LV Monopoly draft - QF2: harms vs Tuppet

[mazhar13]

I think the fact that he is often included in glorified XIs as a number 10, despite not really playing like one throughout his career, changed the perception of him as a player.

I was just about to say that myself. Before I actually watched Charlton play, I used to think that he was always a central attacking midfielder in his older years. However, after watching more of his matches, I have come to see that he's not really what I used to think of him. How you currently have Charlton in the team is exactly how he played for both club and country.

Speaking of that, I really like harms' team, overall. It's very balanced, and I see no player playing an awkward role here. Everyone is able to function as they naturally should, and most of the players in that side are proper grafters who worked hard and covered quite a bit of ground. Tuppet's team, however, has a few issues, most notably Zé Roberto, but the fact that Vieira is playing a more defensive role here is also an issue for me. He's always been a more offensive box-to-box midfielder who used his physical prowess and skill on the ball to cause havoc, and defensively, he would be much better off with a more dedicated defensive player. I mean, just look at him as a coach: his NYCFC team conceded 57 goals in the regular season (most out of all teams that qualified for the playoffs), and his NYCFC team conceded 7 against TFC in the playoffs. I know that this is a very strange argument, but it goes to show you what Vieira's overall approach to the game was.

I can also see Joga's point regarding the Pirlo-Cruyff conundrum, but then again, Seedorf and Pirlo worked very well together, so I don't see how Cruyff and Pirlo can really have problems here. If anything, Pirlo will be the main man to start off attacks and play the ball to the dangerous players' feet in more advanced positions. Having said that, though, this isn't the most compatible setup for both, and either would work better with someone who's more of a grafter in the opposite phase (Cruyff with an anchor man + dynamic midfielders, Pirlo with a focal point on the attack who will stretch opponents and create gaps a la Villa vs. TFC yesterday).

I just cannot look past harms' side. It's so beautifully built, and the midfield is a football aficionado's dream!

 

[Theon]

Tuppet's team is a thing of beauty!

Agreed - the midfield and attack is fantastic.

I think Pirlo would thrive in that midfield set up and I see him playing some lovely stuff with Cruyff.

 

[antohan]

I think the fact that he is often included in glorified XIs as a number 10, despite not really playing like one throughout his career, changed the perception of him as a player.

When I have the time (rarely these days) I should get around conveying some of the observations from Diego Lucero (@Annahnomoss, that goes for Leonidas as well). I distinctly remember him writing about Charlton as a shining light in '62 (despite there being much to write about others with a more successful tournament) and in '66 again but, on balance, rating his '62 persona peeling out wide down the left flank very highly.

 

[Enigma_87]

Close one this. I have no issues with both line ups and formations. Tuppet has build a tremendous attack that would work given the personal in it. The midfield is also quality. Harms has upper hand in the defence and both his midfield and attack are excellent. Can't see any side preventing the other from scoring so it will go down to which defence copes better with the task and the more clinical attack. Haven't made up my mind yet, will see how the discussion goes.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I think Harms' team dominates the midfield here. Yeah, on the other side you have three of the greatest attackers in history, but I get more of a sense of overall balance with Harms' team. I also like his back line a lot.

 

[Physiocrat]

Bossis can attack if needs be, I wouldn't swap him at all. Nor would I go witha third defensive midfielder at the cost of Pirlo's passing. Busquets maybe, but not Mascherano.

I should have the finished my thought properly. I'd have the midfield three something like this:

Tardelli-------Pirlo
-----Mascherano

Ideally replace Pirlo with someone like Veron or Luis Suarez for more mobility

 

[Moby]

I think the fact that he is often included in glorified XIs as a number 10, despite not really playing like one throughout his career, changed the perception of him as a player.

Well, it is difficult to pin-point the players of that era in the positions of modern formation. Di Stefano is often played as a #10 and is generally regarded a great 'central player' who'd be fantastic at multiple positions down the spine of a modern formation, yet he played as an inside left throughout his career at Madrid and there's a wonderful quote that goes: "In Madrid, the field at the Santiago Bernabeu Stadium leans to the left because Alfredo Di Stéfano had played so much on this side."

