Marcus Rashford (out) | signs for Villa on loan

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We've watched him on the pitch for years. He doesn't put in a shift, it's simple as that. That's very unprofessional in itself, we don't need there to be anything else.

I don't even think he's a bad lad, I just believe he's lost the love of the game (at least enough of it to play at the highest level) and is a bit misguided by his entourage. I feel he got into football to help himself and his family, he's achieved that, and just can't bring himself to be motivated anymore.
I really like this post. Obviously there are big gaps in what we know. Is the truth closer to -
- Marcus puts in his usual bare minimum of effort and is so good that’s good enough. To his horror, Amorim requires 100% even in training. They fall out. Marcus wants out.

Or -
- There are darker, hidden issues or happenings which completely undermine squad discipline etc …
or -
- Ratcliffe is fed up with untenable wages and gets a ‘not putting shift in’ report from staff. Pushes MR towards exit, with Amorim agreeing.

I’d love to know the truth.
 
Again, why fans constantly read this situation only through his wage? Money is important but money is not ONLY important thing for players. Why his salary would be our problem only?
IF he wants to stay and and just collect money without playing then fine, it is on us to pay him every single euro.
But he said that he wants to leave for "new challenge". So, IF he wants to leave and play football then he also needs to lower his demands.
He is 27 and in his prime. I bet that he is not interested to sit 2 more years on the stands or on the bench just because of 300k per week.

We don't need to be pushovers here. "You don't want to leave for less money? Fine, then do your job here."

I suspect he’s not too bothered about leaving. His “new challenge” statement was after the club had put him up for sale and clearly reactive. I’m sure he’s prepared to move a bit on his wages to move but he isn’t going to accept, say, £100k when he can continue to earn £250k here.
 
Is Rashford’s salary still the stated amount or would it have gone down since we didn’t qualify for the CL? Surely it’s gone down by 25% from his contract? I have no idea
 
There's definitely a gap between what we know about his behaviour and the way he is being treated. Either he's just so unprofessional on a daily basis in a way we are not privy to or there was a one-off incident bad enough to banish him that we don't know about.

I think if you remember the things that happened during ETHs management, especially during the later part, I think we got a very good window into his behaviour
 
Dele Alli mark 2. Knowing you have enough money to live like a king for the rest of your life is clearly a huge demotivation for some players.
 
Is Rashford’s salary still the stated amount or would it have gone down since we didn’t qualify for the CL? Surely it’s gone down by 25% from his contract? I have no idea
£225k without CL is the word.
 
I wonder what our training is like these days, I remember Ronaldo saying he always tried to beat Tevez to training but Tevez was always there first at 6 or 7am. Heard plenty around the likes of Giggs and Scholes doing extra training or gym work as well.

Ronaldo and Ibra seemed to say we don't act like players of a big club. Hopefully it's something that Amorim can start building as part of the culture change as our youth need that guidance.
 
Is Rashford’s salary still the stated amount or would it have gone down since we didn’t qualify for the CL? Surely it’s gone down by 25% from his contract? I have no idea
Yes, it will have gone down. And he won’t be getting performance incentives such as appearance bonuses, goal bonuses etc. No idea what he’s actually getting paid at the minute as his weekly wage but it should be a lot less then the numbers being chucked about.
 
We've watched him on the pitch for years. He doesn't put in a shift, it's simple as that. That's very unprofessional in itself, we don't need there to be anything else.

I don't even think he's a bad lad, I just believe he's lost the love of the game (at least enough of it to play at the highest level) and is a bit misguided by his entourage. I feel he got into football to help himself and his family, he's achieved that, and just can't bring himself to be motivated anymore.
I think the entourage thing is one the biggest factors here. If he is only ever surrounded by hangers on who blow smoke up his arse, that's the world he lives in and the only one he hears. I'm sure in his mind he feels victimised because his people are telling him that he is being.

The strange thing to me is his lack of perspective. What top team is going to come in and pay big money for a player who doesn't work on the pitch, which has been evident for nearly two years, and doesn't work in training so looks like he can't be bothered. There were stories about his lack of application from way before Amorim arrived.

His only route back to being an elite player again is really to turn up training every day and give 100% each and every day. Beckham, Ronaldo, Cantona - the best of the best - did all that was required at training and then stayed behind and did extra. If those stories came out, he performances would improve and he could get a regular starting slot either here or elsewhere.
 
