Manchester City fans: The True fans of working-class Manchester?

Red_Jamie

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Colin Shindler seems to think so..

I'm struggling to think of a newspaper article that has irked me quite how some of the quotes and suggestions in this one have.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/sports/soccer/05iht-SOCCER.html?_r=1


It really does appear that to most people, both locally and (it would seem) abroad, supporting City somehow makes a person more Mancunian, true to their roots or working-class. I suppose you could say more of a proper football fan?

City fans have for years told the tale of how they are the only true Mancunian club, that all United fans are glory-hunters. They have told outsiders that there are 'no United fans in Manchester' . They have led people to believe that somehow (via some unexplained miracle) Manchester United must have built it's foundations from fans scattered across the world and that they never really had anything to do with Manchester in the first place..

Incredibly though, it seems it's worked! Most people actually believe them.

It's important that i say that i don't actually care what people think of me as a United fan, but it simply astounds me that City fans have succeeded in fooling the world in their tirade against all things United.

There are thousands and thousands of these people that now believe that City fans are the true Mancunian football people. That they are the manifestation of the ideal Mancunian football supporter.

This article isn't my only proof. I've met hundreds of people who, upon finding out that i'm a Mancunian United fan, have said, with hardly a hint of sarcasm, 'but there isn't any United fans in Manchester!' or have said things like 'How long have you supported United then??'..

Maybe, though, they could actually be right? Despite the fact that I'm a Mancunian.. Despite the fact that i'm working class.. Despite the fact that my Dad and his Dad and probably even his Dad supported United.. Despite the fact that i spend almost all my spare time and money supporting this club with it's ridiculous prices and clueless, selfish owners.. Maybe i just can't see what's staring me in the face? Maybe Manchester doesn't matter to United on any level?

Is everybody else right?.. Are Manchester City the 'true' Mancunian football club?
 
locally only the city fans themselves seem to fall for this tirade, and what it doesn't mention is manchester uniteds history, which is basically a salford club, so this does tend to lead towards people n the city of manchester being mainly city fans, this does not tend to be the case though, what this comes from is mainly city fans being quite clever with there statistics, about how many of there fans are within the city of manchester.

they claim they are the true manchester club and i do tend to slightly agree with them, not as much s is made out but manchester citys match goer's do tend to be manchester based, united always seems more salford based to me, and this isn't just speaking as a salfordian, many people have said the same to me.
 
Well, having been in both the Stretford and the Kippax, I'd say you're all Manc cnuts but there are more of you than them.
 
It's bollocks, and proven by the fact that United fans greatly outnumber City fans in Manchester, regardless of social class or income or whatever. I'm the same as you Jamie, a Mancunian from three generations of Reds from this area, btw. I think due to their lack of success on the field, City have tried to compensate somewhat by attempting to develop ideas off it about their true principles and the fact they're the real Manchester club.

The fact they've duped quite a lot of people isn't down to the fact that they're the better supported club in Manchester, but the fact that they've always pointed to the fact we've had a fair number of both Foreign Supporters, and Glory Hunters, which to be fair, we have had. There's certainly nothing organic about their current state as a club either. Their money has been delivered on a plate to them by a multi-national consortium, whereas ours has been built up by years of good youth development, big crowds and other sources of self-generated income. The bitters may have convinced a rather uninformed crowd that they're the real club of Manchester, but I think the reality bears no real relation to their boasts.

Interesting topic though Jamie, mate. :)
 
phelans shorts said:
locally only the city fans themselves seem to fall for this tirade, and what it doesn't mention is manchester uniteds history, which is basically a salford club, so this does tend to lead towards people n the city of manchester being mainly city fans, this does not tend to be the case though, what this comes from is mainly city fans being quite clever with there statistics, about how many of there fans are within the city of manchester.

they claim they are the true manchester club and i do tend to slightly agree with them, not as much s is made out but manchester citys match goer's do tend to be manchester based, united always seems more salford based to me, and this isn't just speaking as a salfordian, many people have said the same to me.
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But i've always thought that all in all to be Salfordian and to be Mancunian is essentially the same. but that's for another time!

