Manager draft - Balu/Pedro VS Paolo DC

[Balu]

They all went too early man, Overmars is on the bench for me, Robben I would have loved tbh aswell as Lahm, I think Davids was not at his peak at Ajax, that was at Juve, Cocu or Bastien was my choice and I just have a thing for Bastien, I had loads of other choices, Stoichkov, Riquelme, Mendieta etc but none were at there best under LVG

What's the final team you hope for, if you go through? Something like the following would be amazing.

Kluivert
Ribery - Rivaldo - Robben
Schweinsteiger Guardiola
Rijkaard
de Boer - Blind - Lahm
van der Sar
​

Davids played under van Gaal for the Dutch national team, too...

Again, as I said, I'm nitpicking and understand that I'm being harsh. Selecting teams and formations is very subjective as it is, especially when you have constraints such as players being drafted earlier etc.

Nationalteams only count from the 2nd round onwards, it's just performances at club level now.

 

[Buchan]

Nationalteams only count from the 2nd round onwards, it's just performances at club level now.

Apologies, lads. Again, as I said, I haven't been glued to the process up to now. Maybe I should ho away now and just leave you lads to it!

 

[Joga Bonito]

What aren't you getting?

I never said anything as extreme as players would hug the line, I said that there is space out wide - which there is - and when your defenders get pulled out then that will leave gaps for Rivaldo and Kluivert. If you think that Muller and Ribery will see a shit load of space out wide but think 'nah, feck it' lets move into the middle' then I do not agree.

The part I said was nonsense was trying to downplay the clear influence Ribery will have out wide by suggesting he'll look to cut in. It was nothing about Muller. I don't mind what you've said about Muller. He's not going to have his best game here but I don't see that a huge problem, no player is a perfect fit against every type of opponent and every type of formation.

I still think Muller has a role to play though by creating space for Rivaldo/Kluivert.

I think both managers accept the risks/flaws that come with their rather top-heavy formation and admit that it will be an open game with goals being scored either end, as there are some fantastic forwards on display here. As such you will have to look at it in relative terms. Whose offense is going to have a better game against the opponent's defense here. It is only natural that the likes of Ribery, Rivaldo, Muller and Kluivert are going to utilize their pace/intelligent movement to pull away defenders and make it as chaotic as possible against a back three.

However, Balu has tried to limit Rivaldo's influence by man-marking him with Tito. He also has two wide centre-backs who have experience of playing as full-backs and as such will have faced orthodox pacey and tricky wide men, which was more of the norm in that era rather than the inside-forward nowdays. This is in stark contrast with Paolo's defense who have De Boer and Blind, players who were hardly known for their pace/athleticism, against the likes of Augusto and Joya with Eusebio driving at them as well. Let's not forget Paolo has an ageing Rijkaard who was past his physical peak here and actually played more in midfield than defense for Ajax. Same thing for Blind who played as a sweeper and not as a side defender. Paolo could have really really done with a Puyol or Lahm here imo and moved Rijkaard into midfield. Then it would have been sensational. At the end of the day, both defenses aren't exactly water-tight and will leak a few goals but I can see Guttman's team outscoring LVG's team here.

 

[Balu]

Apologies, lads. Again, as I said, I haven't been glued to the process up to now. Maybe I should ho away now and just leave you lads to it!

Not much discussion going on anyway, so I guess, there's nothing wrong with a bit 'what could have been'.

 

[Balu]

He also has two wide centre-backs who have experience of playing as full-backs and as such will have faced orthodox pacey and tricky wide men, which was more of the norm in that era rather than the inside-forward nowdays.

To be fair, I don't have seen enough of my defenders to make such claims . To use an example, just because Höwedes is a world cup winning leftback, I wouldn't describe him as pacey. It's good to know that they have some experience out there and that they are regarded as great defenders. I also am quite certain that they aren't slower than de Boer and Blind, but I won't claim that they are comfortable here against someone like Ribery. I see less of a problem against Müller though (strictly in a one vs one sense of course)

 

[Joga Bonito]

To be fair, I don't have seen enough of my defenders to make such claims . To use an example, just because Höwedes is a world cup winning leftback, I wouldn't describe him as pacey. It's good to know that they have some experience out there and that they are regarded as great defenders. I also am quite certain that they aren't slower than de Boer and Blind, but I won't claim that they are comfortable here against someone like Ribery. I see less of a problem against Müller though.

