Mike's Sheep Draft - Final: Enigma vs Jim Beam
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Probably a moot point either way as we rate them differently, so as I said we can agree to disagree
Well you said you like numbers
No, really, are you playing high press then and high defensive line? How do you intend to pin us back?
Well you said you like numbers
No, really, are you playing high press then and high defensive line? How do you intend to pin us back?
Am having (listen closely)... Franz, Rijkaard, Neeskens, Cruyff, Jinky in the middle. Two attackers on your two defenders.
Since you like the numbers go figure this one.
That doesn't really answer my question. Is this the defensive phase or attacking phase?
Does this mean you are surrendering the wings and allowing us to have a free run at your full backs, because that won't end well?
Will you play high press, high line or press us in your own half?
I'd love you to give us one on ones on the flanks on consistent basis with zero cover from your midfield whilst they are packed in the middle and keeping Essien and Schweini busy.
Attacking.
I let even Facchetti out if you think you that isn't enough. 1 on 1, against team dynamics is fine with me no matter how good your wingers are.
Press at first with a pressing trigger being your midfield, letting your FB run the play.
How will you stop Cruyff?
Facchetti point aside (I may agree with you on that), Costacurta and Tassotti played in Sacchi's Milan. You know, the side that used very aggressive pressing and off-side traps all the time?
IMO would be easier to defend against you in this way. Figueroa and Nesta are a wall in front of the keeper and with our full backs tucking in considering there will be not much pressure on the wings will squeeze the pitch for you making an easier to make a mistake.
I don't think anyone would live up with Garrincha being left out alone one on one against him. Not even Facchetti.
Cruyff will come into a very packed space with GOAT defenders and 2 holders in front of him. It would be a team effort.
They did of course but they didn't face a team of this proportion and anything close to this attack.
Red Star was very close to beating them in their pump if it wasn't for the Belgrade fog.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/24573761
quality article if anyone is interested.
It's not about fit, rather than isolating our attackers against the opposition full backs with loads of space . You definitely need support when you face either Garrincha or Ronaldinho. Both are the type that can dribble you in a phone booth and create numerical advantage.
A high line, high press would mean our attack facing them on the front foot and using their pace to create space directly behind them. When we have finishers like Pele, Batigol, Dinho and Garrincha we won't need many chances to execute.
Also a high press is very tough to execute - you have to have a very well drilled unit with everyone participating(which I don't see Charles being part of it, nor probably Facchetti). The room for error is very slim too, whilst on the other side we have the solid base not to make many mistakes but also keep possession without losing it.
Milan had a team that was well build and with phenomenal talent, but a technical team like Red Star gave them trouble in both legs. Whilst they also had some top players like Piksi and Savicevic, here they are facing quite a different challenge.
In any case with us having the better defense and also attack the opposition will have less room for error whilst we have more chance of converting chances which eventually gives us the edge.
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You do talk a lot. I'll give you that.
Well, neither did anyone ever. It's not even debatable that Costacurta and Tassotti aren't as good as Figueroa/Nesta/Djalma, but it's weird to accuse Jim of some sort of a tactical suicide just because they are playing in the roles they have excelled in (and formed arguably the greatest club defense of all-time, even though Baresi & Maldini were the stars of it).
That was my point.
I meant in terms of us winning the game rather than accusing him of anything.
I didn't imply they are not fit for the roles, but in those roles I trust our attackers to get the best out of them and eventually win the game for us, that's it.
As you also mentioned both Baresi and Maldini formed that defence and marshaled it and Maldini and Facchetti are a bit different in their style. Whilst obviously they are good fit stylistically, never said otherwise, do you not think our attack prevailing most often than not?
Looks to me that we tend to over-complicate things in these drafts and individuals not really getting the spotlight they deserve. That Brazil side in 1970, on paper wouldn't even function, yet the individual brilliance made it work.
02 Brazil side was torn apart off the pitch yet that attack made it work with a very meh midfield and a shaky central defence apart from Lucio.
I don't see our attack not functioning and we definitely have the better defence, yet doesn't seem to attract many votes. Go figure
@harms any particular reason for the vote change? Because I'm not sure you understood my point the right way
@harms any particular reason for the vote change? Because I'm not sure you understood my point the right way
The best thing ever is when people asked Tuppet why he changed his vote
Am not sure it is appropriate to call it out though.
