Madeleine McCann

The Don said:
If you're asked to discuss it, you can only be truthful and say what you really feel. If you're right or wrong it doesn't matter, it's not like your personal opinion would hold any sway.

I personally have a gut feeling that the parents were involved. I think they sedated the child and left her alone so they could go out. I think they accidently overdosed her, panicked and hid her body. In the absence of any proof together with claims of a cover up by Portuguese authorities, it's actually hard for me to look elsewhere, tbh. I'd love to be proven wrong and for her to be found, alive, after being kidnapped for adoption or whatever but that isn't my gut feeling.
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It doesn't matter when one person says it but when the public at large has doubts? With the Ramsey case the public generally accepted the parents were involved, for the same types of reasons you might suspect the McCanns. The Ramseys' story seemed illogical and implausible, with evidence pointing to their involvement. Their guilt became part of pop culture, referenced on TV, books, newspapers etc. The people criticising and verbally attacking them were certain they were guilty, until it turned out they weren't. Unfortunately the mother had died at that stage, still not knowing who killed her kid and with the public hating her.

My point is, each individual person who believed they were guilty felt they were doing nothing wrong, but the cumulative effect of those doubts was pretty damaging. It's fair enough having an opinion but you have to accept that, as with the Ramsey case, there's probably evidence and proof the general public isn't aware of. As such any outside opinion is pure speculation and guesswork, so it's unfair if their guilt is widely presumed on that basis.
 
Redlambs said:
I said the opposite actually, but yeah you have a point here.






Yeah, I suppose I know the answer. It just baffles me how one set of parents can be so tragically neglectful, let alone a number of them! Not to mention drugging your children first, but am I right in saying that's been denied by them?
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They didn't drug their children at all though, their two babies were tested and had nothing in their system and there's absolutely nothing to it as a theory.

They made a mistake in leaving their child alone and they'll pay for it for the rest of their life, its extremely vindictive and twisted the way some people love to go after them about it. I guess on some psychological level its much easier for people to place the blame squarely on the parents rather than face the reality of a random kidnapping.
 
JulesWinnfield said:
They didn't drug their children at all though, their two babies were tested and had nothing in their system and there's absolutely nothing to it as a theory.

They made a mistake in leaving their child alone and they'll pay for it for the rest of their life, its extremely vindictive and twisted the way some people love to go after them about it. I guess on some psychological level its much easier for people to place the blame squarely on the parents rather than face the reality of a random kidnapping.
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I'm not throwing any accusations but the McCanns behavior has been very strange throughout this in my opinion.
 
JulesWinnfield said:
They didn't drug their children at all though, their two babies were tested and had nothing in their system and there's absolutely nothing to it as a theory.

They made a mistake in leaving their child alone and they'll pay for it for the rest of their life, its extremely vindictive and twisted the way some people love to go after them about it. I guess on some psychological level its much easier for people to place the blame squarely on the parents rather than face the reality of a random kidnapping.
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But isn't that obvious? Do you think, for example, that I hold them as worse than the actual person/people who committed the crime?

I just don't like how it's brushed off as a 'mistake'. It goes beyond that in my opinion, it's neglect and it's the cause of all this. That shouldn't be forgotten, nor should the fact they themselves may still be even more involved. It's not 'vindictive' to suggest that, and it's certainly not about 'loving' it as you put. And 'random' kidnapping? We don't know that do we? You don't know that any more than you know they didn't drug her.

And that's the point. We don't know exactly what happened, we don't know where that little girl is either. All we do know is they fecked off out and left those kids alone and helpless and the worst case scenario happened. Bad things happen all the time, but they made the odds infinitely worse and yes they will have to suffer for the rest of their lives and I don't wish that on them or anyone. But let's not brush off the initial act as simply a mistake or error of judgement, because I personally believe it's much worse than that. Those children depended on their parents for a safe environment and they were left alone. That's the one fact we do know, it's the cause of all this and that poor little girl's fate.
 
Redlambs said:
But isn't that obvious? Do you think, for example, that I hold them as worse than the actual person/people who committed the crime?

I just don't like how it's brushed off as a 'mistake'. It goes beyond that in my opinion, it's neglect and it's the cause of all this. That shouldn't be forgotten, nor should the fact they themselves may still be even more involved. It's not 'vindictive' to suggest that, and it's certainly not about 'loving' it as you put. And 'random' kidnapping? We don't know that do we? You don't know that any more than you know they didn't drug her.

