Because they were brother and sister.
Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'
- Thread starter Sweet Square
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Because they were brother and sister.
It's frowned upon in most of the western world apparently.
Doesn't stop everyone!
Touché
In one of those pics are actors, the other are real.Doesn't stop everyone!
Marvel fans:
Scorsese is a boomer and Marvel movies are serious character portraits of people taught to choose between the virtuous and sinful parts of this world.
Also Marvel fans:
Yeahhhh the movie is okay but I can't help think how much better it would have been with my own personal power fantasy inserted into it.
Scorsese is a boomer and Marvel movies are serious character portraits of people taught to choose between the virtuous and sinful parts of this world.
Also Marvel fans:
Yeahhhh the movie is okay but I can't help think how much better it would have been with my own personal power fantasy inserted into it.
Batman has no issues with it.
I’ve quoted you guys in this thread rather than the Loki ones, because the defensiveness comes from the same place that fuelled the backlash against Scoresese.
My question is, why? The poster said “as expected, shite” a literal one line review that could easily be ignored, but seems to have genuinely angered you both by sharing his thoughts in the thread. You claim that he’s into self-flagellation and a sadist (also I think you’re thinking of masochist). It just seems so oddly defensive of some marvel show, and I see it around superhero media all the time.
Is it because you think it was really good and he’s wrong? Because the thread should only be for positive thoughts? Why does it annoy you?
We explain ourselves in the quotes you've posted. Why does it bother you that he was questioned? Poster in question didn't seem to care.
"As expected. Shite" does not mean that the poster had absolutely no hopes of being proved wrong. It could also be the case that he/she wasn't initially going to watch it but then a bunch of people kept recommending it to the point that it was worth giving it a shot.
If I had a dollar every time one of my friends said something along the lines of "OK, I know you don't like superhero movies, but THIS ONE is different, I promise!!"
If I had a dollar every time one of my friends said something along the lines of "OK, I know you don't like superhero movies, but THIS ONE is different, I promise!!"
It doesn’t bother me, I don’t think either of you were out of line or anything, I’ve said far worse on here over football.
I just find it kind of interesting, that fans of marvel and things like it are quite defensive about them. And I wonder why? Would you rather the thread only have positive reviews? Is it because you think that it’s objectively great and the criticism is wholly unwarranted?
If you'd read all my posts in that thread you'd see I criticised Falcon/Winter Soldier. This seems more like you're generalising all Marvel fans as fanboys, when in my experience, on the Caf, people are overly critical around Marvel for the most part.
I mean, it doesn't sound like they had much hope if they expected it to be shite..
Sure, but there's a difference between "expect" and "being almost 100% sure".
If enough people hype up a movie and even people you trust recommend it to you, then it could peak your interest just enough to try watching it. But most skeptical people are not gonna go into the movie completely open-minded if past experiences tell them that it's going to be shite. But occasionally you are proven wrong, so I can understand why people keep trying. I respect that they don't give up.
I don’t think all marvel fans are fanboys, I am a marvel fan so it’d be a weird stance to take. I think the movies are far from great and a lot of the criticism they get is warranted, but I still watched them because I like superhero stuff (admittedly haven’t watched any of the shows but I probably will at some point).
Overly critical is always going to be subjective, you might think they’re being overly critical on purpose to score internet points, or they could be giving their honest assessment and it just doesn’t match up with yours. I just don’t see why someone having a different opinion about a film or show should annoy anyone.
As for the “as expected” part, I’ll watch a lot of films I don’t fancy because I’m going with someone or friends, sometimes I’ll get pleasantly surprised (Paddington Bear 2), other times it’ll be torture (The big wedding). Sometimes I’ll watch something outside of my box that I really don’t fancy because I’ve heard good things, or I’m trying to push myself outside my comfort zone and watch something I usually wouldn’t. If you only watch things you expect to like you’ll miss out on a lot.
I wouldn't say it angers or annoys me more than it baffles me.
