Serious question, what's the difference between a DoF and a scout?
Might the job be too big for any normal manager, could a Director of Football figure be required?
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I'm not sure I like the idea of the DoF having control over the scouting and youth set ups. It makes a lot of sense in the situation where you regard the manager purely as a coach who is for all intents and purposes disposable (how ever good he might be). We're trying to go for another Ferige like reign I think, realistic or not, so you want the manager to have control over all the things that will eventually lead into his first team years down the line. I don't see why Moyes can't just delegate the running of these things to someone trusted. He is ultimately the one who has to walk the players out onto the pitch and he is the one that'll get all the abuse when we're shit. It should be entirely within his ability to control every aspect of the footballing side of Manchester United should he want to. Like Balu said it's clearly too much work for him to do effectively alone though, so why not simply do what SAF has done for the past few decades and have trusted people working under the manager to handle day to day running of scouting, youth etc, while still ultimately reporting to the manager?
I get the rationale behind a well executed DoF like we see at Bayern on Dortmund but I don't see why that should be viewed as the best or only solution. We've had a set up at United that appears to have worked pretty well, no? I can't imagine shoe horning someone like Blanc or Bruce or whoever in at a level equivalent to Fergie and giving them control over aspects of his football club. Seems unfair to deny Moyes that level of control too at least until it's clear he can't handle it. And if he can't handle it I'd like to think he'd be clever enough to delegate responsibly.
I get the rationale behind a well executed DoF like we see at Bayern on Dortmund but I don't see why that should be viewed as the best or only solution. We've had a set up at United that appears to have worked pretty well, no? I can't imagine shoe horning someone like Blanc or Bruce or whoever in at a level equivalent to Fergie and giving them control over aspects of his football club. Seems unfair to deny Moyes that level of control too at least until it's clear he can't handle it. And if he can't handle it I'd like to think he'd be clever enough to delegate responsibly.
Jaybezia, its seniority, presumably. But that is the essence of what I was saying before. If he reports into the manager he is a scout. If he reports to the board he is more than a scout, he is a scout that is authorised to take actual decisions about signing players. Albeit with some dialogue with the manager. The question is what happens if the manager and the DOF disagree about a certain player? That is why it seems to me healthy that one is explicitly senior to the other, so the manager can say no, I dont want that player for whatever reason, you may like him but I dont want him. If they are on an equal footing Im just not sure how that would work - unless their working relationship is excellent. And that seems to be a bit of a lottery.
Who should be higher up in your opinion? By that I mean if manager doesn't want the player should director be able to sign him regardless if he feels it's going to be beneficial to the club?
No, because the DoF doesn't have to work with, train and then use that player. Nor does the DoF take the flak when that player doesn't fit into the manager's system.
Of course, but what if manager wants a player and the DoF doesn't feel he's necessary? He still signs him up? In that case you don't need a DoF because he cannot make any real decisions himself.
Well, exactly. I don't think you do need one if your manager is willing to take on the decision himself.
How does the system actually work at clubs like Bayern? I assume there's a negotiation process between coach and DoF to make sure that the signings are sensible but who has the final say? So long as the coach trusts the DoF to make good signings I guess it's fine but it sort of puts the long term vision and direction of the club out of the coaches hands I think.
I think manager gives a list of players he wants to DoF who chooses whether or not to sign them etc., they consult but ultimately DoF can make a decision that overrules manager's take. For example I don't think Lewandowski was a Pep signing at all but he had no say in it because people higher up thought Bayern needed him - reasonable as Pep is going to be there for two more seasons and Lewandowski's time will likely exceed that.
This is the thing. It seems to make sense if you view the coaches as short(ish) term, disposable assets who simply work for the club. We don't though, we want a manager who guides the entire club from the ground up (much like Fergie). Within that you'll have all sorts of people who carry out the leg work a DoF would be responsible for, it's just they work from a brief from the manager and ultimately report to him. Seems reasonable.
DoF controls all scoutings aspects of the club, depending on the club he either may veto the players or even more, sign them without talking with the manager, controls the academy and all other aspects of football. Basically the main who is on charge of everything except the first team.
In Bayern I think that Pep can veto the new signings if he doesn't want them. He can aslo propose the board to sign a player they weren't considering (Thiago for example). I am pretty sure that Klopp can do the same.
Of course, the DoF can do the same. Bayern's board convinced Pep to go for Goetze despite he was interested more on Neymar.
