Man Utd's REAL Problem: Discuss.

ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC

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Lets dispell this bad defence thing once and for all shall we? Cos thats not it. Buying Thuram, Nesta, Cannavaro etc wont help us one bit. It'd probably make us alot worse.

My problem with this whole semi final was that we let them win. We let them have the ball, we watch them and hope that they give it us. Thats playing to their tune. That way we can only win if they let us win. Thats why we've lost so many games this year.

Our 11 players work all by themselves. Maybe the front 2 link up ok, but the rest are poor. Its like a bunch of men running around in the sunday league, there is SOME organisation, but its not professional standard! Watch the movement of our team when they attack. Only Blanc and a few defenders get it right. Watch the movement when we attack, its all over the place.

Switch roles for awhile and watch from Bayer's point of view. Their players pressed every ball and one of our players hardly got 3 touches on a ball without being pressurised. But from our point of view we see it as a poor pass or a mistake. NOPE.

As a team we dont know what we're doing out there. Thats why so many passes go astray. When we come up against a good TEAM, they cancel out our individuals and then its a battle of teams. We lose that one almost everytime.

As a team we cant defend, we cant mark, we cant take the game to opponents. We dont even attack well sometimes, when we do, we attack as individuals.

As individuals we're brilliant, but only when we actually get the chance to perform. Sounds abit like Chelsea dont it?

I know exactly how we could've won this game. We should've fought for it, I didn't see any player running his heart out. Off the ball that is. Thats all it would've taken to win this game.

Thats why I'm so utterly disappointed. As a team we were dead. If I were to watch the match again I could reel off probably a few hundred examples of poor teamplay whilst if you look at Arsenal, Liverpool or any top team its much rarer.

I think I wrote so much cos I'm uncomfortable with blaming Fergie. But he is the only one who can fix this - yet he hasnt.
 
I'm bored with people who say we didn't want it, didn't fight for it, bla bla (especially directed at Veron usually).

Thats just nonsence. Sometimes it looks as though English fans would be delighted to see their players run around like headless chickens. As long as they do that, they are ace even if they get nothing for it.
 
Every United player out there tonight wanted it. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. Or the other team play better.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Every United player out there tonight wanted it. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. Or the other team play better.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sad but true...

:(
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the fecking camera men tonight annoyed me. 'specially 2nd half. Always zooming in for shots of that TopMoelerlight and his scouser-looking hair or someone else. Was dying to see what was happening on the pitch and kept screaming at the telly "zoom out ya bastards zoom out!!"
 
At the moment we don't have a serious problem!

The little problem we have is a defense that is good on paper but lacks communication and togetherness, that's all! Sometimes it works well, and other times it doesn't! It's wierd <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

And for the people that don't like Gary Neville, this is a lesson for you, because when he was on the pitch in the first leg, BL hardly crossed the half way line! :(
 
You guys are blind man.

Only in the last 20 minutes did our players move up a gear, seemingly waking up. And they only managed to do it because Bayer started to panic.

You cant deny that we were shit and it was our fault, not because they outplayed us. We let them do it.

But some people cant handle real football analysis I think. Oh well.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>You guys are blind man.

Only in the last 20 minutes did our players move up a gear, seemingly waking up. And they only managed to do it because Bayer started to panic.

You cant deny that we were shit and it was our fault, not because they outplayed us. We let them do it.

But some people cant handle real football analysis I think. Oh well.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I notice you only moan when the match is on the telly as well.

Is that the only time you get to see the lads?
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To be honest, our defending didn't let us down today - it did at Old Trafford, and even that partially. We were under too much pressure in that match - midfield did not function, and it would be hard for any defence not to concede once or twice. We can still do better in defence ofcource - We just need to get a regular back 4 and play it regularly. Unfortunately it couldn't happen with Johnsen, while Gary Neville's injury was just grave misfortune.

We defended well tonight, limited them to a couple of chances, but our midfield again did not function. Most players could not string 2 passes together. I would actually be a lot more relaxed if those players were not called Nicky, Paul and Ryan - They can and should do much better and I can't really understand what happened.
 
Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>To be honest, our defending didn't let us down today - it did at Old Trafford, and even that partially. We were under too much pressure in that match - midfield did not function, and it would be hard for any defence not to concede once or twice. We can still do better in defence ofcource - We just need to get a regular back 4 and play it regularly. Unfortunately it couldn't happen with Johnsen, while Gary Neville's injury was just grave misfortune.

We defended well tonight, limited them to a couple of chances, but our midfield again did not function. Most players could not string 2 passes together. I would actually be a lot more relaxed if those players were not called Nicky, Paul and Ryan - They can and should do much better and I can't really understand what happened.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Me neither... :(
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The better team won on the day by getting a draw at home.

I thought the "run of the green" didnt go with us tonight especially with the referee but, thats football.

If we win nothing this season, we went to the semis in the EC and lost on the away goal, at home we came scond or possibly third. So feckin what, we are still a great football team.


All power to the team and the opposition for making this year a nail bighter, lets face it, it was getting boring having no real challengers.

All power to Bayer, Liverpool and Arsenal for making this year the closest fought for a long time.

Up the <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>
You cant deny that we were shit and it was our fault, not because they outplayed us. We let them do it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That might be the team's real problem, fans who assume that there is only one squad on the field and that the 11 guys in the different colored outfits have nothing to do with the outcome of the game. If one team played like "shit" maybe it's because the other team outplayed them.

Radical concept, admittedly, but last we checked, some of the folks from Leverkusen were considered professional players and several, I understand, might even suit up for that "soccer" tournament in Japan and Korea later this month (it now being May Day in the UK). Perhaps there is actually a sufficient quantity of talented players so that "on any given day" a team considered weaker (on paper) can actually rise to the occasion and triumph.
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They're a good squad, i've got to give it to them. Whenever we had the ball, 3 of their players would pressure and cause trouble for us, infact they nearly punished us a couple of times cause of their constant pressure. They "hunted" the ball if you will. We were more content with hitting them off the counter, which worked a few times also.
It's just football I suppose, we could've won that match, It wasn't our day. On another day Johnsen would have scored atleast one of those two headers he had, but today it wasn't meant to be.
Looking back I might have prefered Giggsy wide and Ole in attack right off the start, and maybe us exploiting the flanks a bit more. But that's that and it's over.
Keane was superb per usual, Veron had a fine match and so did Scholes. The defense wasn't bad. RVN didn't really get many touches on the ball except for the excellent pass he made to Keano for the goal. As much as I hate to say it, I'd probably have to say Giggsy had a poor game considering his usual standards.

Disappointed i must say, We fought for it, didn't go our way, but hopefully we'll learn from it and come back stronger and better for it.

Keep the red flag flying high.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>You cant deny that we were shit and it was our fault, not because they outplayed us. We let them do it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:confused: :confused: :confused: <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Originally posted by zXe:
<strong>but hopefully we'll learn from it and come back stronger and better for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can't learn from 6/7 goals scoring chances being cleared on the line, especially when one of them was a goal! :(
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<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC

It is actually no use talking to these no-brainers. They have no ideas. They just straddle along with what the majority thinks. And God forbid if someone raise a finger or two against Man.Utd.

You have to forgive them. They just don't have the brain nor the courage to give birth to even an excuse for an idea which might remotely be mistaken for their own.

To claim the defense didn't let us down today is ourageously daft. Well, I guess someone must have two brains, and they simply forgot to give you your share.

Tough luck.

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

You can't learn from 6/7 goals scoring chances being cleared on the line, especially when one of them was a goal! :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

True :(
But that's football isn't it mate. On another day we'd have had those as goals.

