[kopviolator]

You just know he will turn into prime Ronaldo for the first few months when the new manager comes in.

Or at his new club. I don´t think I could stand the abuse he's been subjected to over a period of two years. He really should move away from this toxic environment.

 

[simmee]

It's laughable isn't it?
We all know he has weaknesses in defensiv part of games, but he wasn't even really at fault for the goals yesterday.
You would think you have a 200mio defence who copes with crosses and doesn't rely on their forward who put the Team 2:0 up to prevent the crosses.

Look at their first goal, Rashford lets their fullback just walk past him to cross it from the edge of our box. If anyone thinks SAF or, for that matter, any of the players from those teams would have accepted that from Rashford then your standards are awfully low. I know we have bigger problems than Rashford's work rate and I don't usually post in this thread but he 100% deserved to be hooked for that sequence alone.

Is ETH in a position to send that kind of signal and receive a positive reaction at the moment? Probably not. But sooner or later the standards for defensive work rate has to be set. And that is not just for Rashford of course.

 

[the_cliff]

I do agree with what people are saying in here regarding Rashfords defensive work ethic. I'm just confused as to the timing of it. Rashford hasn't just been lazy tracking back this season. He was probably worse last season, as he didn't track back but was terrible going forward too.

Did ETH just suddenly realise oh shit Rashford isn't working hard defensively on the back of the first 45 minutes at Porto ? Because that's a huge worry in itself. He's about 80+ Appearances too late.

 

[Lash]

I would. No team can afford a player who doesn’t manage to follow the team tactics.

I think it needs to be said that Rashford was our best attacking player in the last third by far yesterday. I think it also needs to be said that he was the main reason we lost control of the game. Both Porto goals and several of their beat chances came from the same spot and in the same way, Rashford was out of position and Dalot and Eriksen were 2 vs 3 on the left side of defence.

Ten Hag is clearly to blame for thinking that a midfield of Eriksen and Casemiro 2024 versions can cover for a defensively deeply deficient player, and also to fail to see that Dalot has been playing sub par consistently for a fair few games on the tror nd looks honestly a bit drained to me.

That doesn’t remove the fact that Rashford has the defensive responsibilities he has, doesn’t do them even to a basic minimum level, and that leaving FB and CM 2-vs-3 consistently will be punished even if they are Ugarte and Shaw.

For me, on balance, I think without Rashford on the pitch we would easily have gone to the brak with 0-0. He provided our biggest attacking threat and biggest defensive weakness. And for anyone saying he’s not a defender - no, exactly, and for a mainly attacking player to be a teams biggest defensive weakness, he must do some pretty diabolic sabotage of the team’s defence to have that sort of impact, which was just what Marcus did yesterday.

In an ideal world, sure, but right now we have such a lack of attacking threat, it feels like we have to make trade offs. If we were a functioning side, he'd have been out the side a long time ago, but he keeps getting chances as you know he can "create something out of nothing". Same goes for Bruno, but you allude to it in our 3rd paragraph, our options make it seemingly impossible to cover the gaps left for our only creative and attacking threats to perform.

Agree totally on the last paragraph.

 

[FujiVice]

I'm convinced Ten Hag is doing guess work during these matches. Rashford was frightening them. And he took him off at half time. No proper manager would have done that. Nobody looks at the biggest threat and goes "let's give them something less to worry about." Absolute plonker.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Havent looked at Arsenal or City much I see

I never said they don't track back, but it's not the obsession that it seems to be with our fans. Additionally, those teams have managers who set them up properly and typically dominate possession, which means they aren't required to defend as much as they would under Ten Hag's more chaotic, basketball-like tactics

 

[Canucantona20]

I'm convinced Ten Hag is doing guess work during these matches. Rashford was frightening them. And he took him off at half time. No proper manager would have done that. Nobody looks at the biggest threat and goes "let's give them something less to worry about." Absolute plonker.

I think he blamed him for his defensive work

 

[Doracle]

I'm convinced Ten Hag is doing guess work during these matches. Rashford was frightening them. And he took him off at half time. No proper manager would have done that. Nobody looks at the biggest threat and goes "let's give them something less to worry about." Absolute plonker.

He’s very Southgate like in that he just doesn’t react to what’s happening in the game. He will have decided in advance that he was giving Rashford 45 mins and Garnacho 45 mins and what was happening on the pitch was then irrelevant.

 

[RedDevil@84]

He’s very Southgate like in that he just doesn’t react to what’s happening in the game. He will have decided in advance that he was giving Rashford 45 mins and Garnacho 45 mins and what was happening on the pitch was then irrelevant.

