Mitten: Manchester United MUST put money back into Old Trafford

Maroo said:
Interesting article from Mitten calling for refurbishment of our stadium:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport/football/andy-mitten-manchester-united-must-13657766.amp
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The quality of the dug-out area (as so often seen on TV) is very poor. I was on the stadium tour a couple of years ago and pointed this out to the guide, who said he would pass my comments on) The brickwork is ok....but might have been done as a project by a bricklaying apprentice. There are numerous rawlplug holes (some with the old rawlplug/plasplug still visible) This is a very tatty face for Manchester United to display to the world!
Think of the attractive frontage that could be there instead. I see something in stainless steel with the United logo emlazened within it. Or it might feature quaity timbers. Have a competition for fans to come up with a design.
Whatever.....the shabby brick frontage has to go. It is driving me a bit mad. If you agree with my comments please join me in shouting up about it. It would cost a lot of money to refurbish the stadium but only "peanuts" to smarten up this front of dug-out area.
 
I've always wondered about this. We have hundreds of millions to splash on players but seem to hold back when it comes to upgrading the stadium or training facilities. I've read a few times that our training facilities lack behind some of the other top Premier League clubs.
 
Call me biased but I've always liked Old Trafford as quite an honest stadium.

Ive been to Wembley three times and the only part I really enjoy is the concourses. I think that's what really lets OT down. I think the manner in which our concourses are laid out, we invite that sort of peasant approach where people throw their shit all over, people don't really want to grab a bite or even a drink etc. Whereas at Wembley, it's like a bloody food court, it almost invites civilisation from fans and no matter what you'll always have a chat with someone with needing to be pissed up.

Car parks I think are a disgrace at OT, purely because of the price and how much the attendants want to squeeze people in. I don't want my 30 grand car to be scratched up so I'd rather park a mile down the road for free and walk it.

Im about 6 ft 2 and quite lanky, so if I buy a peasant seat, I find I either feel like shit after the game or experience cramp during the game. Again, considering Wembley where you can set up a tent with all the space you get, I think OT needs to improve in this aspect.

But all things considered, keep wifi, screens and all that other unnecessary crap away from OT at all costs.
 
I'm all for building a new stadium on the land the Glazers own

Sadly the stadium has become outdated and looks ugly in comparison to modern stadiums
 
Just hope the UK will get either the Euro´s or the WC and have the state upgrade the stadiums like they did in Germany, France or all the other places.

Hannover for example

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DavidLayland said:
The quality of the dug-out area (as so often seen on TV) is very poor. I was on the stadium tour a couple of years ago and pointed this out to the guide, who said he would pass my comments on) The brickwork is ok....but might have been done as a project by a bricklaying apprentice. There are numerous rawlplug holes (some with the old rawlplug/plasplug still visible) This is a very tatty face for Manchester United to display to the world!
Think of the attractive frontage that could be there instead. I see something in stainless steel with the United logo emlazened within it. Or it might feature quaity timbers. Have a competition for fans to come up with a design.
Whatever.....the shabby brick frontage has to go. It is driving me a bit mad. If you agree with my comments please join me in shouting up about it. It would cost a lot of money to refurbish the stadium but only "peanuts" to smarten up this front of dug-out area.
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In the grand scheme of things and considering the other pressing issues with the stadium that could and should be addressed. It's safe to say visible rawl plugs is a very low priority for the club i would imagine.
 
Personally think they are waiting to drop the debt further and for us to be back into a period of success, then we'll be getting a new stadium. Only reason i can think of for them buying up land around Old Trafford.

Problem is, didn't MUST campaign for and won to have Old Trafford declared a 'asset of community value' meaning it can't be used for anything else?
 
stevoc said:
If it was a new stadium i doubt many would care. Most United fans would have a problem with Old Trafford being renamed though.

But i think it's highly unlikely we ever move from Old Trafford for a new stadium. It just doesn't make sense to me. To build a new stadium that matches OT we would be looking at an outlay of somewhere in the region of £600-800m. When i imagine for £150-300m we could redevelop OT increase capacity and give the stadium a modern facelift. And at the same time continue in an iconic world famous stadium packed with history that has been the clubs home for more than a century. Easy choice for me.
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Outlay maybe that much, but if you build a new stadium, then use the old land for hotels/commercial/corporate facilities/housing etc etc. You can recoup that cost then gain more revenue. We could do similar to Spurs, but we also have a much larger piece of land to work with.
 
