LV Monopoly draft - SF2: Jayvin vs. Enigma

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 great team but I have concern about your right side, Did Eusebio even played toward the right side, didn't he used to lean on the left side, to cut in on his stronger right foot ? It seem Alves is the only player on the right side and him alone against Henry-Facchetti is not going to end well. Now Facchetti would have the same problem as Alves but -
a) He is a better defender (Not by too much though, From what I have seen he is always overrated defensively in drafts IMO).
b) I am not sure if Eusebio would even attack him.

Eusebio is what you can call a complete attacker and forward. I'd probably compare him to Kaka in a sense, but an upgrade in pretty much every department with the exception of playmaking. From what I've seen of him (Portugal and CL games for Benfica of that era) he is predominantly an inside right, he occupied the right channel more, but you can see him as an inside left in some games or a center forward(although at his best he was playing off a main forward). I'd have the best of him with an overlapping right back and no #10 to clash with.

As for targetting Facchetti, he had an excellent shooting technique and usually went into the channel or where he saw a free space. He'll surely target him and doesn't have to go centrally all the time to score. He's great at scoring from narrow angle as his brace against Brazil in the WC came and when he dribbled past Di Stefano in that CL final he pretty much hugged the line until going in the box when he dribbled past couple of players.He needed more space to operate in and to he'll surely use the free space either centrally or wide when he sees fit.

He's not the inverted wide forward from my memory but liked a bit more the right channel (or it was tactically that he was mostly deployed there).

 

[Enigma_87]

Great battles all over the pitch.

Some proven partnerships: Ronaldinho-Xavi-Alves, Ronaldinho-R9, Stam-Ferdinand-Keane...

Platini is a very hard undertaking for the opposing midfield and I would have preferred a destroyer against Platini.

On the other hand, who can stop R9 at his prime?

My vote is still susceptible to change.

Souness and Schuster are both physical players and can stuck in and shore that space for Platini hence we have a three midfielders in deeper position to avoid that danger. I think Eusebio will have a good game here behind Keane/Bozsik and take advantage of the relative lack of mobility of Bozsik when Facchetti joins the attack.

I didn't want a particular destroyer as it will go against my midfield plan all along(with the exception of few destroyers that are good on the ball, but I really like my midfield as it is).

We also have Maldini - Desailly playing together for Milan(not as the same combo but still)

 

[antohan]

Eusebio is what you can call a complete attacker and forward. I'd probably compare him to Kaka in a sense, but an upgrade in pretty much every department with the exception of playmaking. From what I've seen of him (Portugal and CL games for Benfica of that era) he is predominantly an inside right, he occupied the right channel more, but you can see him as an inside left in some games or a center forward(although at his best he was playing off a main forward). I'd have the best of him with an overlapping right back and no #10 to clash with.

As for targetting Facchetti, he had an excellent shooting technique and usually went into the channel or where he saw a free space. He'll surely target him and doesn't have to go centrally all the time to score. He's great at scoring from narrow angle as his brace against Brazil in the WC came and when he dribbled past Di Stefano in that CL final he pretty much hugged the line until going in the box when he dribbled past couple of players.He needed more space to operate in and to he'll surely use the free space either centrally or wide when he sees fit.

He's not the inverted wide forward from my memory but liked a bit more the right channel (or it was tactically that he was mostly deployed there).

Agree with all that. In fact, I voted for you on the basis he will be MotM and the difference that separates the sides.

 

[Gio]

Very tight. Two rock-solid teams tactically well executed. It might come down to which of Facchetti/Henry and Alves/Eusebio has the better game.

I don't think you do actually, looks pretty even to me and imo both of your centre backs peaked in other positions.

Good point and agreed.

That doesn't change where Maldini's best position was though which was clearly left back. He partnered Nesta a number of times in the early-mid 00's and it was always clear imo that Nesta was the better central defender.

I'd agree that Nesta was a notch above, but in fairness Maldini was well into his 30s by that point.

Still you're right with the main point that both central defences are even here.