Man of his word. That's class.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

He’s very Southgate like in that he just doesn’t react to what’s happening in the game. He will have decided in advance that he was giving Rashford 45 mins and Garnacho 45 mins and what was happening on the pitch was then irrelevant.

This 100 %

 

[JJ12]

He’s very Southgate like in that he just doesn’t react to what’s happening in the game. He will have decided in advance that he was giving Rashford 45 mins and Garnacho 45 mins and what was happening on the pitch was then irrelevant.

I didn't think of this, you could be right. Such silly management.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

I didn't think of this, you could be right. Such silly management.

Said this since halftime yesterday. It was pre-defined to play Rashford/Garnacho 45min each.

I'm 99.9% sure they will start vs Villa.

 

[Grande]

In an ideal world, sure, but right now we have such a lack of attacking threat, it feels like we have to make trade offs. If we were a functioning side, he'd have been out the side a long time ago, but he keeps getting chances as you know he can "create something out of nothing". Same goes for Bruno, but you allude to it in our 3rd paragraph, our options make it seemingly impossible to cover the gaps left for our only creative and attacking threats to perform.

Agree totally on the last paragraph.

Yea, I see you with the trade-offs, sure. For me, though, from a coach POV, and from a fan POV, I can live with a player being bad at one thing and better at another, that kind of trade-off. But if a player either by motivation or by stupidity doesn’t back up the team plan, I think that’s sabotaging the team to let it continue, regardless if he scores a hat trick. It’s suicide for a team over time, and it’s not worth a 30-goal a year player even, much less Marcus Rashford maybe approaching that kind of level, maybe not. It will puncture team morale more than any 0-3 loss if a coach lets that slide: a player selling out his team mates making them look bad.

Misunderstand me correctly, I really hope Marcus will get it and flourish, he is one of my favorite players when he puts in a shift, and for several games this season, I even think he has, both ways. I don’t much. Just that he does more or less what Garnacho, Amad, Antony and countless other wingers have learnt to do in half a season - follow his man, follow the plan A in defence and attack as good as he can, see himself as an important player in both attack and defence.

In todays football not even an in-form-Neymar or even Messi is worth carrying if they don’t follow the team plan. Fair enough - players like Messi, Ronaldo, sometimes even Salah, sometimes even Rashford, are liberated from some defensive tasks to invest in their attacking force. Then it’s part of the plan, they aren’t selling out their team mates becuse they know it’s their task on the day to cover the gaps. But to go AWOL when you’re trusted to be there, that’s just not acceptable, it’s off the pitch ASAP, IMO regardless of how many goals you score.

PS. Apologies for all the acronyms. DS

 

[Grande]

Said this since halftime yesterday. It was pre-defined to play Rashford/Garnacho 45min each.

I'm 99.9% sure they will start vs Villa.

Ten Hag said so himself afterwords. Mind you, if Rashford hadn’t been as big a defensive liability as he was an attacking threat, I don’t think that pre-definition would have held at 2-2.

 

[afrocentricity]

You can't deny he looked threatening first half. Everything is caveated by contrast to his own performance standards, however. But for him, it was his best outting for a while.

feck me.... Good on ya

 

[Cassidy]

I never said they don't track back, but it's not the obsession that it seems to be with our fans. Additionally, those teams have managers who set them up properly and typically dominate possession, which means they aren't required to defend as much as they would under Ten Hag's more chaotic, basketball-like tactics

They can dominate because their forwards defend like demons

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

They can dominate because their forwards defend like demons

Are you saying that if we had Martinelli and Saka, for example, we'd all of a sudden start dominating games? Nah, I think i'll have to disagree with you on that one.

 

[BeretWearingEnt]

Are you saying that if we had Martinelli and Saka, for example, we'd all of a sudden start dominating games? Nah, I think i'll have to disagree with you on that one.

We’d be a lot closer to doing it, would be my assessment. Two wingers who are secure in possession, tactically switched on, and aggressive in their defensive work at all times. It’s no coincidence that the right hand side has been better this season than the left. Diallo has been performing as I’ve just described. Rashford hasn’t, and we’re getting rinsed down that side time after time.

His performances are much improved though it has to be said, and that’s great to see. But watch how Villa’s wide men (who I don’t rate as highly as Rashford) perform, and you’ll see that attitude and work rate are non-negotiable in a system based structure.

 

[Doracle]

We’d be a lot closer to doing it, would be my assessment. Two wingers who are secure in possession, tactically switched on, and aggressive in their defensive work at all times. It’s no coincidence that the right hand side has been better this season than the left. Diallo has been performing as I’ve just described. Rashford hasn’t, and we’re getting rinsed down that side time after time.