For the purpose of this thread let's think of it as Greater Manchester, because i think it's important not to use the (very misleading) fact that City are the only club actually based in the City of Manchester against ourselves here, because in these circumstances i think essentially, Manchester, Salford, Trafford, even Bury, Rochdale etc is still a part of 'Manchester' even if technically it isn't. :)
 
Great Hat said:
It's bollocks, and proven by the fact that United fans greatly outnumber City fans in Manchester, regardless of social class or income or whatever. I'm the same as you Jamie, a Mancunian from three generations of Reds from this area, btw. I think due to their lack of success on the field, City have tried to compensate somewhat by attempting to develop ideas off it about their true principles and the fact they're the real Manchester club.

The fact they've duped quite a lot of people isn't down to the fact that they're the better supported club in Manchester, but the fact that they've always pointed to the fact we've had a fair number of both Foreign Supporters, and Glory Hunters, which to be fair, we have had. There's certainly nothing organic about their current state as a club either. Their money has been delivered on a plate to them by a multi-national consortium, whereas ours has been built up by years of good youth development, big crowds and other sources of self-generated income. The bitters may have convinced a rather uninformed crowd that they're the real club of Manchester, but I think the reality bears no real relation to their boasts.

Interesting topic though Jamie, mate. :)
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great post and so very true!

this really began to become a key part of their delusion after their team became crap along with what a wonderful loyal (better than other clubs ) support they had considering they never won anything and dropped down the league. As United became more successful this was taken up by other supporters as a way of hitting back hence you have liverpool and other fans from all over the world ringing in to Radio phone-ins to moan about all United fans living in London
 
Utter bollocks. They're just the underdogs so perceive themselves as working class heroes. I'm from Longsight and as working class as you can get, and we greatly outnumber city fans this side of Levenshulme. It's obvious that United fans outnumber city fans in the entire city, but even more centrally I'd say there are more working class united fans than working class city fans.
 
RedPhil1957 said:
great post and so very true!

this really began to become a key part of their delusion after their team became crap along with what a wonderful loyal (better than other clubs ) support they had considering they never won anything and dropped down the league. As United became more successful this was taken up by other supporters as a way of hitting back --------- successful and their team became crap
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Exactly, the fact that you follow a team that has been shite for 35 years doesn't make you an untouchable football fan.

Sometimes i think City think they're the only big football club in the world that's unsuccessful.
 
RedPhil1957 said:
great post and so very true!

this really began to become a key part of their delusion after their team became crap along with what a wonderful loyal (better than other clubs ) support they had considering they never won anything and dropped down the league. As United became more successful this was taken up by other supporters as a way of hitting back --------- successful and their team became crap
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Cheers Phil.

Their support isn't even that good really either. They don't fill CoMS, and by all accounts the atmosphere is poor there. Yeah, it's definitely just an attempt by City to grasp onto some kind of advantage over us, and one that's false at that (whether they genuinely believe it or not is a debatable matter).
 
Great Hat said:
Cheers Phil.

Their support isn't even that good really either. They don't fill CoMS, and by all accounts the atmosphere is poor there. Yeah, it's definitely just an attempt by City to grasp onto some kind of advantage over us, and one that's false at that (whether they genuinely believe it or not is a debatable matter).
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very true ------- if you compare their support to a club like Forest who have been through equally bad times, falling even further (ex European Champions)
 
Suppose they've started filling their stadium recently then?
 
I find that most City fans hold themselves in really high regard, that because they have been in lower divisions gives them some kind of footballing knowledge Manchester United fans dream of.

It's really quite pathetic if you ask me, yes Manchester United have accumulated a shit load of bandwagon jumpers, that's what successful teams do, it will happen with City too if they get their way.

But it doesn't matter to me, I know my roots, I love my club and have done since I realised what a football was.

Pathetic City based propaganda and nothing to worry about lads (and femmes)
 
It's a myth but as you say is definatly believed by most people as fact and saying United when asked who you support unless you are speaking to another red automatically gets people on glory hunter watch. I remember once in a pub someone asked me who i support and i said united, he then immediatly without any prior knowledge or where im from or anything said 'go on then name me 10 united players' i named the entire first team squad and at the end of it all he could say was "you said david beckham! he's at LA galaxy now!" even though i named players who were here long after becks he still had to try and pick holes in the fact i had proved my red ness beyond doubt with something that was basically bollocks. The amount of people i know who have said tevez *spits* have gone to the real manchester club is ridiculous, most of which have seen less matches recently than david blunkett but still know this myth and think its true.

