Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

[stevoc]

It's true of all comic book movies or "franchise" action movies(James Bond for instance), but there used to be original action/adventure movies as well. In those movies you at least get something fresh and you don't really know what will happen next. Sure, happy endings are almost guaranteed even in originals. But with these comic book movies you are guaranteed a happy ending, which completely removes all real stakes.

Well yeah but for the sake of fairness the hero's didn't really win at the end of infinity war. It was hardly a happy ending to that particular movie.

All in it's a very strange criticism to throw at a super hero movie. They're kids movies for feck sake so of course the hero's win. Surely that's the point of them isnt it?

So kids get to watch their favourite hero beat the bad guy. They're not produced to subvert the expectations of adult cinephiles.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Also, I think the difference between these Marvel movies and something like, say, James Bond, is that while they both have protagonists that basically don’t (or can’t) die, with James Bond it’s very much a wink and a nod. You know he isn’t going to die, they know he isn’t going to die, so we’re on the same page. Part of the reason why so many enjoy them (and I don’t mind them - not a big fan) is thinking “well, how is he going to get out of this one”. You know full well he’s going to, it's just a matter of watching him do it. And again, it’s all very corny and tongue in cheek. They have changed that slightly with the modern ones and tried to introduce some peril and make it more serious, etc.(i think he does “technically” die in Casino Royale), but still - it’s James Bond.

But with Marvel, they ALWAYS try and up the peril. Like this is the worst thing that could possibly happen. There’s no way we’re getting out of this. The world is going to end and that’s that, folks. We’re fecked, there’s no way - oh, we won. And then the next movie in the franchise. Well, this is it now. You thought it was bad before, but this truly is the end. No joke, we’re definitely - oh, we won again. And on and on it goes. When you combine that with the fact that there's been about 500 Marvel movies in the last decade, it's easy to see why there's a lot of fatigue and criticism of the formula.

Yeah that's my biggest issue with them from a movie perspective. They lack tension and it feels like you know exactly what's going to happen before it does.

Still, I don't think it matters much to the people who like them as they seem to enjoy lots of flashing colours and their fave characters. No judgement about that.

 

[duffer]

I've actually watched many of these movies just because I enjoyed going to the cinema all the time and, well, you can't really escape them. The only one I watched and found really interesting in terms of what they did with it was Iron Man 3. I loved what they did with the Ben Kingsley character. The film wasn't great, to be fair, but I liked that aspect of it.

I then found out that all the Marvel heads hated that film and it's one of the most disliked movies in the franchise. Or at least it's incredibly divisive, which says a lot.

"The Mandarin" as a character in the comics had a ton of potential to be a good MCU baddie but it seemed to me that they just chucked it away for a gag.

Apparently he returns in the Shang-Chi film (Ben Kingsley as that character) so I'm interested to see what they do with him.

 

[duffer]

Yeah that's my biggest issue with them from a movie perspective. They lack tension and it feels like you know exactly what's going to happen before it does.

Still, I don't think it matters much to the people who like them as they seem to just enjoy watching lots of flashing colours and their fave characters. No judgement about that.

The end of Infinity War has to be the biggest "WTF" moment in cinema for many years. That surprised a lot of people.

With hindsight and the fact that we knew the actors were contracted for more films did take away from it but lets be honest, that's always going to be the case. Death is more or less meaningless in comics.

 

[Oldyella]

"The Mandarin" as a character in the comics had a ton of potential to be a good MCU baddie but it seemed to me that they just chucked it away for a gag.

Apparently he returns in the Shang-Chi film (Ben Kingsley as that character) so I'm interested to see what they do with him.

It was a fun twist but was a waste of Ben Kingsley, who could have made a great villain. I know Iron Man 3 divides fans but talking about directors work shining through, that film is pure Shane Black.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Yeah that's my biggest issue with them from a movie perspective. They lack tension and it feels like you know exactly what's going to happen before it does.

Still, I don't think it matters much to the people who like them as they seem to enjoy lots of flashing colours and their fave characters. No judgement about that.

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily judge the people who watch them (apart from the really unhinged among them). As I said, I've watched quite a few and they're mildly entertaining in a very passive way. Most of them are terrible, though. The junk food analogy is an overused one at this point, but it is very true.

But the criticisms of them are valid and inevitable when they're seemingly taking over media. I just keep waiting for the bottom to fall out of it all, but it's not going to happen anytime soon apparently.

