Ha ha, maybe, but are you suitably surprised?
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He's a key player now? He's only started 12 games for this season also factor in that we have been playing dreadful football for most of the season. Hardly anything to shout about.
He has done well but he still has clear limitations. He's also is constantly fouling and looks like he could get sent of any second. He can't be starting for us if we truly aspire to be champions again.
Not in the slightest haha, but I have a ridiculous infatuation with old Clev
@Walrus
I think that in Van gaal mind the perfect midfield is a midfield with two hybrids #6/#8 and a a #10
So next season we will ideally play like that
----------Rooney-----
Di Maria------------Mata
---the new 8/6--Herrera
--------Carrick--------
The new signing should have been Strootman but with his injury I doubt that it will be him, Nainggolan who replaced Strootman seamlessly could be our man. Now like I said for all I know Herrera could lose his place and Fellaini stay in the first 11, but I doubt about it because Herrera don't really drop during the game and he is better in almost everything. Fellaini and Herrera will fight for the same position.
The prototypes are Strootman, Xavi, Vidal or Klaassen against Spain. A box to box who controls the pressing of the team and orient the game with the deep lying playmaker.
There is also an outsider, De Jong that Van gaal described as his "pressing general".
I think that in Van gaal mind the perfect midfield is a midfield with two hybrids #6/#8 and a a #10
So next season we will ideally play like that
----------Rooney-----
Di Maria------------Mata
---the new 8/6--Herrera
--------Carrick--------
The new signing should have been Strootman but with his injury I doubt that it will be him, Nainggolan who replaced Strootman seamlessly could be our man. Now like I said for all I know Herrera could lose his place and Fellaini stay in the first 11, but I doubt about it because Herrera don't really drop during the game and he is better in almost everything. Fellaini and Herrera will fight for the same position.
The prototypes are Strootman, Xavi, Vidal or Klaassen against Spain. A box to box who controls the pressing of the team and orient the game with the deep lying playmaker.
There is also an outsider, De Jong that Van gaal described as his "pressing general".
Many will but there is always some who refuse to change their opinion, which was the point in my post!
why not? there is nothing better than bumping old post to show people how wrong they were
I'm not that amazed, he was a player I always wanted and rated - even last season I spent a lot of time saying he should be given a proper chance to show what he can do. Feel free to dig up my old posts!
Maybe its just me but I vastly prefer to see Herrera playing as a true #8. Im not a huge fan of him as a #10, and I think that midfield that both of you have proposed, of basically Carrick, a defensive #8, and Herrera - is too defensive and does not offer enough in attack.
Say we had a Strootman or Vidal, lining up as Carrick/Strootman/Herrera to me is a very defensive shape. We have seen in the past how we have struggled to break down teams that simply defend deep and put 10 men behind the ball.
With this midfield Mata and Di Maria doesn't have to defend that change a lot of things, and the fullbacks will be able to bump forward with more freedom, that's also a midfield who won't lose the ball much .
That's basically the same balance than Rakitic-Iniesta-Mascherano.
Indeed, Mata and Di Maria don't contribute much defensively and can focus on their strong points this way.
Also it's not MY way of playing football, but van Gaal's. Why did you think we avoided 433 for so long? He didn't have a defensive BTB player for that 4th defensive player.
352 he had 3CB+1DM, which is enough for him. With the diamond we always saw Rooney/Fellaini in midfield, because they offer defensive workrate, 2CB+1DM+Rooney/Fellaini. It's about having 4 defensive minded players and Herrera obviously isn't seen as one. When Blind and Carrick were both injured, Rooney played CDM and not Herrera.
Since he's so adamant about this he's bringing in a new 8. You might do it differently, but van Gaal won't. If Fellaini doesn't play he'd have to revert back to Rooney in midfield or a 352 again.
If Mata and Di Maria arent defending and the fullbacks are constantly bombing forward then we are just left exposed on the flanks in my opinion.
Not that they need to do much defending in the current system anyway.
You seem very adamant and confident that you know exactly what LVG plans to do. Have you got the lottery numbers for the weekend as well?
Seriously though, I think you are overstating the whole "we must have 4 defensive minded players and no other system will do". With the current system we have 2 CBs, a holding midfielder and then both of Herrera/Fellaini who contribute in attack and defence, and thus far it has worked pretty well. I am a believer of the "if it aint broke dont fix it" school of thought in this scenario. The current system is working and working very well - I am not convinced that pushing Herrera up to #10 and bringing in a Strootman will actually offer an improvement in our overall effectiveness as a team.