My point is we'll learn from whatever we did wrong and be better for it. But yeah, I'd have to say we were unlucky also.
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
[QB]

My problem with this whole semi final was that we let them win. We let them have the ball, we watch them and hope that they give it us. QB]<hr></blockquote>

in a way, i agree. it's not that i think the players didn't want it, but the lack of (clean) tackling from the midfield did get very frustrating.
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Originally posted by GiggsysGirl:
<strong>

in a way, i agree. it's not that i think the players didn't want it, but the lack of (clean) tackling from the midfield did get very frustrating.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Both teams cancelled each other quite well, it's just that I expected us to make much better use of the ball when we did get it.
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i guess most of my frustration was centered on Ryan Giggs play over both legs. He seemed to lose the ball at the crucial moment or make the wrong pass. Nobody has said it yet but we missed David Beckham in this tie. We were to central and Bayer delt with that. Saying all of that we still had two goals cleared off the line and Veron's strike was blocked just in front of the GOal. Keano was massive and Wes was good as well. Its sucks not losing a game but going out at this late stage. Hoping against hope that we beat the Arse and Everton draw with them. Our play deserves a trophy this year. Give Arse the FA CUp we all know that Real will crush Leverkusen for the CL and we win the Prem. One can dream I guess.
 
i guess most of my frustration was centered on Ryan Giggs play over both legs. He seemed to lose the ball at the crucial moment or make the wrong pass. Nobody has said it yet but we missed David Beckham in this tie. We were to central and Bayer delt with that. Saying all of that we still had two goals cleared off the line and Veron's strike was blocked just in front of the GOal. Keano was massive and Wes was good as well. Its sucks not losing a game but going out at this late stage. Hoping against hope that we beat the Arse and Everton draw with them. Our play deserves a trophy this year. Give Arse the FA CUp we all know that Real will crush Leverkusen for the CL and we win the Prem. One can dream I guess.
 
IMO, we blew it in the first leg by letting them score 2. Our defense is the same as last year, when we also conceded 3 goals in the quarter final. I also don't know how they managed to get 3 players on us almost everytime when our player had the ball. May be we've got to try and find another way to deliver the ball into the box instead of long range passes.

Overall though, we just weren't lucky enough. I feel bad for Forlan who almost scored, and how could have Solskjaer missed the follow up??!
If Gary and Becks were there, it would have been a lot different. I missed his crosses in both legs as well as Gary's standard good performances as RB. I guess you don't know what you had until you lose it!

GLORY GLORY MANCHESTER UNITED!!!
 
Originally posted by zXe:
<strong>They're a good squad, i've got to give it to them. Whenever we had the ball, 3 of their players would pressure and cause trouble for us, infact they nearly punished us a couple of times cause of their constant pressure. They "hunted" the ball if you will. We were more content with hitting them off the counter, which worked a few times also.
It's just football I suppose, we could've won that much, It wasn't our day. On another day Johnsen would have scored atleast one of those two headers he had, but today it wasn't meant to be.
Looking back I might have prefered Giggsy wide and Ole in attack right off the start, and maybe us exploiting the flanks a bit more. But that's that and it's over.
Keane was superb per usual, Veron had a fine match and so did Scholes. The defense wasn't bad. RVN didn't really get many touches on the ball except for the excellent pass he made to Keano for the goal. As much as I hate to say it, I'd probably have to say Giggsy had a poor game considering his usual standards.

Disappointed i must say, We fought for it, didn't go our way, but hopefully we'll learn from it and come back stronger and better for it.

Keep the red flag flying high.</strong><hr></blockquote>

no school today zak? agreed with your points as always...
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Originally posted by pigface:
<strong>

no school today zak? agreed with your points as always...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey :)
Nah. Done with that now. Took the day off work.
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This defeat hurts very badly but I still maintain that despite the luck comments by Sir Alex Ferguson, excuse-making is not an appropriate response.

When the Red Devils won at Barcelona were we lucky? I think not - we never gave up and were rewarded by the killer goals of Teddy and Ole. Bayern Munich had their chances but they did not convert them, just as Manchester United did not convert their chances against Leverkausen.

The poor performance at Old Trafford in the first leg cost us a place in the finals. The score needed to be 3-1 or 3-2 our way and we would have been set up beautifully for the German leg.

