LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!

Do you want LVG sacked?


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I genuinely don't know. But then again, no one knew in May that Mourinho would be available in December.

Agreed. I actually didn't want Mourinho to succeed Fergie but right now he is exactly what United needs. If I could select any manager in the world to replace LVG, Mourinho would be in the top 3. As the Moyes and LVG appointments showed, there aren't always a lot of options available when appointing a manager due to the timing. My impression (which means nothing) is that the club's plan is either Giggs or they have no plan at all.

It is absolutely miraculous that such a top class manager has become available when a change in manager makes so much sense. With only 18 months to run on LVG's contract, the club needs to plan for succession now. I would be in favour of replacing him with Mourinho even if he was having a successful season. If doing it now is the way to secure it, then so be it. After a run of 8 games without a win, this is an absolute no brainer.
 
No guarantee, sure. But in football, as in business, you look at trends. There was no guarantee that Moyes wouldn't suddenly lead us to a PL win the next season, but the trends were clear. The team was struggling and regressing and so he had to go. So, what's different now? Nothing at all. The trend is that the team is clearly regressing and is struggling. How many examples are there (again, barring Fergie circa 1989) when a manager has struggled so badly and then suddenly turned it all around to lead his team to unprecedented success?

Regarding the Moyes issue you mentioned, I think the fan's tide turned almost completely when he did the "but I wasn't worse off from last season" and "even SAF would have struggled" quotes, but the board only fired him when it is mathematically clear that top four was unattainable rather than the case they woke one day and recognised the trend was downhill.

I'm a consultant and so shall give you a business analogy. At times, companies appoint an external CEO. Each time, the CEO is carefully chosen by the Board. Many on the Board know nothing about the company's actual business, but all have a sense of finance and can assess CVs. Each candidate has exceptional qualities and one gets chosen. If he fails, the Board moves and appoints a new CEO. The sacked one may go on to lead other companies to glory and all that proves is that he just wasn't the right man for this particular company. His half-season at Chelsea hasn't made Jose a poor manager, just like his stint at United doesn't wipe away LvG's past glories. It's just that both were misfits at this juncture for their respective clubs.
I like that you are bringing in your perspectives as a consultant; it provides more than just a fan's perspective. I think it is very fair to say that both managers seem to be misfits at this current point. Though maybe Mourinho's track record may be more relevant to modern Football, if there is such a thing.

In a similar vein, I am a commodities trader and read all sorts of media spins and see all sorts of conflicting statistics regularly. Even if your analysis is right the markets can prove you wrong. We deal with uncertainty and irrationality Everyday. At the end we are judged simply on the Mid-year and final year profits (and losses). That's more of where I am coming from, do I stop the loss that is LVG? Many fans think so, I don't disagree. But I have had losing trades which turned out to be profitable ones if I hadn't cut them and others that made it genius to stop the bleeding early. So maybe that's why I am rather ambivalent about firing LVG now or end of season.

As a side note, I am just wondering how Ed's conversation with Glazers will go.

(The below is pure idle imaginative speculation)

Ed: So I propose that we sack LVG now.
Board: Are we out of the top four?
Ed: Not yet. Season's only halfway. But the signs aren't good. Fans are complaining.
Board: fans always complain. How are our merchandise sales and match attendances?
Ed: still ok. No discernible decline.
Board: So who have you got in mind to hire?
Ed: Jose Mourinho.
Board: thought he was the manager of Chelsea?
Ed: He got fired recently. Due to bad results at Chelsea who are sitting around relegation zone.
Board: so you want to fire LVG now and replace him with a manager that took his team from champions to relegation?
Ed: oh but Mourinho's got a good track record.
Board: I thought that was one of the reasons we hired LVG.
Ed: ... ....
 
Agreed. I actually didn't want Mourinho to succeed Fergie but right now he is exactly what United needs. If I could select any manager in the world to replace LVG, Mourinho would be in the top 3. As the Moyes and LVG appointments showed, there aren't always a lot of options available when appointing a manager due to the timing. My impression (which means nothing) is that the club's plan is either Giggs or they have no plan at all.