Part of the threat that Fellaini offers which hasnt been mentioned in this particular discussion so far, is the height factor, which changes the way teams have to defend against us. For years we struggled against teams who simply set up to contain us - it didnt matter if we had Kagawa, Mata, Rooney et al, they just packed the central areas, forced us to play it wide and cross the ball, and headed it away comfortably. Having an aerial threat for me is important in our attack because it prevents the opponent from doing this - if they simply allow us to swing in cross after cross, Fellaini is likely to head one into the back of the net eventually. If you take that element out of the side and dont replace it with a strong aerial presence (which we wont be, if Herrera is playing as #10) then what is to stop teams from just doing the same again? Show our wingers outside, let the fullbacks have it, let us cross the ball for 90 minutes and happily defend those crosses.
If a Strootman type of player comes in next season, I don't see it affecting Fellaini too much - hopefully we'll have more games to play and it will give us the luxury of being able to adapt our approach depending on the opposition.
Strootman / Herrera to domination possession.
Strootman / Fellaini for more strength.
Or Fellaini for one or the other to add height.
Either Carrick or Blind operating behind and Perriera or Januzaj as cover for Herrera gives us a decent midfield with cover.
Strootman / Herrera to domination possession.
Strootman / Fellaini for more strength.
Or Fellaini for one or the other to add height.
Either Carrick or Blind operating behind and Perriera or Januzaj as cover for Herrera gives us a decent midfield with cover.
That's how van Gaal works, it's general knowledge about the man. He's proven this season that, unless he had injuries, he always followed that 4 defensive players rule. It's not up for discussion with him. You can read up on how he plays the game on the internet, I'm not pulling it out my arse. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, just trying to provide some information. I don't know what he's going to do, but I do know what he did (since I know some of his ways). You might disagree with him, like I do too with some of his decisions, but he's not going to change.
He's confirmed we're buying a CM to bring balance to the midfield. He means the defensive balance since that's the most problematic position for him, because we have no backup for Fellaini, whilst Herrera and Rooney couldn't provide what he wanted from his 8. So that wasn't exactly hard to call either. Makes sense to me that the CM will be box-to-box and good defensively (a Strootman) because that's the only thing we don't have from a typical LvG midfield. There's no way he'd bring in another #10 unless one leaves.
Normally Fellaini would be 8 and Herrera would be 10. Fellaini is unique in a way that he's better at 10, whilst still being able to provide defensive cover for Herrera who's at 8. He's switched those 2 around since Fellaini isn't good at 8, so they share some of the work.
A tall player (like Fellaini) has always been his plan B in his carreer if his team couldn't find an opening in the opponents defence with passing, to switch it up with crosses. Turns out for this season Fellaini can be plan A because he's our only defensive option in a 'weird combination' (weird for van Gaal's methods) with Herrera. That's great for Fellaini, he's saved his carreer here by doing so. He's also a safe option for a punt from de Gea/Jones, since our backline is still coming to terms with building from the back and aren't great under pressure yet.
It's a win-win solution in the end for this season, but like I said: if Fellaini were to get injured, we have no backup. He'd play either Blind and Carrick, or Rooney next to one of those. That's the reason he's been playing players out of position: for the defensive balance of the team.
How would you line up our midfield without Fellaini and no new CM?
Carrick (6), Blind (8) and Herrera (10)
I disagree with you that Fellaini cant play 8 - he can play that role if required. He has played well as a deeper midfielder in his Everton days as well.
I've seen you say a few times that LvG says he is going to buy a box to box midfielder - can you link those quotes?
If Fellaini carries on playing the way he's been doing in the last few games, I don't see why he can't start for us next season. On his day, he's absolutely unplayable, and gives us something different.
Next season, I can imagine our midfield trio's will be something like:
I like Herrera, but I just can't see Van Gaal regularly starting him as a 10 next season. Although he's picked up a few goals this season, he's not really known for his goalscoring, and Van Gaal likes his goalscoring attacking midfielders. I could see Fellaini, on the other hand, picking up about 10-15 goals in the most advanced midfield position if played often.
Next season, I can imagine our midfield trio's will be something like:
Fellaini - New B2B
Carrick
Fellaini - Herrera
Carrick
Herrera - New B2B
Carrick
Carrick
Fellaini - Herrera
Carrick
Herrera - New B2B
Carrick
I like Herrera, but I just can't see Van Gaal regularly starting him as a 10 next season. Although he's picked up a few goals this season, he's not really known for his goalscoring, and Van Gaal likes his goalscoring attacking midfielders. I could see Fellaini, on the other hand, picking up about 10-15 goals in the most advanced midfield position if played often.