See, I don't like Game of Thrones, or Doctor Who. They just do nothing for me. I'm not interested at all, but my wife likes them. So, knowing I'm not going to enjoy it, I leave her to watch it on her own, rather than sit next to her and tell her I think it's shite. Because why do that to myself, never mind to her?!
It just makes no sense to me. People are obviously allowed to not like things. But why sit and watch something you are certain that you aren't going to like?
I do like some of Scorsese's stuff. And I also really disliked some of his stuff. I couldn't get more than 15 minutes through Wolf of Wall Street, because I hated the characters. So I switched it off, but didn't come on here saying it's shite, just because I dislike it. I know it's a well regarded and critically acclaimed film.
So, in short, it just feels like a not only a self defeating thing to do, but also egotistical thing to do, because to say something categorically is shite, rather than saying 'I didn't like it' is as good as saying 'I'm right, and you're wrong'.
And yes, you're right, I did mean masochist!
I don't mind criticism. I am incredibly critical of pretty much anything, whether I like it or dislike it. I pick faults in anything, not excluding my own work. But I do get annoyed if anything I produce gets reviewed with criticism as in depth as "shite, as expected". By all means, tell me why you think it was shite, and what would have made it less shite.
I think these are really fair posts. I actually regretted quoting you and the other guy shortly after posting these, because it felt a lot more antagonistic than I intended. I’m glad to see you took it in good spirits though and I think you’ve made a really strong argument.
No problem. Thanks for the good review!
I'm not a fan of his movies but Synder the guy seems great.
Celibacy for celluloid!
The actors don't give a shit. I can't remember who but I remember reading some actor who did one of those films, or a similar blockbuster, called it a "mortgage film".
Paid for the mansion, job done.
Paid for the mansion, job done.
I hope he wins.
I agree. I really enjoyed the Avengers series - I started to watch it during my pandemic training sessions as something to look at while on a threadmill. I considered dropping it after the first movie, but decided to continue and in the end really enjoyed the series. I think the 3rd and 4th movie I actually watched with full attention focused on the screen, got really pulled into the story line which is not that bad.
If people think Avengers story line is not cinema, then there would be plenty other productions which can be labeled similar. Same goes for the fantasy movies in general.
I wonder if Scorsese meant "comics movies in not cinema " (in general) or is it specific to Marvel? I guess it's more of a shorthand because of how many movies they produce (market share).
Might have been Idris Elba he is on record as saying he hated making Marvel films and did not consider them as acting
It's a funny thing to me. People enjoying the work of people who didn't enjoy creating it. If the creators didn't enjoy making it, then how can you enjoy consuming it?
After watching - and quite enjoying - Loki, I was reminded of this thread. I’ve also previously enjoyed the films name-checked by @simonhch above (while finding a few other Marvel movies fairly shit)
What occurred to me watching Loki is that it’s full of moments where you go “hold on? wtf? what was that about? that makes no sense at all. never mind, stop over-thinking and crack on. stupid to get hung up on details in a movie like this. let’s just go with the flow”. Every Marvel movie I’ve watched has moments like this. Often one every 10 or 20 minutes.
And, in a way, that’s just an incredibly disrespectful way to treat the audience. When you watch a Scorsese masterpiece you know there’s been serious deliberation behind every line of dialogue, every camera angle, every expression on actor’s face. It all just works. You can relax and immerse yourself in the film, without ever being snapped out of it by a nonsensical plot device or obvious flaw in the narrative. The fact we’ve got to a point where we we’re prepared to wilfully ignore all that shite, so we can make the most out of the movie-watching experience must be an infuriating lowering of the bar for an artist like Scorsese. So you can see why it pisses him off.
What occurred to me watching Loki is that it’s full of moments where you go “hold on? wtf? what was that about? that makes no sense at all. never mind, stop over-thinking and crack on. stupid to get hung up on details in a movie like this. let’s just go with the flow”. Every Marvel movie I’ve watched has moments like this. Often one every 10 or 20 minutes.