It is absolutely miraculous that such a top class manager has become available when a change in manager makes so much sense. With only 18 months to run on LVG's contract, the club needs to plan for succession now. I would be in favour of replacing him with Mourinho even if he was having a successful season. If doing it now is the way to secure it, then so be it. After a run of 8 games without a win, this is an absolute no brainer.
Us sticking by LVG right now only indicates to me that Giggs will be our next manager. The club wants to see the LVG-Giggs transition through. And the situation right now would be too volatile and dangerous to Giggs for him to take charge. I've always found the Giggs' idea too crazy to take seriously, but everything now is pointing to that possibly being the plan.
 
It seems the only way. But can we look a little further? Too little far, I think.
Self belief's the answer, and not another drink. - Human League
I get your point, but sometimes another pint does bring in more self belief than sullying around :p
 
Us sticking by LVG right now only indicates to me that Giggs will be our next manager. The club wants to see the LVG-Giggs transition through. And the situation right now would be too volatile and dangerous to Giggs for him to take charge. I've always found the Giggs' idea too crazy to take seriously, but everything now is pointing to that possibly being the plan.
If that is indeed the plan and if it backfires, heads should roll.
 
In a similar vein, I am a commodities trader and read all sorts of media spins and see all sorts of conflicting statistics regularly. Even if your analysis is right the markets can prove you wrong. We deal with uncertainty and irrationality Everyday. At the end we are judged simply on the Mid-year and final year profits (and losses). That's more of where I am coming from, do I stop the loss that is LVG? Many fans think so, I don't disagree. But I have had losing trades which turned out to be profitable ones if I hadn't cut them and others that made it genius to stop the bleeding early. So maybe that's why I am rather ambivalent about firing LVG now or end of season.

With relevance to football, in your analogy, not many losing managers have transformed into success at the same club. I am just curious if there is any?. except Ferguson, but still those were different times


As a side note, I am just wondering how Ed's conversation with Glazers will go.

(The below is pure idle imaginative speculation)

Ed: So I propose that we sack LVG now.
Board: Are we out of the top four?
Ed: Not yet. Season's only halfway. But the signs aren't good. Fans are complaining.
Board: fans always complain. How are our merchandise sales and match attendances?
Ed: still ok. No discernible decline.
Board: So who have you got in mind to hire?
Ed: Jose Mourinho.
Board: thought he was the manager of Chelsea?
Ed: He got fired recently. Due to bad results at Chelsea who are sitting around relegation zone.
Board: so you want to fire LVG now and replace him with a manager that took his team from champions to relegation?
Ed: oh but Mourinho's got a good track record.
Board: I thought that was one of the reasons we hired LVG.
Ed: ... ....

Ed: If we stick with LVG, its more likely we are out of top 4. We havent won in 8 games. also we are out of CL

OR

Ed: We were wrong about LVG. Mou has a better track record in PL, except for this season

OR

Ed: Shall we discuss other candidates, if not Mourinho?

OR

Ed: He is asking for money to spend in January, do we trust him with it?. What if things dont improve after January?

And I shall go on and on...
 
Us sticking by LVG right now only indicates to me that Giggs will be our next manager. The club wants to see the LVG-Giggs transition through. And the situation right now would be too volatile and dangerous to Giggs for him to take charge. I've always found the Giggs' idea too crazy to take seriously, but everything now is pointing to that possibly being the plan.
I see it differently. My take on it is that Woodward doesn't want to fire Van Gaal 18 months in - he hired him after firing Moyes 10 months in, so it would reflect badly on him as Vice Chairman (effectively CEO). Perception is everything in business and it's all about ego.
 
Mate, read the post again. I don't say LVG will guarantee TOP 4. I believe he will be sacked if he doesn't.

I simply offer an alternate view as to why the board isn't rushing to sign Mourinho up. I know there are no guarantees in life or Football.

It is often human nature though, to stick to the devil you know than the devil you don't.
You'd be the most liberal boss in the world, wish I could work for you.....!
 
With relevance to football, in your analogy, not many losing managers have transformed into success at the same club. I am just curious if there is any?. except Ferguson, but still those were different times




Ed: If we stick with LVG, its more likely we are out of top 4. We havent won in 8 games. also we are out of CL

OR

Ed: We were wrong about LVG. Mou has a better track record in PL, except for this season

OR

Ed: Shall we discuss other candidates, if not Mourinho?