I was going on an assumption but yeah the main point I was trying to make was that your defense seems more well-equipped at dealing with his offense than the other way around.

 

[Paolo Di Canio]

Lets not forget my backline won the European cup together now lads so its not that weak, although the lads have set up to stretch me, so the movement of my midfield/defense is essential here, what balu has to worry about is getting the ball off me when I have it, some great ball players there on show

 

[Balu]

what balu has to worry about is getting the ball off me when I have it, some great ball players there on show

I actually thought about that when I did my write-up. I think you're a bit better at keeping possession than I am. Mostly because your defenders are overall more comfortable on the ball than mine. Not that Mauro Ramos and Maldini senior are mugs on the ball, but Rijkaard and de Boer are simply better. I don't think there's much in it in midfield. Bozsik is excellent at keeping the ball, he made that Honved side and the Hungarian nationalteam tick in a way that's probably best compared to Xavi's influence at Barca/Spain around 2008/2009. And while your 3 midfielders are all comfortable at keeping the ball, my midfield 3 is slightly better at winning it back. I think you could edge the possession stats if you want too, but you probably have a better chance to score against me when you play direct. My defense gets more solid the more time you give my attackers to contribute and they aren't lazy.

I'd be very surprised if this game didn't end up going back and forth with a lot goalscoring chances for both sides.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That end is so overcrowded am not sure how effective the individual players would be.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

OK, My take on this:

Paolo's defence is OK. Don't see any problems with it. Midfield trio is a bit dicey. Would prefer if Schweini and Pep's positions are interchanged. Balu's attack is certainly much better, but if the defenders keep a compact formation and not get dragged out wide (which I just noticed Paolo has covered in OP), I can see the area get a bit crowded, which is a bit more difficult for the attacking team than defenders.

Again with Coluna there Balu has a distinct advantage in midfield.

On the other end, I see Ribery having some joy. Boszik never had pace and Ribery would get past him repeatedly. With just Maldini senior there and a bit of support from Rivaldo, that left wing has goals for Paolo.

I can see Paolo having more possession, but Balu certainly has better chance of converting. It will be a high scoring game, with Balu having the better attack countered by Paolo having the correct 'philosophy' and players to back it up.

The scoreline is far more one sided than the actual match will be.

 

[Paolo Di Canio]

That end is so overcrowded am not sure how effective the individual players would be.

OK, My take on this:

Paolo's defence is OK. Don't see any problems with it. Midfield trio is a bit dicey. Would prefer if Schweini and Pep's positions are interchanged. Balu's attack is certainly much better, but if the defenders keep a compact formation and not get dr agged out wide (which I just noticed Paolo has covered in OP), I can see the area get a bit crowded, which is a bit more difficult for the attacking team than defenders.

Again with Coluna there Balu has a distinct advantage in midfield.

On the other end, I see Ribery having some joy. Boszik never had pace and Ribery would get past him repeatedly. With just Maldini senior there and a bit of support from Rivaldo, that left wing has goals for Paolo.

I can see Paolo having more possession, but Balu certainly has better chance of converting. It will be a high scoring game, with Balu having the better attack countered by Paolo having the correct 'philosophy' and players to back it up.

The scoreline is far more one sided than the actual match will be.

I have Pep there because I wanted him close to Rivaldo/Kluivert and working together like they did in 1999, he set up a nice few goals for Kluivert, Plus Bastien is the better tackler needed out wide, Its kind of like a spine of Barcelona 1999 supported by Bayern 2009 and backed up by Ajax 1995, players that know eachother are close together

 

[antohan]

reizigger - won the champions league with van gaal - indeed the line up for the final was reizigger, blind, f de bohr and rijkaard playing that hybrid role of defence and midfield
He had Puyol at Barca who could play on the right side of that formation as well as he played at cb and rb
Or play Badstuber in the centre and Blind on the right
Didnt see the draft so I dont know if any or all of those got taken (I imagine Puyol did) but Reizigger would certainly add balance

I have an irrational dislike for Reiziger, although I suppose he was alright at Ajax. Same with de Boer, their performances for Barca scarred me for life.

