Madeleine McCann

[Silva]

I wish this whole thing would go away already, the kid didn't even go missing in the UK so the extensive coverage isn't justified in the slightest.

 

[Wibble]

I repeat, it takes a special kind of cnut to leave babies alone, in a strange building, in a foreign country, night after night. It takes an even more special kind of cnut to defend those actions.

Am doing it right? We just keep calling each other cnuts, yeah?

If I'm a cnut for having empathy I can live with that.

People keep suggesting that the presence of foreigners is somehow important? Are foreigners more likely to be paedos? Odd assumption.

 

[The Don]

I've never said it's ok to leave children alone but carry on calling people fools and cnuts, its always a winner.

You want to read a few posts back, fella to find out when calling people cnuts started. You quoted the post, indeed.
I haven't mentioned your name once when saying people defended their horrible parenting, btw.

However, if you read back through the thread you'll find numerous instances of people defending what they did by claiming it isn't as bad as people say, when clearly it borders on neglect.

 

[Wibble]

Again: none of us bloody knows what went on.

However I do know that, in the discussion of many criminal cases, if people were reduced to emotional appeals; denigrated generally accepted things like the merits of cadaver dogs and the value of DNA evidence, they'd be called a bunch of fruitloop conspiracy theorists (ie nutters).

So we don't know what happened so we torment the poor parents until we do? That doesn't sound like you Steve.

Cadaver dogs are not accepted as evidence for the reasons I state and there is no DNA evidence.

 

[The Don]

If I'm a cnut for having empathy I can live with that.

People keep suggesting that the presence of foreigners is somehow important? Are foreigners more likely to be paedos? Odd assumption.

Unfamiliar surroundings can be more dangerous than home, yes. At home, you have a good idea of the people around you, or at least some of them.

Empathy is all well and good but it is as pointless as blaming the parents for their bad parenting, so each to their own.

 

[Wibble]

You want to read a few posts back, fella to find out when calling people cnuts started. You quoted the post, indeed.
I haven't mentioned your name once when saying people defended their horrible parenting, btw.

However, if you read back through the thread you'll find numerous instances of people defending what they did by claiming it isn't as bad as people say, when clearly it borders on neglect.

I see instances of far worse parenting every single day. Just because they did something that you think you wouldn't do doesn't make them deserve this witch hunt. And as if they need anyone else to tell them that acting otherwise would have had a different outcome.

 

[Wibble]

Unfamiliar surroundings can be more dangerous than home, yes. At home, you have a good idea of the people around you, or at least some of them.

Bollocks. Simple knee jerk tabloid style racism.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Sorry dude, I don't know how leaving a 3 year old along with two babies alone while you leave them for long periods every night in a foreign country can be called minding their kids properly.

In that line I didn't use the word negligent, abuse or anything like that. I just said they didn't look after them right and even they have admitted that. Their staunchest supporters admit that. In fact you're the first person I've ever heard saying that leaving them was even debatable correct.

Admissions of that nature can be heavily influenced by public opinion as well as their own feelings of guilt. They are obviously going to beat themselves up over this and I don't think it's fair for anyone to lay blame at their door, only the McCanns have to live with what happened.

Leaving their youngins alone for a few hours seems to have been a regular thing for them and up until Madeline went missing it does not appear to have been a problem. I'm not picking on you in particular it's just that the statement I highlighted earlier succinctly described the source of the general public's vitriol towards them. Parenting is a personal thing, consider Alistair's thread yesterday in the general, most people would take extreme offense at being told how to properly look after their kids. If you ask me, the public's persistence in admonishing them belies a suspicion that they are in fact guilty of her murder and subsequent cover up.

 

[The Don]

I see instances of far worse parenting every single day. Just because they did something that you think you wouldn't do doesn't make them deserve this witch hunt. And as if they need anyone else to tell them that acting otherwise would have had a different outcome.

See, here we go again. Just admit it was bad parenting and stop trying to justify it.

 

[The Don]

Bollocks. Simple knee jerk tabloid style racism.

Explain.

 

[Wibble]

I have no need to even think about it. I probably wouldn't have done it when my son was young but that is utterly beside the point. The only criticism should be directed at the person(s) who kidnapped the kid and the Portuguese for their keystone cop impression.