My first reaction was the same as that of @harms but then I realised that must have been your thinking, and massive kudos for that: Keane belongs in a box-to-box role, he shouldn't be shackled to cover Giacinto.

I like Jayvin's pro-active rationale here. Bozsik holds the flank by usually being behind the ball, keeping it and being positionally disciplined - he doesn't need to be some sort of swashbuckling midfield-cum-wing-back powerhouse. That's the basic premise of the double pivot in a modern 4-2-3-1.

 

[Physiocrat]

Sure, but the layout here is more like Abidal after Bronckhorst, pretty much similar in that LCB role in fact.

Ronaldinho is one that can truly offer width on the wing and will be looking to exploit openings and also moving inside provides space for Ronaldo to peel into.

I see what you're trying to do I just think it is limiting Ronaldinho as he'll have to stick out wider left for longer than he'd want. If he doesn't it could get somewhat clustered in the middle.

 

[Enigma_87]

I see what you're trying to do I just think it is limiting Ronaldinho as he'll have to stick out wider left for longer than he'd want. If he doesn't it could get somewhat clustered in the middle.

Nah, I won't limit him to a left winger. It's pretty much what his partnership with Eto'o was all about. You'll have Ronaldo dropping in channels and moving to the left while making space for Eusebio or Ronaldinho in this case coming in the middle. It's pretty much what Ronnie would want - time on the ball on the left but also space to run in the center.

Ronaldo being the center forward helps a lot in our tactics here, as he's exactly the type we need to partner both Eusebio and Ronnie, while if it was Marco van Basten or Muller it won't work in this formation and indeed will be a bit narrow.

Ronaldo on his own gives a lot of support wide hence the desired effect in the interchangeability of all three forwards.

 

[Jayvin]

Dani Alves is the attacking one on the right flank and with not much cover from Henry on the left and only Facchetti there he'll have some joy.

You can say exactly the same about my side though though; Facchetti is attacking the left flank with no cover from Eusebio and only Dani Alves defending him. I also have Bozsik on that side who will help out defensively far more than Xavi would for your team.

 

[Enigma_87]

You can say exactly the same about my side though though; Facchetti is attacking the left flank with no cover from Eusebio and only Dani Alves defending him. I also have Bozsik on that side who will help out defensively far more than Xavi would for your team.

I think Xavi always gets underrated in those drafts in terms of covering and defensive game. At his prime his work rate was brilliant both for Barca and the Spanish national team. Bozsik lacks the same mobility Davids would bring to the game for example and I'm not sure that he'll do that role better than Xavi who has proven his defensive acumen in even less defensive set up (I'd rate the defensive work Schuster and Souness will put in this game notch above Busquets and Iniesta, mainly because of Souness of course).

 

[antohan]

I think Xavi always gets underrated in those drafts in terms of covering and defensive game. At his prime his work rate was brilliant both for Barca and the Spanish national team. Bozsik lacks the same mobility Davids would bring to the game for example and I'm not sure that he'll do that role better than Xavi who has proven his defensive acumen in even less defensive set up (I'd rate the defensive work Schuster and Souness will put in this game notch above Busquets and Iniesta, mainly because of Souness of course).

You are touching upon one of the key reasons to have some form of disciplinary interference like the one we are trialing (maybe imperfectly, but that's what trials are about).

A midfield of Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets is deemed lightweight in drafts, despite the fact we all saw how effective they were. They formed one of the most dominant and successful midfield units ever for club and country, yet when faced with something like the Davids-Keane Jayvin had in previous games they get murdered.

Here's a relevant fact on those three: they jointly piled up 4 reds in their entire career. So, on top of their lack of injuries, they rarely got sent off or suspended. This isn't just about reds, in any short tourno two yellows land you a suspension. Look at us, we had to play a CL Final without Keane and Scholes the Championship tackler (and still won it @Balu ). Is it fair that the other murderous pair who jointly have 30 reds don't present any downside? At the very least, going into a second half they would both likely be on a yellow and with their game conditioned by that.

None of that gets factored in.

 

[antohan]

It's HALF-TIME! (well, it has been for a while but I'm watching us beat Chile ).

Edit: I knew I shouldn't count my chicken. Bollocks!