Puyol was way too young then, it has to be Lahm, not that PPaolo will have much chance to get him at this stage.

 

[antohan]

Maybe @antohan can tell us a bit more about those 3 Penarol players. I don't want you to big them up, just give us a bit more insight about their roles and their playing style and feel free to point it out, if we use them totally wrong .

I think you guys already did a pretty damn good job on the main thread, but unfortunately they'll be ignored once they aren't in the GOAT pantheon, which pre-80s is largely Europe-centric + the odd great Brazilian.

There's a few facts people need to come to terms with though:

1) Peñarol was recognised by FIFA as the best South American team of the XXth Century. That was largely down to that decade or so in the 60s where we won the Libertadores three times and got to the final another three times. In South America we had to contend with Santos, River, Independiente and Estudiantes, all great teams at different times but none of them as consistently dominating as Peñarol. They were South America's answer to Real Madrid (in fact, the main promoters of the Libertadores and Intercontinental Cups, with the same rationale and philosophy as Madrid's). Santos had Pelé, Botafogo had Garrincha, but Peñarol was the preferred destination for the best players from all over the continent (Alberto Spencer - Ecuador's best ever, Juan Joya - Perú's best ever along with Cubillas, Elías Ricardo Figueroa - Chile's best ever).

2) In the Intercontinental Cup we faced Madrid twice and Guttman's Benfica once. We won two out of three, only losing once, to Madrid, in Madrid, with the loss being largely down to their brilliance but mightily helped by Goncalves being injured. The man was a beast, not just protecting the defence but being the launchpad for the forwards as a DLP of sorts. He was Obdulio's heir as #5 and didn't just live up to that, he is spoken of at the same level. Real Madrid tried to buy him, Helenio Herrera tried to lure him to Inter, to no avail, he was Peñarol's captain and why leave when Peñarol was arguably the best team in the world? It's no hyperbole, their record speaks for itself, there was even a tourno among winners of the Intercontinental Cup to mark its tenth anniversary... and Peñarol won it.

I said everything I had to say about Joya when I picked him a few drafts ago. Devilish winger blessed with pace and trickery. Capable of playing on either side and a regular scorer and assister for Spencer, a player very much in the same mould as Eusebio and the highest ever Libertadores scorer, thanks in no small part to Joya's wingplay.

Matosas was your typical rugged no-nonsense South American defender, Ruggeri-like if you may, but able to play on the flank. I like him better as a CB myself, mind.

Interesting fact: Roberto Matosas and Nestor "Tito" Goncalves won the Libertadores twice in 1960 and 1961. In 1987 their sons, Gustavo Matosas and Jorge "Tito" Goncalves won it again for Peñarol, under the management of Oscar Tabárez and with "Big Tito" as the Youth Coach that brought them through.

 

[Balu]

Thanks anto, as always a brilliant read. I'd love to watch more of that Penarol side. Everything I've read about them during this draft sounds awesome, but sadly there's hardly any footage available.

 

[PedroMendez]

Thanks anto, as always a brilliant read. I'd love to watch more of that Penarol side. Everything I've read about them during this draft sounds awesome, but sadly there's hardly any footage available.

There is footage from the big games (copa finals; matches against madrid from 1960/66 and few others). The problem is that the quality really sucks. While the matches in europe had decent TV coverage by this time, the matches in SA didnt (in terms of quality).

 

[antohan]

There is footage from the big games (copa finals; matches against madrid from 1960/66 and few others). The problem is that the quality really sucks. While the matches in europe had decent TV coverage by this time, the matches in SA didnt (in terms of quality).