You don't blame rape victims for wearing a short skirt and getting pissed. Unless you are a special kind of cnut.

 

[Eyepopper]

However, if you read back through the thread you'll find numerous instances of people defending what they did by claiming it isn't as bad as people say, when clearly it borders on neglect.

You're claiming it's as bad as leaving a child on a motorway.

It isn't.

 

[Wibble]

Explain.

I thought it would have been obvious.

The constant mention of foreigners as a factor that should have been considered when leaving the kids in the room more than implies that non-Brits (which includes you BTW) are more often child kidnapping paedos. Which is of course bollocks.

 

[Wibble]

You're claiming it's as bad as leaving a child on a motorway.

It isn't.

And just as irrelevant

 

[Eyepopper]

At home, you have a good idea of the people around you, or at least some of them.

And most kids are abused by someone they know so that surely makes the point null and void?

For instance, statistically your kid is far more likely to be abused by the family member you leave them with (or someone connected to them) than they are to be abducted from an apartment in Portugal. In each case you're taking a chance.

 

[The Don]

You're claiming it's as bad as leaving a child on a motorway.

It isn't.

Again, no I didn't. I'm seriously beginning to question your basic comprehension, here.

 

[The Don]

I have no need to even think about it. I probably wouldn't have done it when my son was young but that is utterly beside the point. The only criticism should be directed at the person(s) who kidnapped the kid and the Portuguese for their keystone cop impression.

You don't blame rape victims for wearing a short skirt and getting pissed. Unless you are a special kind of cnut.

Oh yes, blame the Portuguese cops. It's their fault, now.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Admissions of that nature can be heavily influenced by public opinion as well as their own feelings of guilt. They are obviously going to beat themselves up over this and I don't think it's fair for anyone to lay blame at their door, only the McCanns have to live with what happened.

Leaving their youngins alone for a few hours seems to have been a regular thing for them and up until Madeline went missing it does not appear to have been a problem. I'm not picking on you in particular it's just that the statement I highlighted earlier succinctly described the source of the general public's vitriol towards them. Parenting is a personal thing, consider Alistair's thread yesterday in the general, most people would take extreme offense at being told how to properly look after their kids. If you ask me, the public's persistence in admonishing them belies a suspicion that they are in fact guilty of her murder and subsequent cover up.

Again, just because they are guilty of bad parenting doesn't mean that they are guilty of murdering/abducting their child.

Just because they did it before and nothing happened doesn't make it any better. That's like a drink driver saying they drove drunk every night that week without an accident so it's not a problem for them to keep doing it.

Parenting is a personal thing, and stuff like how you discipline/sooth/educate/spoil your kids is up to you within limits. Leaving them every night is well outside their limits.

**This doesn't mean they deserved what happened them. (I'm putting this here so I can't have my words twisted)

 

[Irwinwastheking]

I have no need to even think about it. I probably wouldn't have done it when my son was young but that is utterly beside the point. The only criticism should be directed at the person(s) who kidnapped the kid and the Portuguese for their keystone cop impression.

You don't blame rape victims for wearing a short skirt and getting pissed. Unless you are a special kind of cnut.

So if they left them alone for a few days in the room with enough food to keep them going, would they then have to share some small amount of responsibility?

**This doesn't mean they deserved what happened them. (I'm putting this here so I can't have my words twisted)

 

[Eyepopper]

Again, no I didn't. I'm seriously beginning to question your basic comprehension, here.

Question all you want.

The suggestion was made that they could have lost their kid in a car crash to which you responded

what they did was more akin to leaving their daughter wandering about on a busy motorway. It makes it inevitable that she would come to harm.

well no it isn't. It might be more akin to a drunk driver crashing into you while you were speeding, or not paying correct attention, or tired. You're doing something you probably shouldn't, but something people do, to varying degrees all the time, and you were incredibly unlucky, it was someone else's decision ultimately led to the situation, you didn't create it, you are a victim of circumstance primarily.

Beyond all that I still don't understand the desire to lambast parents who've lost a kid, what does anyone get out of that?

 

[Eyepopper]

So if they left them alone for a few days in the room with enough food to keep them going, would they then have to share some small amount of responsibility?