OR

Ed: He is asking for money to spend in January, do we trust him with it?. What if things dont improve after January?

And I shall go on and on...
No disagreement with any of your points.

I don't know if any other manager has turned around what seems a terrible season by usual standards. How about Arsenal? They usually manage to sneak back into CL places.
 
You'd be the most liberal boss in the world, wish I could work for you.....!
It is just the peculiarities of my job though. I am wrong about 30-40% of the time so I tend to take a more forgiving view. It's usually the mid and year end statement that counts in my industry, where it becomes very cut-throat.
 
It is just the peculiarities of my job though. I am wrong about 30-40% of the time so I tend to take a more forgiving view. It's usually the mid and year end statement that counts in my industry, where it becomes very cut-throat.
We seem to be in a similar industry albeit doing different jobs. I'm all about keeping the momentum up and being 'the rudder' on major strategies - can't afford to misdirect large resources into the wrong direction!
 
If that is indeed the plan and if it backfires, heads should roll.
Heads should have rolled after the Moyes debacle but they didn't and this is why the same people who forced Moyes on the club are dead set on repeating the same mistake with Giggs. If people had been made to pay for that criminally negligent decision, people, at board level, wouldn't be playing Russian Roulette with the club's future as they are doing now.
 
Us sticking by LVG right now only indicates to me that Giggs will be our next manager. The club wants to see the LVG-Giggs transition through. And the situation right now would be too volatile and dangerous to Giggs for him to take charge. I've always found the Giggs' idea too crazy to take seriously, but everything now is pointing to that possibly being the plan.

Afraid so. It is absolutely crazy.
 
So for van Gaal to get us into top four by end of season we need spurs to drop 6 more points than us in second half of the season whilst also having to play them at their ground. There is no way we are finishing above City or Arsenal I'd bet my left nut on it right now so I guess the hope is Leicester go into free fall whilst we suddenly find the ability to score and win games on a regular basis and hope Liverpool can't keep pace. We are pretty shit away from home and still have to go to Anfield, Ethiad, White Hart Lane, games I cannot see us winning.
So not much for LvG to do then. Do the club hierarchy just assume we'll go great guns in the next 19 games when week after week we have just been average to shite all season. They should realise this now that the probability is very low on us finishing top four and I'll also bet my right nut that we wont win the FA Cup or Europa either. If they do not want Mourinho which looks the case then they obviously dont have faith in Giggs yet. That can be the only reason the philosophising one is still in charge.

So two things will happen I will be right, which I'm very sure on or I'll have an empty sack come May.
 
So for van Gaal to get us into top four by end of season we need spurs to drop 6 more points than us in second half of the season whilst also having to play them at their ground. There is no way we are finishing above City or Arsenal I'd bet my left nut on it right now so I guess the hope is Leicester go into free fall whilst we suddenly find the ability to score and win games on a regular basis and hope Liverpool can't keep pace. We are pretty shit away from home and still have to go to Anfield, Ethiad, White Hart Lane, games I cannot see us winning.
So not much for LvG to do then. Do the club hierarchy just assume we'll go great guns in the next 19 games when week after week we have just been average to shite all season. They should realise this now that the probability is very low on us finishing top four and I'll also bet my right nut that we wont win the FA Cup or Europa either. If they do not want Mourinho which looks the case then they obviously dont have faith in Giggs yet. That can be the only reason the philosophising one is still in charge.

So two things will happen I will be right, which I'm very sure on or I'll have an empty sack come May.
Quoted
 
Why? He is kind of right, just to match our 2014-2015 points total, we will need to take 40 points out of 57, that's 12 wins, 4 draws and 3 loses.
Just in case it happens...to remind him to empty his sack. Or lose a nut...
 
Us sticking by LVG right now only indicates to me that Giggs will be our next manager. The club wants to see the LVG-Giggs transition through. And the situation right now would be too volatile and dangerous to Giggs for him to take charge. I've always found the Giggs' idea too crazy to take seriously, but everything now is pointing to that possibly being the plan.