Yet, you have most people always portraying him as nothing more as a #10, and you'd have a lot of questions if you tried to use him in a similar role as Sir Bobby here, when Di Stefano is possibly the most complete player of all time. It is quite similar for a lot of attacking generals of that era, as they were incredibly complete and often took up several roles in those five man frontlines, but when they have to be accommodated into modern formations, they do get stereotyped.

 

[Moby]

Tardelli-------Pirlo
-----Mascherano

Ideally replace Pirlo with someone like Veron or Luis Suarez for more mobility

Nah, Pirlo looks way, way better in this midfield than that one, like you said someone more like a Suarez or a Neeskens would be a better fit there, but this one gets the best out of Pirlo and he's right up there with anyone when put in the right setup.

 

[Annahnomoss]

When I have the time (rarely these days) I should get around conveying some of the observations from Diego Lucero (@Annahnomoss, that goes for Leonidas as well). I distinctly remember him writing about Charlton as a shining light in '62 (despite there being much to write about others with a more successful tournament) and in '66 again but, on balance, rating his '62 persona peeling out wide down the left flank very highly.

That would be great!

 

[harms]

I also have to remind you that Brehme or Charlton, who are going under the radar here, especially in their offensive contribution, can easily decide the game with a wonderstrike, as they often did on the occasion.

Brehme scored in 2 World Cup semi-finals, and a winner against the mighty Dutch team in 1990.


Charlton, with Vieira and Tardelli sitting deep, has the space to launch one of his thunderous strikes - and, well, you simply can't ignore the goalthreat from a man who held England's goalscoring record for decades and is still the most prolific goalscorer in United history.


Not to mention that Zico scored more free-kicks than any other footballer in history, and I'm not sure that Tuppet's defence will stop Zico/Romario/Charlton/Finney without a foul every time

 

[harms]

Nah, Pirlo looks way, way better in this midfield than that one, like you said someone more like a Suarez or a Neeskens would be a better fit there, but this one gets the best out of Pirlo and he's right up there with anyone when put in the right setup.

Btw, it's interesting, why do you think that Pirlo would be comfortable here, considering that Zico and Romario are running around him? I tend to agree with Physiocrat, move Pirlo from my front two and he'll have a much better game, while Mascherano will disrupt their game in a way Pirlo never would.

In vacuum, it seems like a perfect Pirlo set-up. In this game - not so much, for me, at least

 

[Moby]

Btw, it's interesting, why do you think that Pirlo would be comfortable here, considering that Zico and Romario are running around him? I tend to agree with Physiocrat, move Pirlo from my front two and he'll have a much better game, while Mascherano will disrupt their game in a way Pirlo never would.

That's a pretty weird take on it, Pirlo never in his career was responsible of disrupting the opposition play, his duties are pretty much completely when they have the ball and when they don't he has Vieira and Tardelli - two of the best workhorses in the game - doing the defending like you had Gattuso and Ambrosini/Seedorf do it during his time at Milan while he has pretty decent defensive skills himself as support. Just because he is positioned deeper has nothing to do with his defensive duty. He's a deep-lying playmaker role playing in a design he did for almost all his career - in a counter attacking setup taking the ball and launching devastating counters - facing all sorts of attacks without hurting his team. Moreover, he will be vital when the back four would want to keep the ball to defend. He isn't going to be the last man or anything when anyone in your team has the ball, ever.

 

[harms]

That's a pretty weird take on it, Pirlo never in his career was responsible of disrupting the opposition play, his duties are pretty much completely when they have the ball and when they don't he has Vieira and Tardelli - two of the best workhorses in the game - doing the defending like you had Gattuso and Ambrosini/Seedorf do it during his time at Milan while he has pretty decent defensive skills himself as support. Just because he is positioned deeper has nothing to do with his defensive duty. He's a deep-lying playmaker role playing in a design he did for almost all his career - in a counter attacking setup taking the ball and launching devastating counters - facing all sorts of attacks without hurting his team. Moreover, he will be vital when the back four would want to keep the ball to defend. He isn't going to be the last man or anything when anyone in your team has the ball, ever.

I'm not talking about him being incapable of disrupting the game like Mascherano, even though it will be a bonus. I'm talking about the fact that he was moved deeper because he loved a free space ahead of him, and a considerable time to make a decision. We all remember what happened when Park was put on him - Pirlo said that it was a crime against football, and he meant it, he hated when someone was around him. The thing is, Zico and Romario are both energetic and quite tough, and I think that they won't let Pirlo be on the ball as long as he likes to. Moving him further in this game will give him more space and freedom.