Sarni, its a hard question to answer in the sense that I dont think it should come up in the first place, I think there should be a single person with ultimate responsibility with other people there to support him. And I think that person should be the manager. Even if the manager delegates that side of things out - or, as in SAF's case, delegates more of the traditional "managerial" functions and is more interested in strategy. The manager should be able to do it how he wants but should be in control of everything on the football side. But having that kind of overlapping responsibility, without one of them being senior to the other, is a recipe for tension or inefficiency.
Plus, am I comfortable having another important football function reporting into Woodward? Im not sure I am, he hasnt done anything to prove he knows his arse from his elbow when it comes to football, the further removed he is from the football people the better. Let him get on with talking to our prospective partners, something he is clearly highly adept at, and let a single person with a football background oversee everything relating to football.
Plus, am I comfortable having another important football function reporting into Woodward? Im not sure I am, he hasnt done anything to prove he knows his arse from his elbow when it comes to football, the further removed he is from the football people the better. Let him get on with talking to our prospective partners, something he is clearly highly adept at, and let a single person with a football background oversee everything relating to football.
so, no dis-respect but that's effectively a head scout, or scout 'manager' if you will... just seemed a very elaborate title, I'd personally want this position filled by someone like Quieroz or someone who has connections to a lot of players..
I think delegating roles that a DoF would undertake is a great idea but I still think he should work under the manager.
Scout doesn't control the academy, how the young players should be trained/play and doesn't sign players for the club. Also, in many cases the DoF even choses (or proposes) the manager.
Which will make the main reason why DoF exist in the first place, completely pointless.
You either have a DoF which is indipendend of manager (like Barca, Bayern, BVB etc) or you don't have a DoF at all and go with our (and most of the other English clubs) model.
We obvious do do this though. The notion that Moyes is literally handling every minute detail of the entire club is daft. He's the boss, he gets people to do stuff for him.
The DoF isn't really independent of the manager. He may be the superior of him, but in theory both work as a team, because it is in the best interest of the club to sign players that the manager can make use of. And while the first person to get fired will always be the manager the DoF will get the axe too if he burns too much money, so he himself has a strong incentive to make things work with the manager. At least that's how it is in Germany.
Yes, indipendent wasn't a good term. I meant someone who doesn't have to report to manager and whos boss isn't the manager.
One qualm i have concerning the position of DoF is the degree to which they are forced to take responsibility for poor decisions, is it not all too easy for them to throw the manager/coach under the bus and hire somebody else? When does the director become accountable for their decisions and under which circumstances?
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Scouts can't sign peope and have no contro over a manager. Scouts aways report to the manager.
I would assume they report to the board/CEO so responsibility would be known. Would be a poorly run club where the owners don't know who did what or that the info isn't readily available if they demand it since getting play by play updates is a bit much.
Do we need to re-assess our needs for a director of football ? How many of us are convinced that Moyesy is the man to trust completely in terms of re-shaping the team ? I have serious concerns with our squad for next season being even weaker than what we have now. Fabio is gone,the quartet of Vidic, Evra, Rio and Anderson (thankfully) will join him through the exit door. The likes of Nani, Kagawa, Hernandez, Zaha have been marginalised by current management and may look to move. RVP looks increasingly uncomfortable and disinterested . Even the future of some integral players like Rafael is being brought into question.
What if our alleged transfer targets don't want to join us once we finish out of CL spots. What happens if Moyesy and Woody spend the whole window on a wild goose chase after Reus, Kroos, Vidal and other unrealistic targets. We must also bear in mind that we have had difficulty luring these kind players in even with the charm of Fergie and being Champions of England. The summer transfer window will be extremely competitive with it being a World Cup year. What happens if miss out on our primary targets and end up panic buying for below par players. Worse case scenario we decide we won't buy until the right players are available or the seller clubs aren't letting them leave, as we did in the winter window.
Our squad could possibly end up looking like this :
De Gea, Lindegaard, Amos
Coleman, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Buttner
Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley, Fellaini
Mata, Januzaj, Young, Valencia
Rooney, Van Persie, Welbeck
Most of us think that things will improve from now as Moyesy gets used to the job. What if the worst is yet to come ? We already messed up the biggest transition in our history with Gill going out the same time Fergie did and the whole backroom staff ripped to shreds. Now Moyesy is having to coach the players, manage the daily running of the club, handle the media, scout for targets, meet up with agents. The man is floundering and dazed by the stature of the club and could do with a helping hand. A DOF would ease some of his workload and endure that we chalk up feasible targets and the methods for signing them. He could also act as an auditor and if there are indications that Moyesy is not up to the job, we could limit the damage him spending 100 maybe 150 million could do an any future managerial prospects.
