well said OP
LvG's bold approach to rebuilding
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
- Start date
well said OP
Well done OP, sense at last. Some of the drivel being posted around here the past few days has been some of the worst that I have ever seen.
If I may use myself as the guinea pig for my point here. I buy into van Gaal's vision in philosophy. I have done since I watched him lead Ajax to a Champions League win with a team of kids when I were a teenager. Paid attention to how the roles function in his teams and the philosophy of how a team defines "success". I even observed how he plucked out established stars of the Ajax team and sold them on (Bryan Roy, Van't Schip, etc) despite the fans protest, putting his faith in a bunch of kids consisting of Davids, Seedorf, Kluivert, etc. The point is, he's been here before, to an extent. The same procedure, although perhaps without the weight and immediacy of the Premier League.
Because of my willingness to observe, believe and follow his method and beliefs, I worry less during times like these when everything seems up in air. Behind every emotionally turbulent period must be logical thought, methods, approaches and mentality. When the emotion of it all wanes, as it always does, the facts remain the same. LvG is presently looking as much into the personal character and intelligence of players as well as the technical ability of players. There are elements, mentally, in all players he picks for his teams. The right kind of personalities and characters are more likely to grasp and give themselves into his system, which in turn makes the system more fluid and precise.
That's the point of the three months. Habit building, intellectual understanding of the system, complete understanding of each individual's role within that system. Defined roles. Clarity makes for certainty, which leads to tactical competence...... as opposed to recent times when everything was guess work, each individual acting on his own intuition.
Because of my willingness to observe, believe and follow his method and beliefs, I worry less during times like these when everything seems up in air. Behind every emotionally turbulent period must be logical thought, methods, approaches and mentality. When the emotion of it all wanes, as it always does, the facts remain the same. LvG is presently looking as much into the personal character and intelligence of players as well as the technical ability of players. There are elements, mentally, in all players he picks for his teams. The right kind of personalities and characters are more likely to grasp and give themselves into his system, which in turn makes the system more fluid and precise.
That's the point of the three months. Habit building, intellectual understanding of the system, complete understanding of each individual's role within that system. Defined roles. Clarity makes for certainty, which leads to tactical competence...... as opposed to recent times when everything was guess work, each individual acting on his own intuition.
That is a briliant OP.
Now imagine if Giggs had stayed in charge. How many departures? How much of the deadwood would have left.
Still unhappy about Welbeck / Kagawa leaving while a few who doesnt deserve a united shirt are still around ..
But the decisiveness and the boldness with which LVG is doing things the way he thinks is right is welcome and is exactly what we needed..
Eagerness to see his "brand" of football with a full strength squad is now through the roof..
But the decisiveness and the boldness with which LVG is doing things the way he thinks is right is welcome and is exactly what we needed..
Eagerness to see his "brand" of football with a full strength squad is now through the roof..
I do find it funny that the transfer policy and starting line up for United looks like a gelacticos united style, with van Gaal trying to implement a Barça style of football
Great post, and a good analysis of our current situation.
I think a lot of people, us including, hasn't really realized how brilliant Fergie really was. He managed to win time and time again, with a team who compared to the likes of City and Chelsea, were (vastly) inferior in individual quality.
When Moyes took over, we were really found out. Sure, he didn't exactly do a great job, but imo, our lousy season last year was more a reflection of the (lack of) quality in our squad, then it was of the managerial ability of Moyes.
Say what you like about our spending spree, but if we wanted to compete at the highest level, a real overhaul was needed.
Still, i hope we throw away our identity completely. A first XI including the likes of Falcao, Di Maria, DDG, Rooney will hopefully carry us far, but i still hope we continue to promote and give chances to the likes of Januzaj, Blackett and Wilson.
I think a lot of people, us including, hasn't really realized how brilliant Fergie really was. He managed to win time and time again, with a team who compared to the likes of City and Chelsea, were (vastly) inferior in individual quality.
When Moyes took over, we were really found out. Sure, he didn't exactly do a great job, but imo, our lousy season last year was more a reflection of the (lack of) quality in our squad, then it was of the managerial ability of Moyes.
Say what you like about our spending spree, but if we wanted to compete at the highest level, a real overhaul was needed.
