Martial | Di Marzio thinks he will stay

I would love Martial to work out. But the hyperbole on here is so OTT. World beater, future Ballon d’Or is just pie in the sky - unfortunately he’s not proved to be good enough at the moment, by any stretch of the imagination.

Based on the last two years, it’s comical anyone thinking he could go to Spurs and be better than Son, Ali or Kane - there’s really nothing to back that up.

I hope he gets reinvigorated over summer and comes back a player more determined to become the player he could be.
 
I would say swap Martial for Griezmann and put a clause with Atletico Madrid that we will get first bidder advantage in future if they want to sell Martial.
 
Tony247 said:
I would say swap Martial for Griezmann and put a clause with Atletico Madrid that we will get first bidder advantage in future if they want to sell Martial.
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Atletico wouldn't accept that swap no chance.

Plus, aren't they meant to be after Cavani?
 
Tony247 said:
I would say swap Martial for Griezmann and put a clause with Atletico Madrid that we will get first bidder advantage in future if they want to sell Martial.
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So you offer an inferior player that is worth less money, has a shorter contract and on top of it demand a first refusal clause? You have some nerve.:lol:
 
Bwuk said:
Atletico wouldn't accept that swap no chance.

Plus, aren't they meant to be after Cavani?
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Cavani+Costa is conflict but Martial on left+Costa can work out good.

I think its an interesting win win swap (plus cash) for both teams.
 
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charlenefan said:
Son is a grafter but lets not make out he's ever going to be a world beater, you need players like him in your squad (even starting XI) but he's never going to have that X-Factor about him. We've all seen from Martial what's he's capable of doing so it's not really a case of just potential but just consistency
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That's quite harsh on Son, who is a very good footballer and very consistent - and also produces worldies with surprising regularity (his nickname in Germany wasn't "Sonaldo" for no reason). He's got 39 goals in all comps the past 2 seasons (20 more than Martial), and he's not even a guaranteed starter. That's an enormous amount of production.

Martial would be excellent for Spurs adding depth as an attacker and his ability to play on the left hand side or up top (Son is probably better on the right) would be a very nice boost. Spurs attack can get static at times and adding more pace is something Pochettino has clearly tried to do with players like N'Jie, N'Koudou and Moura in recent windows with little success so far.
 
vadimivich said:
That's quite harsh on Son, who is a very good footballer and very consistent - and also produces worldies with surprising regularity (his nickname in Germany wasn't "Sonaldo" for no reason). He's got 39 goals in all comps the past 2 seasons (20 more than Martial), and he's not even a guaranteed starter. That's an enormous amount of production.

Martial would be excellent for Spurs adding depth as an attacker and his ability to play on the left hand side or up top (Son is probably better on the right) would be a very nice boost. Spurs attack can get static at times and adding more pace is something Pochettino has clearly tried to do with players like N'Jie, N'Koudou and Moura in recent windows with little success so far.
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In Premier league Son has scored 30 goals and 13 assists in 3 seasons (5489 mins)

Martial has scored 25 goals and 15 assists in 3 seasons (5774 mins)

Martial is 22 and Son will be 26 in a month. Son is 3.5 years older and there isn't much difference in their production. This is with Martial having a stinker in Jose's first season with all the off field problems.
 
roonster09 said:
In Premier league Son has scored 30 goals and 13 assists in 3 seasons (5489 mins)

Martial has scored 25 goals and 15 assists in 3 seasons (5774 mins)

Martial is 22 and Son will be 26 in a month. Son is 3.5 years older and there isn't much difference in their production. This is with Martial having a stinker in Jose's first season with all the off field problems.
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That's a bit of cherry picking (choosing to ignore Son's very impressive record in cups / Europe and including his first season where he clearly struggled badly to adapt to England). The past 2 seasons Son has been the clearly better performer in not only the PL, but in other competitions. That being said, Martial is an excellent player with huge potential and still very young. I think if he does end up at Spurs, we'll see both he and Son on the field together quite a lot and it would definitely help balance Spurs attack.

