LV Monopoly draft - QF1: Pat vs Skizzahnomoss

[oneniltothearsenal]

No issues with you voting for Skizzo/Annah as hey have a fantastic team of course but what do you feel Giggs and Julinho offer that Dzajic and Johnsone don't? Dzajic and Johnstone can do pretty much everything you'd want from a pair of wingers IMO. Incredible dribbling and crossing of course, and between them capable of hurting the opposition from all areas, with Dzajic's knack of taking up good scoring positions in the box and Johnstone's ability to drive at defences from deep:

Spoiler

I'll say it might be bit of personal preference but I think Giggs and Julinho are a bit more unpredictable in what they would do in this match against their opposing players. I do think Johnstone could get joy against Lahm but then Schwarzenbeck is there to cover. For Dzajic, from the 68 Euro final where Burgnich did a superb job against him (part of what convinced to pick Burgnich myself) I can see Bergomi having the same ability to restrict Dzajic influence on the game.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No issues with you voting for Skizzo/Annah as hey have a fantastic team of course but what do you feel Giggs and Julinho offer that Dzajic and Johnsone don't? Dzajic and Johnstone can do pretty much everything you'd want from a pair of wingers IMO. Incredible dribbling and crossing of course, and between them capable of hurting the opposition from all areas, with Dzajic's knack of taking up good scoring positions in the box and Johnstone's ability to drive at defences from deep:

Spoiler

I think Dzajic is the best winger on the pitch with Giggs, Julinho and Johnstone being of similar quality trailing not far behind. Giggs of course would be my first choice for a left midfield role of the bunch. Dzajic however faces the defensively best full back on the pitch in Bergomi so both wings are as even as it gets. You've put together a great team!

 

[harms]

I'll say it might be bit of personal preference but I think Giggs and Julinho are a bit more unpredictable in what they would do in this match against their opposing players. I do think Johnstone could get joy against Lahm but then Schwarzenbeck is there to cover. For Dzajic, from the 68 Euro final where Burgnich did a superb job against him (part of what convinced to pick Burgnich myself) I can see Bergomi having the same ability to restrict Dzajic influence on the game.

You do know that Dzajic had a great game against Italy in the first final, scoring, and was amazing throughout the tournament, carrying very average Yugoslavian side to the final basically on his own and the second final was played only 2 days later, with Italy changing half of the team and introducing the likes of Mazzola and Riva while Yugoslavians put up the same tired XI?

It's definitely not a game that you should be judging Dzajic by. Literally every other game in Euros, 1968 and 1976, was better to his actual level and I'm pretty sure that he also scored in all of them.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I think Dzajic is the best winger on the pitch with Giggs, Julinho and Johnstone being of similar quality trailing not far behind. Giggs of course would be my first choice for a left midfield role of the bunch. Dzajic however faces the defensively best full back on the pitch in Bergomi so both wings are as even as it gets. You've put together a great team!

Cheers Annah, you too mate!

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You do know that Dzajic had a great game against Italy in the first final, scoring, and was amazing throughout the tournament, carrying very average Yugoslavian side to the final basically on his own and the second final was played only 2 days later, with Italy changing half of the team and introducing the likes of Mazzola and Riva while Yugoslavians put up the same tired XI?

It's definitely not a game that you should be judging Dzajic by. Literally every other game in Euros, 1968 and 1976, was better to his actual level and I'm pretty sure that he also scored in all of them.

Fair point, but I am also taking into account he is up against Bergomi who is a superb at timing and positional play limiting opportunity supported by Beckenbauer and Neeskens on that side. Also taking into account Julinho. I just don't see that side as giving Pat the advantage. I can appreciate if you or anyone else does however.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Fair point, but I am also taking into account he is up against Bergomi who is a superb at timing and positional play limiting opportunity supported by Beckenbauer and Neeskens on that side. Also taking into account Julinho. I just don't see that side as giving Pat the advantage. I can appreciate if you or anyone else does however.

Great points. I think for the role he's used in here, the one he thrived in - he's the best ever. I watched Vogts games and compared to Bergomis and I must say that as a psuedo CB/RB he is the best the game has produced. Bergomi and Schwarzenbeck are monsters defensively and will be the pair staying back when the team moves forwards. Schwarzenbeck happily went out left to deal with danger and did so at the highest level and Bergomi of course did the same on the other side.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

He is sitting deep, soaking and hitting on the break. There's no one individual player getting dragged around by Maradona. That would be a rather pointless effort if I may add, peak Maradona wasn't a player you could just stick someone on. You would have to trust the defensive unit to keep it tight (I do) and when they fail to prevent danger that the keeper will respond (and I trust Dasayev to do it).