Now we're equating leaving kids sleeping in a room a 120 yards away and checking on them every half hour or so, to leaving kids alone for days on end?

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Now we're equating leaving kids sleeping in a room a 120 yards away and checking on them every half hour or so, to leaving kids alone for days on end?

Where did I equate it?

I asked in a slightly different scenario where kids are left alone would they parents then have to share some small piece of responsibility. If the answer to that question was yes then I was going to try to establish where was the cut off point. Was it a few days, one night all night, 2 hours, 1 hour...

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Question all you want.

The suggestion was made that they could have lost their kid in a car crash to which you responded



well no it isn't. It might be more akin to a drunk driver crashing into you while you were speeding, or not paying correct attention, or tired. You're doing something you probably shouldn't, but something people do, to varying degrees all the time, and you were incredibly unlucky, it was someone else's decision ultimately led to the situation, you didn't create it, you are a victim of circumstance primarily.

Beyond all that I still don't understand the desire to lambast parents who've lost a kid, what does anyone get out of that?

Maybe this is the pertinent point. I'd compare it more to them being the drunk driver than them being hit by a drunk driver. They made a very lousy inconsiderate decision to leave them just like having a few beers and driving a car with kids in it is a lousy decision.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Again, just because they are guilty of bad parenting doesn't mean that they are guilty of murdering/abducting their child.

Just because they did it before and nothing happened doesn't make it any better. That's like a drink driver saying they drove drunk every night that week without an accident so it's not a problem for them to keep doing it.

Parenting is a personal thing, and stuff like how you discipline/sooth/educate/spoil your kids is up to you within limits. Leaving them every night is well outside their limits.

**This doesn't mean they deserved what happened them. (I'm putting this here so I can't have my words twisted)

Ok, so if they didn't deserve it, what's the point of highlighting that they are guilty of bad parenting?

 

[Wibble]

Oh yes, blame the Portuguese cops. It's their fault, now.

They were incompetent. Out and out incompetent. Crime scene not secured resulting in at least 20 people entering the room before it was sealed, the room then being left unsupervised for 5 hours as the cop on duty left without being relieved, no roadblock being set up until 10am the next day, border police and customs not given descriptions of Maddie, no or negligible door to door inquiries, no requests for surveillance footage of roads leading away from the resort, a cop in charge with a very dodgy record when it came to child kidnapping, leaking bullshit evidence and didn't they even drive the rental car car around?

You wouldn't let them park your car much less conduct a criminal investigation.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Ok, so if they didn't deserve it, what's the point of highlighting that they are guilty of bad parenting?

I think it's perfectly relevant and in this thread discussing the case to point out that they were guilty of bad parenting. The whole thing would have been dropped days ago if several people didn't feel the need to try to twist what's being said into something it's not. This post from Pops is a perfect example to how him and Wibble are trying to discuss this.

[quote="The Don, post: 14409075]
It may be very simplistic, but if they were being responsible parents it's a fair call to say they'd still have their daughter.

So what are you saying then? They got what they had coming?[/quote]

In what way TheDon was suggesting they had it coming is beyond me, and these past few pages are full of statements like this. It's been repeatedly said that those who think they are guilty of negligence feel no sympathy towards them and I know in the largest number of cases that's total bullshit.

 

[JustAFan]

If I'm a cnut for having empathy I can live with that.

People keep suggesting that the presence of foreigners is somehow important? Are foreigners more likely to be paedos? Odd assumption.

Well to the right kind of cnut, all foreigners are evil. Of course what one has to realize is that in this case, given it happened in Portugal, the McCann's were the foreigners.

 

[The Don]

Question all you want.

The suggestion was made that they could have lost their kid in a car crash to which you responded



well no it isn't. It might be more akin to a drunk driver crashing into you while you were speeding, or not paying correct attention, or tired. You're doing something you probably shouldn't, but something people do, to varying degrees all the time, and you were incredibly unlucky, it was someone else's decision ultimately led to the situation, you didn't create it, you are a victim of circumstance primarily.

Beyond all that I still don't understand the desire to lambast parents who've lost a kid, what does anyone get out of that?

I'm actually surprised at the absolute nonsense yourself and Wibs are coming out with here. I think I'll follow your lead and just stay out of it.