Hal9000 said:
Personally think they are waiting to drop the debt further and for us to be back into a period of success, then we'll be getting a new stadium. Only reason i can think of for them buying up land around Old Trafford.

Problem is, didn't MUST campaign for and won to have Old Trafford declared a 'asset of community value' meaning it can't be used for anything else?
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I think the club bought the land around OT so no one else could buy it and build something beside the ground. The only bit of land the clubs doesn't own had a hotel built on it and the club tried to stop that too.

I don't see how it makes financial sense to build a new stadium, most clubs that go down that route only do so because their stadiums couldn't be expanded. Thats not the case with OT.
 
stevoc said:
I think the club bought the land around OT so no one else could buy it and build something beside the ground. The only bit of land the clubs doesn't own had a hotel built on it and the club tried to stop that too.

I don't see how it makes financial sense to build a new stadium, most clubs that go down that route only do so because their stadiums couldn't be expanded. Thats not the case with OT.
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Can we expand it more though if the railway is a problem? Build the other stands even higher so it is a complete hotch potch and risk someone having a heart attack climbing to their seats?
 
Hal9000 said:
Outlay maybe that much, but if you build a new stadium, then use the old land for hotels/commercial/corporate facilities/housing etc etc. You can recoup that cost then gain more revenue. We could do similar to Spurs, but we also have a much larger piece of land to work with.
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Or just use the land adjacent to OT to build those things and spend half as much upgrading OT as you would building a new stadium. You end up with the same things for half the outlay.

Considering the club are investing money in upgrading the disabled section and theres talk of further expansion i don't think a new stadium is even being considered.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Can we expand it more though if the railway is a problem? Build the other stands even higher so it is a complete hotch potch and risk someone having a heart attack climbing to their seats?
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I'm no expert but i imagine with modern building techniques expanding the south stand over the tracks isn't the daunting task it once was. Bear in mind to make the south mirror the north it would increase the capacity to 95,000. I don't think the club would want to go that big so any expansion to the south stand would likely be more conservative and only add 5,000-10,000 seats and probably include lots of executive boxes so the footprint of the stand wouldn't need to be as big as the north stand.
 
stevoc said:
I'm no expert but i imagine with modern building techniques expanding the south stand over the tracks isn't the daunting task it once was. Bear in mind to make the south mirror the north it would increase the capacity to 95,000. I don't think the club would want to go that big so any expansion to the south stand would likely be more conservative and only add 5,000-10,000 seats and probably include lots of executive boxes so the footprint of the stand wouldn't need to be as big as the north stand.
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Isn't this the problem, increasing the capacity so even more people sit in discomfort, when maybe they should just be upgrading the facilities and seating arrangements, the food concourses and make them friendly looking, more choice of food. The toilet facilities, as a woman they are not great and not enough. Hope safe standing does come as well as they would have to rethink things then. Think that would help the atmosphere no end. Obviously access to the ground with regards parking is a problem and the jams caused when the crowds leave the stadium, that would need to be discussed with the local council.
 
stevoc said:
Or just use the land adjacent to OT to build those things and spend half as much upgrading OT as you would building a new stadium. You end up with the same things for half the outlay.

Considering the club are investing money in upgrading the disabled section and theres talk of further expansion i don't think a new stadium is even being considered.
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The problem is you are not going to get around some of the issues by just upgrading. The seating problem being one, you are not going to be able to get more space, without reducing capacity, without a bigger area. Even getting more executive/corp/VIP areas into the stadium will need more room. The demand is there, but room isn't and currently the club uses Old Trafford Cricket Ground and Victoria Warehouse for some packages. If you want more choice/selection in the concourse and bigger and better toilets, again room is needed. The age of the stadium also causes issues with just upgrading, they announced that although they hope for completion by end of this season, the structural work to get the 300 disabled seats has hit unforeseen issues. Building a new stadium, you can also rethink the access and transport issues around the ground.

Yes i doubt they will ever build a new stadium, at least anytime soon. But i believe that if we want to keep up, it's probably the way forward, there is only so much you can do to patch up something that is 100+ years old.