You may well be right about Giggs being our next 'chosen' one. But I could see why other appointment right now is not feasible. If I was a manager, say jose, who is just still hungover from an atrocious 6 months of management, I will possibly think long and hard about taking the United job mid season. The squad isn't good enough and it will take sometime to get them playing the way I want it to which may well be too late for this season. So why further risk my reputation which is anyway under scrutiny. May as well let lvg or an interim caretaker see it through until the summer. No manager actually believes that they can suddenly turn this around in a space of days I am certain.
 
What I find funny in many of the posts that many seem to be convinced that the situation at Chelsea had nothing to do with Mou and everything to do with the players while the situation at Utd is down to the manager alone and not at all to the players.
 
So for van Gaal to get us into top four by end of season we need spurs to drop 6 more points than us in second half of the season whilst also having to play them at their ground. There is no way we are finishing above City or Arsenal I'd bet my left nut on it right now so I guess the hope is Leicester go into free fall whilst we suddenly find the ability to score and win games on a regular basis and hope Liverpool can't keep pace. We are pretty shit away from home and still have to go to Anfield, Ethiad, White Hart Lane, games I cannot see us winning.
So not much for LvG to do then. Do the club hierarchy just assume we'll go great guns in the next 19 games when week after week we have just been average to shite all season. They should realise this now that the probability is very low on us finishing top four and I'll also bet my right nut that we wont win the FA Cup or Europa either. If they do not want Mourinho which looks the case then they obviously dont have faith in Giggs yet. That can be the only reason the philosophising one is still in charge.

So two things will happen I will be right, which I'm very sure on or I'll have an empty sack come May.

Have you still got your right nut :D

This season has been totally unpredictable,everyone is capable of beating each other, we still have a chance of getting a champions league spot.City,Arsenal,Spurs and even liverpool have been blowing hot and cold all season.

I think alot of people on here were expecting a serious title challenge and while that may have evaded us,the champions league spots are still up for grabs.
 
What I find funny in many of the posts that many seem to be convinced that the situation at Chelsea had nothing to do with Mou and everything to do with the players while the situation at Utd is down to the manager alone and not at all to the players.

Both situations are due to the manager, the board and the players. And in both situations the manager is the main culprit.
 
There is also the Eva Carneiro legal dispute to be considered, or at least i think it should be a factor. Does the club wish to take upon itself such disruption and controversy, with the former carryring the potential for consequences on the pitch as well as off it?

And in light of these events, it would be understandable were Mourinho be favouring a return to Madrid. What @Moonred suggests is also quite likely: Jose can let matters play out both here and in Madrid, making his choice in the summer when there is greater certainty. Let's not pretend that each party isn't trying to play the other here either.

Giggs as interim manager with Fergie advising might actually allow us to salvage something from the season, whereas continuing with LVG will only perpetuate the team's present dismal existence.
 
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Both situations are due to the manager, the board and the players. And in both situations the manager is the main culprit.
Well, some of the posters I mentioned seem to be convinced that LvG out and Mou in immediately is a perfect solution.
 
Well, some of the posters I mentioned seem to be convinced that LvG out and Mou in immediately is a perfect solution.

Which has nothing to do with anything, otherwise Van gaal shouldn't have been appointed because of what he did at Bayern, Barcelona or his first stint with the Oranje. I don't want Mourinho but it's not because of what happened at Chelsea this year.
 
Pep Guardiola is taking over as soon as his contract with Bayern is over. There, I've said it. There's no other explanation.
 
What I find funny in many of the posts that many seem to be convinced that the situation at Chelsea had nothing to do with Mou and everything to do with the players while the situation at Utd is down to the manager alone and not at all to the players.
I would think both situations started with the manager, who then got the players at the end of their tether. Once that happens it escalates out of control.
 
Have you still got your right nut :D

This season has been totally unpredictable,everyone is capable of beating each other, we still have a chance of getting a champions league spot.City,Arsenal,Spurs and even liverpool have been blowing hot and cold all season.

I think alot of people on here were expecting a serious title challenge and while that may have evaded us,the champions league spots are still up for grabs.