His performances are much improved though it has to be said, and that’s great to see. But watch how Villa’s wide men (who I don’t rate as highly as Rashford) perform, and you’ll see that attitude and work rate are non-negotiable in a system based structure.

Just curious but which side are we without a recognised fullback?

 

[Cassidy]

Are you saying that if we had Martinelli and Saka, for example, we'd all of a sudden start dominating games? Nah, I think i'll have to disagree with you on that one.

No Im saying its a component. Its not only Martinelli and Saka too. Its Odegard and Havertz too. Plus the entire midfield. Their off the ball work is extremely good and there is a clear difference in work rate between teams that dominate (City and Arsenal but also Liverpool and Spurs etc) and United

You won’t dominate in this league without the work rate. So I don’t really understand anyone complaining about wingers tracking back when all the top sides do it. Who the heck do we think our wide players are?

 

[BeretWearingEnt]

Just curious but which side are we without a recognised fullback?

I know you’re Rashford’s number one defender here, so I’ll ignore the needlessly sarcastic phrasing of the question.

No argument from me that Dalot has undoubtedly started poorly this season. Does that stop Rashford from pressing, tracking his man, maintaining the shape of the team, passing well, etc.? The left side has been a disaster, and if the fullback is playing out of position and struggling, surely that would trigger a player to be more compact and diligent in their defensive work? I’m not sure that’s the gotcha that you think it is.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

We’d be a lot closer to doing it, would be my assessment. Two wingers who are secure in possession, tactically switched on, and aggressive in their defensive work at all times. It’s no coincidence that the right hand side has been better this season than the left. Diallo has been performing as I’ve just described. Rashford hasn’t, and we’re getting rinsed down that side time after time.

His performances are much improved though it has to be said, and that’s great to see. But watch how Villa’s wide men (who I don’t rate as highly as Rashford) perform, and you’ll see that attitude and work rate are non-negotiable in a system based structure.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if the system was working. Ten Hag has tried numerous wingers, but the same issues persist. Are we really saying all of our wingers are poor off the ball? That’s simply not the case. The real problem is that our manager repeatedly fails to set the team up in a way that maximizes their strengths, both on and off the ball. And what’s more frustrating is that he's had three years to figure this out.

If Rashford and others aren’t adhering to his pressing methods, why are they still being picked so frequently? It’s becoming a pattern of excuse after excuse for Ten Hag. Let's be real: the only reason we’re focusing on our wingers' defensive work is because they haven’t contributed much going forward, and our results have been poor.

Look back at the season when we finished third. Rashford was scoring regularly, and, for the most part, we were a solid defensive unit, barring the first two games and a few slip-ups against top sides. Back then, no one was talking about Rashford’s lack of effort because he was delivering. Ten Hag needs to figure out how to get that version of Rashford back. Because, let’s be honest, none of our current attackers (maybe Højlund aside) come close to replicating Rashford’s best season at United.

 

[BeretWearingEnt]

We wouldn't be having this conversation if the system was working. Ten Hag has tried numerous wingers, but the same issues persist. Are we really saying all of our wingers are poor off the ball? That’s simply not the case. The real problem is that our manager repeatedly fails to set the team up in a way that maximizes their strengths, both on and off the ball. And what’s more frustrating is that he's had three years to figure this out.

If Rashford and others aren’t adhering to his pressing methods, why are they still being picked so frequently? It’s becoming a pattern of excuse after excuse for Ten Hag. Let's be real: the only reason we’re focusing on our wingers' defensive work is because they haven’t contributed much going forward, and our results have been poor.

Look back at the season when we finished third. Rashford was scoring regularly, and, for the most part, we were a solid defensive unit, barring the first two games and a few slip-ups against top sides. Back then, no one was talking about Rashford’s lack of effort because he was delivering. Ten Hag needs to figure out how to get that version of Rashford back. Because, let’s be honest, none of our current attackers (maybe Højlund aside) come close to replicating Rashford’s best season at United.

There’s too much here to engage with, and this my last post for the day. So I’ll keep it brief.

Where did I say it excused the manager of anything. My point was just that with the two wingers you quoted in our team and playing the current system, we’d have more control of games than we do with Marcus, who has only ever thrived in a transition based counter attacking team. And lacks the discipline and intelligence to play in a system focussed team.