Peak beam.
Doing my best
How he shut up now
Must be a colossal performance from Bastian.
Must be a colossal performance from Bastian.
He had about 10 votes to change.The best thing ever is when people asked Tuppet why he changed his vote
Am not sure it is appropriate to call it out though.
Ok, to cut to the bone. This team wins it 9 out of 10 with Van Basten upfront.
I don't have Van Basten, but to invite pressure and rely on individual brilliance of Garrincha and front 4 who will be cut of from supply while not providing defensive cover is strange to me. Downplaying every condition in which that Brazillian combo worked too.
Will come back later. Hear, hear...
I don't have Van Basten, but to invite pressure and rely on individual brilliance of Garrincha and front 4 who will be cut of from supply while not providing defensive cover is strange to me. Downplaying every condition in which that Brazillian combo worked too.
Will come back later. Hear, hear...
Really don’t think much of Enigmas Midfield and think that might be where this game is won or lost. In an all time context, if you’re putting a full back up against Garrincha that might be able to come out on top, Facchetti is one of maybe 3 who would be on that list. Jinky at the peak of his powers is just a Scottish Garrincha, and he actually fairer very well against facchetti in 67. Now he’s up against an inferior left back, it could get messy.
I love Jim’s team except for the inclusion of john Charles because I don’t see the game playing out in a way that suits his talents.
will refrain from voting since this is the only game of the draft I’ve really paid attention to, but I would lean towards Jim whilst being cognizant of the fact that enigmas front line could destroy most teams in history on any given day
I love Jim’s team except for the inclusion of john Charles because I don’t see the game playing out in a way that suits his talents.
will refrain from voting since this is the only game of the draft I’ve really paid attention to, but I would lean towards Jim whilst being cognizant of the fact that enigmas front line could destroy most teams in history on any given day
Then you should've simply said "playing Costacurta and Tassoti is suicide"That was my point.
The vote change had little to do with you. I like Jim's team better and I finally convinced myself that his team would work better as a unit, although I may even change it back before in finishes. Your team is also magnificent and that Brazilian trio & Figueroa with Nesta is just sublime.
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You nailed it and you have a bright future here.
Oi Pele, you will have to play a bit different here.
Then you should've simply said "playing Costacurta and Tassoti is suicide"
The vote change had little to do with you. I like Jim's team better and I finally convinced myself that his team would work better as a unit, although I may even change it back before in finishes. Your team is also magnificent and that Brazilian trio & Figueroa with Nesta is just sublime.
Great attack always overcomes in the end
But yeah thanks for explaining. Your choice whether you will go with me, Jimbo or call it a draw(also an option)
But yeah thanks for explaining. Your choice whether you will go with me, Jimbo or call it a draw(also an option)
love playing against you
Grew on me too
love playing against you
Why didn't you sign up for the other one?
You can take scrappy's placeGrew on me too
Why didn't you sign up for the other one?
I am scrappy.
@DVG7 you should vote btw, your choice is whether you will go with me, the other one or call it enigma (also an option)
I am scrappy.
@DVG7 you should vote btw, your choice is whether you will go with me, the other one or call it enigma (also an option)
voted enigma, he sent a PayPal payment
I would put Butcher in attack if you came first
will not a tag a person behind it... Why is he underrated in people's mind? Because you would fill a team with 11 Nesskens and be perfect with it. Pick him ahead of any other player as he can defend, attack, press, be a goal-threat. He had it all. 11 Neeskens in a team would work, that's how great he was.
Puskas for me, is the best 2nd striker the sport has seen if you want someone to do a number of jobs in that role, linking the team and being an understated force that lets 'bigger' names shine and takes no glory for himself while smashing goals.
That's me if you didn't notice, copying everything above.
Cruyff - no words.
This team deserved to go down swinging.
Show Lula Batistuta some well deserved love
There is only one … Gabriel Batistuta
Nigel Winterburn, David Seaman, my first trip to Wembley. Within the blink of an eye, all three were ruined by a long-haired Argentinian.
Mario Kempes, Diego Maradona, Juan Roman Riquelme, Lionel Messi. The greats of the Argentina attack are usually number 10s. Then there’s Gabriel Batistuta, an archetypal and unashamed No9.