Still, i hope we throw away our identity completely. A first XI including the likes of Falcao, Di Maria, DDG, Rooney will hopefully carry us far, but i still hope we continue to promote and give chances to the likes of Januzaj, Blackett and Wilson.
Sums it up nicely. Whether you call it restructure or whatever, it's something we need to set ourselves up for the future. The set up at the club has been completely Fergie oriented. We need another Fergie, or something else. Obviously only one of the two is likely.
I don't think it is all that bold an approach at all. He has already showed that he can't drop the big names even if they aren't performing, and wants to supplement that with another big name, who is an injury doubt.
We haven't really fixed anything apart from selling our most saleable assets, not really strengthening defensive midfield, where we have been crying out for class for some time now.
It is hasty to praise his approach, when it might totally backfire.
We haven't really fixed anything apart from selling our most saleable assets, not really strengthening defensive midfield, where we have been crying out for class for some time now.
It is hasty to praise his approach, when it might totally backfire.
I've not posted for 2 weeks, I have been in the middle of nowhere in France without access to the internet or any means to follow the last 2 weeks of the transfer window, only getting back late yesterday.
The OP sums up my feelings in being confronted with what is a huge change at the club which to me came pretty much all at once.
Yes, I liked Welbeck as a player and really wanted a local lad who has been with the club for a long time to succeed. Similarly, but to a lesser extent the likes of Hernandez, Kagawa et al.
This kind of drastic action is clearly what was and still is needed though, not only after last season, but when comparing our squad of a couple of weeks ago with the likes of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, and I hate to say it, even Liverpool.
Had we retained the players we 'lost' yesterday, and not signed the likes of Di Maria, Falcao, Blind or Rojo, we would have been lucky to finish in a Europa place IMO, we simply weren't good enough in too many areas of the pitch when compared to our rivals.
Now? We have added World class players, experienced players, winners, and players for the future in the positions we were weak in, whilst offloading players that to be frank, whilst fan favorites and very much 'United' players simply weren't comparable to the players the rest of the league are bringing in.
It sounds like a very FM kind of view, and I guess in some ways it is, but it's realistic. We can't expect to do well consistently like we did in the Fergie years unless we act like a so called 'Big Club', and big clubs sign big players.
Also, we've signed Di Maria and fecking Falcao!
The OP sums up my feelings in being confronted with what is a huge change at the club which to me came pretty much all at once.
Yes, I liked Welbeck as a player and really wanted a local lad who has been with the club for a long time to succeed. Similarly, but to a lesser extent the likes of Hernandez, Kagawa et al.
This kind of drastic action is clearly what was and still is needed though, not only after last season, but when comparing our squad of a couple of weeks ago with the likes of Chelsea, City, Arsenal, and I hate to say it, even Liverpool.
Had we retained the players we 'lost' yesterday, and not signed the likes of Di Maria, Falcao, Blind or Rojo, we would have been lucky to finish in a Europa place IMO, we simply weren't good enough in too many areas of the pitch when compared to our rivals.
Now? We have added World class players, experienced players, winners, and players for the future in the positions we were weak in, whilst offloading players that to be frank, whilst fan favorites and very much 'United' players simply weren't comparable to the players the rest of the league are bringing in.
It sounds like a very FM kind of view, and I guess in some ways it is, but it's realistic. We can't expect to do well consistently like we did in the Fergie years unless we act like a so called 'Big Club', and big clubs sign big players.
Also, we've signed Di Maria and fecking Falcao!
Agreed. It's crazy how some here are knocking our spending and ruthlessness. It's necessary to get us back to the top asap! I'm sure once done we will revert to the youth policy (that actually coincides with LVG's philosophy).
Agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Being from Manchester shouldn't be enough to secure you a place in the starting lineup. Football is very short term right now and van Gaal is restoring the ruthlessness we once had by raising the bar and introducing certain standards of the level a Manchester United player should be at. By next year we will have a squad free of all the average players that have littered our starting lineup and we would have those players replaced with top quality signings like Falcao and Di Maria. This is the kind of shelf Manchester United should be looking at and not Ashley Young and Cleverley and this is the kind of attitude that will take us back to the top not only of English football but competing for European titles.
Not many survived the MK Dons debacle anyway.
It seems like you think of the defensive midfield role in a destroyer capacity. Only the other day, LvG remarked that Blind "understands my philosophy", and "He reads the game well".