 

[antohan]

For all the talk about hardmen... First a yellow for diving, then another for handball. Karma catches up with you sooner or later...

Spoiler

But one of his rivals goes a bit OTT rubbing it in his face. Bit of a cnut this chap really, he gets a yellow and goes off on one finger pointing at the ref... Oh boy...

Spoiler

He is off as well.

@Jayvin @Enigma_87 you can make a sub if you want.

 

[Enigma_87]

 

[Enigma_87]

right after both sent off's our team will look more like the pic above.

Our midfield loses one brave warrior and Souness with Xavi will step couple of yards back to keep the balance there engaging in titanic battle against Jayvin's midfield.

Jayvin loses a major goalscoring threat in Henry who also gives the width on the left, so Facchetti is probably the only one posing danger there, hence no immediate changes needed to the Xavi/Dani Alves side.

Attack remains the same in terms of configuration. Probably Eusebio needs to put a bigger shift in when needed, but with 6 players having defensive duties in the team and Souness and Xavi brilliant at starting a counter I think they will be fine here.

 

[Jayvin]

The team will play in a similar way for the time being while the manager mulls over his options. One small change for now Bozsik and Keane switch sides so Keane can support Facchetti and attack the inside left channel vacated by Henry when he bursts forward.

 

[Jayvin]

Henry wasn't doing jack defensively, so I don't think his sending off will hurt me too much on that side. For Enigma's team I think Schuster is a big loss, one less midfielder to do a job on Platini which means Desailly may be dragged out to pick him up, opening up space for Romario.

 

[Enigma_87]

Henry wasn't doing jack against Dani Alves so I don't think his sending off will hurt me too much defensively on that side. For Enigma's team I think Schuster is a big loss, one less midfielder to do a job on Platini which means Desailly may be dragged out to pick him up, opening up space for Romario.

In the defensive phase Souness will pick up Platini now. His physical style is something Platini won't like all that much and would be a good match for him with his great tackling abilities.

Schuster is a loss alright but Xavi / Souness is again a midfield that has it all both in creative and defensive aspect.

I think losing Henry is on the contrary - a major loss for your side, judging by the comments so far. Schnellinger will pick Jairzinho, Maldini - Romario and Souness/Desailly will be aware for Platini, while Dani Alves/Xavi would watch out for Facchetti's forward runs.

 

[Enigma_87]

Some fond memories of the Black Panther.

I think he's the decisive player in a game like this and after the circumstances. He'll have space both wide and in the center.

What also needs to be mentioned about him is that although being naturally right footed and that being his better foot, he did have a one hell of a leftie. The highlights above you can see a lot of quality goals with his left both outside and in the box, along with what I've already mentioned goals from impossible angles(mainly from the right). He was such a complete forward.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Voted Jayvin, much prefer his midfield with little to separate the rest .

@Enigma_87 please stop calling Peter schmeichel schmikes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Voted Jayvin, much prefer his midfield with little to separate the rest .

@Enigma_87 please stop calling Peter schmeichel schmikes.

I think we had an edge in midfield, while now it's a bit equal battle considering Platini. However losing Henry makes our attack more formidable, while having the defence intact. Our right flank(which is the more attacking one) won't have the Henry threat, which will make Jayvin's attack more central and Jairzinho as wide player has a pretty good match in Schnellinger.

While on the other side our attack is really more diverse and posses a bigger goalscoring threat IMO.

on Schmeichel, why out of interest? I always called him by that so it is a bit of a tick that has remained.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Two great teams here. Voted for Enigma simply because his attack captured my imagination more. Ronaldinho/Eusebio/Ronaldo is just insane, and I can picture them being highly complementary. I agree with Enigma that collectively they'll work the entire width of the pitch as well. I don't see any real concerns with a lack of width there, particularly not with Dani Alves supporting on one side.

I'll have a think about how the red cards alter things, but I don't see it changing the result for me.

 

[Jayvin]

I think we had an edge in midfield, while now it's a bit equal battle considering Platini.