“Batistuta is the best striker I have ever seen,” says Diego Maradona. He would know a thing or two.
Fiorentina’s all-time leading goalscorer, it would take Lionel Messi 112 Argentina appearances to break the 56-goal record Batigol set in 78 international caps. But it was a career that almost didn’t happen.
Concerned by injury, leaving home, and having his studies ruined, Gabriel Batistuta almost didn’t become a professional footballer. Only an enormous charm offensive from Newell’s Old Boys could drag the reluctant 18-year-old south to Rosario.
By the time he was 21, the striker had moved to River Plate and then the club he supported as a kid (and River’s arch rivals) Boca Juniors. It was there where he truly announced his talents.
After a tough start at Boca, the striker top-scored in the Clausura tournament, helping the club finish top before they lost the play-off final to Newell’s Old Boys.
There was no title to celebrate but Batistuta had earned his place in the Argentina national setup. Six goals and a winners’ medal at the 1991 Copa América secured a move to Europe and Fiorentina, where he became one of the world’s best.
Fiorentina were relegated from Serie A in Batistuta’s second season, despite his 16 goals that year. With a World Cup on the horizon he easily could have left.
No demands for a transfer or hissy fits, Batistuta had become an adopted son of Florence and stayed against all expectations. With 16 goals in 26 games, he helped Fiorentina to the Serie B title.
“I just fell in love with the city and I really liked the atmosphere,” the striker says.
“I said to myself: ‘I’m going to stay here.’
“That was despite the fact, back then, big teams from abroad such as Real Madrid and Manchester United were after me on a regular basis.”
Argentina’s first choice striker prepared for the World Cup by spending a year in Serie B as he approached his peak years. It isn’t hard to understand why Fiorentina fans built a statue of him.
That Serie B season didn’t lose him his World Cup place, either. Batistuta scored four times at USA 1994, including a hat-trick against Greece. Another triple at France ’98 against Jamaica made him the only player to score a hat-trick at two World Cups, a record which still stands.
A league notorious for its defending, Serie A was at the height of its powers in the 1990s, yet Batistuta netted 184 times there in his 13 seasons. Of the 80 players with a century of Serie A goals, just six players have a better goal-per-game return than Batistuta and none of those played a game after 1958.
All of that was done without one or two standout seasons – in nine years at Fiorentina, he showed incredible consistency, scoring between 14 and 29 in every single campaign across all competitions. The level of performance Batigol maintained for a decade is unbelievable.
Those nine seasons with La Viola, regrettably, saw just two winners medals. The Coppa Italia and Supercopa, both in 1996.
“To tell you the truth [moving to a bigger club] didn’t interest me so much because, although there were titles, they were easy to win. They didn’t have to fight hard to win them or even extend themselves slightly. So that stopped me from moving.
“I said: ‘No, I’m staying with Fiorentina and I’ll try to win something here because one title with Fiorentina is worth ten with Milan or Juventus.”
The same unfortunately barren fate awaited on the world stage with Argentina. Among the favourites in 1994 and 1998, things never turned out quite right.
In 1994 they suffered a shock defeat to Romania after Diego Maradona’s controversial drugs test. Four years on, an incredible Netherlands side narrowly won one of the greatest ever World Cup quarter-finals.
Another four years passed and Batistuta, knowing it was his last shot at glory, suffered as Argentina exited the 2002 competition on goal difference and he retired from international football.
At least by then the Argentine had a league title to his name.
Fiorentina had failed to convincingly compete for Serie A or European honours and, at 31, Batigol knew he had to leave if he were to finish his career with a major title.
Within a year, his decision was justified. Along with it, he justified £23.5m AS Roma splashed out on him. To this day it is the highest fee ever paid for a player over the age of 30.
Twenty eight Serie-A appearances and 20 goals later, Roma clinched their only Scudetto since 1983. Like Roma, Batigol finally had his major title.
After that, his career petered out. Injuries had taken their toll and players are just less explosive as they go further into their 30s.
At first glance, there is nothing special about Gabriel Batistuta. He is not unique. He is not the best finisher the game has ever seen; he is not a player with flawless control or someone who reinvented the way strikers played.
Hw was a very typical number nine. Yet somehow atypical.
Batistuta could do anything you would ask of a striker and do all of it well. And he did so consistently at the top level for over a decade.