To make myself more clear - if it would've been someone like Zidane instead of Zico, it would've been fine. Zico (like Maradona, they were quite similar in that regard) with his style of play will be a nuisance to Pirlo - and it won't even require anything additional to his usual game, he'll do it naturally

 

[Moby]

and a considerable time to make a decision.

First of all, that is absolutely inaccurate, and the absolute opposite of that is true. Secondly, your front two aren't going to ever press him in a way that he loses any time on the ball, even though he actually never needed more than a split second.

We all remember what happened when Park was put on him

During the later stages of his career when he was past his peak and the Milan team was in shambles? He had reached three CL finals before that event in his career, winning two of them, playing the absolute exact role he is here with and he has better defensive midfield next to him here.

The thing is, Zico and Romario are both energetic and quite tough, and I think that they won't let Pirlo be on the ball as long as he likes to.

Just, never going to happen. We must have seen two completely different players. They simply aren't going to bother half as much as you'd want from someone trying to play the role you talk about there, and I spoke of this in the post where I explained my vote - and you yourself just gave an example of an attacking player like Park who did that job, Zico and Romario off the ball are nowhere near that, and in fact if you did actually have such players who could disrupt Pirlo's rhythm then it would have been a lot more difficult to decide. In this case you very evidently, don't.

Moving him further in this game will give him more space and freedom.

If he could win Champions Leagues and World Cups while being the team's best creative player in all those competitions without any team forcing his manager to do that, he won't have any problem here.

Honestly surprised by criticism of Pirlo of all players in this setup, as he's in his absolute element here and would really shine.

 

[Theon]

Btw, it's interesting, why do you think that Pirlo would be comfortable here, considering that Zico and Romario are running around him?

That game against Milan is getting hyped beyond belief if you're trying to suggest Pirlo had some sort of weakness to getting pressed - because that's nonsense, players consistently struggled to press him which is how he ended up running so many games.

But also you're out your mind if you're suggesting that Romario and Zico would have a similar influence in pressing/man marking a playmaker as Park would. They don't have anywhere near the same defensive work-rate - particularly Romario.

And you surely wouldn't want them doing that role anyway.. You want Romario playing on the shoulder and running in behind, not dropping back to try and hassle Pirlo.

Tuppet has clearly constructed his midfield extremely well and it is the exact sort of set up that Pirlo would thrive in. The potential overlap with Cruyff is a point I expected to be brought up (though I disagree with it), but I'm shocked anything else has been criticised in terms of the set up with Pirlo. It looks pretty text book to me.

 

[harms]

But also you're out your mind if you're suggesting that Romario and Zico would have a similar influence in pressing/man marking a playmaker as Park would. They don't have anywhere near the same defensive work-rate - particularly Romario.

I'm not, and I haven't said it.

 

[Theon]

I'm not, and I haven't said it.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up Park then or what you are actually suggesting.

It seems clear to me that you were saying that Pirlo is vulnerable to getting pressed on the ball, and you cited his game against Park as an example, and then suggested that Romario and Zico would cause him similar problems in this game.

 

[antohan]

I should have the finished my thought properly. I'd have the midfield three something like this:

Tardelli-------Pirlo
-----Mascherano

Ideally replace Pirlo with someone like Veron or Luis Suarez for more mobility

And swap either so Tardelli is on the right and Suarez in particular on the left.

 

[harms]

I'm not sure why you're bringing up Park then or what you are actually suggesting.

It seems clear to me that you were saying that Pirlo is vulnerable to getting pressed on the ball, and you cited his game against Park as an example, and then suggested that Romario and Zico would cause him similar problems in this game.

I said that he doesn't like when someone is around him or next to him - and it was exactly the reason why he was dropped back from the AM position. He excelled there and achieved everything imaginable but he still preferred when there were no opponents in his zone. Never had I said that Zico would follow Pirlo around, disrupting his game like Park did - but his movement would cause trouble for Pirlo anyway and, while I don't think that it's critical, I don't understand why Aldo thought that Pirlo is set to have a great game here, hence my question and this discussion.