What if our alleged transfer targets don't want to join us once we finish out of CL spots. What happens if Moyesy and Woody spend the whole window on a wild goose chase after Reus, Kroos, Vidal and other unrealistic targets. We must also bear in mind that we have had difficulty luring these kind players in even with the charm of Fergie and being Champions of England. The summer transfer window will be extremely competitive with it being a World Cup year. What happens if miss out on our primary targets and end up panic buying for below par players. Worse case scenario we decide we won't buy until the right players are available or the seller clubs aren't letting them leave, as we did in the winter window.
Our squad could possibly end up looking like this :
De Gea, Lindegaard, Amos
Coleman, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Buttner
Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley, Fellaini
Mata, Januzaj, Young, Valencia
Rooney, Van Persie, Welbeck
Most of us think that things will improve from now as Moyesy gets used to the job. What if the worst is yet to come ? We already messed up the biggest transition in our history with Gill going out the same time Fergie did and the whole backroom staff ripped to shreds. Now Moyesy is having to coach the players, manage the daily running of the club, handle the media, scout for targets, meet up with agents. The man is floundering and dazed by the stature of the club and could do with a helping hand. A DOF would ease some of his workload and endure that we chalk up feasible targets and the methods for signing them. He could also act as an auditor and if there are indications that Moyesy is not up to the job, we could limit the damage him spending 100 maybe 150 million could do an any future managerial prospects.
The indications are that Moyes will be given carte blanche to do as he wishes with the squad this summer. I don't expect the club to undermine his authority at this stage by bringing in a director or football.
@Mauzindark No-one was convinced Moyes was the man to keep the success going in his first season though rest of your first paragraph is a valid point. There is a big concern about how the squad will look like next season, with a lot of supporters fearing the worse. However, a DoF isn't something Sir Alex would want and it won't be something Moyes desires either. That alone should answer the question with regards to bringing one in.
Regarding your second paragraph and third paragraph, what would happen is we move on, (severely) weakened as a squad, not as first eleven mind you.
Regarding your second paragraph and third paragraph, what would happen is we move on, (severely) weakened as a squad, not as first eleven mind you.
When you put it that way yes such an appointment does seem seem out the question. Guess us supporters have no choice but you fully get behind Moyesy and trust his judgement even if we have to drag our feet while doing it.
Do we? I think that a lot of people are expecting exactly that (our squad getting weakened in the summer because of the sale of some good squad players who'll get replaced by some boring players).
Apologies. Poor choice of words there from me. I meant to say assume instead of think. Fair to say a lot of people backing him are doing exactly that while the man himself has not provided any tangible proof of his aptitude.
I dont think we need a DoF, it's not been a requirement at our club so it's a non starter.
If Moyes goes I could see us bringing in a DoF. Bringing one in over his head would only undermine him further.
As my faith in Moyes has gradually ebbed away Ive found myself a little more open to this, Ive been thinking about it a bit in the last few days and Ive found myself wondering whether, behind the scenes, the board might be looking at this. As Brophs said above, bringing in a DOF would undermine the manager but if we do decide to change managers, it might be an idea to bring in a DOF at the same time.
I have always thought as I argued above that the ideal is for the manager to have complete authority but to delegate effectively to manage his workload. I wonder whether part of Moyes' problem is that he is not as effective a delegator as SAF was, as evidenced by the fact he takes on all the training himself. Fair enough, if that is what he wants to focus on, but it doesnt seem like he is delegating other tasks out either, so maybe he is spreading himself too thinly. Obviously it is impossible to know with any certainty when you are on the outside looking in, but it does seem a plausible explanation.
I still have my doubts about the DOF model but its hard to avoid the feeling that this job is too big for one person to do on their own. If Moyes does stay on next season I hope he addresses that.
I have always thought as I argued above that the ideal is for the manager to have complete authority but to delegate effectively to manage his workload. I wonder whether part of Moyes' problem is that he is not as effective a delegator as SAF was, as evidenced by the fact he takes on all the training himself. Fair enough, if that is what he wants to focus on, but it doesnt seem like he is delegating other tasks out either, so maybe he is spreading himself too thinly. Obviously it is impossible to know with any certainty when you are on the outside looking in, but it does seem a plausible explanation.
I still have my doubts about the DOF model but its hard to avoid the feeling that this job is too big for one person to do on their own. If Moyes does stay on next season I hope he addresses that.
I don't think this job is too big for one person, they are allowed to delegate some responsibilty after all. Whether they choose to or not is up to them, nobody forces the manager to take on too much.
Our problem is that we appear to have given the job to a poor candidate. Give an actual top quality manager the chance and the job would look a lot less overwhelming.
Our problem is that we appear to have given the job to a poor candidate. Give an actual top quality manager the chance and the job would look a lot less overwhelming.
