[MyOnlySolskjaer]

We dont appreciate LVG enough for developing young players. If Jose was the coach at the time not sure Rashford ever would have got the chance.
Its unfortunate that neither Rashford or Martial seem to have improved since LVG but both are still young and I see great things.

Rashford isnt far from putting it together and when he does, should be absolutely elite. Needs playing time though, for sure. I guess whatever I say about Rashford goes for Martial, too. They both are similar level, have similar strengths and weaknesses.Both lack a little bit of confidence, decision making and intangibles to be elite

Then again can we evaluate them accurately under Jose? No one looks good. Sanchez looks average. Rashford and Martial looked far better under LVG than the present level Sanchez.

I’m grateful for the players getting a chance but I wouldn’t class the chances players got as a planned integration. The only reason Rashford got his chance was because of freak injuries to all of our strikers and even Martial during a warmup. Likewise; McNair, Blackett etc. They got their opportunity because of an injury crisis to our defence. It wasn’t good management. It was throwing shit and hoping it sticks.

We had an unbalanced squad full of injuries, it was just chance that Rashford stepped up but the likes of Blackett didn’t. It was Russian roulette management, not development ala, Poch giving minutes to new signings like Alli, Dier and them proving themselves. It wasn’t a sustainable method, maybe it works at Ajax’s academy but the truth that people won’t admit is not all of our youth prospects are great.

 

[sam147]

Im not getting into this as it will derail the topic but Jose's inability to develop some of the players that have now become some of the best in the world is well documented.
He holds players back, just like he held De Bruyne, Salah and others back, he is now holding back Rashford.
Dont want to make this about Jose though.
Rashford I think is better than what he's showing now, just like all of our players but like I said, dont want to make this about Jose. As it relates to Rashford and Martial, Im sure both will excel once we have a new manager. Wait and see.

Held back DeBruyne? Yet the only club that wanted him was a midtable german team. Held back Salah who then was only wanted i Italy. Its selective. At that time DeBruyne clearly didnt fit Jose's system and meet his needs. Its down to him to put in the work not the manager. Jose won the league so how bad was it without him. He was main man at Wolfsburg and put in the work. Tell me has Jose not developed Lingard? Did Ozil not have his best season under Jose? Did Jose not vastly improve the quality of the squad he had at inter and porto? Did Ronaldo not have his best season under Jose? Only one thing in common the teams had proper professionals and if they weren't professional Jose rightly lambasted them. The problem with fans like you is you are as weak minded as players like Martial.

 

[Sky1981]

Held back DeBruyne? Yet the only club that wanted him was a midtable german team. Held back Salah who then was only wanted i Italy. Its selective. At that time DeBruyne clearly didnt fit Jose's system and meet his needs. Its down to him to put in the work not the manager. Jose won the league so how bad was it without him. He was main man at Wolfsburg and put in the work. Tell me has Jose not developed Lingard? Did Ozil not have his best season under Jose? Did Jose not vastly improve the quality of the squad he had at inter and porto? Did Ronaldo not have his best season under Jose? Only one thing in common the teams had proper professionals and if they weren't professional Jose rightly lambasted them. The problem with fans like you is you are as weak minded as players like Martial.

I bet most of us didn't even realized rashford potential if not for lvg forced to play him and he fortunately scores in his debut.

Easy to say in a hindsight eh.

 

[Woziak]

What's exactly the difference between playing 4-3-3 with Matic as DMF in front of 2 CBs and playing 3-5-2 with Matic still dropping between the 2 CBs ? He can drop and support them in 4-3-3 then.

Rashford, Martail, Sanchez and Lukaku should compete for 2 central positions to build up partnerships they all come In narrow so we should play to their strengths. We actually don't have any real wingers otherwise I would be advocating 442. We will never score more than 70 PL goal playing this way and you can no longer compete for the PL by scoring 67 to 73 goals like most of Jose's teams have in previous years to win the PL and we don't have a defence that will conceded 18 to 24 PL goals

 

[el3mel]

Rashford, Martail, Sanchez and Lukaku should compete for 2 central positions to build up partnerships they all come In narrow so we should play to their strengths. We actually don't have any real wingers otherwise I would be advocating 442. We will never score more than 70 PL goal playing this way and you can no longer compete for the PL by scoring 67 to 73 goals like most of Jose's teams have in previous years to win the PL and we don't have a defence that will conceded 18 to 24 PL goals

Again, 2 strikers isn't exclusive for 3-5-2. You can play the narrow diamond formation.