 

[Theon]

I said that he doesn't like when someone is around him or next to him - and it was exactly the reason why he was dropped back from the AM position. He excelled there and achieved everything imaginable but he still preferred when there were no opponents in his zone. Never had I said that Zico would follow Pirlo around, disrupting his game like Park did - but his movement would cause trouble for Pirlo anyway and, while I don't think that it's critical, I don't understand why Aldo thought that Pirlo is set to have a great game here, hence my question and this discussion.

Because the midfield set up clearly compliments him I am presuming.

On the rest of it - no player 'likes it' when players are around them or try to press them, that's nothing note worthy. And Pirlo deals with that better the most, that's the bit I don't get in all this - he had a poor game against Park but that's one game, in general he was excellent technically and very difficult to press on the ball. That's certainly my memory of him anyway.

 

[antohan]

Not to mention that Zico scored more free-kicks than any other footballer in history, and I'm not sure that Tuppet's defence will stop Zico/Romario/Charlton/Finney without a foul every time

The flipside to @Gio's argument on the need for a stopper is none of those three (Krol, Blanc and Bossis) are likely to concede free kicks in dangerous areas. Bossis only received four yellows in his entire career!

Zé Roberto will concede some, but they are more crossing than goalscoring set pieces. The midfielders could prove a problem though, so the argument is a good one, just misdirected as far as the culprits are concerned.

Btw, it's interesting, why do you think that Pirlo would be comfortable here, considering that Zico and Romario are running around him? I tend to agree with Physiocrat, move Pirlo from my front two and he'll have a much better game, while Mascherano will disrupt their game in a way Pirlo never would.

In vacuum, it seems like a perfect Pirlo set-up. In this game - not so much, for me, at least

It is the perfect Pirlo setup with the ball. It isn't without it obviously, but nobody would ever pick Pirlo for his contribution without the ball, much like you wouldn't pick Romario or Zico for that purpose.

 

[antohan]

@harms, it's never a good idea to criticise Pirlo with @Theon around

And he is right too, for a change

 

[harms]

@harms, it's never a good idea to criticise Pirlo with @Theon around

And he is right too, for a change

Meh, it's not like he has voted for me ever once as long as I can remember, we pretty much always find ourselves in disagreement

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

This has become too much in my flavour in terms of the formation sheets. Makes the whole team really unbalanced when one guy makes a really fancy formation sheet and the other sticks to the original templates.

 

[antohan]

This has become too much in my flavour in terms of the formation sheets. Makes the whole team really unbalanced when one guy makes a really fancy formation sheet and the other sticks to the original templates.

Neither has a standard template?

And if it gives an advantage fair fecks for the effort in displaying the goods properly.

Much better than back when I was losing finals because people found the use of arrows too contrived/convoluted.

 

[Tuppet]

Been busy for a few hours, I don't really have much to add which is not already discussed, and helpfully answered by other managers. Harms has a pretty good team and I can't really poke any holes in it. Just rehashing some points -

The question of fit are always subjective and Pirlo always seem to get a raw deal in drafts, but to me he is a final worthy player (even in all time drafts) in right set up. There is actually nothing between him and Bozsik in my opinion and the only difference is that he is modern player so scrutinized a bit more. He has won everything there is to be won with this setup. I also have 2 defensive minded midfielders in Vieira and Tardelli to help out in midfield and my midfield should generally screen the defense better IMO.

My attack is just impossible to contain, for all the talk of how my defense would cope with Harms' attack its how Harms' defense would live with my attack which is more pertinent. Messi is just in a different class to anyone on the pitch. Its easy to forget what an absolute get out of jail free card he has been for Barcelona throughout his career, its almost unfair. He raise everyone's game around him I mean in a fairly recent game I watched (don't remember which one exactly) I remember Messi got subbed off and like magic, Suarez game got a notch down, Iniesta and Neymar starting to seem predictable its just crazy. It would probably take a Maldini and Nesta working on him all the time to keep him quite consistently, even then I won't be so sure. Here he is facing an attacking left back, I think he is just going to have a field day.

In some ways its sad that he did not play against likes of Maldini and Baresi, so we can see what exactly they would do against him. But FWIW here is a short clip of Messi playing against Nesta, Cannavaro & Carlos -


As for long range threats, Ronaldo is as good as any on them -

 

[harms]

If you're talking about Messi vs Nesta, you should also remember this:


And the fact that this is Nesta way past his peak.