A city fan could be a fan who never goes to matches (they may be able to afford them but dont actually want to spend thier money on them), knows nothing about the history, knows no players and barely follows the team unless its a big game. If a united fan did this they would be called a glory hunter without a doubt, can you see the same happening to a city fan who fits this bill being called the same?

my third point of city bollocks is that with the cash they have they see themselves being in our shoes in a few years and are openly gloating about it, basically admitting they would love to be exactly what they have mocked us for being the past few years in a few years time, theyre even trying to tie up fans in the foreighn market, another thing they have taken the piss for.

I genuinley see more united fans in manchester than city, in certain areas (moss side, gorton, denton etc..) city fans will outnumber united by probably 3 to 1. but wonder round withington, chorlton, levenshulme, stretford and united will far outnumber city.

in conclusion, feck the bastards, 34 years!
 
great thread guys, explains a lot to me. until today i was convinced that there are more manc fans than united in Manchester. I knew some people from Manchester and all off them a) supported City b) claimed that nobody supports United in their city.


anyhow- can somebody explain me that nonsense that a proper football fans is from working class? some of the people in the UK have obsession about social classes.
 
When I was growing up in Moston in the 80's the majority of my school and my local friends outside of school all supported United. My mum was born in Withington and that side of the family all support City.

Different areas of Manchester support different clubs. Both sides are true Mancunians.
 
Sunny Jim said:
great thread guys, explains a lot to me. until today i was convinced that there are more manc fans than united in Manchester. I knew some people from Manchester and all off them a) supported City b) claimed that nobody supports United in their city.


anyhow- can somebody explain me that nonsense that a proper football fans is from working class? some of the people in the UK have obsession about social classes.
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football was (and i stress "was") a working class game for many generations and sometimes things that are so deeprooted can take a while to shift.

i dont think anyone these days would say football is a working class game.
 
Sunny Jim said:
great thread guys, explains a lot to me. until today i was convinced that there are more manc fans than united in Manchester. I knew some people from Manchester and all off them a) supported City b) claimed that nobody supports United in their city.


anyhow- can somebody explain me that nonsense that a proper football fans is from working class? some of the people in the UK have obsession about social classes.
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Some some people in this country are utterly obsessed with classes, what they are, what they fit into, what it means etc... everything

most people want to call themselves working class because it makes you seem more authentic and more grounded, because of this i know shit loads of people who call themselves working class but blatently arent. Some people will disagree but working class doesnt really exist anymore in the way it used to.

Football isnt a working class game anymore but i'd definatly say what surrounds it is still very working class,in the way that behavior at football games is nothing like any other sport in england, especially rugby and cricket which are definatly considered more middle or upper class sports.
 
Grinner said:
Only because back then there was feck-all else to do in Manchester of a Saturday.
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Well there must have been for City fans cos they never got those numbers

Moriarty said:
It was higher, somewhere in the region of 48,000 I believe.
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You're right, I was looking at '73/4. 48,000, highest in the football league I think?

To be fair, it's not like we weren't going straight back up so it must have been a bit of a party. But the same can be said for lots of relegated clubs and no-one's come close to that level of hardcore support.

jdmufc said:
football was (and i stress "was") a working class game for many generations and sometimes things that are so deeprooted can take a while to shift.

i dont think anyone these days would say football is a working class game.
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I'm not even sure it ever was a 'working-class game' as such. Or if it was, it was a long way back.

It depends what you mean by working class. Most of the middle-class people I grew up knowing were things like teachers, engineers, social workers, one taxi driver... it's not like they didn't go to the football. Alright their kids are doctors and lawyers and accountants, but if anything they go to games less than their dads.

Colin Shindler who wrote that article is from a middle-class family himself!
 
Yeah they called us the Rags since the thirties or earlier when we were the poor relations

But once they're down on their luck they go all salt of the earth... until they hit oil... when they start moaning that it leaves their overalls soiled...

