Watched the first 2 episodes and personally i'm enjoying it more than The Pacific. The acting is fine to me, Buck/Bucky are very different personalities from the other characters in BoB/Pacific and that works. No point trying to rehash previous characters and although Austin Butler may come across as dull and boring, I think that's pretty much the character. The character is by the book, composed, calm and quiet.
Television Masters of the Air (Apple TV series) - premieres January 26, 2024
- Thread starter RedDevilQuebecois
- Start date
Caught up. I'm enjoying it, the combat sequences are tense. This isn't like BoB or Pacific where they focus on a select group of people, when you've got a plane of 10 people then clearly you can't follow everyone. So either you have to make the decision to focus on simply one plane of men or do as the show has done and scattergun it by trying to shift focus onto several different planes. Just like in BoB a show I have watched countless times, it takes a little time to start to recognize the men, even harder in this show as they have face masks on during the combat. Even harder still when the cast start being killed.
On one hand you could remove the face masks and be able to see the actors a little easier, but that would take away from the attention to detail that they're clearly striving for. Hollywood films have gone that route and they ended up being awful, so i'm happy enough with that direction. The attention to detail thus far has been impressive.
Episode 3 in particular was the standout so far, brutal at times. Episode 4 felt a bit more like that episode in Pacific where Leckie heads over to Australia. It's the civilian viewpoint of what's happening, granted it's been done before many times before in media but if you had missions every episode then you'd eventually get bored of it. Just like in BoB you'd have lulls of action, it's needed. But was for me the weakest of the episodes.
The time jump is required though, they've maybe done it an episode too soon, but if they want to follow it all throughout the war then it's needed. BoB did a lot of time jumps as did the Pacific, it's part of the deal and given the history of the 100th very much needed.
On one hand you could remove the face masks and be able to see the actors a little easier, but that would take away from the attention to detail that they're clearly striving for. Hollywood films have gone that route and they ended up being awful, so i'm happy enough with that direction. The attention to detail thus far has been impressive.
Episode 3 in particular was the standout so far, brutal at times. Episode 4 felt a bit more like that episode in Pacific where Leckie heads over to Australia. It's the civilian viewpoint of what's happening, granted it's been done before many times before in media but if you had missions every episode then you'd eventually get bored of it. Just like in BoB you'd have lulls of action, it's needed. But was for me the weakest of the episodes.
The time jump is required though, they've maybe done it an episode too soon, but if they want to follow it all throughout the war then it's needed. BoB did a lot of time jumps as did the Pacific, it's part of the deal and given the history of the 100th very much needed.
Really good episode. Intense, but managed not to feel too confusing.
The much dreaded raid on Münster...
To think that whatever was left of the 100th BG could only take off with 18 bombers before 5 had to abort because of mechanical issues and then 12 of the remaining 13 were shot down, that must have been demoralizing. Any viewer could feel that those crews hit rock bottom after that disaster of a mission.
Bucky started to change in his views about how bombers should hit the enemy by the end of episode 4 after what he saw in London as a result of German bombing raids. We could see Bucky express his changing views quite vocally in episode 5 as well. I wonder how that mindset will carry on to Rosenthal's crew (the newbies who survived Münster) and those who will join the group later.
Whoever was the USAAF general who thought that sending B-17s time and time again in broad daylight and without proper fighter escort (because the P-47's range was too limited) hopefully went down in history as one of the very worst generals in US history.
To think that whatever was left of the 100th BG could only take off with 18 bombers before 5 had to abort because of mechanical issues and then 12 of the remaining 13 were shot down, that must have been demoralizing. Any viewer could feel that those crews hit rock bottom after that disaster of a mission.
Bucky started to change in his views about how bombers should hit the enemy by the end of episode 4 after what he saw in London as a result of German bombing raids. We could see Bucky express his changing views quite vocally in episode 5 as well. I wonder how that mindset will carry on to Rosenthal's crew (the newbies who survived Münster) and those who will join the group later.