 

[Wilt]

Im not getting into this as it will derail the topic but Jose's inability to develop some of the players that have now become some of the best in the world is well documented.
He holds players back, just like he held De Bruyne, Salah and others back, he is now holding back Rashford.
Dont want to make this about Jose though.
Rashford I think is better than what he's showing now, just like all of our players but like I said, dont want to make this about Jose. As it relates to Rashford and Martial, Im sure both will excel once we have a new manager. Wait and see.

"don't want to make this about Jose"

 

[TheRedDevil95]

Again, 2 strikers isn't exclusive for 3-5-2. You can play the narrow diamond formation.

There's not much of a difference between a 3-5-2 and a 4-4-2 narrow diamond though, is there? As for the 4-4-2, when in possession the defensive midfielder would drop in between the centerbacks and the full backs would push forward and we would basically be in a 3-5-2 formation anyway. The difference really comes down to the instruction and positioning of the central centerback/defensive midfielder.

When we play a 4-3-3, it's not like our wingers are hugging the touch line either. If you look at the average positioning of our players against Burnley it's clear Alexis is searching inside almost lining up as a second striker while Lingard is taking the position of a #10. That's very close to a 4-4-2 diamond again.

 

[el3mel]

There's not much of a difference between a 3-5-2 and a 4-4-2 narrow diamond though, is there? As for the 4-4-2, when in possession the defensive midfielder would drop in between the centerbacks and the full backs would push forward and we would basically be in a 3-5-2 formation anyway. The difference really comes down to the instruction and positioning of the central centerback/defensive midfielder.

When we play a 4-3-3, it's not like our wingers are hugging the touch line either. If you look at the average positioning of our players against Burnley it's clear Alexis is searching inside almost lining up as a second striker while Lingard is taking the position of a #10. That's very close to a 4-4-2 diamond again.

That's actually not far away from what I have been saying in my previous posts in this thread.

 

[Silver]

No revisionism from me. In the youth leagues he wasnt a prolific goalscorer. How many assumptions are you going to make in one post? Last season his attitude on the pitch was not that of a 'humble' young player but it was tantrums when he lost the ball. Not to mention the selfishness where he couldve played a simple pass but instead chose to suit. He put himself ahead of the team last season and proved it again vs Burnley. Yes I will scrutinise him harder because he is English but im not a pundit or a journalist. Whereas, Rashford is now being encouraged to leave United to become a prolific goalscorer by pundits rather than being told to work harder on his obvious flaws.

Your entire post is literally full of revisionisms. When exactly was his attitude full of tantrums last season? Please name one game when his attitude was suspect. Please point out where he "put himself ahead of the team last season"? That's rubbish and downright false. And why should he be humble? Great players aren't "humble". Was Cristiano humble? Was Rooney humble? You're judging him by what pundits are saying? Is that the gold standard for you? And what assumptions am I exactly making? It seems to me you're the one going out of your way to make paint a very revisionist picture of Rashford here.

 

[MadDogg]

Your entire post is literally full of revisionisms. When exactly was his attitude full of tantrums last season? Please name one game when his attitude was suspect. Please point out where he "put himself ahead of the team last season"? That's rubbish and downright false. And why should he be humble? Great players aren't "humble". Was Cristiano humble? Was Rooney humble? You're judging him by what pundits are saying? Is that the gold standard for you? And what assumptions am I exactly making? It seems to me you're the one going out of your way to make paint a very revisionist picture of Rashford here.

To be fair, right from the start of last season it was obvious that Rashford was being more selfish than he had been previously. It was mentioned many times on here. Which is fine when it works, but it coincided with his worst season for us and it did cost us sometimes. There were many times he tried to do the hard thing himself instead of the easier pass to a teammate who was in a better position.