To write Brehme off as "an attacking left back" is ridiculous - in fact, there was already a very strange comment about Brehme (an all-time great fullback) being a weak link like Ze Roberto is The man had won everything, and his undeniable attacking talents were as important to his career as were his defensive qualities.

 

[Tuppet]

If you're talking about Messi vs Nesta, you should also remember this:


And the fact that this is Nesta way past his peak.

To write Brehme off as "an attacking left back" is ridiculous - in fact, there was already a very strange comment about Brehme (an all-time great fullback) being a weak link like Ze Roberto is The man had won everything, and his undeniable attacking talents were as important to his career as were his defensive qualities.

I am not sure whats ridiculous about that ? is he not an attacking left back ? he is a very good left back, I was just pointing out his attacking tendencies against someone like Messi would be dangerous and a Maldini type defender would be much better.

As for that Nesta video, thats kind of my point, great defenders would try their best but it should be remembered that Messi actually ran the show in that game, laying out the assist for Pedro in the first game, while laying out 2 assists and scoring a goal in the second one. You just don't contain Messi.

 

[harms]

I am not sure whats ridiculous about that ? is he not an attacking left back ? he is a very good left back, I was just pointing out his attacking tendencies against someone like Messi would be dangerous and a Maldini type defender would be much better.

Well, you said that he was an attacking fullback, so Messi would have a field day - despite Brehme being brilliant defensively and the cover from Nesta/Rijkaard/Charlton, you simplified him to a label

 

[Gio]

The question of fit are always subjective and Pirlo always seem to get a raw deal in drafts, but to me he is a final worthy player (even in all time drafts) in right set up. There is actually nothing between him and Bozsik in my opinion and the only difference is that he is modern player so scrutinized a bit more. He has won everything there is to be won with this setup. I also have 2 defensive minded midfielders in Vieira and Tardelli to help out in midfield and my midfield should generally screen the defense better IMO.

Agree with this - reckon he's a little under-appreciated in the all-time stakes. The Euros draft where @Raees and I managed to get Pirlo at turn 9 was mental: he was undoubtedly the star of Euro 2012. Excellent in 2006 too and his club performance portfolio stacks up with the majority of the top boys.

Same for the midfield trio - that works and was the right choice. The strength of the defence is on the ball and you want someone who can amplify those qualities in midfield. I think the teamsheet suggests Pirlo is anchoring off the ball, but in practice I'd imagine it as a three or a two-and-one pressing. Zico getting space inbetween the lines will be a major issue, but again much depends on how Vieira and Tardelli set up.

 

[Tuppet]

Well, you said that he was an attacking fullback, so Messi would have a field day - despite Brehme being brilliant defensively and the cover from Nesta/Rijkaard/Charlton, you simplified him to a label

Well it was not my intent to reduce him to a label. And I do think Messi would have a field day. Brehme can not really show his defensive qualities when he is also attacking and providing width etc. A long ball from Pirlo or Blanc while counter attacking and Brehme is on the attacking side could be devastating. Messi is just a different class to anyone on the field and even if you stop him with so many players it would only free more space for Cruyff and Ronaldo.

 

[Tuppet]

I think the teamsheet suggests Pirlo is anchoring off the ball, but in practice I'd imagine it as a three or a two-and-one pressing. Zico getting space inbetween the lines will be a major issue, but again much depends on how Vieira and Tardelli set up.

I was concerned that it would be represented as Pirlo is the DM against the illustrious attacking midfielders Harms sport, which is why I put this in bold in OP -

It is obvious but still making it explicit that he is not the sole defensive midfielder who is facing the opposition number 10. He would do his bit but most of the defending in the midfield would be done by all 3 as a unit.

 

[Raees]

Agree with this - reckon he's a little under-appreciated in the all-time stakes. The Euros draft where @Raees and I managed to get Pirlo at turn 9 was mental: he was undoubtedly the star of Euro 2012. Excellent in 2006 too and his club performance portfolio stacks up with the majority of the top boys.