Whoever was the USAAF general who thought that sending B-17s time and time again in broad daylight and without proper fighter escort (because the P-47's range was too limited) hopefully went down in history as one of the very worst generals in US history.
Agreed. I'm surprised they're not naming and shaming him.
And it's weird that it wasn't too much after this that we (USA) changed our tune and had no qualms about nuking two entire cities, after sending dozens of bombers crews to their graves because we wanted only precision bombing.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Really good episode.
Seems crazy that they sent these 10 man crew b17s over Germany and always pulled their escorts before the flak, and then left them all to fend for themselves over enemy territory and all the way back.
The aerial equivalent of the slow walk towards the enemy trench with bayonets drawn.
The aerial equivalent of the slow walk towards the enemy trench with bayonets drawn.
Worst jobs in history:
- WWII pilot
- WWI Infantryman
- Server at an American chain restaurant
The fighters at that time didn't have the fuel range to fly with the B17s all the way.
I think the real issue which was semi highlighted in this episode was the disastrous decision to fly every single day. The show did a decent job showing them on the edge of breaking pre mission. One of the shots of the show for me was watching Rosie flying the last B17 and watching all the debris from their own planes and German fighters falling around them. Horrific shot. Personally that episode is right up their with Bastogne in BoB. What an episode.
Very good! The highest ranked episode on imdb thus far with 8.9 as of today.
It's really hit its stride now. These last two episodes have been fantastic. Love the story telling in episode 6, despite being a lack of action it was still haunting. The final scene too... (don't spoil) 
It's really hit its stride now. These last two episodes have been fantastic. Love the story telling in episode 6, despite being a lack of action it was still haunting. The final scene too... (don't spoil)
Funnily saying that about the final scene is basically a spoiler, since everyone will know what you mean by the time they get to it. But if someone hasn't watched the last episode they shouldn't be reading the thread anyway, so go right ahead.
Nah, that's vague enough it could mean anything.
It could mean anything until you're watching the episode and he's going around shouting one specific person's name. It's not one of those "ruin it advance" things, but it could ruin the moment. But again, if you're reading a thread about a show you haven't seen you deserve to have your moments ruined.
Oh to be fair I forgot that he was shouting that.
Also to be fair they might think he's shouting his own name, as I just now had to google to remember which one was Buck and which one was Bucky.
It's really hit its stride now. These last two episodes have been fantastic. Love the story telling in episode 6, despite being a lack of action it was still haunting. The final scene too... (don't spoil)
Totally agree. I especially enjoyed the last episode - the characters feel more familiar and real by now.
And Subaltern Westgate was just an absolute treasure!
Another great episode. Getting better and better.
It’s also a complete misconception that daylight bombing was actually “precision” in any regard. The show seems to show the effects of British bombing at night hitting civilians, but the reality is that due to the defensive formations B17s had to fly, the speeds, cloud cover, smoke cover etc, daylight “precision” bombing was barely more accurate than night time bombing. In fact, due to the bomber formations, in order for the daylight bombers to hit their precision targets (actually an area 1,000ft in diameter), the bomber group would have to drop approximately 684 bombs for two to hit their target. That means 682 bombs landed outside the target zone on homes, and other infrastructure.
The much heralded Norden bombsight was tremendously accurate under ideal, theoretical conditions, but in the real world, offered little to no advantage over the British or German bombsights; and in reality proved no more accurate.
Daylight “precision” bombing was barely more accurate than nighttime bombing, and the losses of bomber crews and aircraft were unsustainably high. Approximately 23:1 in terms of aircrew lost vs enemy fighter aircrew. The reality of mainland European weather meant that there was extensive cloud cover a lot of the time anyway, and the Norden bombsight wasn’t able to see through it until much later in the war. When there wasn’t cloud cover, the Germans would use smoke cover, which was just as effective.