Yeah, at least online. We used to have a show in Uruguay, MOTD-like which had started in the early 60s and was the longest-running in the world at one point I think. They had brilliant archive footage but none of it has been published online. What you find online is usually digital versions of videotaped recordings of their shows

Peñarol-Real Madrid in 66 is decent, while Peñarol-River in the '66 final is probably your best bet in terms of quality on show (River were a great attacking team at the time so it was a constant trading of blows). All of Joya, Goncalvez, Caetano and Matosas (for River) were on the pitch that day. Watch out for Carrizo chesting down a ball and engaging in some classic Argie showboating at 2-0 to River. It was the seventh Libertadores, River had never reached a final, while most of Peñarol's players were playing their 5th one Arrogant knobs, that was the trigger for the backlash, and the game ended 4-2 to Peñarol after extra time.

 

[PedroMendez]

watched this match a few days ago. For those who are interested, the goals are around: 20/21, 33/34, 59, 1:04 and 1:38. Somewhat missed the last goal. The quality after halftime is really shocking. You can barely see the Penarol goals. The first two goals from RiverPlate are actually pretty nice and worth watching.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Good read, but for those unfamiliar with the era, would be great if you could put a more familiar player you equate him with. At his best he was as good as XXX, kind of stuff...

 

[antohan]

Good read, but for those unfamiliar with the era, would be great if you could put a more familiar player you equate him with. At his best he was as good as XXX, kind of stuff...

Joya => Jairzinho (similar in style and arguably better out wide, just unlucky to be Peruvian).

Goncalves => tough one as DMs with that passing range are rare. Attributes-wise similar to Deschamps, but not in style. Tito was more blood and thunder and his passing and attacking contribution was superior, but he didn't exactly dictate play like a typical DLP would, or control the tempo of games the way Deschamps did (a master of slowing things down to suit his agenda).

Matosas => a notch under Ruggeri, primarily down to aerial ability -which he had- but not at Ruggeri's level.

 

[antohan]

watched this match a few days ago. For those who are interested, the goals are around: 20/21, 33/34, 59, 1:04 and 1:38. Somewhat missed the last goal. The quality after halftime is really shocking. You can barely see the Penarol goals. The first two goals from RiverPlate are actually pretty nice and worth watching.

No, you saw that one, you missed the third at 1:28/29

 

[Balu]

Goncalves => tough one as DMs with that passing range are rare. Attributes-wise similar to Deschamps, but not in style. Tito was more blood and thunder and his passing and attacking contribution was superior, but he didn't exactly dictate play like a typical DLP would, or control the tempo of games the way Deschamps did (a master of slowing things down to suit his agenda).

I found bits and pieces where his passing and attacking contribution was mentioned but without any reasonable footage to back it up, I didn't really want to bang on about it. It's great to read that comparison and it's why I think he's such a wonderful fit next to Boszik. Tito doesn't need to dictate play here, it's just important that he can pass it good enough to support Boszik, who isn't half bad in that deep lying playmaker job.

I really need to find more footage of Joya, better than Jairzinho out wide is some praise.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There's a ton of material collecting dust in the archives of various TV networks all over the world - much better quality than what is available online. If someone were to set up a website, say, specializing in this kind of material - they could easily put together a treasure trove for football history buffs.

It probably isn't realistic, though. The material in question probably isn't digitalized (I know many national/government type networks are in the process of digitalizing their archives, but it obviously takes time) and it would take a whole lot of time, connections and a fair bit of money to pull it off.

And then there's the question of demand, of course. Not sure if you'd be able to get your investment back, so to speak. Perhaps something of the sort could be feasible in the form of an online museum - in which case it might be possible to apply somewhere for funding. No idea, really - just a thought which has occurred to me at times.

 

[Gio]

Has defensive width gone out of fashion?

There's something clunky about Rijkaard and Guardiola in the same team. Cocu would've been magnificent in PDC's team.

 

[Balu]

Has defensive width gone out of fashion?

I was wondering about that in some of the other games, but I'd say, it isn't really a surprise in this match with both teams trying to stay true to the theme of the draft.

 

[antohan]

I really need to find more footage of Joya, better than Jairzinho out wide is some praise.

It's a real shame because what you get hold of is 1966 footage where he is already in a late Giggsy phase of relying less on his pace and more on his football brain. That said, every time he gets the ball you sense something's going to happen.

The comparison vs. Jairzinho isn't me bigging him up, anyone watching South American football regularly in the 60s (not just WCs) would rate Joya as the better and more consistent performer.

