Yeah, whilst at the same time acknowledging that our defence is hugely improved on the ball and playing it out. We have bigger problems than the defence.
Maguire and Lindelof Partnership
- Thread starter luke511
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Liverpool fullbacks are bombing forward at every chance, while ours mostly stay behind with almost zero attacking intent. Also in some games already, we went with back 5 with defense as priority.
Easier to look stats but it’s a context to consider when using them as barometer.
Easier to look stats but it’s a context to consider when using them as barometer.
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The defence needs a lot of protection, that much is for sure. Also, neither are good 1v1 defenders and that takes a lot away from our game, as we constantly have to drop deep as a team to defend, which drains stamina and loses momentum.
Along with @Isotope's post, I'm not sure things like that are reflected in the stats.
Very good point. This happens a lot with strikers targeting Lindelof, he'll get dragged out wide and the space is then wide open for anyone quick to run in behind Maguire on the counter, so normally what will happen is that Lindelof doesn't bother to challenge for the ball at all, or he just plays it out to a throw-in to be safe. Both things ends with our whole team having to transition back to their defensive starting positions.
Happens like 40 times or something in a game, and while I do appreciate the effort of collective defending it seems very insufficient in an attacking sense. So it goes full circle of confusion where people who'd want 'attacking-defense' defends its current effectiveness by defensive numbers, while those of us who cares about solid defence first and foremost speak their case by being concerned about the attacking point of view.
The phrase "sacrificing defence to play out from the back" doesn't quite give an adequate coverage for this mess.
Yes and there seem to be no plan whatsoever, only depending on glimpses of individual actions from James, Martial or Rashford.
Liverpool leave a midfielder behind to protect. In reality their defence is close to 3 at the back in some regards. I wouldn’t say the United fullbacks stay behind, because they don’t, it is just that they are inefficient. And while it is flavour of the month to blame everything in life on Lindelof, it is hardly his nor Maguire’s fault that they can’t score up front or that midfield have no control and no creativity.
Maguire was massively overpriced and Leicester are laughing all the way to the bank. They sold this '£80M' defender and it doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference to them, in fact they are doing much better.
He's a decent PL defender, no more. You pay the World record fee for a defender, you expect a game changer. He's changed nothing.
He's a decent PL defender, no more. You pay the World record fee for a defender, you expect a game changer. He's changed nothing.
It isnt their fault no, but we did have some posters blaming our CBs and suggesting ball playing CBs would improve us in attack the last 12-18 months. Maguire and Lindelof werent saying it but other people were. So the people who suggested that would be a thing, and those that disagreed that its a thing are both looking at Maguire and Lindelof now and whether there was any truth to it, which there isnt.
The people who suggested the CBs would improve our attack are probably coming up with the answer that we need a new CB, they arent doing it properly and thats why it hasnt worked.
While the people who thought it was a stupid suggestion from the start are saying look, it hasnt improved us even after spending all that money on a ball playing CB.
As for our fullbacks, they play the same distance up the pitch whether we have a 3 at the back or a flat back 4. They are fullbacks rather than wingbacks. Thats just how we set up with more protection for our defense, whether they need it or not. It does lead to a bit less pressure on the CBs.
Might not be anything to do with Harry and the fact they are a well run club with a very, very good manager? Not sure why people still don't understand how transfers work. If someone knocks your door, and offers to buy your house, its for you to decide what you want even if it's above the market value. Even if it's not the best house on the street or in the area or that town. That's the price. So the person buys it, not cause it's the best house on the street, area, town but because it's the one they wanted and maybe because you were the only one willing to sell. The situation and circumstances dictated the price, not the house. There are better houses, just not for sale.
Yes. And you have the option of being bent over for that house, or finding another one thats just as good for a more reasonable price
We could have got someone to do at least as good a job as him for half the money. Ake, from yesterday, for example.
Agree. Still nothing to do with the house which is my point.
Of course. Its not like Maguire was on here posting about how he's a top CB worth £80 million
Has Maguire been told not to make those long runs with the ball that marked him out for England and at Leicester? Thought they were his major selling point. Or does he just not trust what's around him enough to charge forward. Wouldn't blame him.