The guy you are responding to is obviously going overboard with it, but there is some truth in what he says. I'd call it poor decision making likely based on trying to prove himself, rather than arrogance though.

 

[Silver]

To be fair, right from the start of last season it was obvious that Rashford was being more selfish than he had been previously. It was mentioned many times on here. Which is fine when it works, but it coincided with his worst season for us and it did cost us sometimes. There were many times he tried to do the hard thing himself instead of the easier pass to a teammate who was in a better position.

The guy you are responding to is obviously going overboard with it, but there is some truth in what he says. I'd call it poor decision making likely based on trying to prove himself, rather than arrogance though.

Really? Where are you getting this from? Cause the stats show that it was his best season so far in terms of goals and assists. That's why this kind of reasoning is baffling.

 

[MadDogg]

Really? Where are you getting this from? Cause the stats show that it was his best season so far in terms of goals and assists. That's why this kind of reasoning is baffling.

More in terms of performances, rather than stats. His average performance seemed significantly lower than it had previously. Maybe that's just me mis-remembering his earlier seasons, but last season he was definitely more selfish and had more poor decision making. Outside of a few very good performances, he was distinctly average last season (and that's being kind to be honest). It's what makes the media push for him to play more so ridiculous - he's already playing more than what his actual performances warrant.

 

[Silver]

Well at some point stats and performances do line up... not saying that his decision making was the best but if he contributed more goals and assists compared to his previous two seasons then it's fair to say that he was more impactful. Maybe he tried more things which didn't pay off but he still made the same if not more of an impact compared to his previous seasons. And again, he wasn't stellar last season but he certainly wasn't distinctly average. And he certainly didn't cost us games. It was literally his 2nd season as a proper first team player and his best one at that. If he was actually average then there's no way he would have gone to Russia. It's baffling to see the double standards applied to players like him and Lukaku as opposed to someone like Martial.

 

[Woziak]

Again, 2 strikers isn't exclusive for 3-5-2. You can play the narrow diamond formation.

I couldn't care if we played 352 3412 4312 4132 4222 as long as we play 2 CFW's who are narrow. Sanchez is a complete waste as a winger and we do not have any natural width.
Great result today but 8 goals from 5 games with Lukaku netting 50% is what will happen after 38 games with the team scoring 60 to 65 and Lukaku getting 25 we need CFW partnerships to truly punish teams! Not rely on 1 CFW who may or may not be in form !!

 

[MikeKing]

Really? Where are you getting this from? Cause the stats show that it was his best season so far in terms of goals and assists. That's why this kind of reasoning is baffling.

Having a better player than Rashford, or should I say a more dependable player, would surely benefit us. This season and last. Fortunately for him, we choose to ignore that and gamble on his chances to develop quickly. Great pressure for a kid, but it is what we do, and he is lucky we are doing that really. We easily could have let him go on loan and brought in someone to push him back further, but he doesn't have much competition yet is struggling for stability in his performances.

 

[LolYo]

Having a better player than Rashford, or should I say a more dependable player, would surely benefit us. This season and last. Fortunately for him, we choose to ignore that and gamble on his chances to develop quickly. Great pressure for a kid, but it is what we do, and he is lucky we are doing that really. We easily could have let him go on loan and brought in someone to push him back further, but he doesn't have much competition yet is struggling for stability in his performances.

We brought in Sanchez who was supposed to be a world beater and he keeps getting consistant minutes at the expense of Rashford. Unwarranted IMO.
Rashford should be one of the first names on the team sheet IMO and I would personally play him behind the striker.

You cant just find a better player than Rashford cuz theres not many of them around. Rashford is class, just needs good management and the opportunity. Fortunately, he is getting it for England. For the time being its good enough I guess.

 

[MikeKing]

We brought in Sanchez who was supposed to be a world beater and he keeps getting consistant minutes at the expense of Rashford. Unwarranted IMO.
Rashford should be one of the first names on the team sheet IMO and I would personally play him behind the striker.

You cant just find a better player than Rashford cuz theres not many of them around. Rashford is class, just needs good management and the opportunity. Fortunately, he is getting it for England. For the time being its good enough I guess.