@Pat_Mustard makes a very valid point re: Courtois, in such a finely balanced game he would very likely end up being the difference that separates the two teams.

Cheers Anto. The thought of sticking Matthaus on Maradona did briefly cross my mind but it would have been an awful decision. He's more than capable of playing his part in the team effort against Maradona while still imposing his own game on proceedings, as he did here:



and here:



He actually had a very good record against Maradona's Napoli while playing for Inter, winning 3, drawing 2 and losing 1, and scoring 3 goals in against Mardona's 1 in those 6 games.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Great points Pat! But I think the major difference is that he often had more offensive freedom for Inter, with a tucked back Bergomi and two midfielders with him, where one is dedicated to the defense. Rather than as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 who is also up against one of the biggest challenges you could be up against. With Maradona lurking behind him, the man who needs no space to start a dribbling run towards goal and Beckenbauer who will make the decision on who to mark further more complicated. Especially when the box to box pairing of Neeskens and Netto are already hard to handle alone if they were a midfield two without support.

Nobody doubts that Matthäus would do his role perfectly, but Dzajic, Johnstone, Rivaldo and Falcao also have to do their defensive jobs perfectly for the team effort to be successful. With Beckenbauer moving in to the midfield it becomes a nightmare for Falcao and Matthäus on who to mark or which passing lane to cut off. Neeskens was nearly as good as Matthäus in terms of bombing forward and Maradona would have space on the left and right side of the central midfield pairing as the wingers simply wouldn't defend in such a tight unit as a left and right sided midfielder would.

 

[harms]

The thought of sticking Matthaus on Maradona did briefly cross my mind but it would have been an awful decision. He's more than capable of playing his part in the team effort against Maradona while still imposing his own game on proceedings, as he did here:

That's a good point and playing like you do is certainly better than to stick Matthaus on Maradona personally but I still have a few doubts - will Matthaus be able to stamp the authority on the game where his role is tactically limited? Same goes for Falcao.

They are arguably two of your best players (it's hard to choose though, with Figueroa etc) and instead of letting them free you ask them to seep deep and soak pressure, while Dzajic/Johnstone/Rivaldo won't help defensively at all and your fullbacks (great pairing but I wouldn't call them amazing defensively) are not up to the task if you want to shut down all the doors completely. Even though Figueroa-Maldini-Dasayev is very close to perfection, you limit your midfielders too much - another body in midfield or a third CB would do this side wonders, imo (especially since I don't really see Rivaldo shining here)

 

[Ecstatic]

In a previous draft, I had Maradona and decided to acquire Matthaus at a high price to avoid the debate Maradona vs Matthaus

2 great teams. I will explain my vote later.

 

[Ecstatic]

Great contributions from the 2 managers.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Pat_Mustard is it alright if I repost this and delete it from the other page? It seemed to slip through the cracks, maybe it didn't but there were some great quotes I hadn't seen before myself on Beckenbauer.

Would just to focus on the way that Maradona and Beckenbauer would gel together. Personally when we got Beckenbauer I thought that Maradona would be the ideal GOAT team mate for him. He wouldn't perform sort of a similar role like Di Stefano or Cruyff while Maradona provides something extraordinary in the offense. He also doesn't need great through balls behind the defense or in space, and Beckenbauer is a master of simplistic but perfect passing.

Beckenbauer made things look easy. Too easy. But those closer to him understood that his imperious game was built on a strong work ethic. He grew up as the son of a postal worker in Giesing, one of Munich's poorest and most-bombed quarters after the war. He spent days on end hitting a ball against a wall in the backyard. "That wall was the most honest teammate," he explained later. "If you played a proper pass, you'd get it back properly." To this day, no one has played more proper passes than Beckenbauer in the history of football.