When you watch all his Serie A goals you see quickly he could score in any way: deft finishes, tap-ins, bullet headers, long-range efforts smashed home. It was all in his repertoire.
A player of huge stature, the most obvious strength was the power with which he could strike the ball from any distance. He had good control and was excellent in the air. His presence was intimidating and his attitude tenacious. Unlike many great strikers, his dead-ball ability was incredible.
Then there are the subtleties to his game; the things big No9s don’t do. The more you watch Batistuta, the more you see the intelligent movement, the sly actions to gain any advantage, the malleability of his game. He was not just a powerful finisher and good target man.
That entire Arsenal game is a good example of Batistuta’s subtleties. Ask almost anyone and they say he didn’t do much until the goal.
Watch his highlights only and you realise he was always lurking, threatening to do something. Peeling off the back of the defence before being caught offside, drifting wide to find space with or without the ball, constantly harassing the Arsenal backline.
With the goal itself everything spectacular is in the touch to beat Winterburn and the fired finish but there is so much more to it: there’s an ingrained intelligence in the way he sticks wide of the defence and allows Winterburn to retreat, giving himself space to tempt the defender in before accelerating away.
As time goes on it becomes increasingly difficult to see where players from bygone eras would fit into the modern game, but not with Batistuta. In our current era without two strikers he would have no trouble leading the line alone, marrying all his attributes to combine the style of your archetypal number nine and the more agile and less restricted roles of forwards today.
He had the technical ability and speed, the strength and intelligence, to drift wide or deep, to hold the ball up or play merely as a poacher.
One of the greatest strikers we’ve ever seen, one of the most loyal players of all-time, an endearing legend for club and country.
Argentina’s greatest ever pure goalscorer and one of the best strikers in the history of Italian football, there is only one Gabriel Batistuta.
There is only one … Gabriel Batistuta
Nigel Winterburn, David Seaman, my first trip to Wembley. Within the blink of an eye, all three were ruined by a long-haired Argentinian.
Mario Kempes, Diego Maradona, Juan Roman Riquelme, Lionel Messi. The greats of the Argentina attack are usually number 10s. Then there’s Gabriel Batistuta, an archetypal and unashamed No9.
“Batistuta is the best striker I have ever seen,” says Diego Maradona. He would know a thing or two.
Fiorentina’s all-time leading goalscorer, it would take Lionel Messi 112 Argentina appearances to break the 56-goal record Batigol set in 78 international caps. But it was a career that almost didn’t happen.
Concerned by injury, leaving home, and having his studies ruined, Gabriel Batistuta almost didn’t become a professional footballer. Only an enormous charm offensive from Newell’s Old Boys could drag the reluctant 18-year-old south to Rosario.
By the time he was 21, the striker had moved to River Plate and then the club he supported as a kid (and River’s arch rivals) Boca Juniors. It was there where he truly announced his talents.
After a tough start at Boca, the striker top-scored in the Clausura tournament, helping the club finish top before they lost the play-off final to Newell’s Old Boys.
There was no title to celebrate but Batistuta had earned his place in the Argentina national setup. Six goals and a winners’ medal at the 1991 Copa América secured a move to Europe and Fiorentina, where he became one of the world’s best.
Fiorentina were relegated from Serie A in Batistuta’s second season, despite his 16 goals that year. With a World Cup on the horizon he easily could have left.
No demands for a transfer or hissy fits, Batistuta had become an adopted son of Florence and stayed against all expectations. With 16 goals in 26 games, he helped Fiorentina to the Serie B title.
“I just fell in love with the city and I really liked the atmosphere,” the striker says.
“I said to myself: ‘I’m going to stay here.’
“That was despite the fact, back then, big teams from abroad such as Real Madrid and Manchester United were after me on a regular basis.”
Argentina’s first choice striker prepared for the World Cup by spending a year in Serie B as he approached his peak years. It isn’t hard to understand why Fiorentina fans built a statue of him.
That Serie B season didn’t lose him his World Cup place, either. Batistuta scored four times at USA 1994, including a hat-trick against Greece. Another triple at France ’98 against Jamaica made him the only player to score a hat-trick at two World Cups, a record which still stands.