Bellends
 
Bread said:
Some some people in this country are utterly obsessed with classes, what they are, what they fit into, what it means etc... everything

most people want to call themselves working class because it makes you seem more authentic and more grounded, because of this i know shit loads of people who call themselves working class but blatently arent. Some people will disagree but working class doesnt really exist anymore in the way it used to.

Football isnt a working class game anymore but i'd definatly say what surrounds it is still very working class,in the way that behavior at football games is nothing like any other sport in england, especially rugby and cricket which are definatly considered more middle or upper class sports.
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i used to live in Edinburgh and i remember that there were some bitter remarks about Edinburgh University students (rich fellas) and Morningside (a posh area of the city) but i've never witnessed anything bar that. most of my friends there didn't give a feck about politics. we hardly ever talk social classes as such either. I also had a friend -declared Labour supporter and football fan. he never mentioned social class, his political views and word football in one conversation. that's why i was a bit surprised. on the other i now better understand this

“People often ask me what it is that makes Manchester United so special. When I played for the club Sir Matt Busby always used to say that the lad who works on the factory shop floor, but finds it boring, wants excitement in his free time... that when he goes to football at the weekend he wants excitement. He therefore used to tell us that we therefore had a responsibility to entertain. It is a philosophy that has continued right through until today and that has made the club popular the world over.”
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jdmufc said:
football was (and i stress "was") a working class game for many generations and sometimes things that are so deeprooted can take a while to shift.
i dont think anyone these days would say football is a working class game.
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opposite to cricket, rugby, polo and stuff like that?
 
That article is just a cornucopia of absolute stupidity, but you shouldn't blame Colin Shindler.

The man you're after is one Mr Thad Williamson, assistant professor at the Jepson School of Leadership Studies at the University of Richmond, basketball fan, lover of the colour sky blue, leading expert on the mancunian working class, obviously -- half man, half badger & 100% idiot.

He deserves to be quoted, but first a little something about his background --

"Williamson’s fascination with City began 10 years ago. It was to an extent the light blue color of the shirt, identical to the North Carolina blue that he says is “hard-wired” into his brain as a follower of that basketball team."

[...]

“I needed a team to support,” he concluded. “My anticorporate sensibility made rooting for a behemoth like Manchester United out of the question. They play great soccer, but rooting for United is like rooting for Exxon.

“City is the true club of working-class Manchester."

Has there ever been denser concentration of pure idiocy in so few sentences?
Probably, but Mr Williamson's making a brave attempt at a world record here.

Shindler's one of the few massives who's gone public with his negative feelings about the ADUG takeover, and although he might also be a believer in the 'City is the real Manchester club' myth, he's not expressing those sentiments in this article.
 
I've been to Manchester on several occasions, the longest I've stayed was 10 days. Anytime I've been over there, I've always seen a lot of United supporters about. There's so many myths going around about United - gloryhunters, more City fans in Manchester, the OT atmosphere etc etc etc. I get bored of hearing the same shit over again.
 
jdmufc said:
football was (and i stress "was") a working class game for many generations and sometimes things that are so deeprooted can take a while to shift.

i dont think anyone these days would say football is a working class game.
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50 years ago the majority of the crowd in a stadium stood on the terraces and consisted of working class males gradually this has changed partly because class lines have blurred considerably during my lifetime but also changes such as the advent of all seater stadiums, sky tv, ticket prices etc. The crowds today, certainly in top flight football, have little in common with previous generations, I would say this is especially true of northern clubs.
 
I've been hearing this shit for over thirty years, "Real Manchester club" "Peoples team" " Everybodies second favorite team" Yadda yadda yadda. Its become Citehs life support machine, their reason for existing in a cruel World that won't give them what they believe they deserve. It was pathetic when they were potless, and by and large pointless, but hearing this nonsence from the richest club in the World is truely laughable.

Peoples Club me arse!
 
It's just something the City fans use to cover up the fact that they are vastly inferior to us in every single aspect.
 
Partizan said:
It was pathetic when they were potless, and by and large pointless, but hearing this nonsence from the richest club in the World is truely laughable.

Peoples Club me arse!
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Not to mention having an assistant professor of Leadership Studies from North Carolina who 'needed a team to root for' (By the way, doesn't 'root' mean 'shag' in Australia? I always get a quiet, childish snigger out of that. Maybe it's just my mind playing tricks on me...) & opted for City because they're playing in sky blue, telling the world they're the 'true club of working class Manchester' must make them so proud.