What has been going on with Sanchez is unfortunate but neither Rashford or Martial has proven anything other than great talent through form in patches. Rashford and Martial did well last season statistically but when it comes to being relied on in certain matches, they have been disappointing. Im a big fan of both, but you can't fault the club for bringing in Alexis when you have Mata as your only attacker over 25 or something.

 

[An Irish Red]

Rashford should be one of the first names on the team sheet IMO and I would personally play him behind the striker.

You cant just find a better player than Rashford cuz theres not many of them around.

He's been mostly poor for the last two seasons and has done nothing to deserve being first choice, never mind one of the first names on the teamsheet.

There's plenty of players better than him as well. City have eight forwards on their books better than him, and that's just City. You dramatically overrate him.

 

[UncleBob]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-rashford-stance-after-jose-mourinho-response

 

[Mcking]

What's exactly the difference between playing 4-3-3 with Matic as DMF in front of 2 CBs and playing 3-5-2 with Matic still dropping between the 2 CBs ? He can drop and support them in 4-3-3 then.

For a start, the wingbacks attack simultaneously in a 3 at the back unlike 433.
The main difference though if you ignore the two-striker thing is the midfielders and fullbacks. If Matic drops to defence, then the CBs have to cover the whole width and one of the other CMs have to hold with both wingbacks pushing forward consistently unlike in a prototype 433 where the DMF holds and the other two mids are free to attack with the fullbacks alternating btw attacking and tucking in.

 

[el3mel]

For a start, the wingbacks attack simultaneously in a 3 at the back unlike 433.
The main difference though if you ignore the two-striker thing is the midfielders and fullbacks. If Matic drops to defence, then the CBs have to cover the whole width and one of the other CMs have to hold with both wingbacks pushing forward consistently unlike in a prototype 433 where the DMF holds and the other two mids are free to attack with the fullbacks alternating btw attacking and tucking in.

From attacking point of view it's actually better to have a fullback and a winger overloaping and offloading their flank than to have one wingback responsible for the whole width alone though.

Our problem is we don't have good set of wingers and only one fullback who thinks about overlapping (Shaw).

 

[Drainy]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...-rashford-stance-after-jose-mourinho-response

Rooney rarely played as an out and out striker for us until his mid twenties. He played off the striker or fairly often on the left.

 

[UncleBob]

Rooney rarely played as an out and out striker for us until his mid twenties. He played off the striker or fairly often on the left.

That was what you got out of the article ?

 

[Drainy]

That was what you got out of the article ?

Roughly that Carragher thinks that Rashford should leave to become a top class striker because Welbeck played out wide and never kicked on, and Rooney played as a striker while developing because he was a special talent and became a great player.

 

[ZupZup]

Carragher also mentions Firmino at Liverpool... who was not a striker until Klopp decided to start playing him there a couple of years ago when he was 24.

 

[UncleBob]

Roughly that Carragher thinks that Rashford should leave to become a top class striker because Welbeck played out wide and never kicked on, and Rooney played as a striker while developing because he was a special talent and became a great player.

See, herein lies a major part of the issue. In the very instant it was suggested that it might be better for Rashford to leave United, it's considered an attack on the club and people go all defensive and focus on everything but the main point.

Like going on about number of appearances, or complaining that it's incorrect since Rooney rarely played as an out and out striker, or that Firmino rarely played as an striker until Klopp took charge, or pretending that Carraghers point is that since Welbeck flopped after playing out wide the same has to happen with Rashford.

"All of the stats Jose has listed are spot on. But another stat that is spot on is that Rashford has only started 12 times as a centre-forward in the Premier League. He burst onto the scene as a striker, and said he wants to be a striker.

He may have changed, he might be happy playing on the left or on the right and staying at Man Utd."

".....If Rashford doesn't want to play centre-forward, he should stay. If he does, I feel he'd have to move away."