Intelligence is the key word for van Gaal's system. Defensive approach can be summed up by forcing the opponent to be reactive to you, not you being reactive to them. In that respect, Blind is ideal in his system. The job of a DM in van Gaal's system is based around reading the game, picking the ball deep, allowing defenders comfort to push up and be a very good distributor of the ball. So, yes, he has strengthened the defensive midfield.
It's exactly what we need currently. Once we're back on track and can compete for trophies, he will start pushing up talented young players. But now and foremost, we need immidate results and you only get these with brilliant players. As someone said, under SAF and Giggs, a lot of the deadwood would have stayed. While that might have worked under Fergie, it just doesnt anymore. All in all, I'm good, just hope that we dont play the 3-5-2 anymore
I am not thinking of it in a destroyer capacity at all. Danny Blind is unproven, and could flop more than Cleverley, going by your logic of really strengthening when it comes to replacing Welbeck with Falcao.
I have to recover from the Welbeck sale before I can assess things properly, but it won't be the same
I'd say Blind is unproven in the Premier League, but he was excellent last year in the Eriedevisie, and was fairly good at the World Cup, putting in some good performances and impressing with his tackling and passing range.
He's definitely a step up over Cleverley, who has been given lots of chances and has never really hit the sort of form we briefly saw a couple of years ago when he was breaking into the team.
He can also play DM, which is a position we were crying out to fill, whereas Tom plays CM to a far lesser competency than players we already have.
Wonderful job with the OP. I agree with it, but would also contend that the whole club deserves credit, not just Van Gaal. I've felt for far too many seasons now that we've been carrying too many players that were not of the required standard, not plugging the holes in the side, and also signing too many players who just weren't up to the required standard. There's still more work to be done, and the tactics and performances on the pitch now have to live up to the quality invested in the squad.
United has to face up to the fact that it seems Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool have all got their houses in order - it was, and is, imperative that we have to as well if that's the level of competition we want to topple. Everton have a tidy team. Tottenham seem a bit of a mess, but still not a terrible side and capable of taking points off the top teams on their day. With the distribution of the PL television income, the mid-table clubs are strengthening as well, making it even more difficult. If United slips too far, it faces a real challenge to get back to the top. Hopefully we've taken the right steps, it certainly seems like we've made some positive ones.
United has to face up to the fact that it seems Chelsea, City, Arsenal and Liverpool have all got their houses in order - it was, and is, imperative that we have to as well if that's the level of competition we want to topple. Everton have a tidy team. Tottenham seem a bit of a mess, but still not a terrible side and capable of taking points off the top teams on their day. With the distribution of the PL television income, the mid-table clubs are strengthening as well, making it even more difficult. If United slips too far, it faces a real challenge to get back to the top. Hopefully we've taken the right steps, it certainly seems like we've made some positive ones.
My logic of strengthening is defined by the addition of a person/character whom mentally, intellectually and physically meets the required function of the role he's employed in. Blind was Eredivisie player of the year in the Netherlands. Now, you might argue that the Dutch league isn't the Premier League, and you'd be right, however, Blind's ability and positional quality for Ajax in that exact role is exactly what is expected at United; in that respect, there's nothing to prove, technically.
Danny Blind would be a poor signing. As has been said, Daley Blind performed well in a Dutch team that made the WC Semifinal and was Eredivisie PotY last year. Tom couldn't get into an England squad that didn't make it out of the group stage and occasionally played (badly) for United (and now for Villa). Even allowing for them playing different positions - Cleverley is by no stretch of the imagination a DM - Blind is several classes better than Cleverley (and Fletcher).
[Edit: I can see how the Welbeck sale would upset you. How dare they replace "our Danny" with a world class striker.]
We havent removed the players who were largely responsible for our fall to mediocrity, the likes of Young and Valencia are still here and likely to play prominent roles
Nothing to add to the OP. Spot on and a welcome breath of reality.
I do not think there was anything bold about the strategy. It was similar to the type of windows PSG, Monaco had recently and the type of windows Cheslea and City used to have. Spending a lot of money, bring in some big names, without any regard to how they will fit in a team.
Nothing innovative about spending huge amounts of cash.