Like said elsewhere, the majority of these players signed to date came here as better players, that somehow turned to shite. Transfers are a lottery and more fail than succeed but good managers get a tune out of players. Good players turn into excellent ones and excellent into world class. We know that cause we had one of the best to do it. Look a Liverpools midfield, those players were on the market and there aren't many Utd fans would have taken them as a unit. Front 3, all available without having to pay record fees. Ake was very good but plays for a very good manager, in a team that the only pressure is to not go down. It makes a massive difference
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Absolutely. Money never equated to the value of a player and goes the other way too. If we were to sell DJ tomorrow, even after a handful of games, we'd double our money. Maybe Swansea feel they were robbed....
Lindelof should have been the one sent out on loan or sold. Smalling and Maguire would be best pairing IMO.
Good point but again seems to be quite common here that we buy players cause they are good at something, then stop them from doing it. We play with ball playing CB's but then play counter-attack football. We'd would have been better buying solely ball winning defenders then? I know he's not a fan fav but we sell Rom cause he doesn't fit our new brand of exciting technical pressing football; and he only scores against lesser teams.....we don't play any new brand of football and have lost to the very teams he'd score against? We play our most creative player who scored and created goals that got Ole the job, then play him as a DM?????
Everyone saying about not replacing Herrera and Fellaini. We also never replaced Matic and play 2 players in his place now. Pogba and now McTominay are not DM and playing them there is a waste. Lukaku and Sanchez were not replaced either and Martial and Rashford will not get the goals needed to get a top 4 spot.
If Ole is not going to be given the backing, we might as well sack him now. But whoever comes in, we need 5/6 players and we need to get rid of-: Mata, Matic, Young, Lingard, Pereira, Fred, Jones, Rojo, Bailly, who are just not good enough for Manchester United.
If Ole is not going to be given the backing, we might as well sack him now. But whoever comes in, we need 5/6 players and we need to get rid of-: Mata, Matic, Young, Lingard, Pereira, Fred, Jones, Rojo, Bailly, who are just not good enough for Manchester United.
Should have thought about that before spending £80 million on a CB
Yes ”some posters” suggested last year’s defence were responsible for poor goalscoring up front,and it seems to be ”some posters” doing the same claim this year as well. Let’s not be “some posters”. The only functioning part is being blamed for everything.
The midfield and attack has been poor this year, and there seem to be no tactics.
I agree our Fullbacks are much more defensive than Liverpool’s. But my comparison with Liverpool and City is still valid. Liverpool and City were outstanding in terms of conceded goals last season (22 and 23) and United defence have conceded 2 and 1 goal more, respectively. There is really nothing to indicate that United would have conceded fewer goals than City and Liverpool if playing with another constellation (like Tuanzebe instead of Lindelof). They have both made mistakes and poor efforts in situations resulting in goals, but as the results show, they have overall had a good record.
He has tried a few times but there is zero movement in midfield nor among attacking players so it has led to nothing. Now it looks like he has given up.
Axel needs to start once he is fit again. I would rather see Rojo for a few games and see how he does with Maguire than Lindelöf. Bailly took Jones' place in the sickbay and Jones is Jones.
I think the obvious thing is that a young player like Tuanzabe, playing in his correct position and adjusting to the premier league will obviously get better over time. With Lindelof he's played a good amount of games for multiple seasons for us. So we know what we're getting by now.
And even if there would be little difference between them, its more exciting and potentially beneficial to see where that wall is with Tuanzabe because we dont know yet like we do with Lindelof. He might not be the answer either, but if we never ask the question we'll never know. Its the same with the other young players although obviously having been out on loan and at 21 years old, Tuanzabe's discovered potential is more important than the others. Especially given all the times Lindelof has looked weak this season.
Also putting Tuanzabe in shouldnt be seen as the end of Lindelof or something. If he's got enough about him he'd see it as a test to get his spot back and perhaps that kick up the backside would see him improve on his weak areas faster and make sure he doesnt drop his level again because he knows he wont keep his place. For now hes playing regardless of how well he plays and clearly thats not getting the best out of him
Agree with most. I personally believe both Tuanzebe and Lindelof (and Maguire) must be successful as United can not afford to spend more on defence when midfield and attack are so weak.
I, like most others, haven’t seen much from Tuanzebe at yet, and the little I have seen did not impress too much but was more or less what I expected from someone who is new to this level. As Ole has played with three at the back a few times I hope we will se a line with AT, HM and VNL. I think that would be interesting and hopefully it can work.