''Asked if he is choosing to play Rooney there out of necessity, Van Gaal said: “Of course that’s the case. I’m looking for balance and I need it in midfield. The last games I played with Adnan Januzaj and Ángel Di María in the midfield positions. Then you need a certain balance for those kind of creative players. So when you have these creative players and you think that [Radamel] Falcao and [Robin] van Persie are also creative, then you have four creative players. Then you have to look for balance in your team.”
Van Gaal is clear that in the close season buying a midfielder to fill this gap is his No1 focus. “Yes, of course,” said Van Gaal, who also claimed Rooney is happy to play there.''
http://www.theguardian.com/football...-united-transfer-priority-creative-midfielder
The title is misleading, the reporter probably didn't understand him. Read the article if you like. He talks about balance (4 creative players need balance - meaning what he's always done: 4 defensive players)
The #8 is a defensive player. Rule one for these 4 players is don't lose the ball because the team isn't in the right spot to defend when they've got the ball (as per instructions from van Gaal, this is part of how he plays). Fellaini works well in a tandem with Herrera, they both do defensive work. We can't rely on Fellaini building the attack though, he's much better further up the pitch. That's why it's a weird formation, a normal van Gaal team has Fellaini at 8 and Herrera at 10. Fellaini is much better further up the pitch though and Herrera adapted well to compliment him. It's a win-win for now, but isn't a long term option (for a whole season) unless we buy a 2nd Fellaini.
I think Strootman-Carrick-Herrera is much more balanced than Blind and Carrick together, as they're both similar players. Since Carrick will be 34 and Blind is sometimes needed as LB, relying on them 2 staying fit for a whole season is too risky. Fellaini can't play every match either. It's a much safer option to bring in a new CM. Luckily van Gaal is planning to do so.
Fellaini has 5 goals, Herrera has 5 goals and Herrera played consistently deeper than Fellaini. What you are saying is very close from wishful thinking.
And Van gaal wants a #10 who can deliver the final balls too.
I'm not just basing it off one season, though. Herrera has never really been a goalscoring 10. Fellaini hasn't neither, but in 12/13, he picked up 12 goals in 36 games for Everton, and I feel with the creativity around him next season, he could go on to replicate, or even better that next season. I think he's better in front of goal than Herrera, and picks up good positions in the box.
Herrera and Mata are known for their 'final balls' yet we hardly created anything against West Brom until Fellaini come on.
In those quotes I see LvG talking about balance but nothing specific about buying any type of player as you have claimed - that is just your interpretation.
Also the quotes were specifically about him being forced to play Rooney in midfield, obviously we have moved on from that now as he is not playing there so he has clearly changed his opinion on our alternate options since saying that. In the end he found the solution in Herrera after he adapted his game to fit the LvG philosophy (as you have noted yourself).
Also you say that LvG always does the same thing, but he has very clearly talked about the fact that the PL is different and requires him to adapt his own ideas. He specifically talked about the extra need for physicality for some games in England and that is exactly the reason why he favours Fellaini.
Fellaini is doing well in his role at the moment, but he has proven in the past for Everton and Belgium that he can also play 8 if needed - after all there is not a big difference between 8 and 10 in the way we have played the last few games anyway, they both have similar defensive and attacking responsibilities.
NLMax, it seems to me like Van Gaal's preferred lineup may be too old-fashioned and reflective of a time when money and therefore talent was less dramatically unequal, so you focused more on a balanced team and less on sheer technical quality and had bigger squads rather than leaner but incredibly talented ones.
When you look at Bayern, Barca and Real Madrid (and even Chelsea this season with Cesc so deep) it seems to me that the trend is going towards getting the best offensive talent you can playing in at least close to their best positions. That seems obvious, but what it means in the midfield is that the 2nd most defensive midfielder is often a much more attacking player. Madrid play Modric in front of Kroos there, Barca play Iniesta and Rakitic (who got the job by excelling as a 10 for Sevilla) as sort of co-number 8's in front of Busquets and Bayern have often this season (admittedly Javi Martinez has been out) picked Gotze in the closest thing they have to that role, and that's in front of an aging Xabi Alonso.
Point is, if we want to threaten 90 points every year and sweep aside CL group opponents without any fuss, I don't know if being solid is anything more than a plan B. For me that means Herrera is basically the perfect number 8 for the next few years, unless we can get Verrati, Modric or another mobile genius there. Herrera can play as a 10 or as one of 2 CM's in front of a DM in a 4-3-3, but in most games we play, we want a holder who can really pass the ball beautifully behind Herrera and then 4 attacking geniuses.