I agree with this on the whole, though I would phrase it in this context that we have given the job to a candidate that appears unwilling or unable to delegate effectively. I mean, he does look like a poor candidate to the honest, but in the context of this thread the point I want to make is not necessarily about his quality but the fact he is taking on too much and is therefore out of his depth. There is another thread about things you want to see throughout the rest of 2014, maybe one of the things I would like to see is Moyes taking that on board and reviewing the whole management structure around him - assuming he stays - finding talented people and giving them more responsibility.
To be fair this season was always going to be a learning curve and if he actually shows he is learning (this would be one way of doing that, better team selections would be another) then that is fair enough and deserves to be rewarded with a bit more time. But he does need to show evidence of learning these lessons.
Ideally if the DoF and manager is on the same page on what kind of football they want to play and have good communication between them, then it could work.
From what we have seen of Moyes so far, I actually think he might be a good DoF and it is the coaching and tactical side where he needs serious help!
Moyes hasn't had to spread himself more thinly since joining United though. He didn't work with a DOF at Everton and I presume he's delegating the other tasks no more or less now than he did then.
As with all new jobs, though, it will take 6-12 months for him to get the run of the place and maximise the efficiency with which he completes all his day to day tasks. Anyone who's ever changed jobs/employer knows that it can all feel overwhelming at first but once you find your feet the exact same workload becomes much easier to handle.
You dont think there is more to do at United than at Everton?
Im trying to think of specifically what that might be. The extra games we play in the CL and the scouting that requires. Er... other things?
Im trying to think of specifically what that might be. The extra games we play in the CL and the scouting that requires. Er... other things?
I was thinking about that as I typed my post.
Not sure there is, really. Same number of teams at the club. Similar sized squads. Maybe more games? Although doesn't the Europa games match the CL numbers?
Of course whole "learning curve" thing also applies to the workload, in absolute terms. Year one at a new club will mean a load of additional tasks. He'll want to spend a bit of extra time on the training pitch, getting to know players. Plus if we accept the squad needs rebuilding, that's a load of extra work right there. Again, this shouldn't mean he's permanently spread too thinly.
Pretty much. I don't like the idea of introducing a DoF but our current structure certainly requires a manger who's comfortable delegating responsibility (and quality staff who are capable of taking on that work load). I'd much prefer to see Moyes adapt to us rather than us drastically changing our structure to suit a manager who may or may not be here in six months.
It seems like Moyes has tried to manage United in exactly the same way he did Everton, even though the step up in scale should probably require him to adapt slightly. Plus the first few years at a club probably require more work anyway, it's quite different to his final years at Everton where everything was fashioned to suit his needs. You'd think this is something he'd learn and could potentially address in the summer but will he? I'm not so sure.
If I could see some signs of Moyes learning or improving then our current position really wouldn't bother me so much and I'd be more than happy to be patient. The lack of progression worries me far more than the actual results.
Of course the United job is far, far bigger in scope than a midsized club like Everton - bizarre that anyone would even argue otherwise!
we know that Fergie was in total control of the footballing side of this club, he took literally decades to build the whole structure in the exact way he wanted (coaching, academy, scouting, sports science etc) - I doubt there are many managers of big clubs nowadays who have as much responsibility as Fergie had, in fact many are really just coaches who pick the team.
So yes I think it is well possible that Moyes is struggling with the size of the task at hand.
To be fair though, wasnt part of the appeal of Moyes that he had a similar deal at Everton? Total control? Some (many) manager are just coaches who pick the team but that doesnt describe Moyes at Everton.
I agree with you (hang on, you agreed with me) there is more work at United in absolute terms. But I was struggling to put my finger on the specifics of what that extra workload might entail. We play more games, so there is more preparation to do for them. Better players might require more one-on-one or specially tailored training, perhaps. Certainly the greater resources of the club would add an additional workload, managing the extra expenditure, more staff, a wider scouting network as I suggested before.
Intuitively it does feel obvious that the workload would be greater at United than Everton.
Of course it's bigger in scope. Nobody is arguing otherwise, so I'm not sure what you find so bizarre. The question is whether or not the day to day duties of managing United will take up more of the manager's time than the day to day duties of running Everton. A lot will depend on the number and competency of the team he has supporting him and how they compare at the two clubs.
The rest of your post is kind of stating the obvious too. Fergie took a long time to get United set up the way he wanted. Which presumably explains why he is so keen to give Moyes as much time as needed.
There's definitely a debate to be had about whether a DoF model is the best way for any modern club to be set up but if that's not the model to be used at United, Moyes would be very well suited to it having run Everton the same way for a decade.