Mateo Kovacic

JPRouve said:
We need both quality depth and first team improvement.

Now these two things can happen with a single transfer if you find a better starter that pushes your current starters deeper in the depth chart. But if there isn't an affordable or sensible target that will improve your first team and depth in a signle move, the next best move is to improve the depth of your midfield by adding players that are at a similar level to your current starters who are good when fit. The third option is to gamble on a younger player that may or may not reach the required level which is not a good option for us in 2023.

The point being that your statement that we need to either go for "one of the best" or a young player and not go for a player that is an improvement on Fred and McTominay is flawed especially when money is scarce. Fred and McTominay played 3600 minutes, if you improve the quality of these 3600 minutes you improve your team, you improve your first team by having a rotation that allows you to deal with suspensions, injuries, fatigue or poor form.

If you don't rate Kovacic and think that he isn't a big improvement on Fred and McTominay than say that, it would be a good argument but make the point that we should only go for one of the best or a young player because that's not sensible, our needs also include adding quality depth.
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I get your point. My view is we have to stick to priorities and that priority should be last.

We get Kovacic once we have done our priority business and see and ‘opportunity’ to benefit off this type of deal.

What we don’t do is get him first and feel we can settle because we got this done. It’s exactly what happened with Eriksen which made us change or players profile and buy Casemiro.

Get the profile of Kovacic signed but the main targets. Not a good opportunity in the market. Get Declan Rice, Caicedo etc. Then once that is done.. if the opportunity still arrives to get a Kovacic, then yeah great get him in.

Not the reverse which is being talked of, get Kovacic and identify we now have a midfielder who can progress the football we can move to another area of the field. Like it or not. We will not get Kovacic and then pursue Declan Rice with the objective we have to get the deal done. You know how this club works.
 
Mainoldo said:
I get your point. My view is we have to stick to priorities and that priority should be last.

We get Kovacic once we have done our priority business and see and ‘opportunity’ to benefit off this type of deal.

What we don’t do is get him first and feel we can settle because we got this done. It’s exactly what happened with Eriksen which made us change or players profile and buy Casemiro.

Get the profile of Kovacic signed but the main targets. Not a good opportunity in the market. Get Declan Rice, Caicedo etc. Then once that is done.. if the opportunity still arrives to get a Kovacic, then yeah great get him in.

Not the reverse which is being talked of, get Kovacic and identify we now have a midfielder who can progress the football we can move to another area of the field. Like it or not. We will not get Kovacic and then pursue Declan Rice with the objective we have to get the deal done. You know how this club works.
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And you only consider priorities within the same position group? Also I don't think that Rice or Caicedo are priorities we need to add premier technicians, it is our biggest downfall.

To me it reads like you are looking at it too simplistically. We absolutely need a starting caliber striker that is the biggest priority because we don't have one when you have done that how much money is left? Who fits with the profile and budget left for the midfield position?

I'm not telling you that we should go for Kovacic, I'm simply telling you that Kovacic is the correct profile if you rate him as close to Eriksen and better than Fred while being cheaper than Rice or Caicedo.
 
Wouldn't mind him, but I'd prefer Lavia - although I understand they are different types of player
 
JPRouve said:
And you only consider priorities within the same position group? Also I don't think that Rice or Caicedo are priorities we need to add premier technicians, it is our biggest downfall.

To me it reads like you are looking at it too simplistically. We absolutely need a starting caliber striker that is the biggest priority because we don't have one when you have done that how much money is left? Who fits with the profile and budget left for the midfield position?

I'm not telling you that we should go for Kovacic, I'm simply telling you that Kovacic is the correct profile if you rate him as close to Eriksen and better than Fred while being cheaper than Rice or Caicedo.
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I get all that. My thing is our midfield is arguable our second biggest priority and then a keeper (for me). So we should also be looking at first choice.

Your example works for me. But in a position like CB.
 