Once we're done with this 3 at the back nonsense (apart from the odd big game where it makes sense as a counter-attacking plan), we'll still need a few players once we're back in the CL. We have great options at striker, good young starting CM's (Di Maria and Herrera) and at fullback in Rafael and Shaw. We need a holding midfielder, maybe a wide attacker with pace to stretch defenses, though I think that will be Januzaj on one side and a narrow attacker on the other be it Rooney, Falcao or Mata. Or we buy Strootman to play CM and move Di Maria out wide. And we might need a CB depending on how the current options play. A few more deadwood out, too.
Once we're done with this 3 at the back nonsense (apart from the odd big game where it makes sense as a counter-attacking plan), we'll still need a few players once we're back in the CL. We have great options at striker, good young starting CM's (Di Maria and Herrera) and at fullback in Rafael and Shaw. We need a holding midfielder, maybe a wide attacker with pace to stretch defenses, though I think that will be Januzaj on one side and a narrow attacker on the other be it Rooney, Falcao or Mata. Or we buy Strootman to play CM and move Di Maria out wide. And we might need a CB depending on how the current options play. A few more deadwood out, too.
I believe a lot of people have missed a very important point, this squad's major issue was lack of quality, that is plenty of players not having technical ability which costed us against top teams even in the Fergie era, and we never dominated a top side, even when we were winning trophies, after Fergie went and the Moyes debacle the confidence of these players, who although technically inferior were always motivated, and gave 110 % were totally shot.
There were soo many players last season it felt they were devoid of confidence and didn't give a shit about the club. It was essential for us to move on players and make sure we have new players who don't suffer from confidence issues and players who are technically sound and take the responsibility, players like Falcao, Herrera, Rojo, Blind, Di Maria, Shaw all have one thing in common they have had brilliant seasons for their clubs, except Falcao who was pretty much injured last season, Herrera after a slow start was an integral part of a Bilbao side that reached the Champions league, Rojo after a good season went to the Worldcup and was very solid for Argentina, Blind was player of the Year in Dutch league, Di Maria was the best big game player for Madrid last season, while Shaw had a terrific season for Southampton and was Selected for the Worldcup Squad at the age of 19.
People still don't realize we have Shiped out 12 players who were part of the first team except Bebe (Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic, Giggs, Cleverley, Welbeck, Hernandez, Kagawa, Powell, Bebe, Zaha, Nani), Its a overhaul of massive proportions and exactly what was needed, and hopefully in the next match we will start with mostly new players with the likes of Herrera, Blind, Di Maria, Blind, Shaw and Falcao all starting who don't suffer from the same confidence and lack of technical ability and will adopt to the system without any issue, unlike our old players who when the things are going against them resort to pass it to Valencia on the right and see what happens.
There were soo many players last season it felt they were devoid of confidence and didn't give a shit about the club. It was essential for us to move on players and make sure we have new players who don't suffer from confidence issues and players who are technically sound and take the responsibility, players like Falcao, Herrera, Rojo, Blind, Di Maria, Shaw all have one thing in common they have had brilliant seasons for their clubs, except Falcao who was pretty much injured last season, Herrera after a slow start was an integral part of a Bilbao side that reached the Champions league, Rojo after a good season went to the Worldcup and was very solid for Argentina, Blind was player of the Year in Dutch league, Di Maria was the best big game player for Madrid last season, while Shaw had a terrific season for Southampton and was Selected for the Worldcup Squad at the age of 19.
People still don't realize we have Shiped out 12 players who were part of the first team except Bebe (Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic, Giggs, Cleverley, Welbeck, Hernandez, Kagawa, Powell, Bebe, Zaha, Nani), Its a overhaul of massive proportions and exactly what was needed, and hopefully in the next match we will start with mostly new players with the likes of Herrera, Blind, Di Maria, Blind, Shaw and Falcao all starting who don't suffer from the same confidence and lack of technical ability and will adopt to the system without any issue, unlike our old players who when the things are going against them resort to pass it to Valencia on the right and see what happens.
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Whilst I'm sad Welbeck's gone, shipping out him, Hernandez and Kagawa makes complete sense given given that LVG has commented on how we're overstocked with strikers and number 10s. Especially since we're only challenging on two fronts it makes sense to trade quantity up front for pure quality.