Now I've seen that database Raees was linking up to, I can't help but check it out See for yourself and arrive at your own conclusions:

Peak Jairzinho: http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?t=537&p=685

Joya's most succesful period: http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5448

There are also stats for his earlier River Plate incarnation where he actually is higher rated in terms of pace and explosion, which makes sense age-wise, but I wouldn't call it his peak just because he was quicker. Again, a parallel with Giggs: what's his peak? There must be a sweetspot when the pace is still there but the experience and football brain has developed massively, but it's hard to put your finger on it.

 

[Balu]

I'm completely lost with those stats . But thanks again for your insight, I might include it in the upcoming game.

@Paolo Di Canio good game. You really were a bit unlucky that van Gaal's playerpool overlapped strongly with others. One key player away from an awesome team.

 

[antohan]

I'm completely lost with those stats .

Same here, no idea what half of them mean or how exactly the scale works but if you look at them side by side it will simply tell you they were very much the same bar Jairzinho being marginally better at dribbling at speed (against the older Joya, the young Joya's stats are far better than Jairzinho's) while Joya was better at crossing and heading.

I'm buggered if I know how they establish all that, but it reflects my understanding and relative understanding of both players pretty well.

 

[PedroMendez]

are people making these stats just up or is there any reason behind them?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats Balu. Great game Paolo.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

are people making these stats just up or is there any reason behind them?

Those are stats for players in a video game, right?

What a world. Anyway - I suppose they're based on...something. Partly what some programmer in Japan has been able to divine from...I don't know, really. Could be partly based on actual people actually knowing something about the players, having seen some old footage - impossible to say.

But the bottom line would be, again, that they're stats for a video game. I can't take that 100% seriously no matter how serious the guys who make the stats may be.

Besides, these are...what would ya call it...variables within the game. Which can be adjusted by the player. And the objective, I suppose, is to make the player in question look as realistic as possible. So, it ain't pure bollocks. But it's still "stats" which are designed to make the player playable for the...er...player (of the video game).

 

[antohan]

are people making these stats just up or is there any reason behind them?

They talk about ladders, which I can't find anywhere but apparently for each criterion there is a "ladder" showing what each level translates to in terms of a known player. E.g. Defence @98 = Baresi, @85 = Ferdinand and so on.

I tried to work out the logic comparing some players and it's not bad at all. e.g. Robben and Valencia have the same rating for top speed but Robben is significantly more attack-minded/incisive, and he also has a higher acceleration and dribble speed, which is frankly what makes the whole difference, not raw pace itself.

It's quite neat actually.

 

[antohan]

Those are stats for players in a video game, right?

What a world. Anyway - I suppose they're based on...something. Partly what some programmer in Japan has been able to divine from...I don't know, really. Could be partly based on actual people actually knowing something about the players, having seen some old footage - impossible to say.

But the bottom line would be, again, that they're stats for a video game. I can't take that 100% seriously no matter how serious the guys who make the stats may be.

Besides, these are...what would ya call it...variables within the game. Which can be adjusted by the player. And the objective, I suppose, is to make the player in question look as realistic as possible. So, it ain't pure bollocks. But it's still "stats" which are designed to make the player playable for the...er...player (of the video game).

It's effectively not far from a bunch of draft junkies drawing up profiles based on certain criteria and thus not devoid of bias .

That said, it's clear some of them put a lot of work into it and that there are mods and a process in place whereby various views and feedback are considered. The objective from what I gather is that the characteristics of the player in-game mirror those of the player in real life.

In any case, a decent source to brush up on a player if you have never heard of him and don't have the time to watch endless hours of footage. I found it completely useless looking at one specific player as I've no idea what the numbers mean without this ladders, but if you pick a player who should, in theory, be similar you can compare the minor variations and get a grip on him (e.g. the Valencia example above).

 

[PedroMendez]

I understand the logic behind them. Thats not the point. I played pro evolution soccer myself many years ago. I guess its not that hard to design players, that you actually know. I just struggle to see how they could possibly know enough about pre 60s/70s players to create these profiles.
Its possible, that they did some bad-ass research but its more likely, that many of these stats are just made up/fairly inaccurate. Eventually these players are designed after the few things you can find after googleing for 1-2h.