This all mesnt that the visibility of daylight raids on specific targets was comparable to nighttime raids. It somewhat annoys me that none of that is shown in the show. There’s the impression of this huge technological advantage - which didn’t exist - and of the better accuracy and morality of day time raids - which also just wasn’t the case. When viewed through a historically accurate context, it beggars belief that they persisted with daytime raids for so long.
In fact, It wasn’t until much later, with the introduction of the long range Mustang fighter, that the USAF were able to sustainably fly daylight raids. And at that point, so were other allied forces; not least because of general air superiority over mainland Europe.
To be perfectly honest, knowing the facts about this, makes the history of the 100th incredibly tragic. And from an executive command perspective, downright shameful and/or incompetent. Yet, being an American production, we don’t get those questions asked. Instead we are presented with heroism (which no doubt the actual crews were), rather than the failure the strategy was; and for good measure show just how stuck up and terrible the British were to their humble and heroic cousins.
That last part is a bit sickening, because while there was some general upset amongst British servicemen at Americans shagging their women while they were away, the general spirit between Brits and Americans during the war, was great. Aside from a ton of general reading on the subject, my source for that is my grandparents and great aunts and uncles, all of whom fought in the war, or lived through it. Or in the case of my grandfather, was an undercover intelligence operative, who spent significant time behind enemy lines. At various times they all went to pains to stress to me how much love and respect they - and all their contemporaries - felt for the American servicemen fighting by their side. It would be nice if they could present a more balanced view of that relationship.
That aside, I think in a show about bombing, it would also be good to show that the British people had been on the receiving end of the blitz for several years, which certainly swayed public sympathy away from preventing collateral damage. These bomber groups in the show are showing up four years into the war, when Britain has been bombed to fecking pieces and has been launching its own raids for quite some time.
The first half of the show was just plain fecking shit from a story telling and acting perspective. These last two episodes (5 and 6 - I’m half way through 6), have been much better - even if I don’t like the endless poncing about on weekend leave to bang polish birds or go to stately homes full of snobby Brits. But the tension and action has been much better at least.
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Wow, that’s a great post, thank you for taking the time to write it.
I can add that the first time I was in England the English went to great lengths to tell me the US had almost no part in fighting or winning the war, that the war was nearly won already, and that the English didn’t need the US help in the first place. One might think they were winding me up, but it was multiple people who didn’t even know each other. I did t know about the 100th at the time but when I mentioned things like Normandy, they used that as another example of how stupid Americans were. It got really old, really fast. Think about it now, what would it take for the US to send millions of soldiers to help someone else’s fight. Not just materiel and logistics, but actual hundreds of thousands of people dying. 420,000 killed and 600,000 wounded. Those numbers are nothing compared to Russia or to basically any country in Europe, I get it, but the US thought the cause merited a draft and all that death. I don’t know if people were just fecking with me or not but I think it’s a really shitty way to try and wind someone up if that was the case. The weirdest part was how Anglophilic me and my friends were: we wanted to love the English and all they could do was try and shit on us.
Only the English did this. The Irish, Welsh, and Scottish people were lovely. My grandfather was born and raised in London and left as soon as he could.
Many Brits were, and indeed are, delusional about how screwed we would have been without US assistance before and after they officially entered the war. A very similar delusional mind-set to the one that caused Brexit.
That’s a generational thing. Born out of our ill deserved sense of superiority. People of my grandfathers generation would never say that. I say this because I said something similiar to what you heard, when I was about 18 and all the elders in my family set me straight. My grandfather said something like “No, I won’t hear a word of it. They fought and died on the beaches shoulder to shoulder with our boys. We couldn’t have done it without them.”
It’s only later generations attempting to revise history by claiming Britain could’ve gone it alone, mainly because we’ve seen Britain’s place on the world stage completely usurped by the US and to be fair, modern day Americans can be very “the greatest country in the world”. So it’s just a reaction to that, and defensiveness born out of the reality that we aren’t the significant player we once were. People from that WW2 generation wouldn’t hear of it though.