Well similar to Rashford then. If its a right setup and he's up for it its all good. And similar to Rashford Pogba wasnt up for it most of the time. Injuries or playing in a wrong positions are just excuses. We bought a ton of midfielders apparently just so suit his specific way of playing but nothing worked out. If he needs that many adjustments and a specific position to shine he's not that good to begin with, certainly was always overhyped.
People make out that Pogba needed some very specific set-up which required very specific players, but it really wasn't. We as a team just needed a normal balanced midfield, most likely in a system that was arguably the most common set-up for top european teams at the time. A deeper-lying playmaker, a box-to-box harrier, and a third midfielder with a bit more freedom and a little less defensive requirements. Instead, we refused to buy suitable players and just kept putting out a terribly balanced midfield and unsurprisingly our midfield never functioned properly. Which meant that every single one of our midfielders struggled. Something we've still continued to do to this day.

In Pogba's entire six years at the club, there was only about three months that we played that way. About one month in his first season, with a past-it Carrick, Herrera and Pogba (which coincided with probably our best period that season). Then two months after Ole took over with Matic, Herrera and Pogba (which was easily the best we've played since Fergie retired). I looked into it once and from memory we played that latter combination 20 times in all competitions in the years we had them together. They lost and drew the first two matches, then won 17 and drew 1 of the next 18. Literal league-wining form. You'd think we'd take that as a hint that we should try to build our midfield to play that way consistently; not because it suited Pogba, but because it suited everyone. But for some utterly stupid reason we never did.

I'm not completely defending Pogba or anything, which is why I said there was only some truth in it. But much more so than Rashford.
 
Really hope he finds a club which brings out the best in him again. Less spotlight perhaps and lower demands. Should have been sold at his over inflated heights of recent seasons as his consistency has always been his weakness. I’d rather a club where young players coming through can plainly see the standards needed for the first team and if you drop, you are sold (rashers), if you are unlucky with injuries (jones) you are sold..if you (you get the picture)…
 
I really like this post. Obviously there are big gaps in what we know. Is the truth closer to -
- Marcus puts in his usual bare minimum of effort and is so good that’s good enough. To his horror, Amorim requires 100% even in training. They fall out. Marcus wants out.

Or -
- There are darker, hidden issues or happenings which completely undermine squad discipline etc …
or -
- Ratcliffe is fed up with untenable wages and gets a ‘not putting shift in’ report from staff. Pushes MR towards exit, with Amorim agreeing.

I’d love to know the truth.
Could be a mixture of these. Wouldn’t be surprised if the £350k a week argument is a big reason to get rid.
 
There is a reason you have to use that single example from Ferguson from his 40 year long managerial career, because it was a very unusual thing and not something common at all.

He made comments to the press that he had to walk back, either because he wasn't capable of thinking obvious things through, or because he spoke to the press without thinking. He also destroyed several things in the dressing room, either because he very rationally figured that this was the best available action he could perform to help the team, or because he lost control.

Then, with the latest comments about Rashford, he either 1. again spoke to the press without thinking first, 2. is trying to push Rashford to leave, which is weird if Rashford wants to leave, or 3. is dumb.

This happening so recently after the first two things makes 1 a reasonable guess for me, but who knows.
No, I used this extreme example from the best ever manager in the game to ask if you think he also lacks impulse control. Because he has had many other examples of hairdryer treatment which did not cause immediate harm to players. The stuff Amorim reportedly did (breaking things in dressing room) is very common. What (used to be) not that common is getting leaked the next day or immediately after.
 
No, I used this extreme example from the best ever manager in the game to ask if you think he also lacks impulse control. Because he has had many other examples of hairdryer treatment which did not cause immediate harm to players. The stuff Amorim reportedly did (breaking things in dressing room) is very common. What (used to be) not that common is getting leaked the next day or immediately after.

The hairdryer treatment from Ferguson is one of the most famous examples brought up as effective man management, throwing shoes at people is not. For obvious reasons. What other examples do you have, Fabregas throwing a slice?

If you think managers thrashing rooms had always been common, but more reported on now, which other managers are doing that now? Should be easy to list ten or a hundred examples.
 
The hairdryer treatment from Ferguson is one of the most famous examples brought up as effective man management, throwing shoes at people is not. For obvious reasons. What other examples do you have, Fabregas throwing a slice?

If you think managers thrashing rooms had always been common, but more reported on now, which other managers are doing that now? Should be easy to list ten or a hundred examples.
He broke a tv . Trashing a dressing room, get a grip.
 