It's all pure idiocy.
They've never been more 'real, true & genuine' than United. We've attracted fans from all over the world because we've been a vastly superior team. Adding OOC supporters doesn't in any way, shape or form subtract from the mancunian group of supporters.
It's just stupid, stupid, stupid.

And now they're owned by ADUG and having money generated far away from Manchester, and by people who wouldn't know City from a hole in the ground, being poured into their club, and they're still going on about the 'true Manchester club' shite.
They've been successful in propagating the myth though, however silly it might seem to us (Why should people all over the world be attracted to United, just not mancunians? ) - just take a look at that NY Times article.

Humanity is horrible.
 
I dont really buy either of it.

On the one hand both sides have good support, it is natural for United to have more outside of manchester because they are the bigger club. Glory hunters all across england and the world will support United, no doubt. The same way they support, Madrid, Milan, Juve and any other big team. This sells shirts and makes United money.

If all goes to plan for City then the billions they have gotten will bring them massive support in asia etc and they will have the same eliment of glory hunters supporting them.

There really is no moral high ground on either side here. If you are a bigger club you will have more fans, if you are more successful you will have more fans. To be honest i don't think many fans can claim to be hardcore anymore. The days of the hardcore fan probably fizzled out before my generation. You just have to look at the crowds in the 60s/70/80s to see the difference in my opinion.

I'm not saying it's any better or worse but football has changed quite a bit.
 
Waltraute said:
Not to mention having an assistant professor of Leadership Studies from North Carolina who 'needed a team to root for' (By the way, doesn't 'root' mean 'shag' in Australia? I always get a quiet, childish snigger out of that. Maybe it's just my mind playing tricks on me...) & opted for City because they're playing in sky blue, telling the world they're the 'true club of working class Manchester' must make them so proud.

It's all pure idiocy.
They've never been more 'real, true & genuine' than United. We've attracted fans from all over the world because we've been a vastly superior team. Adding OOC supporters doesn't in any way, shape or form subtract from the mancunian group of supporters.
It's just stupid, stupid, stupid.

And now they're owned by ADUG and having money generated far away from Manchester, and by people who wouldn't know City from a hole in the ground, being poured into their club, and they're still going on about the 'true Manchester club' shite.
They've been successful in propagating the myth though, however silly it might seem to us (Why should people all over the world be attracted to United, just not mancunians? ) - just take a look at that NY Times article.

Humanity is horrible.
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Indeed it does, but it depends on context.

It's not like we don't use the term "Who are we rooting for?" because of the childish sniggers that may result. Mind you, everyone thinks dirty thoughts of the term.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
There really is no moral high ground on either side here. If you are a bigger club you will have more fans, if you are more successful you will have more fans. To be honest i don't think many fans can claim to be hardcore anymore. The days of the hardcore fan probably fizzled out before my generation. You just have to look at the crowds in the 60s/70/80s to see the difference in my opinion.
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In my opinion, there's certainly is a huge difference between using money generated by a vast number of people's interest in your football team & using money generated totally outside the sphere of football (like is the case with eg City or Chelsea).

I'm the first one to be critical of how we've been in the vanguard of making football part of the entertainment industry, but you must see the difference, surely?

That's neither here nor there though, as this thread is about whether or not it's justified to view City as 'the true Manchester team' & United as a 'corporate behemoth without true roots in Manchester'.

As for saying there are no 'hardcore fans' anyomore -- this is simply not true. I know people who've been going home & away & in Europe for 40 years, and they're still at it. They're still true supporters in every way.

ETA - Thanks for the explanation, Flying Fox. And sorry for being so childish. :nervous:

Just had to add that I don't buy the 'It's modern football, every team is as bad as the next!' view on this issue.
I've never met a United supporter who've been positive about us being floated on the stock market, about the whole strategy of selling United as a brand, about any aspect of 'modern football' changing our club.
All I've heard is sadness & a will to fight against this development.

We've also never claimed we had the moral high ground over City. We're just claiming they are no more a 'true genuine Manchester club' than we are.
 
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