British people have this inherent belief that they are superior to everyone else, and I say that with a sense of shame. Americans are always so effusively complimentary of the English, and I should know - I’ve lived stateside for 21 years now. There’s a way to embrace that and be gracious about it; and then there are those little Englanders, who have such an inferiority complex, that they have to draw on the legacies of previous generations to establish that positioning of superiority. These are the same people who are the core of the rot in modern British society. Those who shot themselves, and everyone around them, in the foot, by voting to leave the EU. That mentality that Britain is great and should go it alone, while everyone else is working together and building alliances. Wankers.
A lot of Americans, I find, go abroad and are chastised for the sins of their most ignorant countrymen. People don’t stop to think that that is not all Americans. You know what I’m talking about….the Americans that go on about it being the greatest country in the world, ram the national anthem down your throat at every turn, chant USA! At every turn.
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And many or most Americans are terrible abroad, I also saw that firsthand. I generally pretended not to speak English when I heard Americans. But despite the ugly American stereotype, I think Europeans forget that it’s really expensive for us to visit Europe and when we first get there it is the culmination of a dream we’ve had for decades: Everything is amazing and maybe our big dumb enthusiasm is a lot to take. When I was running around Dumfries people couldn’t believe I had spent a ton of money to be there. For me, even having the most banal conversation with someone (particularly female) who had a Scottish or Irish accent was unbelievable. Americans don’t travel well but I think we’re mostly harmless.
True Detective S1!
what is that from?
Hold our collective beer. Brits on cheap package tours abroad are indescribably embarrassing and shit.
I like it after 4 episodes. Maybe the lowered expectations, due to this thread, helped.
I think the bold part is pretty accurate. Most of us live surrounded by strip malls and shops that were built in the 1970's or newer so going to places in Europe where buildings can be so old is shocking. I still can't get over the beehive huts near Dingle when we were in Ireland.
It gets better. It actually quite like it, it's good bordering on great for me.
I've enjoyed it all the way through, arguably more than the Pacific.
Thanks, good to know. I will certainly finish the season.
Yes, I'd put this above The Pacific too.
I wouldn't have it anywhere close to The Pacific, which, although flawed, was an incredible depiction of how brutal the Pacific theatre was - with some of the best war battles I've ever seen.
This is just a CGI fest and it's impossible to actually follow who the characters are in the air battles. It took me until like episode six to realise Barry Keoghan's character had died 3 episodes ago
Also the characters are a bit crap, apart from the navigator who is quite decent.
This is just a CGI fest and it's impossible to actually follow who the characters are in the air battles. It took me until like episode six to realise Barry Keoghan's character had died 3 episodes ago
Also the characters are a bit crap, apart from the navigator who is quite decent.
Really enjoying this. The CGI is a little crap, and Dunkirk still remains the best cinematic depiction of WW2 air combat for me, but the show does capture the terror and dread of being an airman during the war pretty well. As for losing track of characters, it was the same for me with BoB and the Pacific, but you tend to finally distinguish the different shades of mustaches towards the end
The show has actually got me to hop back on Il-2 sturmovik again and living out my fantasies as a P-51 pilot
The show has actually got me to hop back on Il-2 sturmovik again and living out my fantasies as a P-51 pilot
Been thinking about getting into this but Austin Butler to me is about as annoying as Millie Bobby Brown (better talent seems to be displaced bc of em/epitome of Hollywood popularity contests). How present is he in this show?
He is a main character but not too heavy screen time.
It's an ensemble, but he's one of them.
I don't like him either, and thankfully I wouldn't say he's exactly front and centre. There's even a few episodes of him not being present. I'd say Nate Mann, Callum Turner and Anthony Boyle are the more prevalent characters that share the most screentime.
Fairly present as one of the main characters but it’s a large ensemble and it’s shared across at least 4/5/6 “main” characters. So not too heavily focused.