I didn't think you had the edge in midfield before and I certainly don't now that it's 2v3 and Platini will have more space to get forward and attract/disorient the defenders.

However losing Henry makes our attack more formidable, while having the defence intact. Our right flank(which is the more attacking one) won't have the Henry threat, which will make Jayvin's attack more central and Jairzinho as wide player has a pretty good match in Schnellinger.

It was already fairly central with Henry there, he would've been cutting inside more often than not. The only real difference I think it makes is I lose the extra attacker coming in from the left to take defenders away from Romario. However as I mentioned earlier the extra space for Platini following the sending off of Schuster should negate that loss somewhat.

 

[Enigma_87]

I didn't think you had the edge in midfield before and I certainly don't now that it's 2v3 and Platini will have more space to get forward and attract/disorient the defenders.

well, naturally we will be disagreeing on that one

It was already fairly central with Henry there, he would've been cutting inside more often than not. The only real difference I think it makes is I lose the extra attacker coming in from the left to take defenders away from Romario. However as I mentioned earlier the extra space for Platini following the sending off of Schuster should negate that loss somewhat.

That extra attacker gave you both width on the left side and probably the second best finisher in the side apart from Romario. I think with that loss the attack suffers a lot obviously, but also gives Dani Alves one less worry given that the right side is our more attacking one.

Souness will come against Platini more and his style is a good fit to disrupt his game in a sense.

 

[Enigma_87]

Very tight. Two rock-solid teams tactically well executed. It might come down to which of Facchetti/Henry and Alves/Eusebio has the better game.

I think this is the real difference in both sides after the reds, apart from obviously working in a bit more space, which IMO works for Eusebio and Alves a lot more given the current circumstances.

 

[Jayvin]

That extra attacker gave you both width on the left side and probably the second best finisher in the side apart from Romario. I think with that loss the attack suffers a lot obviously, but also gives Dani Alves one less worry given that the right side is our more attacking one.

Facchetti has always been the one supplying the width on the left side, and he's still there. Obviously Henry is a loss but I think moving Keane over to the left side and Platini's increased freedom should go some way to addressing the problems his sending off has caused.

 

[Enigma_87]

Facchetti has always been the one supplying the width on the left side, and he's still there. Obviously Henry is a loss but I think moving Keane over to the left side and Platini's increased freedom should go some way to addressing the problems his sending off has caused.

Facchetti is still there, sure, but he needs to track his man as well and he's primary a defender in 4 men defence - not the obvious threat down the wing especially with a man down.

Moving Keane there helps in that sense but still doesn't solve the void left by Henry which was essentially the better side of your attack compared to the right with Thuram in defensive role.

Anyhow off to bed now will be back again tomorrow. Night mate.

 

[antohan]

I like how the random event gets manager busy and the arguments, or their emphasis, revisited

 

[Jayvin]

I like how the random event gets manager busy and the arguments, or their emphasis, revisited

Yeah it's good to shake things up a bit. What do you make of the teams now sans Schuster and Henry?

 

[antohan]

Yeah it's good to shake things up a bit. What do you make of the teams now sans Schuster and Henry?

I think you are both right.

Enigma is right that Alves now has more freedom to push forward and Henry's absence tips the balance in the battle over that flank.

He is wrong in that this is the only thing the game hinges on: Platini is indeed having a lot more space and freedom and your midfield is now stronger than his.

He has more firepower though, he only touched upon it, but it's probably the biggest difference. You've lost more than he has.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

The red cards make it a bit easier for me... then again I have to take the first half into account which I haven't done yet really.

While Jayvin loses width on that flank, I think that is compensated for by Schuster being a big loss to Engima's midfield cohesion. Xavi is no passenger but he is really not suited to the midfield two role here IMO with what Enigma describes as a fast direct tempo tactic. The possession game was a big part of Barcelona and Spain's defense. I can't really see Xavi being at his best in a 10 man midfield 2 playing a fast direct style. Just looking at the formations, Henry looks less of a loss to that side than Schuster who really completed that midfield. Still its hard to pull the trigger against Eusebio, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo.

 

[Gio]

I think you are both right.