 

[Balu]

Its possible, that they did some bad-ass research but its more likely, that many of these stats are just made up/fairly inaccurate.

Ffs. I was going to use those stats in our next game

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I understand the logic behind them. Thats not the point. I played pro evolution soccer myself many years ago. I guess its not that hard to design players, that you actually know. I just struggle to see how they could possibly know enough about pre 60s/70s players to create these profiles.
Its possible, that they did some bad-ass research but its more likely, that many of these stats are just made up/fairly inaccurate. Eventually these players are designed after the few things you can find after googleing for 1-2h.

They probably don't. Which means that some of these figures are probably not too far off, whereas others are guesswork at best.

 

[PedroMendez]

Ffs. I was going to use those stats in our next game

badass research it is.

@Paolo Di Canio : good game.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I use that database for the write-ups (like the excellent Lerby's one) that they have or if there were any videos and articles, which they have links to, of lesser known players that I had missed.

Generally I take most of those ratings with a massive pinch of salt but there are some knowledgeable posters there who know their stuff. Most well-known player profiles have sensible debates on player's attributes with posters using video evidence or references to matches or comparisons to other players relatively, to back-up their points. Ultimately it's not the iron-clad truth, it's not objective and it's not entirely reliable but it's not completely bull-shit either. Just hope we don't have future debates based on 'hey my striker's att is higher than your centre back's def' etc.

 

[Balu]

I've no idea what it means, but I just found out that my goalkeeper has a dribble accuracy of 73 at a dribble speed of 72. That sounds pretty good to me. It's also good to know that Bozsik has goalkeeper skills of 50. Awesome.

 

[Paolo Di Canio]

Balu and Pedro well done all the best for the remainding rounds

 

[antohan]

I understand the logic behind them. Thats not the point. I played pro evolution soccer myself many years ago. I guess its not that hard to design players, that you actually know. I just struggle to see how they could possibly know enough about pre 60s/70s players to create these profiles.
Its possible, that they did some bad-ass research but its more likely, that many of these stats are just made up/fairly inaccurate. Eventually these players are designed after the few things you can find after googleing for 1-2h.

I think that holds for the likes of Billy Meredith, post-50s there's very decent footage, just rarely online. It would be fair to say most people engaged in doing stats for a videogame haven't seen these guys live and that where there's little footage online the most likely knowledgeable sources would be locals, which can introduce a bias. That's why I overlooked the early Joya stats, they are so much better they are most likely the work of an overexcited River Plate fan, but the ones I quoted makes sense to me relative to Jairzinho.

They are consistent with what I've seen and heard, not just from Peñarol fans but documentaries involving the likes of Pelé and Santos authorities. For Santos' President to say someone was unplayable and impossible to disposses, when Pelé played for them... that's no small praise. Pelé had a show in Brazil a few years back and one of his first invitees was Spencer, who he said was one of the best players he had seen and had gone toe to toe with him for years with the advantage of being a better header of the ball. I remember him putting forward himself, Spencer and Eusebio as the most formidable forwards of those days and, when mentioning him still being the top scorer of the Libertadores Cup ("that's one record Pelé doesn't have", cheeky git), had a slight dig at Spencer saying no one else had Joya servicing them. While Spencer could have replied that he instead had Garrincha, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson... all he did was acknowledge how much he had enjoyed playing with Joya all those years. They were like two peas in a pod, a brilliant twin threat for any defence, and you couldn't contemplate one without the other. I think I mentioned before how they died in the space of four months and a song dedicated to them two topped the charts here, forty (40!) years after their peak.

Seriously, how hard is it to imagine that he would be comparable to Jairzinho when he was an integral part of a strikeforce that reached five out of the first seven Libertadores finals? And had their been an away goals rule they would have won all five, not just three. But no, let's ignore all that and focus on World Cups as the goal standard, a massive disservice to a player from Peru who chose not to play for Uruguay hoping to get his country into the WC some day (despite there being a policy of not calling up those playing abroad). Let's also assess George Best on his World Cup form while we are at it, shall we?