“Every pass of his has eyes and finds his teammates, everywhere.” — Vladislav Bogicevic (Beckenbauer’s teammate)

“He was the puppet master, standing back and pulling the strings which earned West Germany and Bayern Munich every major prize.” — Keir Radnedge,

“Very graceful, great on the ball and a great reader of the game. He could also play in midfield and in defence, but for me his best position is as the ‘libero’ at the back,bringing the ball out and linking defence with midfield. He was a great leader too, a positive influence in the dressing room.” — Ossie Ardiles

“He was a leader of men, a dominant presence who could bring the ball out with grace and skill. But I tell you this: he broke my heart. As an eight-year-old, I watched the 1974 World Cup Final between West Germany and Holland and I was supporting the Dutch. I cried my eyes out when they lost. I was very sad, but now I understand all about the brilliance of the Kaiser.” — Eric Cantona

“Franz was a marvelous distributor of the ball, a great tackler, he always had control of a situation and he never panicked. [ . . . ] (He was) extremely cool and never looked like (he was) at full stretch. Such a hard player to play against.” “The most important thing he had was a fantastic vision.” — Sir Bobby Charlton

“No one ever got past Franz.” — Gerd Muller

Together with the Argie

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard is it alright if I repost this and delete it from the other page?

Sure mate, no problem.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Sure mate, no problem.

Cheers mate. Did you see this one by the way if you didn't notice. We included it to get a mental advantage but I am starting to feel bad and have to come clean and admit it's fake. Do you want us to take it down?

 

[Gio]

A couple of points on the discussion. Re Maradona clearly a massive threat in a complementary set up (in the same way that Beckenbauer is which deserves plenty of credit for the managers). Don't think the way to play against him is necessarily a dedicated marker. Diego was that good that approach usually didn't work. But operating zonally and staying compact are two important principles in dealing with such a threat. I remember the debate ahead of the Euro 2000 final when Zidane was in legend-creating form. Zoff was encouraged to use a man marker, but didn't, operated on those principles and Zidane had his poorest game of the tournament. So what Pat has done seems sensible.

With regards to the debate over the four wingers, I'd rate Dzajic as the standout of the four.

 

[Annahnomoss]

A couple of points on the discussion. Re Maradona clearly a massive threat in a complementary set up (in the same way that Beckenbauer is which deserves plenty of credit for the managers). Don't think the way to play against him is necessarily a dedicated marker. Diego was that good that approach usually didn't work. But operating zonally and staying compact are two important principles in dealing with such a threat. I remember the debate ahead of the Euro 2000 final when Zidane was in legend-creating form. Zoff was encouraged to use a man marker, but didn't, operated on those principles and Zidane had his poorest game of the tournament. So what Pat has done seems sensible.

With regards to the debate over the four wingers, I'd rate Dzajic as the standout of the four.

I agree with all that. You want a team that together can deal with the threat and Matthäus could do his job to an excellent level. However Rivaldo, Dzajic, Johnstone and arguably Falcao aren't suited to type of play. The two wingers simply wouldn't shut down the space next to the central midfielders like a right and left sided midfielder would in a 4-4-2 and Rivaldo is ill suited to impact Beckenbauers game at all as he was neither great defensively or had great pressing.

Resulting in Maradona being able to find pockets of space in the number 10 role or on the sides of the central midfielders with great passing coming from Neeskens/Netto/Beckenbauer as well who on their own would find space enough to provide decisive plays. If he had a wide left and right midfielder instead like Beckham/Giggs then they'd have formed a unit that all helped each other shrink the space available as a team.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers mate. Did you see this one by the way if you didn't notice. We included it to get a mental advantage but I am starting to feel bad and have to come clean and admit it's fake. Do you want us to take it down?

In light of this shocking disclosure i feel i should be awarded a win via disqualification @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Went for Skizzoanaho atm. I still don't really like Lahm in Breitner's role; I don't think Lahm on the left can offer what Breitner did. But that spine is just too solid IMO. In a dogfight, I think Skizzoanaho has advantage with more versatile players and the two best players on the pitch in Maradona and Beckenbauer. I think I read that Maradona always had tremendous respect for Kaiser and would have liked to play with him. I just see that spine as too strong supported by Neeskens and Netto for Falcao and Matthaus. I don't think this match favors Rivaldo and can see him going invisible with these tactics.

I think S/A flanks are more unpredictable offering a wider range of threat with Giggs and Julinho whereas Dzajic and Johnstone seem a little more predictable and easier for someone like Bergomi to manage efficiently.

You need to watch more of johnstone , there's a good clip of him from the 1967 champions league final where burgnich follows him all over the pitch , with johnstone making him and others look a bit stupid at times. He is far from predictable.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

In a hurry here and on my crock of shite phone so sorry for not addressing much of what has been said so far, but i'll shamelessly reiterate two points from my OP instead.

Seeler's record against the oppo's centre backs is excellent, with 4 goals in 7 games between 1965 and 1969. With a drastic upgrade in the quality of service he'll receive here, hes as likely a goalscorer as anyone on the pitch.

