Manchester United refuse to launch female team
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on about the same level as "I'm not a racist but..."Professional sports. Nike and adidas would sell their products to girls/women regardless of professional women's soccer leagues because they are the dominant sports apparel companies in the world. The effect of professional women's sports on revenue is minimal relative to everything else. Of course girls and women who play sports are going to buy the gear, but it's not because they watched a NWSL match or WNBA game. It's because Nike/adidas/Under Armour have become ubiquitous from men's professional sports. Nike is where it is today because they lucked up by sponsoring the 3rd pick in the 1984 NBA Draft who became one of the most recognizable athletes in the world.
That may be related to the fact that the majority of people on here are male and a lot of people on here have no real connection to grassroots football (which is not a criticism).
In 1985 there were 200,000 registerred female players in Europe, now there are 1.2 million. The numbers are growing, would be nice to be catching that wave early and not be jumping on the bandwagon later.
It could be a good PR exercise that could potentially create more lifelong female supporters of the club. And it is a drop in the hat it would not take much money to run. Plus we can not allow Chelsea or City to have the high ground on anything.
For the same reason noone really cares about youth football outside of your own team's prospects. The standard isnt high enough and in a sport like football that means its not as good to watch. There may be a few hundred watching a game but is that enough to divert resources and attention away from the main team, when unlike the youth setup there will never be a carryover?
We better be. Just the idea of scrapping our women's team in 2005 while the number of women's football teams is on the rise worldwide was unacceptable to begin with. I'm sure there are plenty of girls and women who would like to say that they can be part of Manchester United Football Club as players as much as boys and men aspire to.
Some people here just think about the monetary aspect of the debate. You are worse than the Glazers if you do.
Didn't she run in the olympics?
Christine Sinclair
Kadeisha Buchanan
Homare Sawa
Aya Miyama
Alex Morgan
Megan Rapinoe
Nadine Angerer
Celia Sasic
Eugénie Le Sommer
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At the end of the first Premier League season, in 1992/93, the aggregate attendance was 9.75m and 69.6 per cent available seats were sold. By the 2010/11 season, the aggregate had increased to 13.4m and an occupancy rate to 92.2 per cent. The Clubs have worked hard to ensure that Premier League football is attractive and accessible.
That fan base is also increasingly diverse, with the Premier League attracting more fans from all parts of society. Around a quarter of those who attend games are women.
This was back in 2010/11. Its awesome, the game is becoming more diverse which is a great thing. Go look at any footage from before 1980 and try and spot a female. There is a trend underway, its a really healthy one. It would be nice to be part of it on the playing side of things.
I know its the dailymail but just look through the fans in the photos. Lots of female fans. I have a newspaper from when we won the FA Cup in 1977, couldnt find a single female in the photos of fans during the cup parade.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ade-trophy-pay-tribute-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html
That fan base is also increasingly diverse, with the Premier League attracting more fans from all parts of society. Around a quarter of those who attend games are women.
This was back in 2010/11. Its awesome, the game is becoming more diverse which is a great thing. Go look at any footage from before 1980 and try and spot a female. There is a trend underway, its a really healthy one. It would be nice to be part of it on the playing side of things.
I know its the dailymail but just look through the fans in the photos. Lots of female fans. I have a newspaper from when we won the FA Cup in 1977, couldnt find a single female in the photos of fans during the cup parade.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ade-trophy-pay-tribute-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html
But would it not be better for the club to launch a ladies team in 2 or 3 years time, which contains 7 or 8 girls who came up through the club? Rather than launching a team today on the back of media pressure, but made up of 11 players we've bought from other clubs?
I would love to see a Ladies team tomorrow but dont think its a major slight on the club that it doesnt have one yet. We already have girls academies in place so the idea that the press are pushing that we are not doing our bit for womens football is unfair. The idea you are pushing for I would love, think that would fit in with the clubs ethos nicely. My battle is the arguments against having a womens team which i think miss whats going on in womens football. I think Man Utd would be a better club once it has a Womens team. Hope its sooner rather than later to be honest.
I'd agree with all of that. If we had a womens team based on developing young female players, I think it would be a cracking addition to the club.
@Stack You keep mentioning female fans and that they'd like to see female football. This isn't obvious to me. Most of the female football fans i know, don't know much about the womens game and I'd wager that just like the WNBA the majority of the viewers and attendees will be male. Do you have numbers that suggest otherwise, apart from the very convincing daily mail picture.
Also you haven't addressed the business argument at all. Like it or not Manchester united has come a long way since the Busby babes era and the lack of a senior womens side might have no negative effect on the club.
Gotta agree with Rowem and Ar87 here.
Also you haven't addressed the business argument at all. Like it or not Manchester united has come a long way since the Busby babes era and the lack of a senior womens side might have no negative effect on the club.
Gotta agree with Rowem and Ar87 here.