Same for the midfield trio - that works and was the right choice. The strength of the defence is on the ball and you want someone who can amplify those qualities in midfield. I think the teamsheet suggests Pirlo is anchoring off the ball, but in practice I'd imagine it as a three or a two-and-one pressing. Zico getting space inbetween the lines will be a major issue, but again much depends on how Vieira and Tardelli set up.

Don't remind me of that draft.

 

[Tuppet]

Johan Cruyff - Awarded the second greatest player of century by IFFHS and as Der Kaiser said almost certainly the best footballer Europe produced. He is playing in his best position and with his heir apparent in Messi, there is no defense that can stop him from taking the game by scruff of neck and turn it on its head.

Its easy to overlook how absolutely amazing Cruyff was at the peak of his powers. Cruyff was the leader, whether in the white and red of Ajax or the orange of Holland. When he picked up the ball and paused briefly to lull an opponent before launching an instant sprint, he changed the dynamic of the whole game in a split-second. Messi, his heir as Barcelona’s creative focus, has the same quality today. But no one except, perhaps, Di Stefano, not even Messi had Cruyff’s range of skills and his ability to redirect the course of a contest. Defenders turned grey chasing vainly after him.

He has faced some of the best defenders in the world and come on top. Case in point here he is taking on a defense of Beckenbauer, Schwarzenbeck, Hansen and Breitner backed by Sepp Maier and Ajax absolutely destroyed them.


or check out the artful mastery Messi displayed while facing the defensive duo of Nesta & Thiago Silva -


Which is my point, its nigh impossible to contain forwards like Messi and Cruyff and Ronaldo. No matter what the defense is, they would just run through you. Cruyff and Messi's electric dribbling is something that cannot be contained by having a good defense. You need may be Inter 2010 or Mourinho's Chelsea like defensive strategy with elite defenders.

 

[antohan]

Agree with this - reckon he's a little under-appreciated in the all-time stakes. The Euros draft where @Raees and I managed to get Pirlo at turn 9 was mental: he was undoubtedly the star of Euro 2012. Excellent in 2006 too and his club performance portfolio stacks up with the majority of the top boys.

Surprised this even needs to be stated. He is up there, without a shadow of a doubt.

I always thought (wrongly, it seems) that him not getting sufficient draft kudos had more to do with the specific setup required and taking up the DM slot with someone who isn'tone.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Interesting match. I think both sides are balanced and no player really conflicts on either side. Don't see any issues with Cruyff and Messi or Pirlo in this setup and Charlton looks great in that role.

Harms has an asymmetric formation going on but with flexibility and Tuppet threatens from both sides but inevitably plays a bit narrow, not that I consider either a bad thing.

I'll have to think about what this guy would think about the match:

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This has become too much in my flavour in terms of the formation sheets. Makes the whole team really unbalanced when one guy makes a really fancy formation sheet and the other sticks to the original templates.

Thats most of the fun for me. Playing around with my teamsheet in photoshop all draft and trying to visualize. If any opponent feels thats unfair I'l make them a teamsheet with the same care spent on jersey and numbers as my own teamsheet. Or do something like Tuppet and Antohan have done with the silhouettes as I can do that effect with any player in 30 seconds. No need to wait for that website. I have fun doing this mate

Very sad @harms benched this one though

 

[Moby]

Very sad @harms benched this one though

Yeah. For Hierro?

 

[harms]

Very sad @harms benched this one though

Yeah, it was a tough decision, but in the end I went with the player I know in detail. With these games, where everything matters, it's better to know your player a little better than I do Domingos.

 

[Balu]

It is the perfect Pirlo setup with the ball. It isn't without it obviously, but nobody would ever pick Pirlo for his contribution without the ball, much like you wouldn't pick Romario or Zico for that purpose.

Not convinced about that. It looks like that on paper, but I personally always thought that Pirlo needs to dictate the game to really excel and prefers to play with an AM who's more a runner/very direct player rather than a true playmaker. Kaka the obvious example of course, but also Totti's rather reduced role for Italy compared to his influence at Roma. I think that is a huge difference from Pirlo to other playmaking CMs like Bozsik or Xavi, who were still crazy influential when they just kept the game ticking and let others run the main creative show.

I personally can't see Pirlo doing that well in a total football set-up with Cruyff directing the play in attack. He's required to do a lot more off the ball work in possession than he's used to. I happily accept if many disagree though.