[Dobbs]

As far as I'm concerned, he should be missing the tournament on principle. Even if he's technically fit enough by then, he shouldn't go. He's very young, and has plenty of prospective international tournaments ahead of him. One bad tackle or collision causing a break or fracture to a leg that, yes, maybe could have done with a summer's reinforcement just to make absolutely sure, and the kid's career is over.

Hodgson's opinion counts for nothing. There's a good chance he won't be England manager after this tournament, and he knows it, so he's got no reason to worry about protecting these players' futures. He just wants a successful tournament at any cost.

I don't think it's anything to do with principle. It's really down to biology, if the bone is completely healed why shouldn't he go. If he's healthy then I'd prefer him to get a few competitive games under his belt.

The last thing Shaw needs right now is more time away from competitive football.

 

[Brightonian]

I don't think it's anything to do with principle. It's really down to biology, if the bone is completely healed why shouldn't he go. If he's healthy then I'd prefer him to get a few competitive games under his belt.

The last thing Shaw needs right now is more time away from competitive football.

There's much more to it than just the bone being healed though. He'll have lost muscle mass in that leg, so they need to build that back up, and do it properly, otherwise he's vulnerable to another break. Plus any imbalance picked up during his recovery needs to be corrected otherwise he'll be prone to muscle injuries elsewhere. There isn't a simple line you can draw between 'healed' and 'not healed'. It's about how ready you want him to be before he starts playing again.

And your last line is clearly wrong. The last thing Shaw needs right now is another injury, or any problems resulting from not giving the broken leg time to heal. He's missed the season - an extra summer away from football isn't going to hurt him. It's not as if he's still trying to establish himself at the club; he proved once and for all at the start of this season that he should be a no-questions-asked regular in the first XI, and no manager is going to have any doubts that when fit he's first choice.

 

[Dobbs]

There's much more to it than just the bone being healed though. He'll have lost muscle mass in that leg, so they need to build that back up, and do it properly, otherwise he's vulnerable to another break. Plus any imbalance picked up during his recovery needs to be corrected otherwise he'll be prone to muscle injuries elsewhere. There isn't a simple line you can draw between 'healed' and 'not healed'. It's about how ready you want him to be before he starts playing again.

And your last line is clearly wrong. The last thing Shaw needs right now is another injury, or any problems resulting from not giving the broken leg time to heal. He's missed the season - an extra summer away from football isn't going to hurt him. It's not as if he's still trying to establish himself at the club; he proved once and for all at the start of this season that he should be a no-questions-asked regular in the first XI, and no manager is going to have any doubts that when fit he's first choice.

Right but if all those boxes have been ticked, if the bone has healed and the muscle rebuilt why not play? What's the point in not playing IF healthy based on some kind of principle.

Your whole assumption is that he's not ready and will get injured. If qualified medics say he's ready then let's start getting him match fit.

A pre season with us won't do that given how inadequate they now are.

 

[Brightonian]

Right but if all those boxes have been ticked, if the bone has healed and the muscle rebuilt why not play? What's the point in not playing IF healthy based on some kind of principle.

Your whole assumption is that he's not ready and will get injured. If qualified medics say he's ready then let's start getting him match fit.

A pre season with us won't do that given how inadequate they now are.

You're missing the point. There is no objective point where he's suddenly 'healthy'. It's subjective. One qualified medic might say he's ready one day, another might say he needs another couple of weeks before it's safe. My point is that Hodgson will inevitably be willing to risk Shaw much earlier than, say, Van Gaal. But if we're talking about what's in Shaw's best interests, he'd be better off erring towards a more cautious timescale, because missing one tournament so early in his career isn't going to hurt him but another injury now would massively feck him over.

As for pre-season, pretty much every player who's ever mentioned it in an interview has said that it's as crucial as anything else a player does in defining how their season goes. That 'when I've got a full pre-season under my belt' cliché didn't come out of nothing. International tournaments don't bring match fitness. They're stop-start, high-stress, involve as much travelling as playing, and aren't really anything like a league season. You don't go to a Euros to get match fit for the upcoming season any more than you'd prepare for a marathon by playing a couple of games of tennis.

 

[Dobbs]

You're missing the point. There is no objective point where he's suddenly 'healthy'. It's subjective. One expert might say he's ready one day, another might say he needs another couple of weeks before it's safe. My point is that Roy will inevitably be willing to risk Shaw much earlier than, say, Van Gaal. But if we're talking about what's in Shaw's best interests, he'd be better off erring towards a more cautious timescale, because missing one tournament so early in his career isn't going to hurt him but another injury now would massively feck him over.

If the medical people at United and England say he's fit then you go with their advice. That's what we employ them for.

Extending his time away from competitive football by another two months for no real reason other than fear will only cause more rustiness.