Carraghers point ref Welbeck wasn't that it has to happen with Rashford as well, just that it's a familiar fate. Remember the debates regarding John O'Shea when he was breaking into the first team, Wes Brown ? There were quite a few similar debates, about players being used in other positions than their natural positions due to being multi-talented (for a lack of better words), and if it would hinder them excelling into becoming top players in their natural positions

In regards to Wayne Rooney it's a bit of a pointless debate, he was more or less given a key role where he excelled into becoming a sublime player. Not sure if people actually remember just how good he was in his younger days..It's fine that he didn't play as an out and out striker, but he certainly played as a striker. Fergie view was that the overall package of Wayne Rooney was better off with more freedom, instead of perhaps taking away the aggression and hunger that made him into the player he was in the first place. It's not like he was stuck out wide as a winger with a lot of defensive duties.

Not sure why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The debate isn't if Rashford gets to play enough, because he certainly does, the debate is if Rashford playing as a winger is going to hinder him into becoming a brilliant striker, which he certainly has the potential to become. Is he him playing as a winger going to turn him into a good enough winger, emergency striker, or might the lessons he learn as a winger turn him into a brilliant striker ?

People will always have different opinions, which is fair enough, it's not a clear cut yes/no answer to this, just don't make the debate about a whole lot of other things.

 

[cyberman]

Roughly that Carragher thinks that Rashford should leave to become a top class striker because Welbeck played out wide and never kicked on, and Rooney played as a striker while developing because he was a special talent and became a great player.

Almost all of the mobile / pacey forwards have developed their talents coming from the wide positions.
Carragher is talking absolute shit here and this is the problem with modern punditry, a pundit can't admit he got it wrong so the debate loses focus of its original point.

 

[UncleBob]

Almost all of the mobile / pacey forwards have developed their talents coming from the wide positions.

Like ?

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Like ?

Pretty sure he's going a bit overboard but off the top of my head;

Henry, Aubameyang, Griezmann, Lacazette, Dybala, Agüero, Gabriel Jesus, Messi, Neymar.

Some of those are a bit dubious though.

 

[cyberman]

Like ?

Henry, Ronaldo, Messi, Sanchez ( arguably) Neymar, Mbappe..
Its not even developing as a striker, many mobile forwards are playing wide so they can drift in and avoid man marking..
Salah, Mbappe, Mane, Sterling, Hazard, Martial, Dybala, Ronaldo, Bale, Sanchez are all basically forwards with their movement and how the teams are built to accommodate them.
The greatest club side in history had two of the finest strikers of their generation in Henry and Villa starting out wide for them.
Inter won the CL with Etoo shifted wide, us with Rooney..
It really is a nonsense.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Henry, Ronaldo, Messi, Sanchez ( arguably) Neymar, Mbappe..
Its not even developing as a striker, many mobile forwards are playing wide so they can drift in and avoid man marking..
Salah, Mbappe, Mane, Sterling, Hazard, Martial, Dybala, Ronaldo, Bale, Sanchez are all basically forwards with their movement and how the teams are built to accommodate them.
The greatest club side in history had two of the finest strikers of their generation in Henry and Villa starting out wide for them.
Inter won the CL with Etoo shifted wide, us with Rooney..
It really is a nonsense.

The last thing any of those forwards would need is to be pushed out wide and to primarily supply a target man.

Rashford & Martial are not playing as LF or RF at United - they are playing like wingers who are set up to create chances for a central target man as much as possible if not then create chances for themselves.

Sterling under Jose would not be finishing off moves at the far post under Jose & would be much far across the touchline trying to cross the ball in to Lukaku - the same with David Villa, the same with Henry.

If Jose wants to utilize Rashford as a forward - he has to first be placed as a forward, give the free role of being a forward & have someone else create chances that is from the centre of midfield & not the wingers themselves. That primarily results from stpping playing with one forward as a target man and playing with 2 or more that take up channels.

David Villa hardly created chances - he finished them off. The same with sane, Mane, Salah, Henry and many more. They also had creative central players like false 9,s such as messi, firmhinh0, supportive strikers like Bergkamp, CAM like Iniesta etc.

None of our wingers are currently playing within the forward channels - the areas you see Salah beating a player or two before being straight through on goals.

They are playing far out wide higher up the pitch - mainly to be suppliers of the team rather than forwards.