Enigma is right that Alves now has more freedom to push forward and Henry's absence tips the balance in the battle over that flank.

He is wrong in that this is the only thing the game hinges on: Platini is indeed having a lot more space and freedom and your midfield is now stronger than his.

He has more firepower though, he only touched upon it, but it's probably the biggest difference. You've lost more than he has.

I'd agree with those points but come to the opposite conclusion. Alves has the opportunity to push right up (his position would likely be instinctively higher than that presented on the team sheet) and should engage Facchetti in more of a head-to-head box-to-box battle. Platini now has the opportunity to gain control of the midfield and I don't see Xavi excelling in a midfield where he has to play a defensive contain-and-counter approach that inevitably sees less of the ball. There are a couple more nuances I can't be arsed typing out on my phone but in simple terms Platini can yield more influence on the game now than Alves.

 

[Tuppet]

The red cards make it a bit easier for me... then again I have to take the first half into account which I haven't done yet really.

While Jayvin loses width on that flank, I think that is compensated for by Schuster being a big loss to Engima's midfield cohesion. Xavi is no passenger but he is really not suited to the midfield two role here IMO with what Enigma describes as a fast direct tempo tactic. The possession game was a big part of Barcelona and Spain's defense. I can't really see Xavi being at his best in a 10 man midfield 2 playing a fast direct style. Just looking at the formations, Henry looks less of a loss to that side than Schuster who really completed that midfield. Still its hard to pull the trigger against Eusebio, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo.

Agree with all this, think the red card has fecked Enigma's team a lot more. It was already a pretty tall order for his midfield to contain Platini, but in a midfield 2 I just don't see it happening at all.

 

[Enigma_87]

To be fair I thought Jayvin lost a bit more after those reds as it hampered his attack while I don't think it changed too much for us. Souness is a great fit for Platini and we really have to defend against less variety in attack and with less numbers than it was before.


Anyhow this has gone beyond the reach and with little time left I can only congratulate @Jayvin. Good luck in the final mate you have built a great team.

 

[Jayvin]

Cheers @Enigma_87 good game, well argued.

 

[antohan]

I'd agree with those points but come to the opposite conclusion. Alves has the opportunity to push right up (his position would likely be instinctively higher than that presented on the team sheet) and should engage Facchetti in more of a head-to-head box-to-box battle. Platini now has the opportunity to gain control of the midfield and I don't see Xavi excelling in a midfield where he has to play a defensive contain-and-counter approach that inevitably sees less of the ball. There are a couple more nuances I can't be arsed typing out on my phone but in simple terms Platini can yield more influence on the game now than Alves.

Yeah, in terms of game control Enigma lost his grip, bit I felt the loss of firepower and Giacinto's associate was more significant. There's nobody to cross high to so Facchetti really has to do solo Roy of the Rovers stuff and cut back or shoot himself. He can, but maybe I appreciated Henry's role there more than most.

 

[antohan]

For the record, the red card rules where as follows:

Initially, when players got one ticket every 5 reds:
1) If Team A has twice as many tickets, if the draw falls on a Team B player, Team A also has a player drawn out.

2) If a Team A player goes, then Team B lost a player if a 5-vote swing materialised.

After it was expanded to 1 red = 1 ticket:

3) If the rival team has players with at least twice as many reds as the one that got rolled, these go into a draw.

Condition 3 was met both times.

If Keane had been drawn here, nobody has twice as many so it would have been pretty brutal (lose Keane, sub on Zmuda or Rooney in midfield and wait for the 5 vote swing handicap).

But in future, with managers forewarned and large enough squads it should be fair cop (18 should be enough, will just make the likes of Luis Enrique and RLBs hotter property).

 

[Joga Bonito]

Now Facchetti would have the same problem as Alves but -
a) He is a better defender (Not by too much though, From what I have seen he is always overrated defensively in drafts IMO).

I get where you are coming from and I do think he gets overrated at times, not as an individual though, but as an entity capable of fulfilling both his attacking and defensive remits, with minimal to non-existent support at times on here. Do think he is a fantastic defender though, so could you elaborate on that statement.