I wonder what our training is like these days, I remember Ronaldo saying he always tried to beat Tevez to training but Tevez was always there first at 6 or 7am. Heard plenty around the likes of Giggs and Scholes doing extra training or gym work as well.

Ronaldo and Ibra seemed to say we don't act like players of a big club. Hopefully it's something that Amorim can start building as part of the culture change as our youth need that guidance.
It was the other way round, Tevez said that he had tried to be first but Cristiano was always there before him. Which sounds a bit odd considering that I've recently heard Rio talk with Koman, I think, and they were both... somewhat not too complimentary of his attitude in training (although it was said in a positive light — as in when Tevez wanted stuff to happen, which was usually already on the pitch, he made it happen and there was no stopping him — but he rarely got that motivated in training).
 
It's refreshing to see how the media have now taken stance along with Amorim. Pretty much every article, podcast and news segment are saying how Rashford has an easy and open path back in to the team but he's just not willing to take it. All it takes is to give 100%.

I really hope that he sees this now and has a good hard look at himself and he accepts a challenge. Either here or elsewhere but I fear he's just going to plod along until his contract runs out or we pay him off.

His support network have also really fecked up too. They should be giving him a clip around the ear and keep him grounded but it appears they are doing the complete opposite.
 
Is Rashford’s salary still the stated amount or would it have gone down since we didn’t qualify for the CL? Surely it’s gone down by 25% from his contract? I have no idea
I think the press deliberately confuses that so it can ignore or fudge the reduction.

Makes better headlines.

Yes, it will have been reduced by 25%.
 
He broke a tv . Trashing a dressing room, get a grip.

This is silly. If that was your actual reaction, you would have led with it. Instead, you spent several comments talking about how what he did is completely normal, but when you realize it's not you change your script.
 
His support network have also really fecked up too. They should be giving him a clip around the ear and keep him grounded but it appears they are doing the complete opposite.

It seems like a lot of high profile footballers who have their family as their agents tend to do stupid shit that negatively affects their careers.

Kane and his brother had that summer they wanted to leave Spurs, fecked that up and looked stupid to everyone
Rabiot and his mother have ludcrious demands and overstep their boundaries
Ronaldinho and his brother from memory used to play hell with Barcelona every summer

And now Rashford and his family with their PR pieces that only serve to make him look worse as he continues to underperform on the pitch.
 
This is silly. If that was your actual reaction, you would have led with it. Instead, you spent several comments talking about how what he did is completely normal, but when you realize it's not you change your script.
No, this was the reaction to your comment. I am not going to spent time indulging you and searching how many managers broke something in a dressing room. Most of the occurrences I know are from the local championship in my country. As I said these things are not usually reported.
 
Dele Alli mark 2. Knowing you have enough money to live like a king for the rest of your life is clearly a huge demotivation for some players.

Dele's situation became very clear later, there was an interview that is worth watching if you have not seen it.

The situation with Rashford is very different, are as far as we know.. I am not sure Rashford was moving drugs and being molested at a young age.
 
No, this was the reaction to your comment. I am not going to spent time indulging you and searching how many managers broke something in a dressing room. Most of the occurrences I know are from the local championship in my country. As I said these things are not usually reported.

You should only have to spend a couple of minutes. After all this is supposedly very common at the very highest levels of the sport, and the media is going to report anything from the top clubs in England/Spain/Italy/Germany. It's all a quick Google away.

How many things did ten Hag, Solskjær, Mourinho, van Gaal and Moyes break? We can include van Nistelrooy, Rangnick, Carrick and Giggs as well (his partner's face doesn't count), to stack the deck some more.
 
I have no idea why this point is equivalent to insulting someone's intelligence. What you strongly claim in contradiction to a post is NOT clear and obvious, I'm asking you to explain your view. I'm not, say, asking you to explain why 2+2=4 - that would insulting your intelligence (or mine). On the other hand, I do think it is strange when you make a throwaway comment contradicting them and refuse to elaborate.

Anyways, I am actually curious about the timeline, so I went looking for the 'cultural reboot' piece that I remember reading.


My version was this piece by Jamie Jackson in the Guardian, published on 16th December after him and Garnacho were dropped for the derby win. Rashford's Winter piece came out on the 18th, 2 days later.
There's some strong language in the article:




But there are no sources at all backing it up, and the reasoning is seemed to be based on a 'feeling' at the club.



In the very article, Jackson backtracks with a contradiction.