A United pre season consists of about 5 games. Last year most of the players didn't even get 90mins. The training was sub standard, fitted in around flights and commercial activities. If that's all he has after 9 months out its guaranteed he won't be ready for the beginning of the new season.

Where as he could be getting proper competition training with England and competitive games. He'll then be ready for us.

Don't forget it's possible he'll have a couple of months training with us before he even joins up with England.

 

[Damien]

If the medical people at United and England say he's fit then you go with their advice. That's what we employ them for.

Extending his time away from competitive football by another two months for no real reason other than fear will only cause more rustiness.

A United pre season consists of about 5 games. Last year most of the players didn't even get 90mins. The training was sub standard, fitted in around flights and commercial activities. If that's all he has after 9 months out its guaranteed he won't be ready for the beginning of the new season.

Where as he could be getting proper competition training with England and competitive games. He'll then be ready for us.

Don't forget it's possible he'll have a couple of months training with us before he even joins up with England.

And this season the tour is 2 games so there'll be less football for him.

 

[Brightonian]

If the medical people at United and England say he's fit then you go with their advice.

This is what I mean. You seriously think their assessments are going to match up? I doubt it. England's medics will want to be able to tell Hodgson he can go. United's will be as cautious as possible, knowing the club has no particular reason to rush him back. So when he's in that subjective zone where he probably could go but he also could take a bit longer and reduce the risk of injury, they're unlikely to agree.

And again, you're just giving your opinion of pre-season, apparently based on how many games we play. Those games aren't really about preparation any more, they're about the fanbase and the income and the brand. The important work of pre-season happens on the training pitch, and the players and coaches - the people whose opinions are actually relevant - are unanimous in saying that a good, full pre-season is crucial to having a good start to the season.

 

[Dobbs]

And this season the tour is 2 games so there'll be less football for him.

Isn't that just in China? It wouldn't surprise me though. I remember last year they were landing somewhere at 10pm and then training just to fit it in. If you compare it to the pre seasons of smaller clubs you realise how inadequate ours are.

That won't be sufficient for Shaw to get into match shape.

 

[Dobbs]

This is what I mean. You seriously think their assessments are going to match up? I doubt it. England's medics will want to be able to tell Hodgson he can go. United's will be as cautious as possible, knowing the club has no particular reason to rush him back. So when he's in that subjective zone where he probably could go but he also could take a bit longer and reduce the risk of injury, they're unlikely to agree.

And again, you're just giving your opinion of pre-season, apparently based on how many games we play. Those games aren't really about preparation any more, they're about the fanbase and the income and the brand. The important work of pre-season happens on the training pitch, and the players and coaches - the people whose opinions are actually relevant - are unanimous in saying that a good, full pre-season is crucial to having a good start to the season.

Why do you doubt their assessments will match up? Its science not art. Take it back a step then, if just United's medics say he's fit why shouldn't he go? Can you imagine telling him that despite being physically ready he's not going because of "principle." What a wasted opportunity to get fit and take part in an international tournament it would be.

Everybody agrees on a good pre season being crucial. So get MUTV and watch ours. You'll see just how compromised the training is.

 

[Damien]

Isn't that just in China? It wouldn't surprise me though. I remember last year they were landing somewhere at 10pm and then training just to fit it in. If you compare it to the pre seasons of smaller clubs you realise how inadequate ours are.

That won't be sufficient for Shaw to get into match shape.

Yeah, we'll most likely have a game at OT too but still not much of a preseason.

 

[Damien]

Rooney's testimonial is before the season starts too I think, and that'll be against Everton with the regular teams playing against each other.

 

[Dobbs]

Yeah, we'll most likely have a game at OT too but still not much of a preseason.

Yeah its not enough for most players but especially for Shaw. If his first competitive game is beginning of next season that'll be 11 months out. During that period all he'd have had is a handful of slow, poor standard pre season games. Probably only one or two full games. There's no way he'll be anywhere near match fit for 2016/17.

Hence me wanting him to go with England if declared fit to do so.

 

[Sandikan]

Unless he can play a couple of games for us before the end of the season it'd be bonkers to think about Euro 2016.

You don't just sit out 9months, train for a couple of weeks and go to the big tournaments.

If he's fit, but not ready, what could be more sensible then letting him have another 3months proper pre season to get even more certain

 

[Nighteyes]

It's a no brainer. If he's fit he should go to the Euros. He's missed more than enough games since joining us.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Haha all these caf 'medical experts' saying he should miss the euros, if he's fit play the lad I'm sure he's eager to get back. No need to rush him but the medical team know what they are doing and won't do anything stupid that could harm him long term. I expect him to be back playing for us anyway before the seasons out.