 

[lsd]

Well yeah but for the sake of fairness the hero's didn't really win at the end of infinity war. It was hardly a happy ending to that particular movie.

All in it's a very strange criticism to throw at a super hero movie. They're kids movies for feck sake so of course the hero's win. Surely that's the point of them isnt it?

So kids get to watch their favourite hero beat the bad guy. They're not produced to subvert the expectations of adult cinephiles.

Surely the point is they are kids movies yet there are so many weird adults obsessed with them

 

[BusbyMalone]

"The Mandarin" as a character in the comics had a ton of potential to be a good MCU baddie but it seemed to me that they just chucked it away for a gag.

Apparently he returns in the Shang-Chi film (Ben Kingsley as that character) so I'm interested to see what they do with him.

See, that's probably one of the reasons why i liked it so much becuase i have no relationship with the comics at all. To me, it was just a bold and interesting move.

 

[Vidyoyo]

The end of Infinity War has to be the biggest "WTF" moment in cinema for many years. That surprised a lot of people.

With hindsight and the fact that we knew the actors were contracted for more films did take away from it but lets be honest, that's always going to be the case. Death is more or less meaningless in comics.

Ah fair. I haven't seen that one but IIRC it was one of the better praised ones.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily judge the people who watch them (apart from the really unhinged among them). As I said, I've watched quite a few and they're mildly entertaining in a very passive way. Most of them are terrible, though. The junk food analogy is an overused one at this point, but it is very true.

But the criticisms of them are valid and inevitable when they're seemingly taking over media. I just keep waiting for the bottom to fall out of it all, but it's not going to happen anytime soon apparently.

Yeah they are hard to avoid. I'll also admit to being slightly biased against them because I dated a girl once who wanted to go and watch a double-bill of both Guardians of the Galaxy movie. I said yeah sure because I had no preconceptions about MCU movies and I like going to the cinema to watch anything. Unfortunately, it was honestly the most boring 4 hours I think I've ever spent and still get Vietnam-style flashbacks thinking about all the hollering and wooping I saw that evening.

Changes a man, you know.

 

[duffer]

See, that's probably one of the reasons why i liked it so much becuase i have no relationship with the comics at all. To me, it was just a bold and interesting move.

It was a bold move for sure but having a character like The Mandarin and giving that role to an actor like Ben Kingsley and ending up with a few minutes of comic relief seems like a ridiculous wasted opportunity.

Imagine that you signed Ronaldo and he ended up not playing upfront but instead donning the Fred The Red suit to entertain the kids on matchdays. That would also be a "bold and interesting move" but after 1 minute of laughing you'd think "what the actual feck were they doing"?

This is what Sir Ben should've said to that script...

 

[stevoc]

Surely the point is they are kids movies yet there are so many weird adults obsessed with them

Yeah but the weird adults obsessed with loving them?

Or the weird adults that are obsessed with hating on them?

 

[BusbyMalone]

It was a bold move for sure but having a character like The Mandarin and giving that role to an actor like Ben Kingsley and ending up with a few minutes of comic relief seems like a ridiculous wasted opportunity.

Imagine that you signed Ronaldo and he ended up not playing upfront but instead donning the Fred The Red suit to entertain the kids on matchdays. That would also be a "bold and interesting move" but after 1 minute of laughing you'd think "what the actual feck were they doing"?

This is what Sir Ben should've said to that script...

Interesting analogy...not sure I agree with it necessarily!

See, the fact that it WAS Ben Kingsley was why I loved it. Huge actor, made out to be the big bad guy and main antagonist and they just went "nah"

I just loved that. Clearly, not for everyone.

 

[duffer]

Interesting analogy...not sure I agree with it necessarily!

See, the fact that it WAS Ben Kingsley was why I loved it. Huge actor, made out to be the big bad guy and main antagonist and they just went "nah"

I just loved that. Clearly, not for everyone.

I get that the bait and switch was fun, I kinda agree in theory.

If we hadn't ended up with the Mike from Neighbours as the big baddie of the film, I might not hate the decision so much.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Yeah they are hard to avoid. I'll also admit to being slightly biased against them because I dated a girl once who wanted to go and watch a double-bill of both Guardians of the Galaxy movie. I said yeah sure because I had no preconceptions about MCU movies and I like going to the cinema to watch anything. Unfortunately, it was honestly the most boring 4 hours I think I've ever spent and still get Vietnam-style flashbacks thinking about all the hollering and wooping I saw that evening.

