Mag plays on the left victor on the right.
Maguire and Lindelof Partnership
- Thread starter luke511
- Start date
There goes to show whoever said that Lindelof was the "leader" at the back. Poor observant.
Smalling won 65% of his aerial duels last season in PL and 60% of his headers in CL.
This is what I’m talking about. Seems there is no initial plan who is marking who. Three players in 2-3 yards space are pointing at opposition players.
The people who say he passed on his responsibility, do you mean he should have left his area, run around Rashford and marked Vestergaard?
I believe in this duo. It looks calm and overall the defence has been good. So far the (last season's) top 6 have conceded:
Liverpool 3
City 3
United 4
Arsenal 6
Tottenham 6
Chelsea 9
The problem is not the defence, it is the inability to score goals.
What I think is that we should have had our best header mark Vestergaard right from the corner and position others zonal. Vestergaard is their main threat from set pieces. Move other into zonal and stick with that.
When DDG pushed it away our best header should've sticked with Vestergaard and others zonal.
Not only from the screen but from the whole situation it doesn't seem that we have a plan on how to defend a set piece.
I mean look at the screen mate. We have 5 players around Vestergaard and he's still left with space to leap and attack the ball. It's madness.
Also our defensive record is shaky so far. We were not expected to concede 2 goals against Palace and we could've prevented both goals against Wolves and Soton.
That makes sense. I watched the corner again and there seem to be no plan. Why not put Maguire on Vestergaard on the corner? Instead they put Young to mark him and diaturb his run and Lindelof has the zone where he is most likely to turn up. Would've made more sense to put the strongest against him.
This is what I’m talking about. Seems there is no initial plan who is marking who. Three players in 2-3 yards space are pointing at opposition players.
It's so freaking obvious, the biggest threat there was Vestergaard. Lindelof should have time to stick to him while the cross was floating to the box.
Exactly!
Also Soton's forwards are 5ft 10'' and 5ft 9''. It's clear for anyone who has watched just one of their games that Vestergaard is their main attacking threat.
Even after DDG pushed it away you can clearly see their plan and that he is their main attacking threat from set pieces.
Discard AWB not pressing quicker and blocking that cross - it's inexcusable to put Ashley fecking Young on a 6ft6 Vestergaard then have FIVE defenders around him and still him having an yard of space. Schoolboy stuff.
One of the people saying it is possibly the best United defender ever. Maybe his opinion is more valid than most.
Plus our goals conceded have been down to individual errors, so cut them out and we’re in a much better position.
Wouldn't every team be in a much better position, if individual errors for goals, were omitted?
I know Ferdinand was a good defender, but it doesn't mean he is right in everything he says.
Rio: "If you look at the two CB for the goal, they know where the danger is, they are both pointing. They shod shuffle against the danger man. They are both passing the buck there. "
According to Ferdinand, Lindelof and Maguire are both passing the buck. This I don't agree with. Vestergaard moved pretty far away from the central area and this is their main focus.
Rio also said that he wanted Lindelof to get tight to Vestergaard so I think he wanted Lindelof to leave his zone, and follow him where ever he went.
I don't see this as an individual error however. Lindelof could have done better at stopping him from getting up, Rashford should have stopped Vestergaards run, DDG should have left his line to stop the cross and Bissaka should have done better to stop the cross. Pogba was very passive. And most of all: United have one of the most dominant players in the air in Maguire, he should have taken Vestergaard on the corner.
It needs time together. This is another reason why Ed woodward is an idiot. He spends all this time negotiating only to pay the asking price. All that wasted time, Maguire could have been with us pre-season and Maguire and Lindelof would have more games under their belt (rather than just the four)
We need to give them time together as you can see elements of what Ole is trying to implement. I said it in another thread and some may disagree, but for what Ole wants and how we want to play, in terms of press and building out from the back, we need a better keeper for that (for both distribution and sweeping up). DDG isnt the man for that imo.
We need to give them time together as you can see elements of what Ole is trying to implement. I said it in another thread and some may disagree, but for what Ole wants and how we want to play, in terms of press and building out from the back, we need a better keeper for that (for both distribution and sweeping up). DDG isnt the man for that imo.
Indeed they would, but are you suggesting basic errors are all ok and we just have to put up with them?
Sorry but he's a specialist in his area. If he's saying there an issue, then there's an issue. Ball is in Lindelof's zone, he goes to the danger.
But what you're saying now is that Lindelof should take care of his zone, not follow Vestergaard. Opposite of Rio.
Rio didn't mention him following anyone, not sure where you go that from. I don't believe anyone mentioned man marking. Going to the danger in your area is a tad different to following a player around.
Southampton had 2 players on the edge of the 6 yard area and floated in a across, Maguire was stood behind his man, ready to intercept, Lindelof was marking space and reacted way too slowly.
