every player is an exact replica of the original one and their role in that side.

Great choice as well. While the 63 side would be harder to pull off, there's no question the one in 69 was 1. more clearly built around Rivera, 2. simply better overall.

It's a funny one in that you take Rivera away from 1963 and it's probably rubbish -so you could argue more dependent- but the 1969 one while being less one-dimensional in its dependency was the result of years of evolving towards a side that fully exploited all his ability.

Edit: D'oh! Completely overlooked that's his Ballon d'Or season.

 

[Skizzo]

@Skizzo, sorry I didn't comment earlier but I had to check out a couple of players I wasn't sure about.

That's a great effort replicating AC 1969. Each and every player is an exact replica of the original one and their role in that side.

Great choice as well. While the 63 side would be harder to pull off, there's no question the one in 69 was 1. more clearly built around Rivera, 2. simply better overall.

It's a funny one in that you take Rivera away from 1963 and it's probably rubbish -so you could argue more dependent- but the 1969 one while being less one-dimensional in its dependency was the result of years of evolving towards a side that fully exploited all his ability.

Originally I went back and forth deciding which "incarnation" of Rivera to go with, or rather, which of "his" teams to try and replicate. I didn't want to go full fantasy, as all drafts tend to end up leaning that way anyway.

I felt the pinnacle of Rivera's career should ultimately be the way to go, with his performances in that year leading to his award. The team itself was almost brutally simple in its set up, basically building the team to get the best out of him as it was. The fact that the majority of the players around Rivera here also thrived with someone of his ability or style in their own teams lends itself to the opinion that it would all work somewhat seamlessly.

Cheers for the comments.

 

[antohan]

Originally I went back and forth deciding which "incarnation" of Rivera to go with, or rather, which of "his" teams to try and replicate. I didn't want to go full fantasy, as all drafts tend to end up leaning that way anyway.

I felt the pinnacle of Rivera's career should ultimately be the way to go, with his performances in that year leading to his award. The team itself was almost brutally simple in its set up, basically building the team to get the best out of him as it was. The fact that the majority of the players around Rivera here also thrived with someone of his ability or style in their own teams lends itself to the opinion that it would all work somewhat seamlessly.

Cheers for the comments.

That's a good point actually which I hadn't thought about: Deyna for Gadocha and Lato, Cruyff for Jansen, Aimar for Albelda, Platini for Bossis/Tresor... Who are you think of re: RvP? Sneijder?

That's a really interesting perspective too. Brilliant.

 

[Skizzo]

That's a good point actually which I hadn't thought about: Deyna for Gadocha and Lato, Cruyff for Jansen, Aimar for Albelda, Platini for Bossis/Tresor... Who are you think of re: RvP? Sneijder?

That's a really interesting perspective too. Brilliant.

RVP was the hardest one to think of, and I picked him early mostly because I think his traits and ability translate best to getting the best out of Rivera.

He was technically a great player, and often assisted his strike partners or other attacking players, which I think would help highlight Rivera's ability to get on the scoresheet too.

 

[antohan]

RVP was the hardest one to think of, and I picked him early mostly because I think his traits and ability translate best to getting the best out of Rivera.

He was technically a great player, and often assisted his strike partners or other attacking players, which I think would help highlight Rivera's ability to get on the scoresheet too.

While I agree with the logic, that's precisely the one I wanted to double check as in my head all I could remember was the much different 1963 Rivera-Altafini.

Despite lacking pace, he was a physically strong, creative and intelligent player with excellent technical ability; throughout his career, he was known for his tactical versatility, power and determination, as well as his capability to take part in and initiate attacking plays due to his passing ability

Which is very much what you'd expect from RvP (and not an Altafini clone). Maybe not as powerful, although RvP was no pushover.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

We aren't focussing on his national setup role where he was a deputy to Platini and not the one who was clearly the heart of the side in terms of creative duties and carrying the ball with his pace, acceleration and agility, as he was for his club career.

So it definitely makes sense to play Giresse as a star man instead of Platini's sidekick

The entire point of the challenge is building a side around Giresse rather than trying to find someone else to play Platini so he can play second-fiddle again.