Changes a man, you know.

I haven't seen those movies. Christ Pratt's character annoyed me in Infinity War (or whichever one he was in) so I never went back and watched them. And in terms of being bored. Yeah, that's the greatest sin of these films. Mind numbingly boring a lot of them. For all the criticisms a movie can get, being boring is the worst. That's unforgivable.

I know this isn't Marvel, but I remember going to watch Batman vs Superman (i don't know why) and being bored out of my mind. Truly one of the worst movies i have seen in my life. Catastrophically bad.

 

[stevoc]

I haven't seen those movies. Christ Pratt's character annoyed me in Infinity War (or whichever one he was in) so I never went back and watched them. And in terms of being bored. Yeah, that's the greatest sin of these films. Mind numbingly boring a lot of them. For all the criticisms a movie can get, being boring is the worst. That's unforgivable.

I know this isn't Marvel, but I remember going to watch Batman vs Superman (i don't know why) and being bored out of my mind. Truly one of the worst movies i have seen in my life. Catastrophically bad.

That's subjective though.

Name any movie ever made and someone will have found it boring.

 

[BusbyMalone]

That's subjective though.

Name any movie ever made and someone will have found it boring.

Not entirely sure what your point is here?

I'm not implying that what I'm saying isn't subjective. Merely making the point that the worst criticism ANY movie can get is that it's boring.

 

[OleBoiii]

Unfortunately, it was honestly the most boring 4 hours I think I've ever spent and still get Vietnam-style flashbacks thinking about all the hollering and wooping I saw that evening.

I feel for you. This reminds me of my own 'Nam flashbacks from Disneyland Tokyo with my ex. We had to wake up around 6 in the morning on a day off just to make sure that we were there around opening time. Despite being on a cold fecking December day it was still fecking packed. We were there for 12 hours or something and we spent about 9 of them waiting in line for rides. 15 minutes before the park closed we had to run across the park because she wanted to try one of the rides. And then we had to sprint back again before the gift shop closed. And then we had to sprint to catch the last train. It's been a while since I was so physically and mentally knackered. I broke up with her a few days later.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I feel for you. This reminds me of my own 'Nam flashbacks from Disneyland Tokyo with my ex. We had to wake up around 6 in the morning on a day off just to make sure that we were there around opening time. Despite being on a cold fecking December day it was still fecking packed. We were there for 12 hours or something and we spent about 9 of them waiting in line for rides. 15 minutes before the park closed we had to run across the park because she wanted to try one of the rides. And then we had to sprint back again before the gift shop closed. And then we had to sprint to catch the last train. It's been a while since I was so physically and mentally knackered. I broke up with her a few days later.

Theme parks are the biggest test in any relationships

 

[stevoc]

Not entirely sure what your point is here?

I'm not implying that what I'm saying isn't subjective. Merely making the point that the worst criticism ANY movie can get is that it's boring.

You said the greatest sin of these movies was that they're boring and that that's unforgivable. My point was that is entirely on you and your subjective opinion.

I just found it an odd stick to beat a movie with is all. I find lots of movies boring including some of the superhero ones. But I just chalk it off as one that isn't for me. I don't see it as some sort of unforgivable sin has been committed because someone made a movie I found boring.

 

[BusbyMalone]

You said the greatest sin of these movies was that they're boring and that that's unforgivable. My point was that is entirely on you and your subjective opinion.

I just found it an odd stick to beat a movie with is all. I find lots of movies boring including some of the superhero ones. But I just chalk it off as one that isn't for me. I don't see it as some sort of unforgivable sin has been committed because someone made a movie I found boring.

You're really making a mountain out of a molehill here I'm afraid.

First of all, I said the worst thing that can be said about A movie, not just these movies, is that it's boring. And of course it's entirely on me - It's my opinion!

That's why I said in my original reply to you, you're not making any point here. Am I supposed to preface everything I say with "well, in MY subjective opinion" The mere fact that it's me saying it would imply that...

Why is it an odd stick to beat a movie with?? If I find a movie boring I'm going to say...It's boring! In my opinion (here you go) that's the worst thing that can be said about a movie.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Just had a rando thought - are these movies quoted a lot? Quippy one liners are something I associate with blockbuster films, but I couldn't name a single one from an MCU movie.