Mainoldo said:
I get all that. My thing is our midfield is arguable our second biggest priority and then a keeper (for me). So we should also be looking at first choice.

Your example works for me. But in a position like CB.
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If you think that midfield is our second biggest priority then someone like Kovacic is more likely. Just look at the price of a premium striker, you don't really think that we are going to put 200m-250m on these two positions this summer?
 
We’re long overdue a Croatian technician at United. Ideally he’d come in for a few years with Mainoo learning and understudying but things don’t usually work out like that.
 
JPRouve said:
He turned 29 last week. He isn't too old for our midfield or any midfield. The question is whether he has the appropriate tactical and technical profile and how much he would cost.
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Disagree.

Case is 31, Fred 30, Erikson 31, Bruno 28. I'm not one of these people against anyone over the age of 25, experience is super valuable.

But the average age of that midfield needs to be lower, or in a few years we'll be in trouble. I'd happily swap Fred for Kovacic if we were likely to bring another younger midfielder in alongside.
 
Mainoldo said:
I get your point. My view is we have to stick to priorities and that priority should be last.

We get Kovacic once we have done our priority business and see and ‘opportunity’ to benefit off this type of deal.

What we don’t do is get him first and feel we can settle because we got this done. It’s exactly what happened with Eriksen which made us change or players profile and buy Casemiro.

Get the profile of Kovacic signed but the main targets. Not a good opportunity in the market. Get Declan Rice, Caicedo etc. Then once that is done.. if the opportunity still arrives to get a Kovacic, then yeah great get him in.

Not the reverse which is being talked of, get Kovacic and identify we now have a midfielder who can progress the football we can move to another area of the field. Like it or not. We will not get Kovacic and then pursue Declan Rice with the objective we have to get the deal done. You know how this club works.
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Hasn't this position been pretty much identified as our main priority, in addition to a striker? There's little to nothing to suggest EtH sees a goalkeeper as a higher priority - indeed the ongoing efforts to re-sign De Gea pretty clearly suggests the opposite.
 
OleGunnar20 said:
Disagree.

Case is 31, Fred 30, Erikson 31, Bruno 28. I'm not one of these people against anyone over the age of 25, experience is super valuable.

But the average age of that midfield needs to be lower, or in a few years we'll be in trouble. I'd happily swap Fred for Kovacic if we were likely to bring another younger midfielder in alongside.
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That's the part that makes little sense to me. What you wrote is not a real thing, it's not a practical thing and it also assumes that we can only bring one player over the next few years. The average age of our midfield has no practical incidence, adding a younger midfielder than the one we have shouldn't make things worse for us in a few years since in 2 years Kovacic will have the same age than Casemiro has this year and nothing prevents us from adding or replacing current midfielders within the next 2 to 3 years, in fact it's something that we should do whether we sign a 29 years old or a 19 years old.

You are essentially limiting your options this summer for no actual gain, present or future.
 
JPRouve said:
We need both quality depth and first team improvement.

Now these two things can happen with a single transfer if you find a better starter that pushes your current starters deeper in the depth chart. But if there isn't an affordable or sensible target that will improve your first team and depth in a signle move, the next best move is to improve the depth of your midfield by adding players that are at a similar level to your current starters who are good when fit. The third option is to gamble on a younger player that may or may not reach the required level which is not a good option for us in 2023.

The point being that your statement that we need to either go for "one of the best" or a young player and not go for a player that is an improvement on Fred and McTominay is flawed especially when money is scarce. Fred and McTominay played 3600 minutes, if you improve the quality of these 3600 minutes you improve your team, you improve your first team by having a rotation that allows you to deal with suspensions, injuries, fatigue or poor form.