According to MEN we can fill our stadium twice with our current season ticket waiting list. If we build a stadium, we could easily fill more than 100k+
 
IMO there are two problems. Firstly, the West, North and East stands the rooves hangs too low - people at the back are cut off and it feels too enclosed. I'm not sure how costly this would be to rectify, probably too much to mak eit worthwhile. Secondly, the South Stand is just crap-too small, too old and the corporate bit is very poor. I first sat in there 17 May 1969 and it hasn't changed since then. It needs demolishing and replaced with a two-tier structure including some high yield corporate stuff to match the rest of the ground. I believe technology has improved so we can do it without building over the railway line. The ground looks fine from the West, North and East but from the South is looks like pre-War Britain
 
I don't really care for a massive glass bowl type of stadium, I do like the brick and steel aesthetic, but as others said there are certain stuff that need looking at:
1) Leg room, it's atrocious and one of the worst I've seen in a big stadium
2) Toilet facilities are rather crappy and outdated
3) Roof is old, leaky and hangs low covering most of the terraces.

These are things that need to get done. The problem with point #1, is that if you increase leg space you lose seats unless you build a new stand at the same time to compensate. So without a new stand it's a no go. Which would require building over the train tracks.

Changing the entire roof, changing the rows for more leg space, building a new stand, moving the train tracks and renovating toilet facilities would cost a helluva lot of money which will inevitably lead to the question: "If we're spending so much money on the stadium, why not start from scratch and build something more modern that will last another 50 years, instead of having being faced with the same decision again in 15-20 years time?"

As other have said, escalators for the higher tiers, a new standing/singing stand, a big screen, better concourses. These are all things that could added if we rebuilt.

Depending on how Mourinho does in the next year or so and whether he suffers "3rd year syndrome" or not might influence things. If he keeps doing well and extends then we should take advantage of this period of stability after 4 years of chaos and put plans in for something new.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Isn't this the problem, increasing the capacity so even more people sit in discomfort, when maybe they should just be upgrading the facilities and seating arrangements, the food concourses and make them friendly looking, more choice of food. The toilet facilities, as a woman they are not great and not enough. Hope safe standing does come as well as they would have to rethink things then. Think that would help the atmosphere no end. Obviously access to the ground with regards parking is a problem and the jams caused when the crowds leave the stadium, that would need to be discussed with the local council.
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Hal9000 said:
The problem is you are not going to get around some of the issues by just upgrading. The seating problem being one, you are not going to be able to get more space, without reducing capacity, without a bigger area.
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But is that a major concern from the clubs point of view?

I'm not sure that it is, the seats are a bit cramped but they've been like that for decades. So there might not be the incentive there for the club to change that and potentially lose thousands of seats. It would be great for the fans as a fairly tall guy myself i've always found them a bit uncomfortable.

Hal9000 said:
Even getting more executive/corp/VIP areas into the stadium will need more room. The demand is there, but room isn't and currently the club uses Old Trafford Cricket Ground and Victoria Warehouse for some packages. If you want more choice/selection in the concourse and bigger and better toilets, again room is needed. The age of the stadium also causes issues with just upgrading, they announced that although they hope for completion by end of this season, the structural work to get the 300 disabled seats has hit unforeseen issues. Building a new stadium, you can also rethink the access and transport issues around the ground.

Yes i doubt they will ever build a new stadium, at least anytime soon. But i believe that if we want to keep up, it's probably the way forward, there is only so much you can do to patch up something that is 100+ years old.

According to MEN we can fill our stadium twice with our current season ticket waiting list. If we build a stadium, we could easily fill more than 100k+
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For executive boxes i'm sure i've heard a few rumours that they are looking into a wall of executive boxes above the south stand to bring that stand up in height with the others without having to build too far out over the tracks. With that design they could add lots of boxes, would it be enough to satisfy demand no idea.

As for filling a 100+k stadium every week i'm not going to pretend i know for sure whether or not we could fill that every week. But i can't think of a football team in the world who regularly fills 100+k seats every week, so i am a bit sceptical United could do it. Could we do it for big games certainly, but could we do it every week for the foreseeable future?
 
stevoc said:
But is that a major concern from the clubs point of view?

I'm not sure that it is, the seats are a bit cramped but they've been like that for decades. So there might not be the incentive there for the club to change that and potentially lose thousands of seats. It would be great for the fans as a fairly tall guy myself i've always found them a bit uncomfortable.



For executive boxes i'm sure i've heard a few rumours that they are looking into a wall of executive boxes above the south stand to bring that stand up in height with the others without having to build too far out over the tracks. With that design they could add lots of boxes, would it be enough to satisfy demand no idea.