So either Amorim thought Rashford's time is up and he has no place, or he thought Rashford could make his way to the squad. Which was it? We never found out because Rashford did the Winter piece two days later. But my read (and what I think is a sensible read given the state of the British media and Jamie Jackson's reputation for sensationalism) is that Jamie Jackson doesn't know, because he's speculating and he has no sources. I'd rather believe the (excessively so) honest head coach.

More evidence? Jamie Jackson's own words in a later article on 26 Jan called 'Ruben Amorim’s struggle for goals not helped by Marcus Rashford’s exile'



'Unless Ratcliffe informed'? So he doesn't know, which means the previous article was speculation, as well. It's just shitty 'jornalism' with no explicit boundaries between opinion and reporting. I wouldn't be surprised if Rashford himself read the same cultural reboot article and thought it was a club briefing, leading to him being disillusioned two days later.

The point is, the club did NOT have a briefing where they put up Rashford for sale, at least not before his Winter piece. You're being misled by poor journalism.
It's a shame that this post was ignored because it really helps show the timeline of events and how Rashford wasn't forced out.

To the people who still want Rashford here. Do you really want us to mollycoddle someone who consistently sulks, and seems to put personal trips ahead of their job, whilst paying them £300k a week for the privilege?
 
You should only have to spend a couple of minutes. After all this is supposedly very common at the very highest levels of the sport, and the media is going to report anything from the top clubs in England/Spain/Italy/Germany. It's all a quick Google away.

How many things did ten Hag, Solskjær, Mourinho, van Gaal and Moyes break? We can include van Nistelrooy, Rangnick, Carrick and Giggs as well (his partner's face doesn't count), to stack the deck some more.
:lol: Do you serve any other purpose on this forum apart from arguing incessantly about dumb shit and annoying people ? Off you go, count it yourself how many things Jose broke.
 
If you think managers thrashing rooms

Before you make another fuss about people's intelligence being insulted, make sure you stop using manipulative language, such as the above, or using the term "evidence" instead of " indication" in your previous posts.

You may dislike Amorim, but Rashford has had issues with multiple managers, including his NT manager who also dropped him without and never looked back.
 
Who the feck does Rashford think he is?

Prime Ronaldo or Messi?

One good season to get a fat contract and he is too good to put a shift in.

Makes my blood boil!

If you love the club and are a local lad you should care alot more and give everything wich he does not.
 
:lol: Do you serve any other purpose on this forum apart from arguing incessantly about dumb shit and annoying people ? Off you go, count it yourself how many things Jose broke.

I'm pretty sure you're the one arguing that managers regularly break things in a fit of rage, not me.

Mourinho is at zero, by the way, since you asked.
 
Who the feck does Rashford think he is?

Prime Ronaldo or Messi?

One good season to get a fat contract and he is too good to put a shift in.

Makes my blood boil!

If you love the club and are a local lad you should care alot more and give everything wich he does not.
It wasn’t even a full good season either. He and his entourage swindled the club for that contract big time. Everyone with half a brain could see it was such a poor decision because he has never had a full consistently good season with the club.
 


This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.

But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?

Why though? We've seen him walking and jogging about, on the field, for the best part of 18 months+ now (probably even longer). Plus the night outs and being fined/dropped for breaking the rules, ill-discipline etc. Why is Amorim's side of the story so hard to believe if we've all witnessed it before our very own eyes?
 


This longer clip seems to be doing the rounds now. This is extremely difficult because I think Ornstein is as good as there is out there, but this just feels like PR spin to me? And yet I don't believe for one second he's the type of journalist that would typically do that sort of PR. It's a very messy situation.

But Ornstein saying: Rashford wasn't the one that initiated his exit, still wants to stay, is still training extremely hard, it's all very very hard for me to believe. Why exactly would Amorim come in and say these things if Rashford clearly didn't do something to put him off?


You don't to where he has got to without it, that's why he gets many exclusive scoops, players agents etc do not give you exclusive info without something in return.
 
I agree with all of these responses to the ridiculous post about "babyish behaviour" from Amorim. As takes on the situation go, that's one of the worst I've heard. Rashford has been excluded because his effort in training, and all the behaviour associated with his approach to professionalism etc., is below the standard required for a Manchester United player. The ONLY ways through that are to either (a) leave, or (b) raise your standards to those required.