And that's the point. We don't know exactly what happened, we don't know where that little girl is either. All we do know is they fecked off out and left those kids alone and helpless and the worst case scenario happened. Bad things happen all the time, but they made the odds infinitely worse and yes they will have to suffer for the rest of their lives and I don't wish that on them or anyone. But let's not brush off the initial act as simply a mistake or error of judgement, because I personally believe it's much worse than that. Those children depended on their parents for a safe environment and they were left alone. That's the one fact we do know, it's the cause of all this and that poor little girl's fate.
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Considering there have been millions of pounds sunk into a couple of investigations over a number of years spanning multiple forces, if the parents were involved it's highly unlikely they'd have got away with it by now. All anyone seems to be pinning it on them for in this thread is stupid stuff like gut feelings and false stories. Most the reasons anyone thinks they're involved is due to the bad reporting in the tabloids for which they've sued successfully. But the made up or misreported stories have stuck and get endlessly repeated regardless of accuracy. And once that happen's its pretty much impossible to stop, as you can see with virtually any conspiracy theory.
 
What happens if they do find her? She goes back to her parents knowing that they neglected her and they are so overprotective that they smother her (figuratively). If she is alive and she's living a fecking awful life surely it's not going to be much better returning to this clusterfeck situation back here.

Still can't believe the parents left her alone to be honest, you can say all you want that whoever did it shouldn't have, and that's true, but at the same time you can't waltz around behaving as if the world is a perfect place where nothing bad happens.
 
JulesWinnfield said:
Considering there have been millions of pounds sunk into a couple of investigations over a number of years spanning multiple forces, if the parents were involved it's highly unlikely they'd have got away with it by now. All anyone seems to be pinning it on them for in this thread is stupid stuff like gut feelings and false stories. Most the reasons anyone thinks they're involved is due to the bad reporting in the tabloids for which they've sued successfully. But the made up or misreported stories have stuck and get endlessly repeated regardless of accuracy. And once that happen's its pretty much impossible to stop, as you can see with virtually any conspiracy theory.
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I agree with that. But it's not something I've done and I'm not vindicating them of the crime or loving saying any of this.

I'm also not comparing them to the people who've actually carried out the crime at all, that's far worse obviously. I just think a lot of people want to call it a 'mistake' or other things, when let's face it, it's neglect and it's their fault this happened in the first place. Do they deserve to live in guilt for the rest of their lives? No. Do I personally think they should be punished beyond that? Not really, though I'm glad I'm not the one who makes those decisions. But let's call a spade a spade here, it's neglect.

Besides, there's no way the police would have cleared them 100% anyway, so I don't blame others for not. I myself think there's more to it, though as I've stated, I don't believe they are directly involved.
 
Snowjoe said:
What happens if they do find her? She goes back to her parents knowing that they neglected her and they are so overprotective that they smother her (figuratively). If she is alive and she's living a fecking awful life surely it's not going to be much better returning to this clusterfeck situation back here.

Still can't believe the parents left her alone to be honest, you can say all you want that whoever did it shouldn't have, and that's true, but at the same time you can't waltz around behaving as if the world is a perfect place where nothing bad happens.
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As I said above, bad things happen all the time. But when you go out and leave your kids alone, even for a few minutes, you greatly increase the chances of one of those things happening. And for what?
 
Redlambs said:
As I said above, bad things happen all the time. But when you go out and leave your kids alone, even for a few minutes, you greatly increase the chances of one of those things happening. And for what?
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Thing is, I think that kind of "neglect" is more common than you're letting on. I remember reading suggested guidelines over how long you can leave children at whatever age alone for. For years 3+ it said they could be left alone for around an hour and a half, depending on how safe the environment is. Obviously the McCanns didn't assess the environment properly and also left the two year old twins alone too but still, they were a 45 second walk away and checked on them within that time period. These were supposedly safe guidlines too, I can imagine a lot of parents pushing those boundries if they felt the area was safe. Poor judgement certainly but I think a lot of people would fail that standard of "neglect" at some point.