It was my understanding that the France role was his peak, (not a 2nd fiddle to Platini) but as a midfield playmaker who plays behind a #10 (and not a #10 himself). His peak seems to be 1982 when he won shit loads incl Balon d'Or 2nd place and I can't see Bordeaux achieving anything significant that year. Correct me, if I'm wrong but I presumed the awards must have been driven by his performances in WC'82. Did France play the diamond then too?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Edit: To clarify @Moby it was not a criticism, but more of a query. I think Giresse must be the hardest sell of the allocated players.

 

[antohan]

It was my understanding that the France role was his peak, (not a 2nd fiddle to Platini) but as a midfield playmaker who plays behind a #10 (and not a #10 himself). His peak seems to be 1982 when he won shit loads incl Balon d'Or 2nd place and I can't see Bordeaux achieving anything significant that year. Correct me, if I'm wrong but I presumed the awards must have been driven by his performances in WC'82. Did France play the diamond then too?

Indeed, and yes they played a 45 degree rotated right-angled diamond (or magic square).

He didn't play behind a #10 unless you think Socrates played behind Zico (style differences aside, Platini was the more incisive AM ala Zico and Giresse more into linking midfield and attack like Socrates, you could argue the latter managed tempo and the former the "repentización"/sudden change of tempo).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Indeed, and yes they played a 45 degree rotated right-angled diamond (or magic square).

He didn't play behind a #10 unless you think Socrates played behind Zico (style differences aside, Platini was the more incisive AM ala Zico and Giresse more into linking midfield and attack like Socrates, you could argue the latter managed tempo and the former the "repentización"/sudden change of tempo).

Yup. Thought so. I think his best position is one partnered with another playmaker, maybe not one as dominant as Platini but still a more attacking one with Giresse playing a deeper link/orchestrator role. Not really sure if this brings the peak out of him.

 

[antohan]

Yup. Thought so. I think his best position is one partnered with another playmaker, maybe not one as dominant as Platini but still a more attacking one with Giresse playing a deeper link/orchestrator role. Not really sure if this brings the peak out of him.

It may well be the other way around. You could make a good case for Platini needing Giresse more than Giresse needed Platini.

 

[green_smiley]

It is simple. When I see Rivera, I click "Like"
Also, it is clear that the star player in Skizzo's team is Rivera and in his best position, complimented well by his teammates, so that's that too

 

[Moby]

I think his best position is one partnered with another playmaker

Why?

 

[Moby]

It is simple. When I see Rivera, I click "Like"
Also, it is clear that the star player in Skizzo's team is Rivera and in his best position, complimented well by his teammates, so that's that too

Fair enough. No doubt on Rivera's quality and the standing in the game, however this is not a matchup between the two, as both players were assigned to the managers and it's about who did a better job on surrounding them with the rest of the team.

 

[Skizzo]

Heading to bed, turned into a bit of a crazy day.

Hopefully be back around before the end of this with a few more thoughts.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Why?

I feel that where he played in 1982 award winning season.

 

[Gio]

Yup. Thought so. I think his best position is one partnered with another playmaker, maybe not one as dominant as Platini but still a more attacking one with Giresse playing a deeper link/orchestrator role. Not really sure if this brings the peak out of him.

What his partnership with Platini showed was that he could adapt his game to sit alongside another great no10. Not many playmakers could necessarily do that and the French national team bosses were reluctant to pair them together in the late 1970s. But it would be silly to replicate the set-up here, especially given the absence of GOAT no10s to do the same. There would be no value in him playing second fiddle to the best 10s in this pool when he is already in the same class bracket if not better.

Making him the central figure is precisely what Bordeaux did which is why they had such unprecedented success with him. There was no other playmakers in that side, just hard-working central midfielders and play-stretching attackers. As @Joga Bonito alluded to earlier, it would not make sense to replicate a set-up that saw Giresse score 5 goals in 47 international games, versus a set-up where he nailed 15-20 goals a season for most of the late 1970s through to the mid-1980s.