So sick of the deliberate misquoting and lack of acceptance of other people's opinions. The name calling and belittlement of other posters is ridiculous coming from admin and normally very respected posters.

The two of you in particular have turned this debate into a farce with your attitude towards it and posters who dare to question the case.


It's disappointing because I genuinely respect both of you as posters and didn't expect a reaction like this from you.
If you want to know what I'm babbling on about, read back how many times yous have belittled someone's opinion, laughed at them, or basically just called them names.

I'd like to request a thread ban, so I'm not tempted to enter the fray again, please.

No hard feelings like, but we'll just never agree on this and it's pointless.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

They were incompetent. Out and out incompetent. Crime scene not secured resulting in at least 20 people entering the room before it was sealed, the room then being left unsupervised for 5 hours as the cop on duty left without being relieved, no roadblock being set up until 10am the next day, border police and customs not given descriptions of Maddie, no or negligible door to door inquiries, no requests for surveillance footage of roads leading away from the resort, a cop in charge with a very dodgy record when it came to child kidnapping, leaking bullshit evidence and didn't they even drive the rental car car around?

You wouldn't let them park your car much less conduct a criminal investigation.

It's more the McCanns fault that the child went missing in the first place than the cops though. The cops are to blame for a lot of things, but all of them are things that happened after she was abducted. The McCanns are the ones who left a glaring window of opportunity for whoever the most guilty party is to do what they did.

 

[Wibble]

So if they left them alone for a few days in the room with enough food to keep them going, would they then have to share some small amount of responsibility?

**This doesn't mean they deserved what happened them. (I'm putting this here so I can't have my words twisted)

What has that got to do with anything?

And in this case this would be abuse but still nothing to do with what a kidnapper did.

 

[Wibble]

It's more the McCanns fault that the child went missing in the first place than the cops though. The cops are to blame for a lot of things, but all of them are things that happened after she was abducted. The McCanns are the ones who left a glaring window of opportunity for whoever the most guilty party is to do what they did.

Who is blaming the cops for her going missing? The only person to blame for her going missing is the person or persons who kidnapped her. They can however be blamed for not doing their job even vaguely competently. However, I have huge sympathy for parents who had their kid taken from them and very little for incompetent cops.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I think it's perfectly relevant and in this thread discussing the case to point out that they were guilty of bad parenting. The whole thing would have been dropped days ago if several people didn't feel the need to try to twist what's being said into something it's not. This post from Pops is a perfect example to how him and Wibble are trying to discuss this.





So what are you saying then? They got what they had coming?

In what way TheDon was suggesting they had it coming is beyond me, and these past few pages are full of statements like this. It's been repeatedly said that those who think they are guilty of negligence feel no sympathy towards them and I know in the largest number of cases that's total bullshit. [/quote]

Currently, I think it's largely irrelevant. Do people blame Denise Bulger for losing her boy or can they relate to being momentarily distracted while shopping with a child in tow and accept that it only takes a moment of innattention for someone to abduct a child? Put it this way, if whomever it was that abducted and possibly killed Madeline were to be found I think people would drop the bad parenting line pretty quickly. We don't have a clue how the McCanns raised their kids only that they were in a place they felt was safe enough and were comfortable leaving them to sleep while they went out for a few hours, all while keeping an eye on their place and conducting regular checks on their kids.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Who is blaming the cops for her going missing? The only person to blame for her going missing is the person or persons who kidnapped her. They can however be blamed for not doing their job even vaguely competently. However, I have huge sympathy for parents who had their kid taken from them and very little for incompetent cops.

No, the vast vast majority of the blame lies with that person or persons. However as a parent it's your primary job to ensure that shit like this doesn't happen so being so wilfully negligent of the safety of three small kids means that they are partially to blame for allowing it to happen.

What has that got to do with anything?

And in this case this would be abuse but still nothing to do with what a kidnapper did.

As I said in this post....

Where did I equate it?

I asked in a slightly different scenario where kids are left alone would they parents then have to share some small piece of responsibility. If the answer to that question was yes then I was going to try to establish where was the cut off point. Was it a few days, one night all night, 2 hours, 1 hour...

If under the circumstances I hypothesised that you wouldn't apportion any blame to a parent who left kids for days on end there really is no point in talking to you about this because you are totally off your rocker.