Edit: I should point out that was talking about a home environment, such as kids in a seperate room in the house, rather than a holiday resort. Again, they were definitely wrong and stupid, I just suspect other parents have done the same.
 
sullydnl said:
Any time I see people suggest that either the parents or their friends were involved I'm reminded of the Jeanbenet Ramsey case. The parents in that case were under constant and widespread suspicion of having killed their child until DNA evidence eventually corroborated their version of events. Just goes to show how pointless speculation is when you have zero proof or insight into the situation.
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Yep the media destroyed them and they didnt do it.
 
sullydnl said:
Thing is, I think that kind of "neglect" is more common than you're letting on. I remember reading suggested guidelines over how long you can leave children at whatever age alone for. For years 3+ it said they could be left alone for around an hour and a half, depending on how safe the environment is. Obviously the McCanns didn't assess the environment properly and also left the two year old twins alone too but still, they were a 45 second walk away and checked on them within that time period. These were supposedly safe guidlines too, I can imagine a lot of parents pushing those boundries if they felt the area was safe. Poor judgement certainly but I think a lot of people would fail that standard of "neglect" at some point.

Edit: I should point out that was talking about a home environment, such as kids in a seperate room in the house, rather than a holiday resort. Again, the were definitely wrong and stupid, I just suspect other parents have done the same.
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Are these genuine suggested guidelines? What feckhead suggests its safe to leave kids of 3 alone for an hour and a half?

Edit: Just seeing your edit. Kids in a separate room for an hour and a half is different than kids alone in a house/hotel room.
 
The Neviller said:
Are these genuine suggested guidelines? What feckhead suggests its safe to leave kids of 3 alone for an hour and a half?
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Obviously people who don't have kids. You can't leave a 3yr old alone for a minuite, never mind an hour!
If you leave your kids alone for more than a few mins it's bad parenting, extremely bad parenting. Fair enough if its an emergency, or the kids are a bit older but fecking hell, you don't abandon kids under 5 and even then at 5/6 years of age, you wouldn't leave them more than 10/15 mins.
 
The Don said:
Obviously people who don't have kids. You can't leave a 3yr old alone for a minuite, never mind an hour!
If you leave your kids alone for more than a few mins it's bad parenting, extremely bad parenting. Fair enough if its an emergency, or the kids are a bit older but fecking hell, you don't abandon kids under 5 and even then at 5/6 years of age, you wouldn't leave them more than 10/15 mins.
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I assume it means when they're asleep.
 
When do people think is an acceptable age to leave kids alone for this sort of amount of time?
 
The Neviller said:
Are these genuine suggested guidelines? What feckhead suggests its safe to leave kids of 3 alone for an hour and a half?
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Yeah, though like I said in the edit this was in a home environment. For example, I know when I was around four my parents would have happily left me asleep in my room for a couple of hours if they needed to head over to our neighbour's or something. That wasn't safe or right either but they did it as this was at the family home and they felt safe, plus they were close enough to pop over and check. Hell, my parents used to leave me alone in the kids section of the public library when I was around 5 for the hour and a half while they did weekly shopping or whatever. My point is, I doubt many parents constantly do the safe thing all the time.
 
Plenty of people I know think the parents had something to do with it, one person has it all worked out. That they sedated the kids so that they could go out at night and gave Madeline to much and it killed her and they dumped her body at a construction site.
There are still plenty of questions left unanswered and quite possibly we will never get an answer for them.
Do I think they had anything to do with it, I really don't know, all I know is that I would never leave my kids on their own in a holiday complex to go and have a meal, you take them with you or don't go.
If they are guilty of anything, it is stupidity and boy have they paid a high price for it.
I do thing that the poor girl is dead.
 
The Don said:
Obviously people who don't have kids. You can't leave a 3yr old alone for a minuite, never mind an hour!
If you leave your kids alone for more than a few mins it's bad parenting, extremely bad parenting. Fair enough if its an emergency, or the kids are a bit older but fecking hell, you don't abandon kids under 5 and even then at 5/6 years of age, you wouldn't leave them more than 10/15 mins.
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Like Cider said, this is like during a nap while you're in the family home, obviously not in a strange area. I'm not saying this kind of thing is good parenting, I just doubt any parent has managed to keep up correct, safe standards at all times. A lot of parents do really stupid things, they're just normally lucky enough to get away with it.
 
I find the Mccanns to be quite infuriating and cold most of the time. I would have a bit more respect for them if they can out and openly advised others to never leave children unattended but they would never do that as it would mean they would have to admit that they were neglectful.