You could celebrate a special kind of Double...
Bayern's male and females where Bundesliga Champions last season and celebrated together with the fans on Marienplatz
whereas Wolfsburg's male and female teams both won the German Cup
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There is some local Bayern supporters that go to all U23 matches - and others that watch the womens' matches. Bayern has a basketball team, too - in which they started to invest 5 years ago. The Audi Dome sells out every match and the crowd there are mainly original Bayern football fans that are interested in basketball, too. I do not think that it there are many original womens' or youths' football fans - they follow that teams additionally to the normal football team.
Part of the disconnect here, is that it's not an apple to apple comparison here. Meaning, men's football and women's football are two entirely different thing, and I'm not talking about just the man vs. female dynamic.
It takes a truly talented player who has risen to the top after years of trials and success to make it onto a EPL team. It is insanely difficult and impossible for nearly all human beings to rise to this level. The bar is admittedly far far lower for women professional footballers, simply because most women never even kick a football in their lifetimes, let alone try to make a career out of it.
That being said, sports and activities where women DO have high levels of participation and thus, great levels of competition (figure skating, gymastics, track and field, golf, tennis) do draw a lot of interest and make serious $$$.
I hate to say it, but so long as that remains the case (meaning, most women never even trying to be a professional footballer, or basketball player, or whatnot), women's football or basketball will always be a sideshow. Most people just aren't interested in seeing the "best out of maybe 100 people who even tried" kick around a football. Until the standard of competition in women's sport increases, along with participation levels, you really can't fault publicly listed companies with shareholders who care about profitability for not really being bothered to invest millions in funding a team.
It takes a truly talented player who has risen to the top after years of trials and success to make it onto a EPL team. It is insanely difficult and impossible for nearly all human beings to rise to this level. The bar is admittedly far far lower for women professional footballers, simply because most women never even kick a football in their lifetimes, let alone try to make a career out of it.
That being said, sports and activities where women DO have high levels of participation and thus, great levels of competition (figure skating, gymastics, track and field, golf, tennis) do draw a lot of interest and make serious $$$.
I hate to say it, but so long as that remains the case (meaning, most women never even trying to be a professional footballer, or basketball player, or whatnot), women's football or basketball will always be a sideshow. Most people just aren't interested in seeing the "best out of maybe 100 people who even tried" kick around a football. Until the standard of competition in women's sport increases, along with participation levels, you really can't fault publicly listed companies with shareholders who care about profitability for not really being bothered to invest millions in funding a team.
But, things like a Manchester United ladies Football team could increase participation. In the US participation in women's sports has gone up tenfold since Title IX(Title IX lead to equal funding to Men and Women's sports teams on the university level). And once again it would probably not cost that much to fund the team.
Well the dailymail thing was simply to show that female fans are an increasing part of football. I played youth and senior football in the late 70's and early 80's. There were absolutely no female fans around then. I went to games at OT in the early 70's and to quite a few of the grounds of the old English 1st division. There were no female fans at games back then, if there were the numbers were tiny. The only numbers I could find with respect to female fans were the ones from 2011 which suggest that 1/4 of EPL fans were female.
http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Women/General/02/03/27/84/2032784_DOWNLOAD.pdf
The growing numbers of girls taking up the game will have had an impact on the increasing numbers of female fans at competitions such as the EPL. Because so many girls are taking up the game they are also starting to follow clubs in increasing numbers. Socially I see a massive increase in the interactions between youth males and youth females in terms of them going to watch games together in social groups. This simply didnt happen when I was in my teens. You have an increasing knowledge of the game among young women involved in the playing of the game. This means going to live football is no longer mostly males attending. More females are attending football games as spectators partly because more females are playing the game and love the game.
People on here dont seem to be able to grasp the significance of this relative to the future.
The business model is a bit of a red herring. Heres why. All over the world there are Amateur and semi pro clubs. Auckland City FC for example where I am has competed at the World Club champs a few times now. It is made up of a squad where all the players have daytime jobs but the club pays them a small stipend which in turns means they are semi pro. Typical crowds for ACFC games would be under 1000. ACFC plays games against others which are based along the entire length of NZ which is larger than the UK in area. This isnt unique to where I am but happens all over the world. So we have a team that fiscally is in the black and has been for a while but doesnt pay any players full time wages. I would expect a Utd womens team to operate in a similar manner, where some of the players will be paid but many wont and the team works to a limited budget.
I get the impression people are expecting a womens team to be made up of a team of players on full time wages. That simply wont happen. The whole argument on the business side misses the point that the money spent would be relative to the money available.
Another point on semi pro teams where players are paid a stipend that sits outside of their full time jobs. Often those players ( I had this happen to me in the early 80s) will be getting "boot" money (wages) which are not just for playing but also include an evening or 2 of coaching junior or youth sides. The money for that coaching simply comes from the fees the junior or youth teams pay the club for the seasons fees.