If Jose was so happy to make this change - he would have played with 2 strikers much more but he hasn't because this removes the creativity from outwide from the wingers & the fullbacks to the centre to only pogba, Matic, Fred & Fellaini.

He creates chances with the use of Sanchez, Mata, Rashford, Martial - not use them as the end products.

 

[UncleBob]

It really is a nonsense.

I agree. You're basically listing a shitload of players where the vast majority aren't strikers and never have been. The debate is about Rashford as a striker, not everything in the world that could possible be defined as a "forward". Cristiano Ronaldo was at a later stage in his career moved into a free forward role because of him being a goalscoring machine, he evolved from being a winger, it's hardly comparable. Even Henry isn't all that a good example. Henry was more or less a striker being used as a winger, until his potential was channeled into becoming more of a striker.

 

[cyberman]

The last thing any of those forwards would need is to be pushed out wide and to primarily supply a target man.

Rashford & Martial are not playing as LF or RF at United - they are playing like wingers who are set up to create chances for a central target man as much as possible if not then create chances for themselves.

Sterling under Jose would not be finishing off moves at the far post under Jose & would be much far across the touchline trying to cross the ball in to Lukaku - the same with David Villa, the same with Henry.

If Jose wants to utilize Rashford as a forward - he has to first be placed as a forward, give the free role of being a forward & have someone else create chances that is from the centre of midfield & not the wingers themselves. That primarily results from stpping playing with one forward as a target man and playing with 2 or more that take up channels.

David Villa hardly created chances - he finished them off. The same with sane, Mane, Salah, Henry and many more. They also had creative central players like false 9,s such as messi, firmhinh0, supportive strikers like Bergkamp, CAM like Iniesta etc.

None of our wingers are currently playing within the forward channels - the areas you see Salah beating a player or two before being straight through on goals.

They are playing far out wide higher up the pitch - mainly to be suppliers of the team rather than forwards.

If Jose was so happy to make this change - he would have played with 2 strikers much more but he hasn't because this removes the creativity from outwide from the wingers & the fullbacks to the centre to only pogba, Matic, Fred & Fellaini.

He creates chances with the use of Sanchez, Mata, Rashford, Martial - not use them as the end products.

They don't keep the width though. Martial for example was always coming in and getting shots off. Mata was forever drifting in while Sanchez and Lingard rarely hold the width.
We don't have wingers and i wish we did. We are too narrow for a reason

 

[TMDaines]

Frustrating game on the surface for Rashford, especially on the counter, but actually some good underlying stuff. Had the most shots at the time of his substitution, hit the post, created two chances, completed 2/3 crosses. Hopefully back against West Ham.

 

[Minimalist]

I think he would infuriate most teammates.

 

[sam147]

Another Rashford disasterclass. Poor freekick, poor touches around the box and shocking decision making on the counter. He is more of a liability to the team at this moment than a positive in the squad. Glad he is not available against wolves as Jesse offers more from RW than he does. Time and time again he fails to play a simple pass when on the counter. Thats not something you blame on confidence but purely down to footballing brain and ability. Yet we will see fans making excuses saying he is better as a ST. For Martials goal he was literally running into his path. I havent seen a player make so many bad decisions on a pitch since Welbz tried to chip Neuer.

 

[el3mel]

TBF to his critics, I'm starting to see why they were comparing him to Welbeck and Walcott.

He's our new version of them.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Frustrating game on the surface for Rashford, especially on the counter, but actually some good underlying stuff. Had the most shots at the time of his substitution, hit the post, created two chances, completed 2/3 crosses. Hopefully back against West Ham.

His flick to hit the post was quality. He displayed a lot of negative stuff too, he needs to improve and stop taking free kicks.

 

[Member 109952]

Maintain that he'll never be a winger or a wide forward, he's severely lacking in technique for it. People make fun of Welbeck but I genuinely think Rashford has worse technique with the ball than Welbeck has, I've never known a player to so consistenly run the ball out of play.

He has a good shot on him and can make good runs, so I think he can still make a pretty decent striker, but I'm not sure if it'll be for us. I think he's closer to the likes of Solanke than he is to the Agueros really.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Said it before and I thought I’d get more stick for it...but I really don’t think he’s all that.