I am on my phone atm so I can't link any videos but I believe there were serious flaws to the investigations. The Mccanns completely dismissed the alerts that the two bloodhounds found in the villa. I'd trust the pair of dogs over the Mccanns, yet may I add the dogs haven't wrongfully alerted in the past for the British Police but according to the Mccanns they were wrong on this occasion.
 
sullydnl said:
Thing is, I think that kind of "neglect" is more common than you're letting on. I remember reading suggested guidelines over how long you can leave children at whatever age alone for. For years 3+ it said they could be left alone for around an hour and a half, depending on how safe the environment is. Obviously the McCanns didn't assess the environment properly and also left the two year old twins alone too but still, they were a 45 second walk away and checked on them within that time period. These were supposedly safe guidlines too, I can imagine a lot of parents pushing those boundries if they felt the area was safe. Poor judgement certainly but I think a lot of people would fail that standard of "neglect" at some point.

Edit: I should point out that was talking about a home environment, such as kids in a seperate room in the house, rather than a holiday resort. Again, they were definitely wrong and stupid, I just suspect other parents have done the same.
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This cant be true, if it is then is is fecking stupid advise.
leaving a 3 year old on its own for 90 minutes in my book is neglect.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
This cant be true, if it is then is is fecking stupid advise.
leaving a 3 year old on its own for 90 minutes in my book is neglect.
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As I said above, this is in the family home with the parents nearby (like in a seperate room), quite different to what the McCanns did. I only remember it because I used to babysit some of my younger cousins when they were around that age. I know for sure that when they were having a nap or something I didn't check on them that often, I just left the doors in the house open so I could hear them if they woke. The family home is very different though as it's a safe environment the kid knows, what the McCanns did was obviously unacceptable. My parents did similarly unacceptable things though, as I pointed out in the post above, so I'm not convinced that it's really all that uncommon.
 
sullydnl said:
Yeah, though like I said in the edit this was in a home environment. For example, I know when I was around four my parents would have happily left me asleep in my room for a couple of hours if they needed to head over to our neighbour's or something. That wasn't safe or right either but they did it as this was at the family home and they felt safe, plus they were close enough to pop over and check. Hell, my parents used to leave me alone in the kids section of the public library when I was around 5 for the hour and a half while they did weekly shopping or whatever. My point is, I doubt many parents constantly do the safe thing all the time.
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Maybe they were trying to tell you something.
 
Nah, I have a 5 year old and I'd never leave him alone at home. Even with the 11 year old there we still wouldn't go too far.
 
sullydnl said:
As I said above, this is in the family home with the parents nearby (like in a seperate room), quite different to what the McCanns did. I only remember it because I used to babysit some of my younger cousins when they were around that age. I know for sure that when they were having a nap or something I didn't check on them that often, I just left the doors in the house open so I could hear them if they woke. The family home is very different though as it's a safe environment the kid knows, what the McCanns did was obviously unacceptable. My parents did similarly unacceptable things though, as I pointed out in the post above, so I'm not convincted that it's really all that uncommon.
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But that is not really leaving them on their own, you would not go to the shops for instance and leave them sleeping.
I know what you are saying and in the family home on their own in different rooms is OK, unless the child is a young baby and not asleep.
There is more to it than what the McCanns are telling, hopefully it will come out one day.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
But that is not really leaving them on their own, you would not go to the shops for instance and leave them sleeping.
I know what you are saying and in the family home on their own in different rooms is OK, unless the child is a young baby and not asleep.
There is more to it than what the McCanns are telling, hopefully it will come out one day.
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True but the McCanns were supposed to be a 45 second walk away though, that's not that far. It wasn't right but it doesn't strike me as so unusual that it's suspicious, just normal stupidity.

A lot depends on the environment. When me and my younger brother and sister were kids (around 8, 6 and 4) our parents would let us go wandering for hours and hours in the fields and woods near our house, over a pretty massive area. That probably sounds fairly dodgy but the truth is we lived in a ridiculously safe place. At the end of the day parents have to make their own judgement based on the environment they're in, the McCanns were just pretty crap at it.
 
Ciderman90210 said:
I assume it means when they're asleep.
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Even still, kids wake up unexpectedly, I'm sure you know that by now. Just out of interest, how often do you check on your new daughter when she's sleeping? How long would you leave her, in the house on her own?

Also, like I said before its even worse doing it with a toddler, there's no telling what they could get up to.
 
sullydnl said:
True but the McCanns were supposed to be a 45 second walk away though, that's not that far. It wasn't right but it doesn't strike me as so unusual that it's suspicious, just normal stupidity.