I coach at regional rep level, I get paid $50/session. I look after 12 players per session. We work in 10 week blocks. I get $500 per term for this. The parents are paying $60 a term which gives the association $720, I get paid out of this. This model would help with some of the players from a senior side.
I would expect if Man Utd had a womens team that the marquee players (3-5 players) would recieve a nominal wage and the rest would get some sort of small base fee. The players wouldnt be full time professionals and maybe the marquee players would be involved with junior/youth coaching via the ManUtd Foundation which already runs girls academies.
Also with the demographic of women footballers many players most likely be students with women generally coming into senior sides at a much younger age than the men do.
The big problem is that people on here are thinking from the completely wrong perspective with respect to a senior womens Man Utd side. Of course the numbers wont work if the same parameters are applied as the senior mens team. All around the world amateur clubs operate with financial expenses to players who are not pro players. Have a look at a couple of Scotlands League Two attendance numbers http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avesco.htm
Man Utd could easily have a womens team and it wouldnt be a huge drain on resources. That argument is a red herring.
Just to add one more thing. I am pretty sure than a Man Utd womens team playing in Englands top womens division would get better crowds than Scotlands mens League two teams get. If they can survive on their crowd numbers i would bet a Man utd ladies team could survive and not cost the club problematic amounts of money.
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We should have a female team. Quite a few good points made in the thread.
She plays Tennis DT.
She plays Tennis DT.
In response the the first couple bolded statements, that is your personal claim with no evidence to support it apart from anecdotes. I can think of many more reasons for the rise in women attending football matches; the reduction in hooliganism, the internet, the amount leagues and clubs spend on marketing, david beckham, improved stadium safety etc. Also everything you've mentioned pertains to the mens game. I've yet to see anything convincing that shows that more women interested in the premier league will translate into more women interested in womens football.
Google could open up a bunch of internet cafes and not have it cost them a problematic amount of money either. I'm being slightly facetious but can afford to do it is hardly a good reason. The main thrust of your argument is that it would be good for the club and good for the sport. I've yet to see anything conclusive that convinces me this is the case. I think Rowem summed it up quite nicely:
Sort the mens team out first.
Sad, but I don't know why we would. If we started a women's team now, it'd feel like charity or a PR move, which it probably would be. All the wrong reasons.
I'm sure the girls/women take their sport just as serious as the boys/men do, so I'd probably feel insulted/offended in a way.
My sexist approach would be to let them play in our new ladies fan kits and only sign players with big beautiful eyes.
You know I'm just teasing, ladies...
You missed the word "partly" that I put in there. I am not claiming its soley because of playing numbers.
My anecdotal position comes from playing the game for 45 or more years, it comes from being involved in clubs in 3 different countries for most of my life, not as a fan but as a player, coach, parent, ref, administrator. I have also coached for over 16 years at every level outside of international with both sexes and with juniors, youth and adults of both sexes. Its possible for me within the confines of the amateur side of the game if i wanted to make a modest living out of coaching because there is money there.
My experience with all the girls and women i have coached over the years is that because they play the game to a decent level they are following the big clubs more than when i first started.
I would bet that you have no involvement at all in grass roots football, you wont watch local amateur football on a regular basis and you have never been involved at any level with a local club. Its the only way i can understand why you dont think that a womens team would be good for the club or the sport. Thats quite a baffling thing to me.
I think there is a massive disconnect between fans of big football clubs and people involved with grassroots football.
The thread following the womens world cup was full of comments from people complaining about the standard of football. I play in a team in an over 35's division. The youngest player in my team is 45, most of us are in our 50's. Within that group the majority of the guys have played to a decent amateur level and have been involved in playing, coaching or administration in the sport their entire lives. The conversations i had with those guys were quite different to what was being posted in here. They all enjoyed the WWC, there was more talk about the quality of the games from a positive point of view than in here. That I am sure is because they all had daughters, friends daughters who played or they had coached girls during their time coaching. They understood the difference and judged the play on its own merits.
However in here the view was quite different and again the only thing that makes sense with respect to that difference is that so many on here are so far removed from what goes on at grassroots football. I would bet the majority of fans on here have had very limited involvement with local grassroots football. Its the only way I can understand how anyone couldnt see the positives for the club and the game with having a senior womens team.
We already run girls academies developing young women players who then go off to other clubs once they are out of the age groups. Sad that our own development work ends up benefitting other clubs really.
I should've read the whole thread before posting my first piece. Lots of good information.
I agree that having girls academies without the final step of senior football is a shame and must be dissapointing for the girls who go through all the age groups. I'd want a first team purely for these girls and the effort they've put into the game they love.
One worry that cropped up for me when you mentioned the semi-pro approach was career decisions in general.