 

[Brightonian]

Unless he can play a couple of games for us before the end of the season it'd be bonkers to think about Euro 2016.

You don't just sit out 9months, train for a couple of weeks and go to the big tournaments.

If he's fit, but not ready, what could be more sensible then letting him have another 3months proper pre season to get even more certain

Exactly. Can't believe any United fan thinks otherwise.

'He's missed a whole fecking season for us but sure, let's let him go and play three games in another dispiriting England campaign. Fingers crossed rushing him back doesn't feck up his entire career before it's even started, eh? After all, how else will he possibly get match fit?'

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Exactly. Can't believe any United fan thinks otherwise.

'He's missed a whole fecking season for us but sure, let's let him go and play three games in another dispiriting England campaign. Fingers crossed rushing him back doesn't feck up his entire career before it's even started, eh? After all, how else will he possibly get match fit?'

Do you have any knowledge at all of how long a leg break takes to recover from? He's due back next month and honestly I'd be surprised if he didn't play the last few games of our season as well as trading for months. If he's ready he's ready, I don't get how people can't understand that.

 

[Brightonian]

Yeah its not enough for most players but especially for Shaw. If his first competitive game is beginning of next season that'll be 11 months out. During that period all he'd have had is a handful of slow, poor standard pre season games. Probably only one or two full games. There's no way he'll be anywhere near match fit for 2016/17.

You've completely ignored the fact that the season when Shaw went to a tournament with England he turned up not fit enough for United and took a while to get going as a result. Whereas the season when Shaw didn't go to a tournament he used a personal trainer to get absolutely razor-edge fit and exploded into form straight away, played every game for us and was our second best player (after Smalling) right up until his injury.

There's this thing called training. I know you don't get to watch it on MUTV but it does actually happen. Quite a lot of it, during pre-season. Some might say it's a more useful tool for pre-season fitness than three or four disappointing England games.

 

[Brightonian]

Do you have any knowledge at all of how long a leg break takes to recover from? He's due back next month and honestly I'd be surprised if he didn't play the last few games of our season as well as trading for months. If he's ready he's ready, I don't get how people can't understand that.

Read my original post. I'm not saying he shouldn't go, just that he shouldn't go if he's not managed to come back and play for United before the end of the season, and that it should be United's medical team whose opinion counts, not Hodgson and England's medics, who are inevitably biased towards the short-term advantages of having Shaw available in France.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Read my original post. I'm not saying he shouldn't go, just that he shouldn't go if he's not managed to come back and play for United before the end of the season, and that it should be United's medical team whose opinion counts, not Hodgson and England's medics, who are inevitably biased towards the short-term advantages of having Shaw available in France.

Well fair enough I'm inclined to agree because we both know it's in his best interests not to be rushed back in any way. I'm not sure I agree about the Engkand medical team tho, they are not stupid and I don't think they will be looking short term. England has plenty of LB cover so they know there is no need to rush him back. I'm sure they have his best intentions at heart because they know he could be England left back for the next 10 years.

 

[Red_toad]

Exactly. Can't believe any United fan thinks otherwise.

'He's missed a whole fecking season for us but sure, let's let him go and play three games in another dispiriting England campaign. Fingers crossed rushing him back doesn't feck up his entire career before it's even started, eh? After all, how else will he possibly get match fit?'

Pretty sure his injury was this season? In addition to him possibly being fit for the end of the season.

 

[Sandikan]

It's like people have spent too much time playing football manager or something, and ignore the other times we've rushed players back for tournaments. Invariably they're crap at best, and ruck themselves up further at worst. Falcao being the best example of the latter. (though not necessarily our player at the time)

 

[Damien]

Shaw wouldn't really be rushed back though. When he got the injury in mid September, March/April time was always mooted as his return and everything indicates he's doing well and on schedule.

Different to Rooney's injury in 2006 when he fractured a metatarsal at the end of April and was definitely rushed back for that World Cup.

 

[TwoSheds]

Shaw wouldn't really be rushed back though. When he got the injury in mid September, March/April time was always mooted as his return and everything indicates he's doing well and on schedule.

Different to Rooney's injury in 2006 when he fractured a metatarsal at the end of April and was definitely rushed back for that World Cup.

True, but let's see how he does if / when he comes back for United. No point taking him if he's still rusty. The Euros is not the place to be trying to build up match fitness.

 

[Dobbs]

As far as I'm concerned, he should be missing the tournament on principle. Even if he's technically fit enough by then, he shouldn't go.

Read my original post. I'm not saying he shouldn't go.

Ok then.

You've completely ignored the fact that the season when Shaw went to a tournament with England he turned up not fit enough for United and took a while to get going as a result. Whereas the season when Shaw didn't go to a tournament he used a personal trainer to get absolutely razor-edge fit and exploded into form straight away, played every game for us and was our second best player (after Smalling) right up until his injury.