I'm yet to be sold even though it's early. Hollands football at the wc was completely overrated, we have created 2 chances in 4 games, we didn't need another striker, we needed at least another midfielder and our most talented home grown player in ages now plays for a rival.
Also the team looms lost with playing 3 at the back and even our most proven and talented players look just as out of sorts as last year.
Finally, there are so many injuries it makes me cringe just thinking about it.
LVG has his work cut out to say the least. He probably will turn things around but this is a bad start.
This sounds very negative but I'm still stunned by welbeck. I will probably talk more sense in a week or two.
Also the team looms lost with playing 3 at the back and even our most proven and talented players look just as out of sorts as last year.
Finally, there are so many injuries it makes me cringe just thinking about it.
LVG has his work cut out to say the least. He probably will turn things around but this is a bad start.
This sounds very negative but I'm still stunned by welbeck. I will probably talk more sense in a week or two.
Good OP. And it's 100% true.
As the OP said in another post, the 3 month grace period LvG talks about is to help develop these players tactical awareness to a system that is foreign to players who only worked under SAF. Its a culture shock and will take time for people to become aware of their role in the team.
Also lets not forget that our injuries to our defenders has forced us into keeping this formation - would you rather have 1 inexperienced defender in a back three or 2 in a back four?
I agree with the OP but I don't think that those sentiments fully translate to what's happened in the last month or so. I was hoping he'd bring an objective Eye as you say and rid us of the likes of Young, Valencia, Nani, Cleverley, Fellaini etc but also in the longrun RvP and Mata. Those were the tough decisions I hoped he would be able to make, selling Welbeck achieves nothing in my eyes and frankly breaks my heart, hopefully I'll see things from another perspective soon enough. Falcao+Rooney+Van Persie I fear won't be any more successful than Rooney+RvP+Mata and if i'm right we'll only have further complicated things in the squad. We've also made some good decisions and I'm glad that we've invested in Herrera, Di maria and Shaw though. I want to trust Van Gaal and I think I do but he's left me really confused lately.
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By the way I don't think van Gaal deserves any credit yet. What has he done? All the moves mean exactly shit if we're not gonna be successful. We've played horrible football so far but right now he still has the excuse of injuries and time. Those will be over soon and then judgement day will come for him. Until then, there's no reason to praise anything he has done. All this "change of culture" and "creating an identity" stuff is nice but if it doesn't translate to long-term success, it ain't worth a thing. He had a good first season with Bayern until it all crashed and burned, so it's not like he's the ultimate winner a guy like Mourinho for example is.
I just hope we get our fear factor back, our transfers have certainly made people sit up, let's just hope this new team once its ready gels and plays exciting football.
Er....
im pretty much closing my eyes blindly supporting his decisions because i believe he knows what he's doing.
Can't understand a few Moyes apologists, still dropping vague hints about not being about LvG this season.
Great OP and hopefully should settle some nerves, you can see in his demeanour that this first period for the club matters little results wise to Van Gaal, his job has been to assess the players both in skillset and mentality and he has given chances and seemingly chosen the cull well.
The signings we've made will also need to integrate into his system and thus don't expect a huge upturn in performances straight off. With the added depth of quality our results might offer us more confidence in the philosophy but I imagine we will still suffer poor results until the players have fully grasped each of their individual roles.
It really is one of the most exciting periods we've had at this club since Ferguson re-invented us.
The signings we've made will also need to integrate into his system and thus don't expect a huge upturn in performances straight off. With the added depth of quality our results might offer us more confidence in the philosophy but I imagine we will still suffer poor results until the players have fully grasped each of their individual roles.
It really is one of the most exciting periods we've had at this club since Ferguson re-invented us.
Would agree it was only Fergusons brilliant man management skills that won his last title. Personally I dont think he bought well this decade which couple with Moyes transfer activity last year is the reason we had the squad we did starting this season....However I would disagree with the comment for nearly any perdio pre-2010 where he has had the best crop of youngsters in domestic football, constantly made brilliant buys and had the power to get the best domestic footballers, he created 3 squads of superb quality. Agree with what you say about Moyes......though even with a tough job he made bad moves in the transfer market and always seemed to say the wrong thing for me, he was awful.
totally agree with the rest, but we wont throw away are identity, we needed a massive short term fix this window and people forget Shaw is a teen, Rojo and Blind both quite young as well so long term they could be part of a new identity