 

[SteveJ]

So we don't know what happened so we torment the poor parents until we do? That doesn't sound like you Steve.

Cadaver dogs are not accepted as evidence for the reasons I state and there is no DNA evidence.

I mentioned previously that I've no reason to dislike the McCanns, Wibs. Fundamentally, I'm concerned by the way this case has been presented to the public - that's what makes me suspicious that the whole truth hasn't yet been told. I hope my suspicions are totally wrong, though, and I certainly won't be too proud to shy away from apologising if that turns out to be the case.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Currently, I think it's largely irrelevant. Do people blame Denise Bulger for losing her boy or can they relate to being momentarily distracted while shopping with a child in tow and accept that it only takes a moment of innattention for someone to abduct a child? Put it this way, if whomever it was that abducted and possibly killed Madeline were to be found I think people would drop the bad parenting line pretty quickly. We don't have a clue how the McCanns raised their kids only that they were in a place they felt was safe enough and were comfortable leaving them to sleep while they went out for a few hours, all while keeping an eye on their place and conducting regular checks on their kids.

Ah Doc, turning around for a moment while out shopping isn't even in the same ball park as leaving kids for hours while you go out eating and drinking. Don't insult our intelligence.

Edit: Edited to fix broken quote tags.

 

[Eyepopper]

Where did I equate it?

I asked in a slightly different scenario where kids are left alone would they parents then have to share some small piece of responsibility. If the answer to that question was yes then I was going to try to establish where was the cut off point. Was it a few days, one night all night, 2 hours, 1 hour...

Its not a slightly different scenario, its completely different, just as leaving a child on a motorway is a completely different scenario, both far more extreme that what actually happened.

I'd compare it more to them being the drunk driver than them being hit by a drunk driver.

So you consider them primarily responsible then, same as a drunk driver would be?

See I can't agree with that, the kid isn't missing because they left her alone, the kid is missing because someone chose to take her.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Ah Doc, turning around for a moment while out shopping isn't even in the same ball park as leaving kids for hours while you go out eating and drinking. Don't insult our intelligence.

Edit: Edited to fix broken quote tags.

I'm not, I made the exact same point you just did, "people can relate to being momentarily distracted while shopping with a child in tow..."

What it comes down to for me is that the McCanns had a different style of parenting that some people don't agree with so they seem to be fine imparting some responsibility for her disappearance onto them. I think that's unfair.

 

[Eyepopper]

In what way TheDon was suggesting they had it coming is beyond me, and these past few pages are full of statements like this. It's been repeatedly said that those who think they are guilty of negligence feel no sympathy towards them and I know in the largest number of cases that's total bullshit.

Its also been said they should be publicly lambasted, if you want to see parents who have lost a child lambasted I think it's fair to suggest you might lack a bit of sympathy.

 

[ciderman9000000]

I thought it would have been obvious.

The constant mention of foreigners as a factor that should have been considered when leaving the kids in the room more than implies that non-Brits (which includes you BTW) are more often child kidnapping paedos. Which is of course bollocks.

Or perhaps that tourists are more likely to become the victims of crime than locals?

It's not racist, it's just common sense that you have to be more wary of things in unfamiliar surroundings. Tourists are frequently seen as easy targets. The same would go for a Portuguese family visiting the UK.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Its not a slightly different scenario, its completely different, just as leaving a child on a motorway is a completely different scenario, both far more extreme that what actually happened.




So you consider them primarily responsible then, same as a drunk driver would be?

See I can't agree with that, the kid isn't missing because they left her alone, the kid is missing because someone chose to take her.

It turns out my question was relevant as Wibble confirmed that even if they left the kids for a few days they still wouldn't shoulder any of the burden.

As for the drink driving analogy, think of it more that they were a little tipsy and hit a car that was on the wrong side of the road. If they hadn't been tipsy they would have avoided the accident but the main fault was the other lunatic.

That's pretty much exactly what this is like.

I'm not, I made the exact same point you just did, "people can relate to being momentarily distracted while shopping with a child in tow..."

What it comes down to for me is that the McCanns had a different style of parenting that some people don't agree with so they seem to be fine imparting some responsibility for her disappearance onto them. I think that's unfair.

A negligent terrible style of parenting.