He isn't a game-changer in the sense that VVD was for Liverpool, 100% fair that one, but he did change United. We now have a decent, not spectacular but decent, back line where we play the same central defender partnership in every game. Before Maguire we had a defensive line in which for every game – nobody knew who the players would be. We were shite, now we are ok. That is certainly an important difference. Obviously not equal to the world-record price-tag, but you pay more when you are a crap club. I am glad Maguire was signed, the price tag is to be blamed on Woodward and his horrible recruitment team of morons.
We had Smalling-Blind partnership playing regularly for an entire season under LVG previously.
Lindeloff's man marking is laughable. Where was he for the Bournemouth goal on Saturday?
Smalling would be better.
Maguire is decent and steady but playing 3 centre backs against 1 striker (Thursday cup and Chelsea) is frighteningly bad.
Smalling would be better.
Maguire is decent and steady but playing 3 centre backs against 1 striker (Thursday cup and Chelsea) is frighteningly bad.
I am not sure what you mean here. That United are having holes in defence while Roma don’t have holes? Since Smalling arrived, Roma have played 8 matches and conceded 6 goals. If we look at United’s 8 last matches, United have also conceded 6 goals. No difference.
You do know what I mean though, don't you. But yeah, oh really, another team have conceded goals. Shocker!
It's true. We aren't shipping loads of goals.
The reason we aren't getting results is that we have only scored more than 1 goal in 2 or 3 matches all season.
Our GD is +2 in the league. That's awful for a club with our aspirations.
I really don’t. You say one team has holes in defence but the other hasn’t. But they have the same amount of conceded goals. I can see how someone would think there is some sort of difference but not a huge difference as the conceded goals are the same.
I hope that Tuanzebe can take over from Lindelöf as the season progresses. Tuanzebe is better in the air, stronger and faster than Lindelöf, who might be better on the ball, at least now.
Relative to the post I replied to I do think you got it, but fair enough. I was of the impression that the Roma team had a terrible defence... like defence was the biggest weakness of their team. Their CB's have seen a couple of red cards recently too, so not sure about the overall quality of their defence but my point was Smalling's contribution to tightening up a defence that previously sucked, and reflect that point to speak to his position at United. Many thought he did exactly that through large parts of his time here post SAF. Many disagreed, but Roma fans seems to agree with the opinions of those who appreciated Smalling's contribution to the team. There really wasn't anything to discuss about Maguire and Lindelof here, so might just as well end it on that note.
Finally we agree on something
It certainly looks like Smalling has brought competence and capacity to Roma defence, in such a way it has turned around from not so good to very good. I am just a bit tired of people claiming that the United defence is worthless so I misunderstood you, sorry.Faster and stronger yes, and I think as he gets more comfortable in the first team he will provide more on the ball. Not sure about better in the air though. That was the big weakness that Villa fans mentioned about him last season and we've already seen him struggle with that in his games with us this season. Hopefully it's something he is working hard on though as with his physicality he should be good at it. It has to be a timing and/or judgement issue.
No problem mate. I don't think our defence is worthless, far from it but I don't think the balance is struck yet, and I don't think we're getting enough out of Maguire. I do think it is a bit unfair on him to buy him for 80m and then expect him to be quicker, or better 1vs1 for instance, or a huge leader. I never saw him as a leader, organiser and team player, more just a very good unit that plays his own game very well kinda like Smalling. The least we could do for him was to give him a partner with some pace to help him out initially.Finally we agree on something
Also I do not have faith in Lindelof, hate his style of defending and his passing out from the back is only slightly better than Smalling. He has it in him to pass himself out in a crowded area, but he does what Smalling does consistently anyways so there isn't any actual difference. Even Smalling does those things occasionally too. I don't think he'll ever change his defensive style, which I've come to hate. It is not what he does, it is what he don't do. He can't grab a hold of the game and it puts us under pressure, just sick of watching it. He even did the pass behind Maguire thing quite a few times the last game too, which is precisely what people twisted their panties over with Smalling. It never annoyed me with him because it doesn't really matter that much, it's just a sign he is weak on the ball when it matters but Smalling is just safe with it, not careless so never gave a shit. With Lindelof I do expect him to be a lot better than Smalling on the ball and he isn't, and his defensive side is weak. To top it off, he doesn't provide any sort of balance to get the most out of Maguire.
Simply put, get Smalling back and lets see how that goes before spending another 100m to replace Maguire or whoever.