If you don't rate Kovacic and think that he isn't a big improvement on Fred and McTominay than say that, it would be a good argument but make the point that we should only go for one of the best or a young player because that's not sensible, our needs also include adding quality depth.
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The ideal purchase IMO would someone who would be our best #8, and also a viable backup at #6. Which probably isn't Kovacic, but then if he's available at a fairly reasonable price, that might work too. I like him as a player.
 
justsomebloke said:
The ideal purchase IMO would someone who would be our best #8, and also a viable backup at #6. Which probably isn't Kovacic, but then if he's available at a fairly reasonable price, that might work too. I like him as a player.
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Agreed but we need to look at targets that are also not the ideal purchase, we need to look at practical purchases that allow us to keep growing. Otherwise I want odegaard, Vinicius, Camavinga, Haaland, Reece James and Maignan this summer.
 
JPRouve said:
Agreed but we need to look at targets that are also not the ideal purchase, we need to look at practical purchases that allow us to keep growing. Otherwise I want odegaard, Vinicius, Camavinga, Haaland, Reece James and Maignan this summer.
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It doesn't necessarily have to be that caliber of player to meet the criteria, it's about finding right player profile. Bearing in mind that if we buy an #8 who can't really play as a #6, then we'll need a separate #6 who would basically be just a backup for Casemiro (because we really can't continue with McTominay in that role, and there is literally no one else). Which would be wasteful. If we're getting someone who's basically just second choice at #8, I don't really see how that progresses us very much.
 
justsomebloke said:
Hasn't this position been pretty much identified as our main priority, in addition to a striker? There's little to nothing to suggest EtH sees a goalkeeper as a higher priority - indeed the ongoing efforts to re-sign De Gea pretty clearly suggests the opposite.
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I said it was second after striker so I don’t get what you mean. I said Kovacic himself should be a lower priority as there are better players out there who we should be trying to get. He is squad depth as far as I’m concerned.
 
justsomebloke said:
It doesn't necessarily have to be that caliber of player to meet the criteria, it's about finding right player profile. Bearing in mind that if we buy an #8 who can't really play as a #6, then we'll need a separate #6 who would basically be just a backup for Casemiro (because we really can't continue with McTominay in that role, and there is literally no one else). Which would be wasteful. If we're getting someone who's basically just second choice at #8, I don't really see how that progresses us very much.
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The point that I made was about age, it's not about Kovacic itself. I disagree with the idea that Kovacic shouldn't be a target because he is too old. I can understand the idea that you prefer a more defensive player that can cover for Casemiro but that player could easily be 29 years old, that player could even be 30 years old Brozovic and we would be a better team for the at least the next 12 months.

And I disagree with the idea of it being a waste because our biggest issue has been on the ball, it has been when we needed to move the ball through midfield either because we were without Casemiro-Eriksen or because they were unfit. We need to add technicians in that midfield if we want to be able to play anything close to decent Football more than once in 10 days. Also a "second" choice #8 allow us to use Eriksen in place of Bruno from time to time.
 
JPRouve said:
The point that I made was about age, it's not about Kovacic itself. I disagree with the idea that Kovacic shouldn't be a target because he is too old. I can understand the idea that you prefer a more defensive player that can cover for Casemiro but that player could easily be 29 years old, that player could even be 30 years old Brozovic and we would be a better team for the at least the next 12 months.

And I disagree with the idea of it being a waste because our biggest issue has been on the ball, it has been when we needed to move the ball through midfield either because we were without Casemiro-Eriksen or because they were unfit. We need to add technicians in that midfield if we want to be able to play anything close to decent Football more than once in 10 days. Also a "second" choice #8 allow us to use Eriksen in place of Bruno from time to time.
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I mean it would be wasteful to get an #8 and additionally a #6 who'd be only a backup, compared to getting a midfielder who could do both. Don't disagree with you on age. But I do think we need something more than a second-choice player if we're investing serious resources in someone who's primarily an #8.
 