And, in a way, that’s just an incredibly disrespectful way to treat the audience. When you watch a Scorsese masterpiece you know there’s been serious deliberation behind every line of dialogue, every camera angle, every expression on actor’s face. It all just works. You can relax and immerse yourself in the film, without ever being snapped out of it by a nonsensical plot device or obvious flaw in the narrative. The fact we’ve got to a point where we we’re prepared to wilfully ignore all that shite, so we can make the most out of the movie-watching experience must be an infuriating lowering of the bar for an artist like Scorsese. So you can see why it pisses him off.
I giggle every time this thread is bumped. I don't know what it is, but fans of comic book films seem to be a lot more defensive about their fandoms. I wonder why that is?
My theory is that it's a bit like with anime fans, except Marvel movies are way more mainstream. Anime fans can at least pat themselves on the back and say things like "the average joe just don't get it, man". Marvel fans can't really do that. I see some of the same defensiveness with the Nolan fanboys, although some of them seem to think that Nolan produces high art as well.
My theory is that it's a bit like with anime fans, except Marvel movies are way more mainstream. Anime fans can at least pat themselves on the back and say things like "the average joe just don't get it, man". Marvel fans can't really do that. I see some of the same defensiveness with the Nolan fanboys, although some of them seem to think that Nolan produces high art as well.
Well, for instance: their taste isn't your taste, their subpar performance might still be OK-ish, and films are the work of tons of people, so a few of them not caring or enjoying it i might not change all that much.
Well, you’ve touched upon something there that I didn’t in my post, and I for one am grateful because I think that is a very elegant explanation of the anti-fantasy type movie argument that we see constantly revolving the debate circuit. I think it has become a very widely and over-used trope to say “you have to just suspend your disbelief, and let some things slide to enjoy these movies” because I think it does expose a laziness in their writing and production. I don’t think making a fantasy movie means that one has to abandon the laws of believability in terms of character actions and interactions with their environment. Yes one js creating a world in which the improbable is probable, but every created world has to have some grounding back in a framework of some rule construct.
It’s for example, why the Fast and Furious franchise was one completely abandoned by me. One expects characters to defy the usual laws of risk taking and fear by accomplishing ever increasing feats of peril, but they now seem to be immune to the laws of physics too and impervious to serious injury. This undermines the whole series because it was never an established rule framework that they had super powers; which is a borderline assumption you’d now have to make to accept their survival across myriad events in the recent instalments. It took the franchise from improbably to impossible and frankly makes it all ridiculous.
superhero movies have much greater latitude because you have characters imbued with clearly exposed supernatural powers but without clearly defined limits. That can be shaped to fit the story telling. Again, a somewhat lazy writing mechanism, but for me doesn’t necessarily ruin the immersion qualities of the movie in question. The improbability/impossibility is baked into the genre.
From 15:00 to the end of the video is a good summary of this. Seems to happen to a lot of sub cultures.
Are you sure he said that? I find it hard to believe Elba actually said that, I can't find the quote on Google.
I found quotes where he said he didn't enjoy having to make a Marvel film right after playing Mandela because he had to hang in a harness for hours or something (makes sense) but enjoyed making the last one he was in.
My biggest annoyance with these currently, and anything Disney is churning out at the minute, is that each film or series is seemingly just a big advert for the next one.
I was thinking that having watched Spiderman: Far From Home a few weeks ago. It's ok entertainment, but it basically feels like an episode in an average tv series - including the cliffhanger (the mid-credits scene). There's just no more depth, character development, or storytelling to it than that.
Good points. I suppose it's a result too of our own tension decreasing when we're three or four films in, realising the characters are probably going to live no matter what.
I'm dubbing it the Top Gear problem - when you start with some interesting situations but have to keep raising the stakes until it's just three middle-aged men pretending to be in desperate circumstances.
Tbh I'm not sure the Avengers movies are great to watch while on a treadmill is an argument against Scorsese point. Also you've just given David Lynch a heart attack.