A title challenging team needs depth in attack and whether or not Son or Martial is "better" does not matter much - what would matter is having both of them available to provide depth and flexibility. I actually think an Alderweireld for Son swap would be a good move for both squads - Alderweireld is clearly 2nd choice going forward for Spurs (Sanchez is the club record signing, only 22 and just got a huge new 6 year contract - he's not going to the bench) and Martial would be a nice shot in the arm for the depth and flexibility of the attacking unit.
 
vadimivich said:
That's a bit of cherry picking (choosing to ignore Son's very impressive record in cups / Europe and including his first season where he clearly struggled badly to adapt to England). The past 2 seasons Son has been the clearly better performer in not only the PL, but in other competitions. That being said, Martial is an excellent player with huge potential and still very young. I think if he does end up at Spurs, we'll see both he and Son on the field together quite a lot and it would definitely help balance Spurs attack.

A title challenging team needs depth in attack and whether or not Son or Martial is "better" does not matter much - what would matter is having both of them available to provide depth and flexibility. I actually think an Alderweireld for Son swap would be a good move for both squads - Alderweireld is clearly 2nd choice going forward for Spurs (Sanchez is the club record signing, only 22 and just got a huge new 6 year contract - he's not going to the bench) and Martial would be a nice shot in the arm for the depth and flexibility of the attacking unit.
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That's not cherry picking, that's called considering stats where they play same teams. Cup competitions teams play different teams and from different leagues.

Btw cherry picking is you choosing 2 seasons instead of 3 (not even sure why you did that considering Martial's first season was among his best when it comes to goals and assists)

Anyways in all competitions since they moved to England (3 seasons)
Son has contributed to 73 goals and assists in 8262 mins (according to transfermarkt)
Martial - 63 goals and assists in 8982 mins.

Ignoring the trashing of lower leagues and considering PL and CL only
Son - 48 goals and assists in 6336 mins
Martial - 44 goals and assists in 6633 mins

Not a big difference and again Martial is 3.5 years younger.
 
MadDogg said:
Martial was far better in the first half of the season than Sanchez was in the second half of the season once he replaced him. Indeed, Martial had just begun to re-establish himself as our most important attacker (a position he first held in his first season), and if I remember correctly had won three of the six player of the month awards for the club.

Even in the second half of the season when Martial's form fell away after being moved around and dropped, it's debatable which one of them was better. Sanchez's best games were better than Martial's best during that period, but his worst games were also worse.

With your second part I bolded, that's partly the problem. That's exactly what Martial did do. He started this season seemingly slightly behind Rashford in the pecking order. He didn't complain, he simply knuckled down and played well when it was his turn. After the a month or two it was obvious Martial was significantly outperforming Rashford, but Mourinho continued rotating them pretty much evenly. Martial still didn't complain and simply continued playing well with his opportunities, and eventually Mourinho recognised this and moved him into the undisputed first choice role. He had to fight for that spot, but he fought for it and ultimately won it and became arguably our best player for the next month or two. Then he got dropped because we signed a new player. A new player who proceeded to play far worse than what he himself had been doing, but there was never any hint that the new guy had to fight for his spot. He simply stepped in as first choice no matter how badly he played, and Martial if anything was dropped back to third choice despite performing better than both of the players being picked ahead of him. Now hopefully next season will be different and whoever performs the best gets the role. Whether that is Sanchez or Martial (or Rashford), that's all we can ask for. If Sanchez deserves it, great. If Martial deserves it, hopefully he actually gets it this time.
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Spot on.

Sanchez automatically become 1st choice and despite awful form, kept it.

I can understand why Martial would be unhappy at this treatment in truth
 
roonster09 said:
In Premier league Son has scored 30 goals and 13 assists in 3 seasons (5489 mins)

Martial has scored 25 goals and 15 assists in 3 seasons (5774 mins)

Martial is 22 and Son will be 26 in a month. Son is 3.5 years older and there isn't much difference in their production. This is with Martial having a stinker in Jose's first season with all the off field problems.
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And barely kicking a ball in the second half of his second.

There's no doubt in my mind Martial would upgrade Spurs instantly
 
charlenefan said:
And barely kicking a ball in the second half of his second.