A lot depends on the environment. When me and my younger brother and sister were kids (around 8, 6 and 4) our parents would let us go wandering for hours and hours in the fields and woods near our house, over a pretty massive area. That probably sounds fairly dodgy but the truth is we lived in a ridiculously safe place. At the end of the day parents have to make their own judgement based on the environment they're in, the McCanns were just pretty crap at it.
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I don't know how old you are, I am nearly 50 and when I was a kid I would spend all day in Heaton Park, and only go home when hungry or it was going dark, it was a different time then and you could do that, but I don't let my 2 out of my sight now, it is a bit sad really that kids cant be left t play any more.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
It only takes a minute to steal a car, but I can see what you mean.
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Maybe it's where I get my petrol too. There's never ever a queue and I literally just hand the lad the cash. I wouldn't even take the keys from the ignition if I was there alone (I do when the kids are in the car in-case he starts messing).
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Maybe it's where I get my petrol too. There's never ever a queue and I literally just hand the lad the cash. I wouldn't even take the keys from the ignition if I was there alone (I do when the kids are in the car in-case he starts messing).
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Living in Wythenshawe, they would steal the filling from your teeth if they thought they could get away with it, some would try just for the fun of it.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
I don't know how old you are, I am nearly 50 and when I was a kid I would spend all day in Heaton Park, and only go home when hungry or it was going dark, it was a different time then and you could do that, but I don't let my 2 out of my sight now, it is a bit sad really that kids cant be left t play any more.
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I'm 24 but I was lucky enough to grow up in an area where you could still do that. During the summer we'd be out until it got dark and the bats came out. That's a proper quality childhood, shame there are fewer and fewer places you can do that. Still, a lot of my little cousins in rural areas in Ireland are the same, it hasn't totally gone.
 
sullydnl said:
I'm 24 but I was lucky enough to grow up in an area where you could still do that. During the summer we'd be out until it got dark and the bats came out. That's a proper quality childhood, shame there are fewer and fewer places you can do that. Still, a lot of my little cousins in rural areas in Ireland are the same, it hasn't totally gone.
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Same as this. When we were no age we were put out in the morning and didn't come back unless we were hungry. Walked all over the place getting up to childish adventures. Even things like the school bus didn't come to where we lived and the closest stop was a mile away. We'd have walked that every day from the first day of primary school and rarely had adult supervision.

Times were different then though man. I think there was at least as many weirdos but parents weren't aware of them. Then like now the biggest risk to kids is in the family home.
 
Is it really the case that there are more paedophile types around nowadays...or just more media coverage of them?
 
SteveJ said:
Is it really the case that there are more paedophile types around nowadays...or just more media coverage of them?
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Probably more reporting of them. There is more of an effort put into listening to the cases by the authorities. There is a better set up in terms of giving kids information that they should tell an trusted adult about these things. Plus of course the media has a much easier time spreading the story then it once did.
 
SteveJ said:
Is it really the case that there are more paedophile types around nowadays...or just more media coverage of them?
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Probably both. More people means more of nearly everything.

The Mccanns seem unusual in that most parents would, I imagine, want to grieve in private and be too upset to speak in public as much as they have. They are certainly brave.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Same as this. When we were no age we were put out in the morning and didn't come back unless we were hungry. Walked all over the place getting up to childish adventures. Even things like the school bus didn't come to where we lived and the closest stop was a mile away. We'd have walked that every day from the first day of primary school and rarely had adult supervision.

Times were different then though man. I think there was at least as many weirdos but parents weren't aware of them. Then like now the biggest risk to kids is in the family home.
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Yeah, my parents were the type to think strangers were the only threat. Anyone they knew was totally safe, especially if they were a local. We stayed in London for a while and my mom refused to ask strangers for directions while we were with her in case they turned out to be crazy and attacked us or something. Pretty weird.

I think lack of space is a big problem too. Most of the fields we'd play in when we were kids have been built on in the last 10 years, the local kids around now wouldn't be able to wander about like I did.
 
I put very strict boundaries on my eldest when she started to go outside on her own, and that's something I never had 25 odd years ago. Then again, we live in an estate now in a village and it's easy to say don't go outside that.
 
Spanish Hectic said:
They were gone for an hour and a half, and they went out to a restaurant, not to get pissed.
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That doesn't make it any better to be honest.

My daughter is 2 and the thought of leaving her alone for an hour and a half is sickening. Maddie was 3 years old, a child of that age can't be expected to be left alone for an hour and half, it's unthinkable!

It's neglect, plain and simple.
 
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