A league notorious for its defending, Serie A was at the height of its powers in the 1990s, yet Batistuta netted 184 times there in his 13 seasons. Of the 80 players with a century of Serie A goals, just six players have a better goal-per-game return than Batistuta and none of those played a game after 1958.
All of that was done without one or two standout seasons – in nine years at Fiorentina, he showed incredible consistency, scoring between 14 and 29 in every single campaign across all competitions. The level of performance Batigol maintained for a decade is unbelievable.
Those nine seasons with La Viola, regrettably, saw just two winners medals. The Coppa Italia and Supercopa, both in 1996.
“To tell you the truth [moving to a bigger club] didn’t interest me so much because, although there were titles, they were easy to win. They didn’t have to fight hard to win them or even extend themselves slightly. So that stopped me from moving.
“I said: ‘No, I’m staying with Fiorentina and I’ll try to win something here because one title with Fiorentina is worth ten with Milan or Juventus.”
The same unfortunately barren fate awaited on the world stage with Argentina. Among the favourites in 1994 and 1998, things never turned out quite right.
In 1994 they suffered a shock defeat to Romania after Diego Maradona’s controversial drugs test. Four years on, an incredible Netherlands side narrowly won one of the greatest ever World Cup quarter-finals.
Another four years passed and Batistuta, knowing it was his last shot at glory, suffered as Argentina exited the 2002 competition on goal difference and he retired from international football.
At least by then the Argentine had a league title to his name.
Fiorentina had failed to convincingly compete for Serie A or European honours and, at 31, Batigol knew he had to leave if he were to finish his career with a major title.
Within a year, his decision was justified. Along with it, he justified £23.5m AS Roma splashed out on him. To this day it is the highest fee ever paid for a player over the age of 30.
Twenty eight Serie-A appearances and 20 goals later, Roma clinched their only Scudetto since 1983. Like Roma, Batigol finally had his major title.
After that, his career petered out. Injuries had taken their toll and players are just less explosive as they go further into their 30s.
At first glance, there is nothing special about Gabriel Batistuta. He is not unique. He is not the best finisher the game has ever seen; he is not a player with flawless control or someone who reinvented the way strikers played.
Hw was a very typical number nine. Yet somehow atypical.
Batistuta could do anything you would ask of a striker and do all of it well. And he did so consistently at the top level for over a decade.
When you watch all his Serie A goals you see quickly he could score in any way: deft finishes, tap-ins, bullet headers, long-range efforts smashed home. It was all in his repertoire.
A player of huge stature, the most obvious strength was the power with which he could strike the ball from any distance. He had good control and was excellent in the air. His presence was intimidating and his attitude tenacious. Unlike many great strikers, his dead-ball ability was incredible.
Then there are the subtleties to his game; the things big No9s don’t do. The more you watch Batistuta, the more you see the intelligent movement, the sly actions to gain any advantage, the malleability of his game. He was not just a powerful finisher and good target man.
That entire Arsenal game is a good example of Batistuta’s subtleties. Ask almost anyone and they say he didn’t do much until the goal.
Watch his highlights only and you realise he was always lurking, threatening to do something. Peeling off the back of the defence before being caught offside, drifting wide to find space with or without the ball, constantly harassing the Arsenal backline.
With the goal itself everything spectacular is in the touch to beat Winterburn and the fired finish but there is so much more to it: there’s an ingrained intelligence in the way he sticks wide of the defence and allows Winterburn to retreat, giving himself space to tempt the defender in before accelerating away.
As time goes on it becomes increasingly difficult to see where players from bygone eras would fit into the modern game, but not with Batistuta. In our current era without two strikers he would have no trouble leading the line alone, marrying all his attributes to combine the style of your archetypal number nine and the more agile and less restricted roles of forwards today.
He had the technical ability and speed, the strength and intelligence, to drift wide or deep, to hold the ball up or play merely as a poacher.
One of the greatest strikers we’ve ever seen, one of the most loyal players of all-time, an endearing legend for club and country.
Argentina’s greatest ever pure goalscorer and one of the best strikers in the history of Italian football, there is only one Gabriel Batistuta.
Well, he's not quite exactly a source of a distilled football knowledge. This is the man who had left Milito, Cabiasso and Zanetti out of the Argentinian World Cup squad after Inter's treble season
My favourite rant about Alves said:
Not that I'm doubting Batistuta's quality in any way though.