People are too quick to make judgements. Be patient and give them time to develop a partnership, and make your first judgement at the end of the season.
Lindeleof made serious error with aerial ball every game this season now being noticed because we conceded last 2. Teams are targeting him.
One of the worst partnerships i've ever seen at the club.
How Axel don't get his chance when Lindelof is doing mistakes every single game i don't know. Is there some Scandinavian favoritism going on that we don't know about?
Axel were one of our better performers during Pre Season.
How Axel don't get his chance when Lindelof is doing mistakes every single game i don't know. Is there some Scandinavian favoritism going on that we don't know about?
Axel were one of our better performers during Pre Season.
Not sure I agree here. This partnership can work, but we need to play to their strengths. 2 ball playing defenders is usually set up for high press which will make them more comfortable, but they have to be positioned much higher up the pitch.
If we remove the aerial threat being constantly posed near our box we should take care of defending set pieces next and that can also be worked on so Lindelof doesn't get exposed.
Both are good defenders but that partnership needs games and a lot of work.
Really? After 3 games you can see this?
Of course! That's it ... joking aside, I doubt that very, very much.
I think a lot on here seriously overate Axels ability but he will definitely get games this season so we can take a proper look at him and how he performs for us. Fingers crossed he will be a top CB for us.
Both too slow for high line
So is it fair to say Ole has no intention of playing high pressing football, considering he went and bought Maguire for 80m?
Maybe I misunderstood what he meant by getting "tight earlier on". Anyway, fully agree they need to improve. Poor defending at setpiexes was a problem last season as well. But I don't agree that Linfelof and Maguire were passing the buck. The strategy at the corner was most likely that they defended the zone in front of goal and that other players like Young was going to make Vestergaards run difficult. When the ball was deflected they stayed with that strategy and the reason they pointed was to tell Rashford to get tight on Vestergaard. That's how it looked like at least.
Solskjær's view on the situation:
You don’t expect your centre-back to win every single one, it’s not like he’s a little boy, Vestergaard, we should have done better and stopped the cross and those were the 10 seconds they created something.
The problem is, when you're a centre-back and you're telling your centre forward to pick up a man and you're not really marking anyone, then you sort of are passing the buck.
We were marking the zones from the corner, but once the corner is over, you pick up men and defend. Nobody zonal marks from normal crosses. Lindelof - as the CB - should see that the only danger here is close to him and move to deal with it, not just point and get someone else to do his job.
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It could turn out to be a good partnership but doubts over Lindelof's ability to deal with the physical challenge have strong basis in peformances for good while now. There's a certain level of dominance that every CB should have and be really needs to improve in this department. Even Matip who is the lesser in Livepools pairing has that ability to put on the brute force. Teams will target any CB that hasn't got that.
Young was stood in front of Lindelöf, bit odd he’d ask him to mark a back post defender?
Your right sided central defender (regardless of who it it) should be on the biggest thread in the right side of the 6 yard box. And it’s not about winning them all, it’s about not allowing them an easy run up and virtually a free header. If you watch Maguire he was in control of his area. Lindelöf wasn’t.
What I said is that it looked like they stayed with that defence strategy. Vestergaard went some distance out and I'm not sure how far Lindelof is supposed to move from the goal to mark him instead. To me it would have made sense if Rashford had tried to stop his run.
Edit: look at the photo. Should Lindelof follow Vestergaard? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. And Rashford should do nothing?
Young marked Vestergaard on the corner.
According to Rio, Maguire was passing the buck. I disagree.
Which is a bizarre decision really if they did... marking a standard cross zonally is asking for trouble. Ultimately, you expect a strong CB to take charge of the situation, sense the danger and do their best to deal with it... and really, Lindelof didn't have to move far to pick him up, just a few steps backwards. It's not like he's where Maguire is and would have to run across the box.
Basically, you swap over Lindelof and Maguires position, I don't think you'd see Maguire defending that scenario in the same way.
It was not me who said Maguire failed to take responsibility, it was Rio Ferdinand. But I believe other than Maguire and Lindelof could help out, specifically Rashford in this case and try to stop the run.
And it was not really to just take a few steps back as Vestwrgaard had the possibility to use Rashford as a screener and run in the centre instead, ending up where there would be no defender if Lindelof had taken off.
No he didn’t, he said Maguire was telling Lindelöf where the danger was, Lindelöf then told Rashford, whilst marking space. Maguire is in full control of the left side of the box, as that’s his area. Lindelöf is stood in the middle of the box between the only 2 attackers, his poor positioning means he’s got his back to the only real threat. You think that’s fine, then all is well. I disagree.
Had Southampton flooded the area then fair dos, but it was 2 players and the central defenders should have them
covered as that’s their job.