We're talking about young girls who still have a life ahead of them and they'll (probably) never be in the lucky situation to earn enough money in their active career to set a solid foundation for their own future.
The boot money must be high enough to cover their costs but low enough to not make them neglect or ignore their "real" future and career (probably) outside of footy. It's a tricky situation that a fair number of low payed Pros have to deal with. "Wasting" their career building years with sometimes unfulfilled dreams only to later find out that they've missed the bus with the shiny, successful people.
Sure, plenty will make the right decisions, but not few also won't. I think we need to build up women's professional football carefully, thoughtfully and responsibly without suggesting that the women can become the next Ronaldo or Beckham, sorted for life.
I know a couple of mates I used to play with that threw away their lives, living in the hope of going from semi to full pro and it's sad to see them struggle to get by now. I'd hate it to think we might be doing that to some of the girls out there.
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Good job not crumbling under pressure. Make a club if you want and when you want. No worries about league, they'll kick some poorer club out for you.
The plural of anecdote is not evidence I'm afraid. I personally salute you for giving so much back to the game. Your statement about fans of big football clubs as if they're some monolithic beast is off the mark though. You're talking about millions of people most of whom will have played football at some level in their lives. You keep throwing around the term grassroots football, you do realize that encompasses anyone who plays football with their mates or in a sunday league right. I think womens football is better served carving out their own identity and not piggybacking on the mens game. You may disagree. You may even be right but so far beyond sharing personal experiences and anecdotes ( which were quite enjoyable) you have not provided any data or evidence that latching on to successful footballs clubs is better than creating new teams and new identities for womens football.
Whilst the ethics of this are sound, the logistics would be on its arse if they ever went professional. England struggles to keep (and really shouldn't have) 92 pro teams afloat in the 4 leagues, not counting Conferences, let alone more.
Though association of a club name and colours will likely stop a Liverpool fan cheering on Utd's women for example, it is the best way to move forward.
That all said, we should at least entertain a women's team given our limited involvement already but seeing as Southampton don't either, we're not alone.
While we're at it a handball and basketball team would be good - fairly sure the government or British Olympics organisations would part fund that.
Not sure if you're English but a bit has been made in the UK about United having no female team.
If we sign Alex Morgan I'm all for it.
If you find yourself born English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, French, Dutch, German, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Austrian, Hungarian, Polish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Mexican, American, Canadian, Brazilian, Argentinan, Uruguayan, South African, Nigerian, Ghanaian or from any other country, you can hope for and work towards playing for man utd.
But if you find yourself born female, you can't.
But if you find yourself born female, you can't.
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Set up a women's team, but make them play in that top that everyone was crying about...
Who are these people who really want United to set up a women's team and would then pay to watch every game? I personally think it would be a bigger step for women's football when they can dissociate themselves from the men's club teams and have a sustainable club of their own...oh yeah that's not going to happen unless an owner has enough money not to rely on ticket sales. I would be much happier if United put the equivalent money into coaching girls football from a young age and try to contribute to the quality of the national team as opposed to running another club side with no realistic expectations we can make any money from it or that it will gain a large following.
I'm all for United helping women's football financially for goodwill and PR reasons but see no benefit to us having a women's team and having even more crappy football associated with the club.
I'm all for United helping women's football financially for goodwill and PR reasons but see no benefit to us having a women's team and having even more crappy football associated with the club.
It's a load of bollocks; pressure from the PC-brigade. Had England got knocked out in the group stage of the WWC, no one would give a stuff about the development of their game.
I would like to see a women's United team but I don't think that United should be chastised for not having one.
It is a hard headed business decision by the Glazer family I feel. A shame for sure.
It is a hard headed business decision by the Glazer family I feel. A shame for sure.
Probably harder to set up a lady's team now. Not saying we should not have one but we'd have to find a training ground, home match ground, coaches and actually get players... which will be hard considering City and Chelsea seem to be spending quite a bit trying to get the best female players.
Not saying we should not have a lady's team. I think we should, not to please some PC quota, but i think it would be good for the club and female football. How ever you can see why the Glazers, would not want it when they run the club as a strictly controlled business. Unless it makes them quite a bit of profit, they won't do it.
Not saying we should not have a lady's team. I think we should, not to please some PC quota, but i think it would be good for the club and female football. How ever you can see why the Glazers, would not want it when they run the club as a strictly controlled business. Unless it makes them quite a bit of profit, they won't do it.
damn straight we do. if you start to let them think they can be footballers they'll want to be doctors next and mourinho will tell you all about how that ends.
I hate the over the top, dont say/do/think anything that might offend even one person, world we live in now
You dont have a womans team, you're very bad, mmmmk
Why does there have to be an affiliated womans team anyway?!
fecking nonsense
You dont have a womans team, you're very bad, mmmmk
Why does there have to be an affiliated womans team anyway?!
fecking nonsense