There's no doubt in my mind Martial would upgrade Spurs instantly
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Exactly. He is very talented player and will be upgrade on Son, if not straight away, will be within a season.
 
charlenefan said:
Kane is a good target man and an excellent natural goalscorer but is his ability to run a players, beat them and create something out of nothing really that good? That's not a criticism it's just not the type of player he is so you would never compare him with Hazard for example would you?
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Kane will go down as one of the best premier league strikers of all time. He is more than just a good target man and goalscorer. Kane and Hazard are levels above Martial, I doubt Martial reaches Hazard’s level either.
 
haram said:
Kane will go down as one of the best premier league strikers of all time. He is more than just a good target man and goalscorer. Kane and Hazard are levels above Martial, I doubt Martial reaches Hazard’s level either.
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That's the level that Martial 'should' reach. Some people talk about Balan d'Or level and I think that is probably over-rating him, but he does have the ability to reach that level just below like what Hazard has been. Obviously doesn't mean he will, but that will be up to him.
 
Martial is a promising player no doubt about that; but this is his last chance, he’s been a the club for three seasons now and hasn’t been able to become the player we all spect him to be.

I think he has showed glimpses of real quality but then again he has showed patches of really bad form, we can’t waste more time with him, either he reaches his potential or just sell him and buy someone who impacts the team immediately.

United is desperate for titles, we have no time to develop youngsters and specially considering he is not an academy player.
 
SAFMUTD said:
United is desperate for titles, we have no time to develop youngsters and specially considering he is not an academy player.
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I don't agree that we have no time to develop youngsters. Developing young players is written into the fabric of this club and that must never be lost. Even under Mourinho we've given players like McTominey the stage they need to develop.

But I do agree that Mourinho is probably not the best man to help young players reach their potential, at least not in the way Fergie did.
 
Niall said:
I don't agree that we have no time to develop youngsters. Developing young players is written into the fabric of this club and that must never be lost. Even under Mourinho we've given players like McTominey the stage they need to develop.

But I do agree that Mourinho is probably not the best man to help young players reach their potential, at least not in the way Fergie did.
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I agree Mourinho is not the best man to develop youngsters, but the youngsters should earn their place. If they are good enough they will play. If this was Martial's first season I would agree we should give him more time, but right now it seems that we may be giving just way too many chances to prove himself.

I hate to compare us to Madrid and Barca because we operate way different, but I admire how they work their youngsters and their winning before anything mentality. Just compare the way Madrid managed the James Rodriguez's situation, he had one bad season and he is out. Same case with Morata and Jesé for example. And Barcelona with Ousmane Dembele after just one season he didn't have the level they expected, even though it was not as bad, and they are already talking about shipping him out.

Why? because in those teams there's no time to see if you might or might not develop in to a world class player for them, you either deliver or your out. That's the kind of competitiveness we should aim for. If Martial was on Barca or Madrid would he have the chance to try to prove himself after 3 seasons of barely delivering? of course not. If we are to compete at that level again we should aim for the very best and expect players to deliver right now.
 
I know the narrative that Mourinho doesn’t develop young players is very popular, but is it really the case?

Is it because he allowed a few high-profile players to leave, when most other managers would have kept them against their will. Players who took at least another couple of years to develop into the players they are now.

What are people saying, he deliberately doesn’t improve youngsters or he should play kids who aren’t ready in a way no other top club does?

Just curious.
 
Cliche Guevara said:
I know the narrative that Mourinho doesn’t develop young players is very popular, but is it really the case?

Is it because he allowed a few high-profile players to leave, when most other managers would have kept them against their will. Players who took at least another couple of years to develop into the players they are now.

What are people saying, he deliberately doesn’t improve youngsters or he should play kids who aren’t ready in a way no other top club does?

Just curious.
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I think he wants players who've already proved themselves. He seems like a guy who's all about professionalism and respects players who've built a name for themselves and views players who've just landed at big clubs without having earned it with perhaps a little less trust. Just my take on it.
 
Scholsey2004 said:
I think he wants players who've already proved themselves. He seems like a guy who's all about professionalism and respects players who've built a name for themselves and views players who've just landed at big clubs without having earned it with perhaps a little less trust. Just my take on it.
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He has signed an awful lot of young prospects, however, and is he really that different to any top manager in how he operates with younger players.
 
Escobar said:
The question is will he sign a new contract
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I don't see many good reasons why he would. He was treated really badly this season with being replaced by Sanchez for no good reason, and Martial isn't likely to be a regular starter next season. If I were him I'd want to develop elsewhere before it's too late.
 
Escobar said:
The question is will he sign a new contract
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If he signs a new contract he puts himself in a weak position, if he doesn’t he'll have a year left with us and will force us to make promises about his position/role with the club or sell him and we’d have to sell or lose him for free.