I most emphatically don`t agree with Sir Alex that bad luck played a part. We should have had a goal buffer with which to go into that game. Yes, yes, I remember Turin but this is now - not the Treble Year.

You might as well argue that Bayern Munich should have won at Barcelona as they made far more scoring opportunities than Manchester United until towards the end of the game. That so called argument won`t wash with me. The team that converts their chances wins the game. Simple.

So lads - I am proud of the way you gave your all in Germany but it just was not enough. You should have made a meal of Leverkausen at Old Trafford. That is why you lost overall.

I am still proud to be a Red Devil but I don`t really want a litany of excuses coming from Old Trafford. Face the facts and move on and learn from them. Please.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>You guys are blind man.

Only in the last 20 minutes did our players move up a gear, seemingly waking up. And they only managed to do it because Bayer started to panic.

You cant deny that we were shit and it was our fault, not because they outplayed us. We let them do it.

But some people cant handle real football analysis I think. Oh well.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't agree with some of your analysis this time. We certainly is a team who is good at organize and co-operate. Just opposite to what you said, talking about individual skill we are never the best in the world, or even the best in the PL. Only Giggs and Beckham can create thing out of nothing by their skill or passing respectively, while for most other players we rely on passing of the ball, one-two and co-operation. Look at some PL matches and I can see no other team can keep the ball and pass the ball so well as us.

I told you what has gone wrong in this match: It was a tactical error from Fergie. We started as a 4-5-1 formation, which effectively grant the poession to Leverkusen. When we got the ball we just can't keep the ball upfront because: 1. Ruud was isolated 2. Scholes was totally ineffective at the right and 3. Veron was not effective when he played in the hole between the midfield and Ruud. Below was our formation today:
Barthez
Brown Blanc Johnsen Silverstre
Scholes Keane Butt
Veron Giggs
Ruud

And it's not any surprising that we lost the ball all over the front line before Ole came in in the second half.

Some players haven't played well, but they have all played hard. If you want to blame someone, blame Fergie.
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My personal view :
(1) the 4-5-1 thing make us a bit handicapped up front ... and hence all the pressure... Long ball don't work cos basically only RVN could chase for it nobody else ... which makes all the pressure of ball easier at our half of the field . ..

(2) Other than Keano, everybody else looks to be in a hurry to release the ball ... For this you could do against Ipswich - but no no for a strong midfield like Bayer ... <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />

There're of course a lot of may be(s) .. . may be with Becks around we could have more balls flying to their area quicker ... may be if Scholesy, Giggsy and Veron has played their heart out a bit more ... may be if Barthez is 6-inches higher than he would have tapped the ball across the bar ... ..... <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
Doesn't really matter now ... The team this year just ain't the one we had in '99 where the spirit and form itself ( how many games continuous without losing ?? ) could scare the opponent off ... And I remembered then - we didn't even lose a game for the whole CL ...!! ( not even when Barcelona and Munich were in the same preliminary group as us ) ...

To think that the team going to Hampden Park ( if we have won ) and just waiting for luck to fall so that we could win it ... it don't really please me in anyway ... I rather we lose at this stage now and look at ourself again, consolidate the team and prepare for next season ...

Remembered the last time Man Utd empty-handed after a season ( where Ars get their double ) ?? ... We have Stam etc coming in ... and we won the Tripple the season after ... That's what I am hoping for now ... for it's not bad after all ... :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by zXe:
<strong>They're a good squad, i've got to give it to them. Whenever we had the ball, 3 of their players would pressure and cause trouble for us, infact they nearly punished us a couple of times cause of their constant pressure. They "hunted" the ball if you will. We were more content with hitting them off the counter, which worked a few times also.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>

When their 3 players pressure our player, we must have had a couple of open men to pass to, don't you think?