We can't buy another defender now, but we can't keep playing with Lindelof when it doesn't work, and I never want to see Jones and Rojo either for two-three more years while we wait and hope Tuanzebe is good enough.
Its still very much a work in progress combination.
Sure I'm still indifferent towards Lindelof long-term and I feel Axel will eventually overtake the Swede from the starting eleven purely down to his slightly higher capabilities in the air. And Maguire himself needs to be more dominant too.
Unfortunately,Maguire and Lindelof have one major fault and that's their lack of vocal communication. Both are currently too timid. That needs to change.
Concerning the goal conceded over the weekend; Sure, it was a real mess. The whole back-line didn't cover themselves in glory. From the moment the ball came in to King's positioning and ultimately the eventual strike the look of confusion was apparent on the players faces.
I will give the back four one slight benefit of the doubt and this is purely levelled on the fundamental issues of the individuals in-front of them, in midfield and attack.
I've seen these type of goals conceded by average teams and great teams. The major,and obvious, difference is the good teams aren't so heavily reliant on their defence having a near perfect game every week. Mistakes will happen in the back-line. Just how it is.
When teams concede goals ultimately the question marks are always put upon the defence and keeper. Rarely do you see people looking at the wider aspect of a individuals mistakes in the forward roles or midfield.
A mistake can destabilise the balance of any side whatever the role of individual/s.
As I mentioned above,we're expecting our back line to have near perfect games purely on the basis of compensating for the absolute lack of consistent quality in midfield and attack. Eventually that weight/pressure on the defence is going to give.
The midfield and strike force didn't offer anything on Saturday,either defensively or offensively.
Fred to his credit was the more enthusiastic performer out of a dire bunch. He tried to make something click and did,on more than one occasion, fill in defensively but even then he could be seen ball watching at times.
Concerning Fred's teammates ; McTomminay was poor,Pereira was a disaster,James looked tired and Rashford and Martial were ambivalent while offering no positional intelligence in either circumstance.
Yet,here we are,all the while expecting our defence to bailout these guys ahead of them game after game.
It's laughable.
Sure I'm still indifferent towards Lindelof long-term and I feel Axel will eventually overtake the Swede from the starting eleven purely down to his slightly higher capabilities in the air. And Maguire himself needs to be more dominant too.
Unfortunately,Maguire and Lindelof have one major fault and that's their lack of vocal communication. Both are currently too timid. That needs to change.
Concerning the goal conceded over the weekend; Sure, it was a real mess. The whole back-line didn't cover themselves in glory. From the moment the ball came in to King's positioning and ultimately the eventual strike the look of confusion was apparent on the players faces.
I will give the back four one slight benefit of the doubt and this is purely levelled on the fundamental issues of the individuals in-front of them, in midfield and attack.
I've seen these type of goals conceded by average teams and great teams. The major,and obvious, difference is the good teams aren't so heavily reliant on their defence having a near perfect game every week. Mistakes will happen in the back-line. Just how it is.
When teams concede goals ultimately the question marks are always put upon the defence and keeper. Rarely do you see people looking at the wider aspect of a individuals mistakes in the forward roles or midfield.
A mistake can destabilise the balance of any side whatever the role of individual/s.
As I mentioned above,we're expecting our back line to have near perfect games purely on the basis of compensating for the absolute lack of consistent quality in midfield and attack. Eventually that weight/pressure on the defence is going to give.
The midfield and strike force didn't offer anything on Saturday,either defensively or offensively.
Fred to his credit was the more enthusiastic performer out of a dire bunch. He tried to make something click and did,on more than one occasion, fill in defensively but even then he could be seen ball watching at times.
Concerning Fred's teammates ; McTomminay was poor,Pereira was a disaster,James looked tired and Rashford and Martial were ambivalent while offering no positional intelligence in either circumstance.
Yet,here we are,all the while expecting our defence to bailout these guys ahead of them game after game.
It's laughable.
Jones & Smalling > Maguire & Lindelof
Honestly defence is the least of our problems. We should be able to concede a goal a game and not be completely fecked, but due to our non-existent attack, more often than not we're fudged if the opposition score .
No, just no
The chuckle Brothers were a disaster waiting to happen. Not to mention one or another was always it injured.
Let's give this partnership a little more time. Besides making some errors, they are also not helped by the fact that we have a negligible midfield and a very limited attack that almost never scores over a goal a game.