I’m hoping that Martial uses this summer and being cut from the France World Cup squad as a reason to absolutely come out all guns blazing next season and unleashes his potential, I’d love for Martial to literally tear it up and displace Sanchez as I believe a top form Martial is better for us than Sanchez because of the pace and directness Martial has.
 
He seems to be content if we go by his insta pics, which I think is a good sign for his prospects of being here past August, as we surely would have heard something concrete by now if he was moving. I think next season will be a clean slate for everyone and Tony especially will have a perfect chance to stake his claim for the first few weeks of the season with Rom, Lingard and Rashford being at the world cup.

Speaking of, I wouldn't be surprised if we started with a 3-5-2 with all those players missing in attack for us. Shaw and Valencia as WBs and Martial and Sanchez up front.
 
Cliche Guevara said:
I know the narrative that Mourinho doesn’t develop young players is very popular, but is it really the case?

Is it because he allowed a few high-profile players to leave, when most other managers would have kept them against their will. Players who took at least another couple of years to develop into the players they are now.

What are people saying, he deliberately doesn’t improve youngsters or he should play kids who aren’t ready in a way no other top club does?

Just curious.
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I don't quite fully get it either.

Maybe it has to do with the high profile/reputation/star power name of the young players who couldn't get games under him. Yeah, the low profile young players who made it are being ignored anyway. :boring: Easier to make a certain narrative using the fame names than the "who the heck" not so famous or expired names of the past.

I mean the situation at United is very clear, plenty enough new young players he brought in, promoted and gave regular playtimes.

And even if we ignore that, plenty of youngsters have been scouted and brought in to his previous teams, given the preferences over older players, promoted and have developed coached by Mourinho eg. Zouma, Varane, Morata, Courtois, Oscar, Baba, Salah (he brought him to Chelsea), Mikel, Kalou, Cech, J. Cole, Robben, etc. Plenty of these players have given interviewed of how Mourinho coached them and they praised him for it. Good number of those players turned out superb under him.

22 years old and below are young players in my book.​

Like always, some young players make it into the team, some don't. Those who pass tend to developed and performed early, those who don't may developed/performed late often at other clubs or become nothing players. Opportunities and situations could also play a part in breaking through. Pretty much happened at any top clubs who are managed by managers that have interest in developing young players. As for academy, not many make it to the first team or at least squad player with regular games.

So the narrative is really baffling.
 
I think he will try to run down the contract and next year either Juventus or Spurs would get him for £40m. Jose I think is waiting for a swap deal to arise where in his value could be better matched and also get in a player manager likes. With more players coming in, I don't see Martial getting more minutes than last season unless he's ready to play on the right side.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I would love Martial to work out. But the hyperbole on here is so OTT. World beater, future Ballon d’Or is just pie in the sky - unfortunately he’s not proved to be good enough at the moment, by any stretch of the imagination.

Based on the last two years, it’s comical anyone thinking he could go to Spurs and be better than Son, Ali or Kane - there’s really nothing to back that up.

I hope he gets reinvigorated over summer and comes back a player more determined to become the player he could be.
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I think the hype comes not because of his performances, but because of the talent he possesses. He’s not had an amazing season but you can see in glimpses the things he can do. He can dribble and finish in a way that someone like Lukaku could only dream of. The talent is in there.

Whether he can ever be consistently effective is another question. But if he could, he could really be special. He has all of the tools.
 
Rifer said:
I don't quite fully get it either.

Maybe it has to do with the high profile/reputation/star power name of the young players who couldn't get games under him. Yeah, the low profile young players who made it are being ignored anyway. :boring: Easier to make a certain narrative using the fame names than the "who the heck" not so famous or expired names of the past.

I mean the situation at United is very clear, plenty enough new young players he brought in, promoted and gave regular playtimes.

And even if we ignore that, plenty of youngsters have been scouted and brought in to his previous teams, given the preferences over older players, promoted and have developed coached by Mourinho eg. Zouma, Varane, Morata, Courtois, Oscar, Baba, Salah (he brought him to Chelsea), Mikel, Kalou, Cech, J. Cole, Robben, etc. Plenty of these players have given interviewed of how Mourinho coached them and they praised him for it. Good number of those players turned out superb under him.