Edit - Actually one. The responsibility and power line from the first Spider-man movie. But I'm not sure if that counts because it's old.

 

[stevoc]

You're really making a mountain out of a molehill here I'm afraid.

First of all, I said the worst thing that can be said about A movie, not just these movies, is that it's boring. And of course it's entirely on me - It's my opinion!

That's why I said in my original reply to you, you're not making any point here. Am I supposed to preface everything I say with "well, in MY subjective opinion" The mere fact that it's me saying it would imply that...

Why is it an odd stick to beat a movie with?? If I find a movie boring I'm going to say...It's boring! In my opinion (here you go) that's the worst thing that can be said about a movie.

Yeah probably mate, it's not odd to find a movie boring or to say you found it boring. But (my opinion now) I did find it odd to say it's an unforgivable sin.

But anyway maybe I did read too much into your post, fair enough mate.

Let's get this thread back on track and back to the superhero movie bashing.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Just had a rando thought - are these movies quoted a lot? Quippy one liners are always something I've associated with blockbuster films but I couldn't name a single one from an MCU movie.

Edit - Actually one. The responsibility and power line from the first Spider-man movie. But I'm not sure if that counts because it's that old.

Don't think they are really, are they. Much like the overall film, I find the humour of them quite disposable and easily forgotten. Like they may get a little snigger out of you in the moment, but quite easily forgettable when the movie ends.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Yeah probably mate, it's not odd to find a movie boring or to say you found it boring. But (my opinion now) I did find it odd to say it's an unforgivable sin.

But anyway maybe I did read too much into your post, fair enough mate.

Let's get this thread back on track and back to the superhero movie bashing.

Fair enough

I think I've just sat through way too many boring movies at the cinema! There's nothing worse than constantly checking your watch only to find there's still over an hour or so left of a particularly bad film!

 

[Moby]

Just had a rando thought - are these movies quoted a lot? Quippy one liners are something I associate with blockbuster films, but I couldn't name a single one from an MCU movie.

Edit - Actually one. The responsibility and power line from the first Spider-man movie. But I'm not sure if that counts because it's old.

Yeah loads.

e.g. Dread it. Run from it. Pep's Roulette always arrives.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Don't think they are really, are they. Much like the overall film, I find the humour of them quite disposable and easily forgotten. Like they may get a little snigger out of you in the moment, but quite easily forgettable when the movie ends.

Does seem that way yeah, but I guess you might get a different answer from a Marvel fan.

 

[OleBoiii]

I've noticed 3 common complaints when it comes to Marvel films that even a lot of MCU fans will agree with:

1. The movies are all basically the same
2. The jokes are generally bad.
3. The villains are poor.

But these seem like pretty damning flaws to me! Particularly number 3. A comic book movie with a poor villain is pretty much useless.

 

[Drifter]

Agree with number three. Apart from Thanos , many of the villains have been disappointing, compared to their comic book counterparts, the latest being Task Master.

 

[caid]

I've noticed 3 common complaints when it comes to Marvel films that even a lot of MCU fans will agree with:

1. The movies are all basically the same
2. The jokes are generally bad.
3. The villains are poor.

But these seem like pretty damning flaws to me! Particularly number 3. A comic book movie with a poor villain is pretty much useless.

1. I think the ones that mix up the formula are the more popular ones. They usually copy them a dozen times afterwards and they lose the impact but i think the first Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy and Infinity War were pretty unique and interesting directions to take at the time. The boring samey hero story ones that make up the rest of the catalogue are just kind of unobjectionable and easy enough to enjoy so as not to ruin the few genuinely good adventure movies they make.
I think Winter Soldier feels more like a spy thriller and that helped it stand out a bit for instance.
2. I think the jokes are quite good. They're not that smart or clever but you throw Paul Rudd in a film and you cant go too far wrong. Some lean on comedy more than others and some are bigger hits on that front than others. Even the weak ones like Captain Marvel have Samuel L. Jackson putting in a decent performance and they carry things a bit and get away with it.
3. The villains are a mixed bag. I enjoyed Loki the first time or two, Thanos was quite fun. It helps but i think winter soldier was one of their better movies and Baron Nemo and a mute with a metal arm aren't particulary great villains so its not always a necessity. Dude from Guardians of the Galaxy was forgettable too, whoever he was.
Then again i grew to quite like Baron Nemo and thought he was great fun and carried a few episodes of the new tv series (which is mostly junk, its watchable but dont bother)