If we're really serious about getting back to a teams that competes for the CL and wins the Prem more years than not, I think we've got Rooney as our 9, Di Maria and Mata as two of the other 3 remaining players in the attacking 4 and then a massive hole at the 4th spot (and then you need depth in the form of a backup 9 - hopefully Wilson - and a versatile, productive attacker to fill in for injuries. Januzaj has the talent to be either the 4th guy or that versatile backup.)
Herrera is the 8, in front of either Blind or a new DM. Carrick is lovely but will be really showing his age soon. The best teams have Kroos, Schweinsteiger/Xabi Alonso and Busquets in that deepest role. Blind is a clever footballer, but Carrick's replacement can't be someone like Nigel De Jong. It has to be another excellent distributor, if not one of the very best in the world, as those other ones above.
The other thing you see with these teams is smaller squads and about half the cover/depth provided by top youth players eager to get into the team.
Basically, our club should think of our front 6 going forward, for me, like this:
--------Rooney--------- (Wilson)
Di Maria--Mata--SIGNING (Januzaj, SIGNING)
-----Herrera------------ (SIGNING)
------SIGNING----------- (Blind)
and really, if we need another 9 when Rooney is out or suspended, it may well be Januzaj up top as we try to compensate for power and other typical strikers qualities with mobility and technical play like Liverpool do with Sterling up top.
If there's a role for Fellaini, it's only as a bench option in certain big games or off the bench.
When you look at Bayern, Barca and Real Madrid (and even Chelsea this season with Cesc so deep) it seems to me that the trend is going towards getting the best offensive talent you can playing in at least close to their best positions. That seems obvious, but what it means in the midfield is that the 2nd most defensive midfielder is often a much more attacking player. Madrid play Modric in front of Kroos there, Barca play Iniesta and Rakitic (who got the job by excelling as a 10 for Sevilla) as sort of co-number 8's in front of Busquets and Bayern have often this season (admittedly Javi Martinez has been out) picked Gotze in the closest thing they have to that role, and that's in front of an aging Xabi Alonso.
Point is, if we want to threaten 90 points every year and sweep aside CL group opponents without any fuss, I don't know if being solid is anything more than a plan B. For me that means Herrera is basically the perfect number 8 for the next few years, unless we can get Verrati, Modric or another mobile genius there. Herrera can play as a 10 or as one of 2 CM's in front of a DM in a 4-3-3, but in most games we play, we want a holder who can really pass the ball beautifully behind Herrera and then 4 attacking geniuses.
If we're really serious about getting back to a teams that competes for the CL and wins the Prem more years than not, I think we've got Rooney as our 9, Di Maria and Mata as two of the other 3 remaining players in the attacking 4 and then a massive hole at the 4th spot (and then you need depth in the form of a backup 9 - hopefully Wilson - and a versatile, productive attacker to fill in for injuries. Januzaj has the talent to be either the 4th guy or that versatile backup.)
Herrera is the 8, in front of either Blind or a new DM. Carrick is lovely but will be really showing his age soon. The best teams have Kroos, Schweinsteiger/Xabi Alonso and Busquets in that deepest role. Blind is a clever footballer, but Carrick's replacement can't be someone like Nigel De Jong. It has to be another excellent distributor, if not one of the very best in the world, as those other ones above.
The other thing you see with these teams is smaller squads and about half the cover/depth provided by top youth players eager to get into the team.
Basically, our club should think of our front 6 going forward, for me, like this:
--------Rooney--------- (Wilson)
Di Maria--Mata--SIGNING (Januzaj, SIGNING)
-----Herrera------------ (SIGNING)
------SIGNING----------- (Blind)
and really, if we need another 9 when Rooney is out or suspended, it may well be Januzaj up top as we try to compensate for power and other typical strikers qualities with mobility and technical play like Liverpool do with Sterling up top.
If there's a role for Fellaini, it's only as a bench option in certain big games or off the bench.
Bring balance to accomodate creative players (the only plays who are allowed to take risks). Di Maria, Januzaj, Falcao and RvP - do you think he wants another number 10 to bring that side balance? No, he wants a midfielder who does alot of defensive duties. Another deep CDM wouldn't really link them well, so it's pretty obvious what he means. A jack of all trades: a Strootman.
He's changed formation but still accomodated his 4th defensive player, in a way van Gaal has never done before: with Fellaini at #10 and Herrera further back, both doing defensive work. So indeed, he adapted (in that same interview he said this he states he doesn't change everything).