The truth hurts. In both matches BL contolled the ball most of the time. As good as we might think BL are, RM will bury them in the finals. And for all the critizism of our defence has had, I would say that it probably much better than BL's.
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Fact is that everyone seemed to underestimate Bayer. When we played them at Anfield in the 1st leg they didn't look particularly strong, remembering that Arsenal beat them 4-1. In fact the 1-0 score could easily have been 3-0 with a little more pressure.

Like most German sides they are very strong tactically and they focused on your weaknesses last night, just like they did against us in the return leg. No shame in going out to a real quality team although an obvious disappointment.
 
Yeah and since when have we used 4-5-1?? We have always used 4-4-2. Because Van Nistelrooy is a lone striker my ass. even with Cantona it was 442.

The probs is the back four. That has been twice that they have let Neuville in. They gave him too much room to turn and shoot. Nobodys mfault.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>You guys are blind man.

Only in the last 20 minutes did our players move up a gear, seemingly waking up. And they only managed to do it because Bayer started to panic.

You cant deny that we were shit and it was our fault, not because they outplayed us. We let them do it.

But some people cant handle real football analysis I think. Oh well.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with your Eastern Analysis, Shaolin.
Mick McCarthy on Irish TV talked about how Leverkusen denied utd the space they normally play in. Why didn't we do the same to them? Over to you, Sir Alex...
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In the last 16 european matches we have only lost two matches. That just a little pointer to eradicate feckin nonsense talk of a lack of desire and all the bollocks i have been hearing since last nights match.

Sometimes things dont go for you! Thats football, like it or lump it.

The only complaint i have about our whole season, which again was evident last night, is the number of individual errors, which has cost us dearly!
 
Originally posted by Cigar:
<strong>In the last 16 european matches we have only lost two matches. That just a little pointer to eradicate feckin nonsense talk of a lack of desire and all the bollocks i have been hearing since last nights match.

Sometimes things dont go for you! Thats football, like it or lump it.

The only complaint i have about our whole season, which again was evident last night, is the number of individual errors, which has cost us dearly!</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's right. It's cruel that we were out when we were not beaten in any one of the two matches against Leverkusen. Speak of individual error, that brought back the old question of the defence. I always said we need to strengthen our defence since two years ago. I always said we will regret it if we didn't strenghthen our defence. Of course I predit it right, but I definitely don't feel happy about it.
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Lets bring in the youth. I thought O'Shea had a good game against Ipswich. He looked quite composed on the ball and can pass pretty well with both legs. Like I said, United has 4 excellent midfield players vying for 2 central slots. They have to resolve this problem. If they are deployed out of position, they will not perform against technically better teams and United will suffer. United needed to groom some right sided mid-field players in the absence of Beckham through injury or weariness. During last night game,when SAF reverted to the 4-4-2 formation, United had their best attacking period throughout the match.
Well, United should put all this setback behind and look forward to the ArSENILE game. I feel that United should go all out to give them another thrashing just like last season. Then at least we the supporters can brood about thrashing the ArSENILE, the likely Champions, unless David Moyes Everton can do something about it.
 
Its simple. If Blanc leaves, we'll have to replace him. Other than that, the current squad should be left intact.
 
If we bring back the pace of 99 back in to our game. We won't be stopped. That pace is what helps Veron shin in argentina cause they use it. Why don;t we??

And they HAVE forgotten what it feels like to be trophyless. The last time it had a "Teble " effect. Lets pray for similar consequences! ;) :cool:
 
I think it's Fergerson's fault that we lost to Bayer, his tactics for both matches were just awful! Solskjaer on the left? (he just gets forward and leave a bit hole on the left)
Giggs just got traped by the 3 bayer central midfielders. V.Nistelrooy was lonely up front.
Veron drifts inside on the right (leave a big gap too), Bustak and Ze Roberto simply gets forward down the sides.
the weird 4-5-1 formation he played in the 2nd leg was just stupid, doesnt Fergie learn from past experience? It's much better to have OGS and RVN up front together.


Also Johnsen has not fully fit yet in the 2nd leg, he kept falling over.

IT'S ALL FERGIE'S FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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