As for filling a 100+k stadium every week i'm not going to pretend i know for sure whether or not we could fill that every week. But i can't think of a football team in the world who regularly fills 100+k seats every week, so i am a bit sceptical United could do it. Could we do it for big games certainly, but could we do it every week for the foreseeable future?
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It's why i said, if they do want to sort it without sacrificing capacity then it will most likely be a new stadium. Probably not there priority as it's not stopping people attending, same as the roofs being to low etc etc.. Lots of things they can do to change the match day experience but they probably won't have the appetite to do it. You are correct about possibility of expanding and location of exec boxes, but again feel it will only address a small amount of demand.

As for filling 100k, i'm just going on a MEN report that we apparently have a 75k waiting list for season tickets. We have 55k season tickets now, so even if you added 1/2 from that waiting list and kept same amount of general sale, you'd be well on way.
 
MadMike said:
I don't really care for a massive glass bowl type of stadium, I do like the brick and steel aesthetic, but as others said there are certain stuff that need looking at:
1) Leg room, it's atrocious and one of the worst I've seen in a big stadium
2) Toilet facilities are rather crappy and outdated
3) Roof is old, leaky and hangs low covering most of the terraces.

These are things that need to get done. The problem with point #1, is that if you increase leg space you lose seats unless you build a new stand at the same time to compensate. So without a new stand it's a no go. Which would require building over the train tracks.

Changing the entire roof, changing the rows for more leg space, building a new stand, moving the train tracks and renovating toilet facilities would cost a helluva lot of money which will inevitably lead to the question: "If we're spending so much money on the stadium, why not start from scratch and build something more modern that will last another 50 years, instead of having being faced with the same decision again in 15-20 years time?"

As other have said, escalators for the higher tiers, a new standing/singing stand, a big screen, better concourses. These are all things that could added if we rebuilt.

Depending on how Mourinho does in the next year or so and whether he suffers "3rd year syndrome" or not might influence things. If he keeps doing well and extends then we should take advantage of this period of stability after 4 years of chaos and put plans in for something new.
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They're dreadful. I make sure to go to the toilet before I set off and I don't drink anything on the journey in order to avoid having to go once I'm there.

The Urinals which have you standing face to face with someone else just seem bizarre and I would never be able to go with someone stood right across from me. So awkward.

Maybe the newer parts of the stadium are a bit better, but I would not use the first tier East stand toilets unless I was beyond desperate.
 
The toilets aren't great, but then are any football ground toilets ever great with 100s of people around you at the same time?

Interesting reading a lot of the posts though. 75K waiting list for season tickets, if anywhere near true is incredible. Even if you took out the people who just whacked their email address down without any real inclination to buy, that's serious depth.

An interesting figure would be how many of the 55k season ticket holders drop out each year on average.

It sounds like I very definitely got in at the right time 5 years ago.
 
Mart1974 said:
Mitten mentions that City have spent money on their stadium. Really, I thought it was built for thr commonwealth games and given to them.
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stadium is still owned by the council, City pay 5 million in rent per year.
they also paid for the conversion to a football stadium after the commonwealth games and for the first stage of their expansion plans that were completed in 2015 raising the capaity from 47K to 55K. They have just finished upgrading the changing areas and added a bizarre glass tunnel and executive seating, but apparantley will bring in big corporate bucks. They have planning permission to expand to 61K, but have yet to start that.
 
Hal9000 said:
It's why i said, if they do want to sort it without sacrificing capacity then it will most likely be a new stadium. Probably not there priority as it's not stopping people attending, same as the roofs being to low etc etc.. Lots of things they can do to change the match day experience but they probably won't have the appetite to do it. You are correct about possibility of expanding and location of exec boxes, but again feel it will only address a small amount of demand.

As for filling 100k, i'm just going on a MEN report that we apparently have a 75k waiting list for season tickets. We have 55k season tickets now, so even if you added 1/2 from that waiting list and kept same amount of general sale, you'd be well on way.
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Fair enough mate i get what you are saying. Theres a load of changes that could be made to make the match going experience way more comfortable and convenient. But i just don't ever see the Glazers willing to part with the best part of £1b to build a new stadium to accommodate those changes.

And thats before even thinking about how the majority of United fans would feel about OT getting bulldozed. I personally think within the next 5-10 years the club will expand the ground, remove the roof and give the ground a facelift. But thats about it.
 
As much as I love the stadium there are obvious major flaws as has been discussed.

Every time I go I end up with horrendous back and neck pain from contorting myself to fit in the seat. I mean it's 100 years old so it's no great shock that it's outdated, but I don't think there's an easy or obvious solution. I'd imagine it would need a new build.