My expectations when watching them aren't particularly high, I'm looking for something stupid that doesn't require much thought to kill a couple of hours. They're consistently decent and occasionally very good. At least as far as big dumb adventure movies go. I'm comparing them to Star Wars and Indiana Jones and cowboy movies from the 50's. If your comparing them to Taxi Driver or Clockwork Orange then they're trash. Disposable silly fun.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Critically acclaimed movies alone can't keep the industry ticking. You need all kinds of movies. Meant for varying audience. This is the industry that has half a dozen or more of Transformers, we had 5 Planet of the Apes and the reboot already has 4 of them, 10 Fast and Furious movies, 5 Die Hard movies, 8 chucky movies, and hundreds of horror movies that have the same story and same scares.
In that kind of world, MCU can exist quite easily.
It is to be consumed by a commercial target audience. It is not for getting Best Movie or Best Drama awards.

 

[The Boy]

Just had a rando thought - are these movies quoted a lot? Quippy one liners are something I associate with blockbuster films, but I couldn't name a single one from an MCU movie.

Edit - Actually one. The responsibility and power line from the first Spider-man movie. But I'm not sure if that counts because it's old.

I doubt they are quoted much amongst people like yourself that don't enjoy them, however my kids love them and as a result I have seen most of them at one point or another and quotes like "I am inevitable", "Wakanda Forever", "Avengers assemble", "puny god" and "we have a hulk" (there are loads more) are quite common and often heard.

The movies are fine, some are definitely better than others, but I have to say I have enjoyed them and they have made me laugh, they have just as much a role to play in cinema as any other film or genre. If they were the only films out there, then that would be tedious, but as part of the wide pantheon of films available , in my mind they sit comfortably within that and benefit it.

 

[Kevin]

Fantastic movies, fantastic entertainment. Rather watch infinity war movies than sit through some of these artistic oscar crap highly praised by connaisseurs.

 

[Moby]

Fantastic movies, fantastic entertainment. Rather watch infinity war movies than sit through some of these artistic oscar crap highly praised by connaisseurs.

Has anyone here watched Nomadland? I see the trailer often but it looks like it would bore the hell out of me.

 

[HTG]

Has anyone here watched Nomadland? I see the trailer often but it looks like it would bore the hell out of me.

It’s a good movie. I quite liked it.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Maybe the wrong thread but (re: Nomadland) I've always had hard time getting into American social dramas and I think part of the reason is we hear about their lives so often that it doesn't feel as interesting.

Put that same story in Argentina or Taiwan and I'm all over it.

 

[Cheimoon]

I doubt they are quoted much amongst people like yourself that don't enjoy them, however my kids love them and as a result I have seen most of them at one point or another and quotes like "I am inevitable", "Wakanda Forever", "Avengers assemble", "puny god" and "we have a hulk" (there are loads more) are quite common and often heard.

The movies are fine, some are definitely better than others, but I have to say I have enjoyed them and they have made me laugh, they have just as much a role to play in cinema as any other film or genre. If they were the only films out there, then that would be tedious, but as part of the wide pantheon of films available , in my mind they sit comfortably within that and benefit it.

Yeah, I think we're going overboard here a bit now. Of course, the thread is populated mostly by people disliking Marvel movies and so a bit of an echo chamber; but there are clearly moments of great fun across the movies, some good quotes, etc. I mean, Marvel didn't force anyone to go watch their movies, not everyone is a comic geek, and these movies are not the only thing around. So if these movies weren't fun for the general public, they wouldn't be this insanely successful. We can by all means put them down as artistically nothing, but questioning their entertainment value seems a little silly.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Has anyone here watched Nomadland? I see the trailer often but it looks like it would bore the hell out of me.

Wonderful film and I went in having the feeling it would bore me.

 

[Bole Top]

Fantastic movies, fantastic entertainment. Rather watch infinity war movies than sit through some of these artistic oscar crap highly praised by connaisseurs.

... or that boring, overstretched, formulaic piece of crap Scorsese produced 2 years ago.

 

[OleBoiii]

Fantastic movies, fantastic entertainment. Rather watch infinity war movies than sit through some of these artistic oscar crap highly praised by connaisseurs.