All I've been trying to say is that he's going to buy a BTB midfielder who's good defensively, probably to compete with Fellaini (they could play together though). Of course that CM will also help in attack. If you won't believe me or disagree that's fine. Van Gaal has always worked like this and I'm sure he will continue to do so (as he's proven it this season - playing players out of position just for defensive balance). I'm done with this discussion for now as I can't really explain this further, I've tried to explain it as best as I could. Do what you like with this info
@NoPace I cannot see LvG going 4-2-3-1 and playing Mata central as well as Di Maria and another winger, it would leave us way too open.
I have no idea if LvG plans to buy a CM to upgrade Fellaini or take Herrera's spot or simply compete with them for the two #8 spots, but regardless I think he'll buy one and we will stick with the 4-3-3.
I have no idea if LvG plans to buy a CM to upgrade Fellaini or take Herrera's spot or simply compete with them for the two #8 spots, but regardless I think he'll buy one and we will stick with the 4-3-3.
I think you might be right, but long-term, my point was it's okay to be a bit open. The best teams are open, they just keep their number of conceded goals down with top defensive talent, technical ability allowing lots of possession and pinning teams back with their attacking threat. We've only scored 52 goals in 30 games so far. We're on pace for 65ish goals this year after getting 64 last year. That's not enough.
I think you might be right, but long-term, my point was it's okay to be a bit open. The best teams are open, they just keep their number of conceded goals down with top defensive talent, technical ability allowing lots of possession and pinning teams back with their attacking threat. We've only scored 52 goals in 30 games so far. We're on pace for 65ish goals this year after getting 64 last year. That's not enough.
I personally I am with you, I grew up on a United style that was "You score 4, we'll score 5" and I'd be happy to see another #8 added that had real attacking quality to go alongside Herrera, but LvG seems to have an element of caution to him and very strict ideas that if he can he wont move away from. I think the key to more goals next season is getting two wide players either side of Rooney that are capable of double figures each.
United did play attacking football but we did that because we were rock solid at the back (gk-def-dm). Throughout the years we had exceptional players in those roles and whenever we lacked quality talent there we struggled (the transition period between Schmeichel-VDS, the transition period between Stam-Rio, and Keane's decline).
I have seen the LVG quotes and comments and yes, he has alluded to us buying a new midfielder. To go from that to the level of confidence you are displaying that we are definitely going to buy a defensive box to box midfielder, and how we are then going to line up - is a bit of a jump.
I realise that LVG favours his 4-3-3 with a forward facing triangle (ie two deeper players and one more advanced in midfield) in order to get his four defensive players - but he has also repeatedly stated that he is not stubborn with these ideas, and he is happy to change things if he feels a need/benefit in doing so.
My point is simply that these things are not so set in stone as you might have us believe.
I think Herrera is better than Fellaini as #8, and Fellaini is better than Herrera as #10. I think Herera is better at #8 than #10, and Fellaini better at #10 than #8. Therefore to me, having Fellaini as the furthest forward and Herrera deeper is an absolute no brainer, and I dont think we would benefit from playing Herrera in a more advanced role. Furthermore though, having Fellaini in the advanced role allows LVG more tactical freedom to introduce creativity and flair behind him (ie Herrera).
I dont think we will see Mata playing at #10 for the above reasons - he doesnt contribute enough defensively and therefore would unbalance our midfield somewhat. When he is out on the wing, his lack of defensive contribution is not so badly noticed, especially as in the current system, both Herrera and Fellaini have license to play a bit wider at times forming the triangles we have seen between them, the wingers and the fullbacks.
The one thing I do agree on is that we lack any suitable backup in midfield, with all of this in mind. I dont think Mata will play #10 for us anymore, I dont think LVG will want to put Rooney back into midfield. Blind can cover for Carrick happily, and I do think that Fellaini can 'do a job' at #8, in the same way I think Herrera can do a job at #10, but if one of those two are injured/suspended then there is definitely a drop in quality or balance in the side.
For that reason, I can see us bringing in a CM, but I dont think it will be one of the names mentioned. I think LVG is happy with what we have as a first choice midfield, so if we are bringing someone in, it should be either a 'too good to pass up' world class player like Pogba, or a good prospect who can potentially cover/replace Carrick whilst also being able to fulfil the box to box role. (I actually think McCarthy or Besic from Everton would be well suited for this).
Bring balance to accomodate creative players (the only plays who are allowed to take risks). Di Maria, Januzaj, Falcao and RvP - do you think he wants another number 10 to bring that side balance? No, he wants a midfielder who does alot of defensive duties. Another deep CDM wouldn't really link them well, so it's pretty obvious what he means. A jack of all trades: a Strootman.