I don't think we have been bad defensively if you look at the saves De Gea has needed to make, it's very few. The problem is we have been punished for the one or two bad mistakes we have made in the game.
The Southampton one was terrible. About 6 players in the box all pointing at each other whilst the tallest player for Southampton has a free run. Palace also the first goal was very poor to concede.
As someone else has pointed out it's our forward play that needs sorting.
The Southampton one was terrible. About 6 players in the box all pointing at each other whilst the tallest player for Southampton has a free run. Palace also the first goal was very poor to concede.
As someone else has pointed out it's our forward play that needs sorting.
Not fine, but I dont think it is wrong to expect Rashford to get close to him. If he is in the box he should also contribute to the defence. But you are right, there were only two in the box plus the guy hitting the cross (who also could have dribbled).
I understand it as Ferdinand thought Maguire didnt do his job.
He blamed Lindelof but also Maguire:
"If you look at the two centre-halves for the goal, they know where the danger is, they’re both pointing.
‘They should shuffle against the danger man. They’re both passing the buck there"
But I also believe there were more interviews and he might have said things in different ways.
Again, agree they have something they really need to work on. Even if the goal came after the set piece they look very unorganized.
Also, I should admit I am not knowledgeable enough to say whether Rashford should help in the box or not, it just made sense to me as he was there but did not move a single inch.
As I’ve said multiple times, when you’re the left central defender you cover the dangers on the left side of the 6 yard box. Maguire played on the left and had his man well covered and was ready to react. Lindelöf however was marking space, with his back to the single player on his side of the 6 yard box. It’s really not a difficult thing to grasp...
That's just not how football works though, this isn't like when a manager puts a player specifically on a player in open play (a la Park vs Pirlo). We're talking about a short space of time where DDG's parries and the back line's priority is reforming their shape in the few seconds it takes for the ball to come in again. It's a great hanging ball and the only realistic way to stop Vestergaard getting the run on it would be to block him which is now super risky with VAR but someone should have at least been in front of him to stop him getting a running jump.
Most CBs, not just Lindelof, would lose that header because he's at a disadvantage in terms of the angle of the cross/where Vestergaard is and the fact that Vestergaard is an absolute mountain - he's ~2m tall.
For me, I think it was AWB who ended up following the ball out but he has to shut down that cross much faster. The So'ton player allowed the ball to run all the way out of the box whilst he picked his cross. If he puts pressure on he'll either turn back and the danger passes or he'll try and take him on but there's so many bodies around you'd hope he'd be well covered.
Secondly, I still think these types of balls will hurt us unless DDG changes his game and comes off his line a bit more. The Header was well within the 6 yard box and the cross was only ever going back stick so I'd like to see some anticipation there, it's something some of our former keepers used to do regularly because it doesn't matter how good a defender is aerially, if someone of vestergaards size has a) got the run on you and b) the cross is high quality then 9 times out of 10 he wins that header.
Maguires a great signing. Lindelof is still as weak as piss and not suited to the Premier league. A centre half that can't out jump a midget!
Take a look at the whole situation again mate. We had plenty of time to position ourselves in the box.
Assuming you've actually read my post as I'm referencing something specific, what other example can you give of a CB ignoring his positional responsibilities in this kind of scenario and running to solely man mark one player - I've genuinely never seen it both playing and watching football in thirty years. There are a generous 5 seconds from DDG's save to the goal and in that time United reform a defensive line and McT/Rashford move out from playing everyone onside. We actually were relatively organised.
It was a great ball in (which I think could have been prevented) and a great header (which I think only DDG can stop by coming for it) from a player that beats any of our CBs in the air with the angle and run up he had. I've watched the clip like 10 times and it's essentially us getting Fellaini'd - there's not a whole lot you can do to stop it when the delivery is that on point. It's rubbish but it's like that Ibra header vs Wes Morgan where he was slightly behind him and therefore gets the jump over him because he's so tall. I don't think anyone blamed Morgan after that goal and Vestergaard is taller than Ibra.
Obviously we didn't drop points because of this one scenario but I actually don't think in this instance it's a huge error from either CB. Lindelof is in an ok position to defend the cross, issue is he's got a giant behind him. Maguire isn't at fault at all aside from he looks to be in control of our defensive line and we stay too deep which allows Vestergaard to run onto the ball. If we'd pushed up and it was a standing jump, he'd likely still win the header vs Lindelof but it would have been so much harder to score than being able to run on to the ball.
Whilst Smalling cant even pass a parcel, He definitely wouldn't have lost those 2 headers. Which directly led to equalising goals, against Crystal Palace & Southampton. We should have atleast 5 more points on the table!
so Lindelof is this year's scape goat. when the defense does well its a defensive effort when we concede Lindelof is at fault. It's clear and obvious no VAR needed