Mainoldo said:
I said it was second after striker so I don’t get what you mean. I said Kovacic himself should be a lower priority as there are better players out there who we should be trying to get. He is squad depth as far as I’m concerned.
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Right, sorry, got that wrong.
 
justsomebloke said:
I mean it would be wasteful to get an #8 and additionally a #6 who'd be only a backup, compared to getting a midfielder who could do both. Don't disagree with you on age. But I do think we need something more than a second-choice player if we're investing serious resources in someone who's primarily an #8.
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I see. We agree on that but players that are actually good as an #8 and #6 aren't common, especially if you are looking at improving the technical level of your team.
 
JPRouve said:
I see. We agree on that but players that are actually good as an #8 and #6 aren't common, especially if you are looking at improving the technical level of your team.
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No, I know. Caicedo is a name that springs to mind. I suppose you could think of Declan Rice as potentially that kind of player too, although not from the technical viewpoint.
 
justsomebloke said:
No, I know. Caicedo is a name that springs to mind. I suppose you could think of Declan Rice as potentially that kind of player too, although not from the technical viewpoint.
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I rate neither of them from a technical standpoint. I suspect that we stagnate badly with both of them unless we bring an other more skilled player.
 
JPRouve said:
That's the part that makes little sense to me. What you wrote is not a real thing, it's not a practical thing and it also assumes that we can only bring one player over the next few years. The average age of our midfield has no practical incidence, adding a younger midfielder than the one we have shouldn't make things worse for us in a few years since in 2 years Kovacic will have the same age than Casemiro has this year and nothing prevents us from adding or replacing current midfielders within the next 2 to 3 years, in fact it's something that we should do whether we sign a 29 years old or a 19 years old.

You are essentially limiting your options this summer for no actual gain, present or future.
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I see, so you see no value is maintaining the squads average age at lower than 29? Again I'd have to disagree.

Of course we can bring in more than one player per year, but we will also need to cover more than one position, hence a younger midfield (assuming the players do well) buys you more breathing room when it comes to upgrading other positions. Seems pretty common sense to me, but fair enough if you see it differently.

Of course if there's nobody younger and attainable, who can offer what Kovacic would then sure, we should go ahead and get him. He's certainly an improvement on McTom & Fred in my eyes.

I think we should be able to find a better, younger player however, with a little imagination.
 
OleGunnar20 said:
I see, so you see no value is maintaining the squads average age at lower than 29? Again I'd have to disagree.

Of course we can bring in more than one player per year, but we will also need to cover more than one position, hence a younger midfield (assuming the players do well) buys you more breathing room when it comes to upgrading other positions. Seems pretty common sense to me, but fair enough if you see it differently.

Of course if there's nobody younger and attainable, who can offer what Kovacic would then sure, we should go ahead and get him. He's certainly an improvement on McTom & Fred in my eyes.

I think we should be able to find a better, younger player however, with a little imagination.
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The squad average isn't 29 and what is the value? Why do you disagree?

United's current average age is 26.6 years old which roughly in the middle of the PL. Most of the better teams are older, Arsenal being the exception this season.
 
Mainoldo said:
I get your point. My view is we have to stick to priorities and that priority should be last.

We get Kovacic once we have done our priority business and see and ‘opportunity’ to benefit off this type of deal.

What we don’t do is get him first and feel we can settle because we got this done. It’s exactly what happened with Eriksen which made us change or players profile and buy Casemiro.

Get the profile of Kovacic signed but the main targets. Not a good opportunity in the market. Get Declan Rice, Caicedo etc. Then once that is done.. if the opportunity still arrives to get a Kovacic, then yeah great get him in.

Not the reverse which is being talked of, get Kovacic and identify we now have a midfielder who can progress the football we can move to another area of the field. Like it or not. We will not get Kovacic and then pursue Declan Rice with the objective we have to get the deal done. You know how this club works.
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That is exactly how the club should be thinking
 
JPRouve said:
The squad average isn't 29 and what is the value? Why do you disagree?