Secondly, Courtois is the weakest player on the pitch and decidedly out of place at this stage in an all time draft.

Finally, a question rather than a criticism. Is Leonidas a good fit at centre forward to bring the best out of Maradona? I was expecting Suarez to play, and his constant foraging and relentless pressure would have made him a good fit imo.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Cheers mate. Did you see this one by the way if you didn't notice. We included it to get a mental advantage but I am starting to feel bad and have to come clean and admit it's fake. Do you want us to take it down?

Lol I thought it was obvious it's fake

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

You need to watch more of johnstone , there's a good clip of him from the 1967 champions league final where burgnich follows him all over the pitch , with johnstone making him and others look a bit stupid at times. He is far from predictable.

I already mentioned i can see johnstone getting some joy but overall i just dont see that offense as consistent against the defense here as the opponents. Just my opinion. If you see him as a consistent game changer here then fair enough. I just think the other attack will get the better of that defense more often than the reverse.

- Ive been watching the first half of that 66-67 Euro Cup final. Very interesting tactically. It looks like Celtic had Johnstone and Lennox in almost free roles moving into the center or swapping flanks a lot. Burgnich and Facchetti swap flanks earlier than I would expect. It looks like Burgnich starts out defending against Johnstone on the left the first 10 minutes then switches to the right flank after that. ill have to watch the second half tomorrow. Good recommendation for a match cheers!

 

[Annahnomoss]

Great game mate! A bit slow like versus Chester, but again I didn't want to rant on when you weren't available.

 

[Annahnomoss]

In a hurry here and on my crock of shite phone so sorry for not addressing much of what has been said so far, but i'll shamelessly reiterate two points from my OP instead.

Seeler's record against the oppo's centre backs is excellent, with 4 goals in 7 games between 1965 and 1969. With a drastic upgrade in the quality of service he'll receive here, hes as likely a goalscorer as anyone on the pitch.

Secondly, Courtois is the weakest player on the pitch and decidedly out of place at this stage in an all time draft.

Finally, a question rather than a criticism. Is Leonidas a good fit at centre forward to bring the best out of Maradona? I was expecting Suarez to play, and his constant foraging and relentless pressure would have made him a good fit imo.

Leonidas was a similar player to Suarez in that regard, hard working and never quit running even without the ball. "Then, Leonidas, living up to his name became a lion in battle, wreaking havoc in the mud on the players from the sunless land. He was tireless in pursuit of the ball, fearless, and constantly on the move. He never conceded defeat."

He does provide a lot more flair and ability though and isn't restricted to being a good goalscorer and tireless worker and he doesn't have the weakness part of Suarez where he stops being a lion and resorts to diving and biting and may lose you a game. Leonidas was an excellent player as well and would be a lot less reliant on Maradona to set it all up on a silver platter and while I can't see Suarez creating anything against GOATs I am sure Leonidas could.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Well the backstabbing to total and complete now. Congrats @Skizzo @Annahnomoss !


Hardluck @Pat_Mustard .

 

[Skizzo]

Hard luck @Pat_Mustard! That spine of your team was monstrous.

 

[antohan]

Who were your subs @Pat_Mustard? I would agree Rivaldo wasn't offering much here and, off the top of my head, I would have rather played Blankenburg between the defensive lines, not on a man-marking mission, but to give Matthäus and Falcao a bit more freedom instead.

 

[harms]

Yeah, someone to unleash Matthäus and Falcão would've been perfect for a counter-attacking set-up

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Great game mate! A bit slow like versus Chester, but again I didn't want to rant on when you weren't available.

Well the backstabbing to total and complete now. Congrats @Skizzo @Annahnomoss !


Hardluck @Pat_Mustard .

Hard luck @Pat_Mustard! That spine of your team was monstrous.

Cheers lads and well played Skizzo and Annah! I enjoyed that, and the voting was closer than I expected. Its a rare match that I'm able to remain somewhat unbiased in, but to be honest I'd have voted for you myself if I was a neutral. Beckenbauer really killed my chances here. I didn't need to dominate possession or anything as I was playing on the counter, but he killed my chances of establishing even the minimum level of control in midfield that I needed to win.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Who were your subs @Pat_Mustard? I would agree Rivaldo wasn't offering much here and, off the top of my head, I would have rather played Blankenburg between the defensive lines, not on a man-marking mission, but to give Matthäus and Falcao a bit more freedom instead.