22 years old and below are young players in my book.​

Like always, some young players make it into the team, some don't. Those who pass tend to developed and performed early, those who don't may developed/performed late often at other clubs or become nothing players. Opportunities and situations could also play a part in breaking through. Pretty much happened at any top clubs who are managed by managers that have interest in developing young players. As for academy, not many make it to the first team or at least squad player with regular games.

So the narrative is really baffling.
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Some of the examples you just gave are really terrible, but you have the narrative completely and utteringly incorrect. It’s his inability to integrate and play academy youth, not ones he signed off on purchasing....
 
idk about potential to be a ballon d'or winner but he definitely has the potential to be a top 5 finisher in the ballon d'or. ie: reach that kane hazard de bruyne kind of level.
 
MadDogg said:
Martial was far better in the first half of the season than Sanchez was in the second half of the season once he replaced him. Indeed, Martial had just begun to re-establish himself as our most important attacker (a position he first held in his first season), and if I remember correctly had won three of the six player of the month awards for the club.

Even in the second half of the season when Martial's form fell away after being moved around and dropped, it's debatable which one of them was better. Sanchez's best games were better than Martial's best during that period, but his worst games were also worse.

With your second part I bolded, that's partly the problem. That's exactly what Martial did do. He started this season seemingly slightly behind Rashford in the pecking order. He didn't complain, he simply knuckled down and played well when it was his turn. After the a month or two it was obvious Martial was significantly outperforming Rashford, but Mourinho continued rotating them pretty much evenly. Martial still didn't complain and simply continued playing well with his opportunities, and eventually Mourinho recognised this and moved him into the undisputed first choice role. He had to fight for that spot, but he fought for it and ultimately won it and became arguably our best player for the next month or two. Then he got dropped because we signed a new player. A new player who proceeded to play far worse than what he himself had been doing, but there was never any hint that the new guy had to fight for his spot. He simply stepped in as first choice no matter how badly he played, and Martial if anything was dropped back to third choice despite performing better than both of the players being picked ahead of him. Now hopefully next season will be different and whoever performs the best gets the role. Whether that is Sanchez or Martial (or Rashford), that's all we can ask for. If Sanchez deserves it, great. If Martial deserves it, hopefully he actually gets it this time.
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This is so on point. Martial did knuckle down and establish himself as 1st choice, then for 2 a month or so he was absolutely flying, and then Sanchez came and he was demoralisingly pushed to the other wing and then dropped below Rashford, who he spent the first half of the season showing us he was miles better than.
 
And by all accounts Salah and Lukaku, two players who Jose apparently didn't give a chance, both say they are better for it and that they rate Mourinho as a manager.
 
SpyLuke10 said:
And by all accounts Salah and Lukaku, two players who Jose apparently didn't give a chance, both say they are better for it and that they rate Mourinho as a manager.
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Don't talk to De Bruyne then, also if you expect Lukaku or most professionals to bad mouth a coach who they could potentially play with in the future, you're a bit naive. I wouldn't rely on anything players say about coaches, they have to maintain a positive relationship with all coaches who could potentially manage big clubs they aspire to join.

The fact is, Mourinho has really struggled these last two years getting the best out of all of his players, they've all had pretty inconsistent performances. Some want to single out Martial in that regard when, all things considered, he has actually been one of the most consistent performers with his time on the pitch. The problem lies in the coaching, not the players. If only a few players were inconsistent and the rest of the team had to make up for that then the blame lies on the player but that hasn't been the case in the time Mourinho's been here. He needs to step up this season and stop blaming everyone but himself.
 
Giggsyking said:
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I guess this ties in with why Spurs are demanding £75 million for Alderweireld as they’re trying to force a swap deal, I'm sorry but as much as I’d love Alderweireld playing for us he’s not worth £75 million or a straight swap for Martial.
 
davidmichael said:
I guess this ties in with why Spurs are demanding £75 million for Alderweireld as they’re trying to force a swap deal, I'm sorry but as much as I’d love Alderweireld playing for us he’s not worth £75 million or a straight swap for Martial.
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Actually the same article suggest if we were to believe it the figure of £55 million for Alderweireld includes several unrealistic add ons and is quite short of that amount in guaranteed payment so it looks like United want Alderweireld but don't intend to get fleeced and Martial is not for sale at least to Tottenham as of now.
 
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