There's this thing called training. I know you don't get to watch it on MUTV but it does actually happen. Quite a lot of it, during pre-season. Some might say it's a more useful tool for pre-season fitness than three or four disappointing England games.

How do you know his last tournament caused the following seasons injuries? On what medical basis are you claiming this.

You're right he started this season great after a regular pre season. The whole point of this conversation though is that this time he'll have been out for 9 months. He's in a completely different postion to last summer which makes your comparison pointless.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

 

[Trizy]

Shaw

 

[Revan]

I really hope that United and England are not crazy enough to play Shaw now or to take him to Euros. He should get all the needed time to heal properly and then start playing in preseason.

 

[Dobbs]

I really hope that United and England are not crazy enough to play Shaw now or to take him to Euros. He should get all the needed time to heal properly and then start playing in preseason.

I've banged on about this already but we've only got three pre season games. It's highly unlikely he'll get 90mins in all of them as everybody will need game time. On top of that LvG has said training will be poor due to the China humidity.

It's going to be a miracle if Shaw is anywhere near fit for the new season. I really dislike these corporate pre seasons.

 

[lifted]

I've banged on about this already but we've only got three pre season games. It's highly unlikely he'll get 90mins in all of them as everybody will need game time. On top of that LvG has said training will be poor due to the China humidity.

It's going to be a miracle if Shaw is anywhere near fit for the new season. I really dislike these corporate pre seasons.

I assume there will be lots of closed door pre season games.

 

[Dobbs]

I assume there will be lots of closed door pre season games.

Can't say I recall that happening before. Even if we do who are the opposition? What's the standard?

 

[ZupZup]

I hope he is back on the pitch playing as soon as possible. If that means a game or two at the end of the season and potentially sneaking his way into the England squad for the Euros, even better!

 

[El Zoido]

I can't wait to hear the reception he gets when he comes on, hopefully he'll return at Old Trafford towards the end of the season.

 

[Sandikan]

It's a stepping stone progression. Join training for non contact, do some light contact, join the proper sessions, play a training game, have a walk around in the reserves (U21s)...

and only then think about easing him into the first team.

I dare say we've not got time to allow this full routine this season. At most, if there's nothing on game week 38, I'd give him a short sub appearance v Bournemouth. Just to give him a feel of involvement again, and really give him incentive for the summer break.

 

[MadDogg]

At most, if there's nothing on game week 38, I'd give him a short sub appearance v Bournemouth. Just to give him a feel of involvement again, and really give him incentive for the summer break.

Yep, that's what I'm hoping for. 20 minutes or so in the last game, just to get him out there in the action again so hopefully he can go into the pre-season in a good frame of mind.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Can't say I recall that happening before. Even if we do who are the opposition? What's the standard?

Didn't Rooney play in one whilst the rest of the squad were in the far east one time? I'm sure it was during the "angry and confused" period.

Edit: He did, along with Vidic and Hernandez. No idea what the standard was like though.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...nited-beat-Betis-3-0-behind-closed-doors.html

 

[limerickcitykid]

Didn't Rooney play in one whilst the rest of the squad were in the far east one time? I'm sure it was during the "angry and confused" period.

Edit: He did, along with Vidic and Hernandez. No idea what the standard was like though.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...nited-beat-Betis-3-0-behind-closed-doors.html

That is just an u21 pre-season game. If Luke Shaw is on the tour then he wouldn't able to play in games like that.

Based on the picture the starting XI for that match was:
Johnstone
Vermijl - Keane - Vidic - Blackett
Cole - Petrucci - Charni - Nani
Hernandez - Rooney

 

[thegregster]

I've banged on about this already but we've only got three pre season games. It's highly unlikely he'll get 90mins in all of them as everybody will need game time. On top of that LvG has said training will be poor due to the China humidity.

It's going to be a miracle if Shaw is anywhere near fit for the new season. I really dislike these corporate pre seasons.

Presumably a few more will be added.

We play Dortmund on the 22nd July.
We play City on the 25th July.
Then on 3rd Aug-Rooneys testimonial.

The PL doesn't start till the 13th August. So we could easily add another two games.

 

[Dobbs]

Presumably a few more will be added.

We play Dortmund on the 22nd July.
We play City on the 25th July.
Then on 3rd Aug-Rooneys testimonial.

The PL doesn't start till the 13th August. So we could easily add another two games.

Can't see us fitting two games into those ten days personally. With the potential for injuries so close to the beginning of the season I think LvG would rather train.

 

[dwd]

Can't see us fitting two games into those ten days personally. With the potential for injuries so close to the beginning of the season I think LvG would rather train.

subtle wum