A midfield of Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets is deemed lightweight in drafts, despite the fact we all saw how effective they were. They formed one of the most dominant and successful midfield units ever for club and country, yet when faced with something like the Davids-Keane Jayvin had in previous games they get murdered.

Agreed but I do think it's a topic worthy of a discussion. They are lightweight, as a matter of fact, but they were able to completely bypass that, with the style of play utilized by Spain and Barca, and of course their tactical acumen - brains over brawn and what not. That's not to paint them as weakling midgets, which they weren't, but rather as individuals who did rely on the system a fair deal off the ball (pressing, cutting off passing lanes and applying pressure systematically) and used their sheer dominance on the ball to simply gain a stranglehold on the match, and simply bypass the 'midfield battle/encounter'.

So in a more conventional match-up, whereby the said midfield individuals aren't exactly going to employ their usual off the ball tactics to the same extent (due to their side being not compatible with it), nor enjoy the same dominance on the ball, it is a valid question as to what extent that lightweight midfield will fare in a scrap against the likes of Keane-Davids etc. That's not to say they will get swamped and they will put a decent shift in. Point being that, you can't quite expect them to have the same level of off the ball defensive effectiveness outside that system, although the main factor, as always, is their whether they can gain control of the proceedings on the ball or not.

Regarding the discussion on Xavi, I do think he's one of the more industrious and well rounded midfield playmakers out there, but I wouldn't say there is much separating him from his midfield contemporaries, such as Suarez and Bozsik off the ball.

 

[antohan]

Point being that, you can't quite expect them to have the same level of off the ball defensive effectiveness outside that system, although the main factor, as always, is their whether they can gain control of the proceedings on the ball or not.

Sure, but even in that system they often get deemed pushovers.

Regarding the discussion on Xavi, I do think he's one of the more industrious and well rounded midfield playmakers out there, but I wouldn't say there is much separating him from his midfield contemporaries, such as Suarez and Bozsik off the ball.

Point in case, often seen as a passenger that won't do feck all defensively. Yes, he isn't a Davids, but would be superior to Scholes for instance but Scholes never gets regarded as pretty much not being there at all off the ball the way Xavi is.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Enigma_87 has made a fantastic job here as a manager.

A nice video about Schuster

 

[Tuppet]

I get where you are coming from and I do think he gets overrated at times, not as an individual though, but as an entity capable of fulfilling both his attacking and defensive remits, with minimal to non-existent support at times on here. Do think he is a fantastic defender though, so could you elaborate on that statement.

Well he was a very good defender but he is usually depicted as a combination of Maldini and Roberto Carlos at the same time. For remake draft I watched a few matches of Herrera's Inter and it was plain to me that he was closer to Carlos than Maldini. In some of the games he was ending up further than even forwards like Mazzola and not anywhere near to his position. It was not so much as bad defending as no defending.
Now there is one thing, He can shut off the shop when Inter was going full catenaccio like against Madrid and Benfica as he was big, strong and fast and can read the game very well. Something which most attacking wing back can't do, but then don't expect him to do much in attacking, like Di Stefano noticed -

Prior to the final, Miguel Muñoz, the Madrid coach, had obsessed about Facchetti. “He drove us mad with Facchetti, giving him an incredible importance,” Di Stéfano said, according to Lowe. “Anyone would think he was [Paco] Gento. So what happened? Facchetti never attacked us once.”

While we are on it, from what I have seen he was also more of an inverted wing back than an overlapping full back. He seem to be more interested going in central positions than up and down on left wing, often somebody else (Corso or Mazzola) use to cross or provide a cut back from wings toward him, while he slot the ball from almost center forward positions. In attacking phase he really looked like a striker playing from left back position, which is absolutely brilliant. Also just adding that I am talking in relative terms here, he is not as good as Maldini but as I noticed he is a better defender than the likes of Alves and Carlos, while also being a better attacker.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 has made a fantastic job here as a manager.

A nice video about Schuster

Thanks mate. I enjoyed the draft and really tried to present both Schuster(in that holding role) and Eusebio here so I've thoroughly enjoyed this one.