This is very true and I cant remember a season like this for unpredictability but I do feel strongly that we will fall short. Despite the teams you have mentioned (to a lesser degree Liverpool) I still think they all have better strength in depth and more match winners. Injuries could also hit these teams but again if injuries hit us also I fear they will all find it easier to cope than us due to our manager not strengthening the key area of attack in the summer. Should he rectify this in Jan we will have a better chance of course and my right and lefty will be in jeopardy!
 
What I find funny in many of the posts that many seem to be convinced that the situation at Chelsea had nothing to do with Mou and everything to do with the players while the situation at Utd is down to the manager alone and not at all to the players.

At this moment, I'm inclined to believe our issues are a result of our managers failings, thus far. There have been many signs indicative of this, none more clear than that infamous 6 game period where we managed to implement our philosophy successfully with the right formation and personnel. The fact that we've failed so badly since that period, and have refused to play in a similar manner shows it's an issue created by the manager and not the players.

As for Chelsea, well I haven't watched them a lot, but when I do, they simply don't seem interested. They didn't seem so the few times I watched them with Mourinho at the helm, and even recently, against us. They were absolutely pathetic against us, and we're pretty rubbish ourselves. The lack of interest the other day from Chelsea was astonishing. Almost as much as our lack of skill.
 
Which has nothing to do with anything, otherwise Van gaal shouldn't have been appointed because of what he did at Bayern, Barcelona or his first stint with the Oranje. I don't want Mourinho but it's not because of what happened at Chelsea this year.
But you can't expect the board to not put what happened at Chelsea in their calculations, reasoning etc.
 
At this moment, I'm inclined to believe our issues are a result of our managers failings, thus far. There have been many signs indicative of this, none more clear than that infamous 6 game period where we managed to implement our philosophy successfully with the right formation and personnel. The fact that we've failed so badly since that period, and have refused to play in a similar manner shows it's an issue created by the manager and not the players.

As for Chelsea, well I haven't watched them a lot, but when I do, they simply don't seem interested. They didn't seem so the few times I watched them with Mourinho at the helm, and even recently, against us. They were absolutely pathetic against us, and we're pretty rubbish ourselves. The lack of interest the other day from Chelsea was astonishing. Almost as much as our lack of skill.
So are you saying Mourinho isn't at fault for what happened at Chelsea?
 
But you can't expect the board to not put what happened at Chelsea in their calculations, reasoning etc.

I have defended the club for not sacking LVG and not jumping on the Mourinho train. And to honest if I was a board member I would be behind LVG.
 
So are you saying Mourinho isn't at fault for what happened at Chelsea?

Oh no, not at all. Their lack of interest could stem from Mourinho or it couldn't. But the fact that they are still so poor with him gone shows the issues are bigger than just the manager.
 
Oh no, not at all. Their lack of interest could stem from Mourinho or it couldn't. But the fact that they are still so poor with him gone shows the issues are bigger than just the manager.
Even after Moyes left we didn't suddenly become a good side either. You can't expect a side whose confidence has been zapped just to turn it on because the manager has gone.
I have defended the club for not sacking LVG and not jumping on the Mourinho train. And to honest if I was a board member I would be behind LVG.
Same. Until we find a good replacement. one we know we can have confidence in, the best thing for the club is to hope LVG can turn things around for us to get top 4 at the least then bring a new guy in the summer.
 
Man United in 2015: PL 38; W 18; D 10; L 10; GF 51; GA 34; GD 17; PTS 64
Man United in 13/14: PL 38; W 19; D 7; L 12; GF 64; GA 43; GD 21; PTS 64
 
Even after Moyes left we didn't suddenly become a good side either. You can't expect a side whose confidence has been zapped just to turn it on because the manager has gone.

You saw a completely different team, that's for sure. Under LvG, we started the season full of confidence, with some good performances against teams who bullied us the season before. Old Trafford slowly became the fortress it was known to be, as well.

Chelsea, albeit only after three games, look exactly the same, if not worse. You'd think they'd be more motivated to play, given the change of manager the players seemingly wanted, However, their performance against us shows the complete opposite.
 
One of the biggest problems I have with this so far is that Utd are not acting due to not wanting to be a sacking club and want to stick by their manager......neither which are criteria based on the manager's performance or results. At what point does this stance change? I suspect when it is too late and the damage is done.
 
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