He's changed formation but still accomodated his 4th defensive player, in a way van Gaal has never done before: with Fellaini at #10 and Herrera further back, both doing defensive work. So indeed, he adapted (in that same interview he said this he states he doesn't change everything).
All I've been trying to say is that he's going to buy a BTB midfielder who's good defensively, probably to compete with Fellaini (they could play together though). Of course that CM will also help in attack. If you won't believe me or disagree that's fine. Van Gaal has always worked like this and I'm sure he will continue to do so (as he's proven it this season - playing players out of position just for defensive balance). I'm done with this discussion for now as I can't really explain this further, I've tried to explain it as best as I could. Do what you like with this info
It is not that I dont believe you or even disagree, I was just interested to see what quotes you had been refering to as I had not seen anything as clear cut as you were suggesting and I now understand that it is more your opinion rather than anything specific he said. You could well be right though and I wouldnt be suprised to see us bring in another midfielder, but it wouldnt be my first priority either.
Of course many expected us to buy Strootman but I think he is probably no longer an option due to injury situation so I dont know who else might fit the bill.
Fellaini isn't a better #10, he is not even playing as a #10, we don't use #10 at the moment, we are playing with two #8, Herrera defensive #8 and Fellaini attacking #8. Fellaini is weaker defensively and less creative.
Fellaini is playing higher than Herrera because he is less of a liability there, Herrera showed more discipline and more composure than Fellaini in a deep position, otherwise Herrera or Mata would play there.
With Carrick injuries and after that Blind injury, Van gaal didn't had the opportunity to use them together and see if they can support Mata or Herrera or even Fellaini (he did tried against Arsenal and we lost the midfield battle).
Fellaini is also playing there because our defenders in particular, weren't comfortable enough in possession and sometimes needed a direct route, Van gaal tried Van persie and Falcao for that role but neither are as good as fellaini for that.
After that Fellaini showed that he was also the best at running from inside to outside and stretch the defense, he is also very good at playing like a deep second striker, with late runs in the box.
Now with Carrick back and Smalling, Rojo and Jones a lot more comfortable in possession we stopped launching the ball forward, De gea isn't searching for Fellaini anymore which diminish Fellaini's role now he is playing a lot more like a proper attacking #8 and in that more orthodox role, Fellaini is a lot less influential (he is still good, though) and in that role Herrera is better but we have no one to take Herrera's place, until Blind tries it, if Shaw comeback one day.
For the Herrera is better in that role, I know that because he played that role for Bielsa and was excellent and after he played like a pure #10 for Valverde and was even better.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...created/total_forward_passes/interceptions#90
@JPRouve
Now you are just being biased. I use the terms #10 and #8 not as rigid positions, but effectively a #10 as "the most advanced of the midfield three" because its much quicker to type #10 than that, likewise #8.
Regardless at this point you are simply undervaluing Fellaini's contribution and exaggerating Herrera's. Saying things like "less of a liability" is not exactly an objective outlook at all, is it?
You claim that Fellaini is weaker than Herrera defensively - I disagree. You only need look at his games against Chelsea and Arsenal - two examples against top opponents, where Fellaini's ball-winning was key to our midfield - Herrera would not be able to do that. Secondly, you are ignoring Fellaini's value on defending set pieces and crosses, which is a notable part of "defending".
So no, I dont think Herrera is better than Fellaini defensively, and I suspect many would agree. I dont think Herrera is particularly more disciplined than Fellaini either - neither of them have the discipline to play a true holding role (this was shown when we tried to use Fellaini in that capacity against Southampton). He has also shown discipline at times to avoid picking up bookings.
The reason the current system works is because the they have Carrick behind them, and both Herrera/Fellaini make defensive contributions to balance things out.
You also mention composure - which to me sounds like a typical case of "Fellaini is tall therefore must have no technique, Herrera is Spanish so must have great technique". Fellaini has provided several key passes and goals that have demonstrated his composure.
I actually really like Herrera as a player, so I dont want people to read this as me just putting him down, and forgive me if this comes across as a bit hostile, but you are basically talking crap with a lot of this;
"Fellaini is playing higher than Herrera because he is less of a liability there"
"Fellaini is also playing there because our defenders in particular, weren't comfortable enough in possession and sometimes needed a direct route"
"De gea isn't searching for Fellaini anymore which diminish Fellaini's role "
These statements are simply not true, or at best are heavily biased.
Pulling out some cherrypicked squawka stats doesnt really change anything, I can just as easily find stats which support Fellaini. They are different players with different roles and contributions.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...els_won/blocks/defensive_errors/clearances#90
See?