I can't picture in my mind how big the car park areas are immediately around the stadium; is there room to build a new stadium there and then knock the current one down? Not sure how I'd feel about that though.
 
Rado_N said:
As much as I love the stadium there are obvious major flaws as has been discussed.

Every time I go I end up with horrendous back and neck pain from contorting myself to fit in the seat. I mean it's 100 years old so it's no great shock that it's outdated, but I don't think there's an easy or obvious solution. I'd imagine it would need a new build.

I can't picture in my mind how big the car park areas are immediately around the stadium; is there room to build a new stadium there and then knock the current one down? Not sure how I'd feel about that though.
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Is it really though? It was rebuilt after the 2nd world war bombings and then 3 of the the four stands have been completely rebuilt within the last 21-22 years.
 
I don't think you united will build a new stadium for 2 reasons. Firstly, OT is part of the Manchester United brand. Imagine Barca moved away from the Camp Nou! Secondly, old Trafford is probably one of the best stadiums in England. Not many can match it.

On upgrading the sir Bobby Charlton stand, the issue lies with the train track directly behind it so not as simple as just expanding it. To an extent it's out of United's hands. Whilst that stop is only used on match days, everyday trains do run through there on a daily basis. I assume if they were to close that station then it will be on united to rebuild it and also compensate for any re-routing that will have to take place during any expansions.
 
People still go on about the rail track hindering any expansion....seriously?

With the technological and architecture advances we should be able to refurd/expand south stand and refurb other parts of the stadium, i guess the question is can we afford it.

I personally would be fine with going down the branding rights route if it means having the best stadium in UK.
 
I'd like to see the South Stand rebuilt to bring it in line with the rest of the stadium and then you can look at re-doing the whole roof when that's done. Instead of ramming it full of seats, round it up to 90000, but by giving more legroom all over the stadium
 
South Stand improvement meaning it's the same size as East/West (or even better North)

That's it for me. Don't want WI-FI, big screens etc, I go to OT every game and love it for what it is. I go to most aways and the new stadiums are really shite, no soul and no atmosphere.
 
I don't envy the modern stadiums either, Wembley, the Olympic/London Stadium aren't anything special (far from it), Old Trafford is fine as it is imo

I went on the stadium tour for the second time in the close season and construction work was being done at the time, the home dressing rooms for example were off limits due to new flooring being fitted
 
We don't need a new stadium. OT is unique. A lot of the new stadiums look exactly the same (Spurs, Emirates, Wembley). Even Atletico's new stadium looks a lot like Wembley.
All we need to do is expand the South stand, upgrade the exterior and lick of paint here and there. We also need wifi/better mobile signal inside the ground. A multi-storey car park would be nice too.
 
All I ask for is an escalator to the top of the SAF stand. :nervous:
 
As a match going season ticket holder I don't want a new ground but OT does need to have a lot of money spent on it. I'm guessing that most people that want a nice new shiny toy don't go to matches??
 
Gatti33 said:
I don't think you united will build a new stadium for 2 reasons. Firstly, OT is part of the Manchester United brand. Imagine Barca moved away from the Camp Nou! Secondly, old Trafford is probably one of the best stadiums in England. Not many can match it.

On upgrading the sir Bobby Charlton stand, the issue lies with the train track directly behind it so not as simple as just expanding it. To an extent it's out of United's hands. Whilst that stop is only used on match days, everyday trains do run through there on a daily basis. I assume if they were to close that station then it will be on united to rebuild it and also compensate for any re-routing that will have to take place during any expansions.
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If you cantilever over the track there'll only be speed restrictions...no need for re-routing...maybe when they're hanging steels, but otherwise crack on as normal...
 
People keep talking about just building over the track for the Sir Bobby stand expansion but doesn't that come with a security threat? I'm by no means an expert and perhaps I'm talking complete rubbish but if someone had sinister intentions for causing an explosion at Old Trafford, wouldn't it be easier to get the explosive in the train and detonate while under the stadium as opposed to trying to smuggle it in the stadium?
 
Flytan said:
If a new stadium was built you can almost certainly guarantee that naming rights would be involved.

Would the average United fan be okay with that? Wasn't under the impression they would.

Never been to Old Trafford (sadly) but not having to hear a trademarked sponsor is incredibly appealing to me.
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I have a funny feeling the "class of 92" would throw their oars in there. I can't think of any company names that would appeal to me.
 
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