Rashford clearly doesn't want to do (b) or it would've happened already. It's not difficult to go into work every day, with a positive, professional attitude, and give 100%. Especially when your job is playing fecking football. If a player thinks they are too good for that, or can't find the motivation to do it, then they serve zero purpose for the club. By reintegrating them into the team, you undercut everything you are trying to achieve in raising standards. "Hey everyone, if you don't give 100% and carry yourselves with the upmost professionalism, you won't be part of the team. Except Marcus of course, he can't be arsed but I'm putting him in the team anyway." Doesn't really have a ring to it.

No player is bigger than the club, and especially not a player that hasn't delivered anything of note in the last 18 months. Rashford, unfortunately, is the product of his environment. Here was a player who rose to prominence under famed disciplinarian Louis Van Gaal. He came onto the scene as an all action, tireless, forward. A player who made endless runs into the channels, pressing, behind the lines. Was constantly moving, and buzzing around. He was a real force of nature. He gradually started developing his game, filled out tremendously, became a really exciting and explosive inside forward....but over the OGS era, we started to see more and more player power come to the fore. It has reared it's head during the Mourinho era. OGS famously was fairly lax when it came to discipline and training. Preferring a more laissez-faire approach to the game. A move to "bring the joy back". And in fairness to him, he did very well for two seasons. But as he hit a rocky patch, the squad didn't have the discipline, grit, or determination to pull themselves out of it. The ended up as a bunch of moody, man-boys, who didn't want to do the hardwork and wanted everything their own way. Ragnick saw this when he came in, and was palpably shocked by the lack of professionalism throughout the squad.

Rashford never recovered from this. His key formative years were at his boyhood club, getting paid 300k+ a week, in an environment dominated by player power, overseen by an indulgent, profligate board who indulged his ridiculous attitude because he was a "star". Now reality has bitten. There is a whole new structure, no more indulgence of prima-donna's, exacting standards, sensible recruitment, resetting of cultural and professional standards, and a lot of the players are apparently not keen to conform. Those players have to go. Sancho is gone, Rashford will be next. It is their loss, not ours. Absolute ruthlessness is required. There is nothing to prevent Marcus from coming into training tomorrow, to pull the manager aside and say "Boss, I was wrong, I can see that now. I want to give it all, I want to be at this club, I want to learn, I want to improve, and you can count on me to give 100% every time I step onto the training field", and then to go out there an actually do it. Absolutely nothing to stop him from doing that except (a) his pride, (b) his attitude, or (c) his (lack of) motivation or ambition.

There is virtually no player I would indulge outside of the standards, except for perhaps peak Messi, or an iconic leader like Cantona.....but the reason those players were so good in the first place, is because they worked so hard and led by example. So it's a moot point. What you don't do is indulge and make exceptions for a player without 9 goals in past 60 games, who spends 90% of the game walking or trotting about.

There was a point in time where with Garnacho, Rashford, Greenwood and Martial, I thought United had potentially one of the best strike forces in the world. 3 from the academy, and one signed as a teen. They were to come to represent everything that was good about Manchester United. 3/4 are now abject failures in terms of this club, and a fifth young talent and major signing, Jadon Sancho, has gone the same way. In nearly every case, the problem hasn't been talent, it has been attitude, discipline, character, and work ethic etc. That should tell you everything you need to know about the type of culture we have had at this club for the last decade. How does one club produce so many top young talents, and then have all of those talents fall off because of off the field, or lack of application reasons? Unless there is a serious cultural problem at the club.....

The work Ineos and Amorim are doing to change the culture, is the single most important work done since Fergie left. It's more important than results right now, and it's more important than trophies this season. Anything we achieve in the short term (cup wins under ETH for example) are just papering over the cracks of a broken, rotten institution. Ineos are now fixing the foundations, and things will get ugly as a result. Players, big players, will leave. Results will suffer. Sacrifices will have to be made. Dirty laundry will be aired. The list goes on. But it is VITAL that we stay the course. That we reset and rebuild this club with the cast iron discipline and high standards that drove it to success over the 30 years Fergie was here. To be the best, to compete with the best, you have to have an environment that demands excellence in everything. That exudes application, dedication and hard work. That makes intelligent, data driven decisions, and uses facts rather than emotion to drive decision making.

Zero exceptions, zero tolerance for application underperformers, and a close knit culture. A player can play badly, and still be a part of the squad, if that player is giving 100% to the cause, and doing everything they can to improve. A player can play well, but be sold or dropped, if they are only giving 50 or 75%, but the effects of indulging that player, spreads to everyone and everything.

TL;DR - Sell Rashford.
Amen
 
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