This was posted a few pages back and I draw your attention to it not as a Fellaini highlight reel, but because I recall watching it and noticing just how many clips there were of him winning the ball in our half - that is what I am talking about when I talk about defensive contributions. And this is why it annoys me when people claim that Fellaini just camps the opposition penalty area and chest controls 60 yard passes. He wins the ball back superbly and often releases an attacking player with a forward pass (even though apparently he slows our tempo down, cant pass etc)
There are also good examples of his composure - such as his pass to Di Maria against Arsenal which led to the goal. These attributes tend to be overlooked and ignored when it comes to Fellaini because it doesnt fit with his redcafe reputation of being the big awkward fellow who cant control anything below his waste.
This isnt even mentioning some of his other strengths such as;
*Formed/forming a good attacking partnership and understanding with Rooney.
*Has shown himself to have an excellent attitude and mental determination off the pitch.
*Also has a good mentality on the pitch - never goes missing, always wants the ball and tries to contribute even when having a bad game.
*Offers something very different to what most teams have - forces other teams to have a plan to deal with him (and often they fail), giving other players more freedom.
On top of this, he still has several years at his peak and who is to say that under LVG he wont improve further?
If he DOES improve further then he could become an extremely important player for us over the next ~5 years simply because he is unique and offers something different.
Anyway I dont think this discussion is going anywhere so I think we will need to just agree to disagree. I am always cautious of posting too much in this thread because then I get marked as the Fellaini Crusader.
Now you are just being biased. I use the terms #10 and #8 not as rigid positions, but effectively a #10 as "the most advanced of the midfield three" because its much quicker to type #10 than that, likewise #8.
Regardless at this point you are simply undervaluing Fellaini's contribution and exaggerating Herrera's. Saying things like "less of a liability" is not exactly an objective outlook at all, is it?
You claim that Fellaini is weaker than Herrera defensively - I disagree. You only need look at his games against Chelsea and Arsenal - two examples against top opponents, where Fellaini's ball-winning was key to our midfield - Herrera would not be able to do that. Secondly, you are ignoring Fellaini's value on defending set pieces and crosses, which is a notable part of "defending".
So no, I dont think Herrera is better than Fellaini defensively, and I suspect many would agree. I dont think Herrera is particularly more disciplined than Fellaini either - neither of them have the discipline to play a true holding role (this was shown when we tried to use Fellaini in that capacity against Southampton). He has also shown discipline at times to avoid picking up bookings.
The reason the current system works is because the they have Carrick behind them, and both Herrera/Fellaini make defensive contributions to balance things out.
You also mention composure - which to me sounds like a typical case of "Fellaini is tall therefore must have no technique, Herrera is Spanish so must have great technique". Fellaini has provided several key passes and goals that have demonstrated his composure.
I actually really like Herrera as a player, so I dont want people to read this as me just putting him down, and forgive me if this comes across as a bit hostile, but you are basically talking crap with a lot of this;
"Fellaini is playing higher than Herrera because he is less of a liability there"
"Fellaini is also playing there because our defenders in particular, weren't comfortable enough in possession and sometimes needed a direct route"
"De gea isn't searching for Fellaini anymore which diminish Fellaini's role "
These statements are simply not true, or at best are heavily biased.
Pulling out some cherrypicked squawka stats doesnt really change anything, I can just as easily find stats which support Fellaini. They are different players with different roles and contributions.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...els_won/blocks/defensive_errors/clearances#90
See?
This was posted a few pages back and I draw your attention to it not as a Fellaini highlight reel, but because I recall watching it and noticing just how many clips there were of him winning the ball in our half - that is what I am talking about when I talk about defensive contributions. And this is why it annoys me when people claim that Fellaini just camps the opposition penalty area and chest controls 60 yard passes. He wins the ball back superbly and often releases an attacking player with a forward pass (even though apparently he slows our tempo down, cant pass etc)
There are also good examples of his composure - such as his pass to Di Maria against Arsenal which led to the goal. These attributes tend to be overlooked and ignored when it comes to Fellaini because it doesnt fit with his redcafe reputation of being the big awkward fellow who cant control anything below his waste.
This isnt even mentioning some of his other strengths such as;
*Formed/forming a good attacking partnership and understanding with Rooney.
*Has shown himself to have an excellent attitude and mental determination off the pitch.
*Also has a good mentality on the pitch - never goes missing, always wants the ball and tries to contribute even when having a bad game.
*Offers something very different to what most teams have - forces other teams to have a plan to deal with him (and often they fail), giving other players more freedom.