That’s not even a slight on him by the way, it’s just a statement based on the observable facts. why he got binned from England, and it’s why he will always be a bit of a weak link in what we’re trying to do. Ideally his output is high enough that you can ignore the deficiencies, and hopefully he gets back to that kind of high output.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

No Im saying its a component. Its not only Martinelli and Saka too. Its Odegard and Havertz too. Plus the entire midfield. Their off the ball work is extremely good and there is a clear difference in work rate between teams that dominate (City and Arsenal but also Liverpool and Spurs etc) and United

You won’t dominate in this league without the work rate. So I don’t really understand anyone complaining about wingers tracking back when all the top sides do it. Who the heck do we think our wide players are?

I’ve seen Rashford press the center-back, only to realize the full-back or someone behind him hasn’t followed suit, forcing him to sprint 50-60 yards just to get back into position. The same thing happens with other players. In my opinion, if our system were more cohesive and less disjointed, our wingers wouldn’t have to cover so much ground unnecessarily.

We’re the only team that plays as if it's a basketball game—frantic and chaotic, which is a term often used to describe our matches. This style simply isn’t sustainable, and it’s why our players are gassed by the 60th minute.

 

[Sandikan]

If we played Porto every week we could pretend the current Rashy is the old Rashy. He was just wandering past their defenders. Ok only scored 1, and that was a little bit of a goalie howler, but was still good to see him do it.

 

[Cassidy]

I’ve seen Rashford press the center-back, only to realize the full-back or someone behind him hasn’t followed suit, forcing him to sprint 50-60 yards just to get back into position. The same thing happens with other players. In my opinion, if our system were more cohesive and less disjointed, our wingers wouldn’t have to cover so much ground unnecessarily.

We’re the only team that plays as if it's a basketball game—frantic and chaotic, which is a term often used to describe our matches. This style simply isn’t sustainable, and it’s why our players are gassed by the 60th minute.

Ive seen it too. My comment clearly stated the whole team lacks it. Also Rashford should not be pressing the CB

 

[Doracle]

Ive seen it too. My comment clearly stated the whole team lacks it. Also Rashford should not be pressing the CB

That’s how TH has it set up though. Rashford presses the CB, he then drops into midfield to cover one of the opposition midfielders and he then sprints out to the wing to try and cover the fullback who has usually by then wandered into space about 30 yards away from him. Absolutely crazy structure.

 

[Cassidy]

That’s how TH has it set up though. Rashford presses the CB, he then drops into midfield to cover one of the opposition midfielders and he then sprints out to the wing to try and cover the fullback who has usually by then wandered into space about 30 yards away from him. Absolutely crazy structure.

This season we have played a 424 structure with Bruno and (Holjlund/Zirkzee) supposed to be pressing CBs

Rashford is actually most of the time trying to block the passing lane into the wide midfield and also at the same time covering the fullback (which is where you see him sprinting back). I think thats a bit of a broken structure and the line behind should be covering that passing lane and our fullbacks should be engaging alot higher

 

[Pexbo]

That’s how TH has it set up though. Rashford presses the CB, he then drops into midfield to cover one of the opposition midfielders and he then sprints out to the wing to try and cover the fullback who has usually by then wandered into space about 30 yards away from him. Absolutely crazy structure.

Rashford doesn’t do any of these things what are you talking about?

 

[Doracle]

Rashford doesn’t do any of these things what are you talking about?

I don’t know what you are watching but, other than he doesn’t always press the CB, that’s exactly what he does in this defensive structure.

 

[Winrar]

He’s very Southgate like in that he just doesn’t react to what’s happening in the game. He will have decided in advance that he was giving Rashford 45 mins and Garnacho 45 mins and what was happening on the pitch was then irrelevant.

Shh, you’re not supposed to say that. Give him enough time and ETH will turn into the next Fergie.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Ive seen it too. My comment clearly stated the whole team lacks it. Also Rashford should not be pressing the CB

Initially, you implied that our inability to dominate games stems from our wingers—particularly Rashford—not putting in enough defensive intensity off the ball. However, that's an oversimplification. The real issue is more structural: teams like City and Arsenal have managers who set them up tactically to control possession, which naturally reduces the amount of defending they need to do. In contrast, Ten Hag's approach often results in more chaotic, end-to-end play, making it seem like defensive work is lacking, when in reality it's the system that exposes us.

Since then, you've shifted your stance, now pointing to the entire team rather than just the wingers. This change in narrative highlights that the problem runs deeper than individual players; it's a systemic issue affecting the whole squad. It's not just about pressing or tracking back—it's about the overall tactical setup and how it fails to bring balance and control to our game.

 

[Cassidy]

Initially, you implied that our inability to dominate games stems from our wingers—particularly Rashford—not putting in enough defensive intensity off the ball. However, that's an oversimplification. The real issue is more structural: teams like City and Arsenal have managers who set them up tactically to control possession, which naturally reduces the amount of defending they need to do. In contrast, Ten Hag's approach often results in more chaotic, end-to-end play, making it seem like defensive work is lacking, when in reality it's the system that exposes us.