Oblak, Blankenburg, Alaba, Radamel Falcao and Hazard mate. I never even considered switching from the 4-4-1-1 TBH, which was pretty fecking stupid in retrospect. I did really like the idea of Seeler playing as the souped-up Kluivert to Rivaldo though. Agreed that Rivaldo was pretty ineffectual here after looking one of the likeliest matchwinners in my last match. He was neither a counter-attacking specialist or a heavyweight contributer to the midfield battle so he was kind of missing in action. If I was going to stick with the 4-4-1-1 I'd have loved Di Stefano to even things up in terms of control, or else Eusebio as one of the all-time great menaces on the counter. As it was the only direct upgrade to Rivaldo available to me was Puskas, who wouldn't have been an obvious fit here either.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Cheers lads and well played Skizzo and Annah! I enjoyed that, and the voting was closer than I expected. Its a rare match that I'm able to remain somewhat unbiased in, but to be honest I'd have voted for you myself if I was a neutral. Beckenbauer really killed my chances here. I didn't need to dominate possession or anything as I was playing on the counter, but he killed my chances of establishing even the minimum level of control in midfield that I needed to win.

Cheers mate. It was such a poor match up for you but you deserved all the votes and a close game as well. Matthäus and Falcao would have been such a strength in almost every other scenario but with us getting lucky and picking up Maradona to partner Netto-Neeskens and Beckenbauer it just turned too much. At the end of the day getting lucky draws is as important as drafting and sometimes you just run in to teams that are suited to play you.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Oblak, Blankenburg, Alaba, Radamel Falcao and Hazard mate. I never even considered switching from the 4-4-1-1 TBH, which was pretty fecking stupid in retrospect. I did really like the idea of Seeler playing as the souped-up Kluivert to Rivaldo though. Agreed that Rivaldo was pretty ineffectual here after looking one of the likeliest matchwinners in my last match. He was neither a counter-attacking specialist or a heavyweight contributer to the midfield battle so he was kind of missing in action. If I was going to stick with the 4-4-1-1 I'd have loved Di Stefano to even things up in terms of control, or else Eusebio as one of the all-time great menaces on the counter. As it was the only direct upgrade to Rivaldo available to me was Puskas, who wouldn't have been an obvious fit here either.

I was just hoping for an in depth discussion between Leonidas and Seeler who I think are both quite similar and maybe deserve slightly more shine to their name. I also found it odd that Rivaldo was barely mentioned, I am assuming people saw him up against Beckenbauer and figured it would be a match for Der Keiser. But Rivaldo would peel wide on both sides and try to double up with Dzajic or Johnstone to create something lovely out wide.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I was just hoping for an in depth discussion between Leonidas and Seeler who I think are both quite similar and maybe deserve slightly more shine to their name. I also found it odd that Rivaldo was barely mentioned, I am assuming people saw him up against Beckenbauer and figured it would be a match for Der Keiser. But Rivaldo would peel wide on both sides and try to double up with Dzajic or Johnstone to create something lovely out wide.

If I'd been online more I'd have drummed up the Seeler/Leonidas comparison for sure, as I felt I had the edge in both quality and suitability for the team there. Having said that, if we'd both been arguing all out for the win it would probably have just went round in circles, as its so difficult to prove a point eiher way with the pre-video players.

On Rivaldo, as soon as the match started I saw that he'd have a tough time imposing himself so it wasn't something I would have pursued much anyway. He had Beckenbauer in his natural zone, he wouldn't have seen as much of the ball as he'd have liked and he wasn't a particularly notable counter-attacking player. He was too good and too mobile to be completely anonymous, but it would have been tough for me to argue his case as a match winner here.

 

[antohan]

I was just hoping for an in depth discussion between Leonidas and Seeler who I think are both quite similar and maybe deserve slightly more shine to their name.

I don't see the similarities myself, but maybe it's just an inaccurate take on Leonidas. I find it very hard to imagine a Brazilian striker being similar to a German one.

I also found it odd that Rivaldo was barely mentioned, I am assuming people saw him up against Beckenbauer and figured it would be a match for Der Keiser. But Rivaldo would peel wide on both sides and try to double up with Dzajic or Johnstone to create something lovely out wide.

Rather pointless in a deep counter-attacking setup. You just want those two to pick up the ball and run towards goal with it, not getting into any intricate stuff out wide. Rivaldo wasn't offering anything the two midfielders couldn't if given greater freedom. In fact, they would offer more oomph IMO.