On top of this, he still has several years at his peak and who is to say that under LVG he wont improve further?
If he DOES improve further then he could become an extremely important player for us over the next ~5 years simply because he is unique and offers something different.
Anyway I dont think this discussion is going anywhere so I think we will need to just agree to disagree. I am always cautious of posting too much in this thread because then I get marked as the Fellaini Crusader.
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@Walrus
I'm probably biased, I base a lot of my remarks on impressions/feelings, so I will always be opinionated.
And no I don't think that Fellaini is weak technically, but I think that he lacks composure sometimes, which is not good in deep positions, he is also attracted by the ball way to much, he is very good at pressing the ball and sometimes try to do it when he shouldn't, Herrera was like that too.
And you are to defend Fellaini, he deserves some support.
I'm probably biased, I base a lot of my remarks on impressions/feelings, so I will always be opinionated.
And no I don't think that Fellaini is weak technically, but I think that he lacks composure sometimes, which is not good in deep positions, he is also attracted by the ball way to much, he is very good at pressing the ball and sometimes try to do it when he shouldn't, Herrera was like that too.
And you are to defend Fellaini, he deserves some support.
I'm struggling to think when that might have been - late fifties and (very) early sixties perhaps?
90s and early 2000s.
Of course that style of play translated to us getting schooled in Europe multiple times.
It's not about winning 6-5, it's about winning 4-1 every week instead of risking tight 1-0 and 2-1 games, which lead you to slip up too often to post the obscene 90 point seasons the best teams put up now.
Excellent post.
That style of play is also a myth. Until 06-07 we'd only scored more than 80 goals in a Prem season twice and, over the 15 seasons to that point, we averaged less than 2 goals a game. And that's including 99-00 and 01-02 when we scored 97 and 87 goals respectively. In the Prem we let in 3 or more goals 40 times in those 15 seasons - we won 5 of those games (and had six 3-3 draws). That's not to say that the game wasn't more "end to end" in those days - it was. But, strangely, that didn't result in more goals (for or against) than we've seen in recent years.
It's true that we didn't do well in Europe initially, but that's not uncommon (think City more recently). Our first four years were very mixed - lost in the first round, lost in the second round, lost in the group stages, lost in the first round - but after that we qualified for the knock out stages almost always (from 96-97 onwards). I suppose that the lesson we learnt was that direct football doesn't work at the highest level of European competition.
On the subject under discussion (which I'd rather lost sight of), it's pretty obvious that we aren't playing with a #10 at the moment. We're operating with a defensive triangle (Smalling, Jones and Carrick), a left sided triangle (Blind, Fellaini and Young), a right sided triangle (Valencia, Herrera and Mata), and Rooney. I suppose if we insist on defining them by a number, Fellaini and Herrera could both be thought of as #8's, and Mata and Young as #7 and #11 respectively. Both Fellaini and Herrera are, to an extent, box to box players in this framework. Fellaini, because we're using him in both penalty areas and as an outlet target, has a bigger range than Herrera, but their basic roles (as the pivot in the triangle) are the same. They have both done spectacularly well in the last two matches - long may it continue.
I'm still not buying that Fellaini is playing as a box-to-box midfielder. I mean look at his goal against Tottenham, he was running off the shoulder of the last man. He drops into midfield without the ball to give us an extra man there but that's exactly what Rooney was doing playing off RvP in 12/13 and you can't argue that he was playing as a no 8.
Look at the heatmaps. Fellaini and Herrera are playing essentially the same role with the exception that Fellaini is expected to get into the box occasionally. Their average positions were almost identical in the Spurs and Liverpool matches. Between them they carpeted the area between the boxes.
This is a screen cap from the Tottenham game and is generally how Fellaini positioned himself vis a vis Carrick and Herrera as his starting position.
This is a screen cap from the Tottenham game and is generally how Fellaini positioned himself vis a vis Carrick and Herrera as his starting position.
was it after united grabbed the lead? because at 2 or 3 nil he was pulled back.
Rooney was playing behind the forward, centrally, in a 4411 or 4231. He was a 10 who helped out defensively - similar to Oscar for Chelsea. Fellaini, on the other hand, although slightly more advanced than Herrera, is playing on the left of a three, whilst Herrera is on the right.
Fellaini shares a similar role to Matuidi of PSG, who constantly running off the shoulder of the last man, but also comes back and makes a three off the ball. In a 433, if the forward drops off, which Rooney likes to do often, you then need one of the midfielders to run in behind, and it seems that Van Gaal has given Fellaini that role.
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