United's current average age is 26.6 years old which roughly in the middle of the PL. Most of the better teams are older, Arsenal being the exception this season.
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The value in having a younger average age is self explanatory no? Usually less injury prone, less need for rest, and more flexibility in the market overall (less players reaching the end of their careers at the same time, needing replacing).

Anyway I don't want to derail the thread. Agree to disagree on Kovacic being the right signing for our midfield.
 
OleGunnar20 said:
The value in having a younger average age is self explanatory no? Usually less injury prone, less need for rest, and more flexibility in the market overall (less players reaching the end of their careers at the same time, needing replacing).

Anyway I don't want to derail the thread. Agree to disagree on Kovacic being the right signing for our midfield.
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Not it's not because younger teams are generally worse.Also the averages between teams aren't actually that big, there is also no corrolation with any of the things you mentioned.
 
JPRouve said:
I rate neither of them from a technical standpoint. I suspect that we stagnate badly with both of them unless we bring an other more skilled player.
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Who'd be your candidates for a combined #8/reserve #6 with the required technical level?
 
Exactly who I want us to go for.
Similar ball carrying skills to FDJ, who I again don't think will leave Barca.
 
justsomebloke said:
Who'd be your candidates for a combined #8/reserve #6 with the required technical level?
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I have no realistic idea. I don't see anyone that has that profile outside of maybe Kimmich and Camavinga but the latter hasn't even proved that.
 
In my opinion we shouldn't buy him

a- he's 29. That in itself isn't too much of a problem but when you consider our midfield (McT 26, Fred 30, Casemiro 31, Bruno 28, Eriksen 31) then it is. We can't have 1-2 seasons were we literally have to replace the entire CM.

b- he's talented but he's not WC. We don't need more bodies in or players who would slightly improve our CM.
 
If you're trying to build a top team you need 1-2 "rocks" in central midfield that will be mainstays of the starting XI for a long time. These guys give you stability in the teamsheet, provide tactical solutions and leadership in tough situations, etc. Pretty much every PL side that has enjoyed a 4-5 year stretch of top play over the last 20-25 years has had players like this and pretty much every one has done it by finding players in the 21-27 year old bracket that can grow into this kind of role and then keep it for a while because they're at the right age to do so. Klopp bought Fabinho at 24 and Wijnaldum at 25. Guardiola inherited great midfielders but also bought Gundogan at 24 and Rodri at 23. Fergie bought a 21-year-old Roy Keane to combine with a young Scholes as the midfield rocks for his side for over a decade. Later, he bought a 25-year-old Carrick and then a 26-year-old Hargreaves (even if that didn't quite work out) to join Scholes as midfield mainstays of his mid-late 2000s side. Wenger's first act at Arsenal was to bring in a 20-year-old Vieira and he built his entire Arsenal project around him. At his first Chelsea team, Mourinho inherited a 25 year old Lampard and then bought 23 year old Essien. On his second go round he quickly bought 24-year-old Matic and then 27-year-old Fabregas and once he left Chelsea extended the longevity of that side by buying 25-year-old Kante. Arteta is trying to emulate those sides and has bought Odegaard at 22, Partey at 27, and now hopes to buy 24-year-old Rice.

There's nothing wrong at all with adding an older head into the midfield mix, especially a truly top player like Casemiro or Makelele, but in the end you can't build a new side for the long term by buying only age 29-31 midfielders. Those players are going to see their level slide quickly or at best enter a phase where they can only play maybe 20 PL matches at a top level due to injury or difficulty sustaining form. United should be looking for their rock for the next 5-6 years, one that will allow Eriksen and Casemiro to ease into more rotational roles in the same way that Scholes became a more rotational player at a similar age. Kovacic is already a part-timer himself, having started only 16 matches the last couple years, and at 29 that's unlikely to get better.
 
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Wish United would've looked at him instead of Mount.

He'll be a quality Gundogan replacement for them
 
Fair enough. I'm not arsed about him anymore. Had preferred for him to go abroad but whatever.
 
Im going to miss him, beautiful footballer.
 
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