Since then, you've shifted your stance, now pointing to the entire team rather than just the wingers. This change in narrative highlights that the problem runs deeper than individual players; it's a systemic issue affecting the whole squad. It's not just about pressing or tracking back—it's about the overall tactical setup and how it fails to bring balance and control to our game.

I didnt mention anything particularly about Rashford. You decided to post something about how our fans are obsessed with tracking back vs other clubs. I pointed out the tracking back their wingers do is essential to their ability to dominate and we wouldnt be able to dominate without it. Thats all our wingers not just Rashford

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

There’s too much here to engage with, and this my last post for the day. So I’ll keep it brief.

Where did I say it excused the manager of anything. My point was just that with the two wingers you quoted in our team and playing the current system, we’d have more control of games than we do with Marcus, who has only ever thrived in a transition based counter attacking team. And lacks the discipline and intelligence to play in a system focussed team.

That’s not even a slight on him by the way, it’s just a statement based on the observable facts. why he got binned from England, and it’s why he will always be a bit of a weak link in what we’re trying to do. Ideally his output is high enough that you can ignore the deficiencies, and hopefully he gets back to that kind of high output.

I completely disagree. This is the same Rashford who broke through in a highly possession based system under Van Gaal. Look at players like Son, Doku, Salah, and Martinelli—all of whom share similar attributes to Rashford. They have no problems playing for their teams. In fact, I'd argue that Rashford is more creative than most of them, especially with his passing and through balls. Therefore, it's puzzling why you believe he wouldn’t excel in a possession-based team. It feels very like speculation on your part.

 

[Bobski]

He hasn't been great but has still been comfortably Utds best attacker this season but he and Bruno have basically been pre selected as the problem this season so average performances are seen as shit.

 

[roseguy64]

I think your last statement pretty much says it all. The tactics, or lack thereof, do not play to his strengths. I really have no idea why anyone would expect him to be fundamentally sound defensively and rely on his tracking, he is there to score, period. Defenders incompetence is not good reasoning and continually sending Dalot up high or in the middle hurts the team time and time again. Rashford has speed and potential, the current management does not use him to his strengths, speed up front and he rarely gets useful service. This is called dysfunctional planning and usage. Sure I will agree that some of his shortfalls are his alone, however this guy can be a star or a goat depending on his usage.
One thing I will state, an almost bright point with Hojlund, he made a play where he fought off a guy just before midfield and was flying that reminded me of Ruud in the day. The only thing missing was the hair. My first thought was "Wow, RVN is paying off". Then as he approached the box rather that push it in 1v1, he fricken stopped and the play fizzled to nothing. WTH??

Agree with this. The tactics ETH has expose his wide players and don't help them. Why the hell would I want Rashford to track back all the time? He should be mostly mid-pitch and high up the pitch as an outlet along with Hojlund/Zirkzee.

Make use of his best attributes not highlight his worst ones.

 

[Sky1981]

I completely disagree. This is the same Rashford who broke through in a highly possession based system under Van Gaal. Look at players like Son, Doku, Salah, and Martinelli—all of whom share similar attributes to Rashford. They have no problems playing for their teams. In fact, I'd argue that Rashford is more creative than most of them, especially with his passing and through balls. Therefore, it's puzzling why you believe he wouldn’t excel in a possession-based team. It feels very like speculation on your part.

Rashford is creative? Stopped reading there. He's a one trick pony

 

[Pughnichi]

I'm convinced Ten Hag is doing guess work during these matches. Rashford was frightening them. And he took him off at half time. No proper manager would have done that. Nobody looks at the biggest threat and goes "let's give them something less to worry about." Absolute plonker.

It was such a bizarre decision. I’ve hammered Rashford these past 18 months. Unashamedly. But he has arguably been our best player so far this season. A few goals and generally looking threatening. That first half v Porto was the best I think he has played in a long time. I was convinced he must be injured.

 

[Threesus]

We should sell him for his own good and ours. He has become the symbol of everything that has been wrong with us in the last 10 years, rightly or wrongly. I hope the new management has profiled a good wide forward, because I don’t see it with garnacho.

 

[Marwood]

We should sell him for his own good and ours. He has become the symbol of everything that has been wrong with us in the last 10 years, rightly or wrongly. I hope the new management has profiled a good wide forward, because I don’t see it with garnacho.

You can't sell someone because of perceived symbolism.

It just comes down to performances vs what we could get for him.