Lukaku : Bulking up with muscle hurt me

[adexkola]

That's an exaggeration, plenty of people have never rated Lukaku and didn't want to see the club sign him. He has demonstrated the flaws that people have issue with, now he is still a good goalscorer and a good player but people will question whether he is the answer to our long term strike force. It has nothing to do with scapegoating.

What attacking players do we have (apart from Pogba) that come without flaws, or can definitely be categorized as "the answer to our long term strike force"?

 

[JPRouve]

What attacking players do we have (apart from Pogba) that come without flaws, or can definitely be categorized as "the answer to our long term strike force"?

What is the point of that question? Did someone suggest that we definitely had the answers, did someone suggest that no one else had flaws?

 

[sullydnl]

That's an exaggeration, plenty of people have never rated Lukaku and didn't want to see the club sign him. He has demonstrated the flaws that people have issue with, now he is still a good goalscorer and a good player but people will question whether he is the answer to our long term strike force. It has nothing to do with scapegoating.

A large, large amount of the criticim he has recieved this season has been far less measured (and accurate) than that though. Instead he's been described various as lazy, fat, useless, stupid, arrogant, the worst striker to play for the club etc. In fact I've seen more than one poster argue that they themselves have better technique than Lukaku, in apparent seriousness. Once criticism becomes that detached from common sense then it's hard not to feel that he has just become the caf's current favourite piniata, on top of the legitimate criticism he has earned.

 

[Janson]

A large, large amount of the criticim he has recieved this season has been far less measured (and accurate) than that though. Instead he's been described various as lazy, fat, useless, stupid, arrogant, the worst striker to play for the club etc. In fact I've seen more than one poster argue that they themselves have better technique than Lukaku, in apparent seriousness. Once criticism becomes that detached from common sense then it's hard not to feel that he has just become the caf's current favourite piniata, on top of the legitimate criticism he has earned.

Agree.

 

[Wumminator]

Can’t wait till he proves how good he is for the rest of the season.

 

[JPRouve]

A large, large amount of the criticim he has recieved this season has been far less measured (and accurate) than that though. Instead he's been described various as lazy, fat, useless, stupid, arrogant, the worst striker to play for the club etc. In fact I've seen more than one poster argue that they themselves have better technique than Lukaku, in apparent seriousness. Once criticism becomes that detached from common sense then it's hard not to feel that he has just become the caf's current favourite piniata, on top of the legitimate criticism he has earned.

I get that but generalizing silly statements doesn't allow actual conversations about legitimate issues. I said it several times, I didn't want Lukaku but he is still a decent player while I do think that some are extremely harsh on him the vast majority of people are fair and have issues with his game and how it affects the team even when he is in form.

 

[starman]

I see the comparison that people are comparing him to Fellaini in that he was each individual managers pet project, but Fellaini is the best in the world at what he does. Love him or hate him hes is and has been a amazing plan B.

Lukaku will never be a world class striker. He's doesn't have one attribute to him that when he is in his element he is amoung the best. Maybe the ability to deceive the manager into thinking he's offering the team something with his finger pointing...

I'm sure Solskjaer will give him a chance but if we receive a good offer in January I don't mind never seeing him play a game under him.

 

[JohnnyKills]

If he were playing for a lesser team he could murder people on the counter with his pace and power. Burnley tried to play a high line against us and he obliterated them.

Unfortunately most teams play a deep line against United, so the striker has to play in tight spaces, relying on crosses and ricochets. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be Lukaku's game at all.

 

[adexkola]

What is the point of that question? Did someone suggest that we definitely had the answers, did someone suggest that no one else had flaws?

My point was that apart from his current bad form, I don't understand how he is distinct from our other attackers. Hence my comments about scapegoating.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Does he really? Not doubting you because I don't know. That surprises me though. What are the stats (United only)?

Being a lone centre forward doesn't necessarily mean scoring all of the goals. Both Chelsea and Liverpool's set ups for example rely more on the wide players to score.

For PL/CL this season:
Rashford: 5 goals, 4 assists, 1422 min played, average 158 min/goal or assist, goals alone 284 min

Lukaku: 6 goals, 1 assists, 1569 min played, average 224 min/goal or assist, goals alone 261 min

Martial: 9 goals, 0 assist, 1259 min played, 140 min/goal.

Stats taken from whoscored.

Lukaku isn’t the one creating chances for us, so that argument about him being someone like Drogba who didn’t score a ton but created heaps for the likes of Lamparf doesn’t hold merit. He’s a box striker who is fast on the counter and has always been so.

 

[JPRouve]

My point was that apart from his current bad form, I don't understand how he is distinct from our other attackers. Hence my comments about scapegoating.

You don't see a difference in terms of style/philosophy? Lukaku is a very direct player, he isn't made for one touch, pass and move football while the others are more comfortable with that type of football, it suits them best. The reason Lukaku is singled out is because he is the one that needs to adapt to the rest instead of the rest having to adapt to him. It's best to change one player than 3 or 4.

 

[Greck]

You don't see a difference in terms of style/philosophy? Lukaku is a very direct player, he isn't made for one touch, pass and move football while the others are more comfortable with that type of football, it suits them best. The reason Lukaku is singled out is because he is the one that needs to adapt to the rest instead of the rest having to adapt to him. It's best to change one player than 3 or 4.

With all the men we commit forward under Ole the last thing we’re going to need is Lukaku committing turnovers because of poor control. Unless ole can somehow utilize him as a poacher who doesn’t need to be heavily involved in the buildup I can only predict him to be an awkward fit in a short passing one-touch attack

 

[JPRouve]

With all the men we commit forward under Ole the last thing we’re going to need is Lukaku committing turnovers because of poor control. Unless ole can somehow utilize him as a poacher who doesn’t need to be heavily involved in the buildup I can only predict him to be an awkward fit in a short passing one-touch attack

With confidence and work on timing, he could be great in that type of set up. We will see what happens in the next 5 months.

 

[MadDogg]

A large, large amount of the criticim he has recieved this season has been far less measured (and accurate) than that though. Instead he's been described various as lazy, fat, useless, stupid, arrogant, the worst striker to play for the club etc. In fact I've seen more than one poster argue that they themselves have better technique than Lukaku, in apparent seriousness. Once criticism becomes that detached from common sense then it's hard not to feel that he has just become the caf's current favourite piniata, on top of the legitimate criticism he has earned.

To be fair, at least a couple of those are accurate if we are only talking about his performances this season. I honestly think he's probably been the worst regular starter in the entire premier league this season.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I wish I would accidently put on too much muscle. Waking up and saying a feck honey, I overdid it a bit on these killer abs and huge pecs, make me some waffles with cream and a stack of pancakes.

Quite frankly I don't think it's muscle, more like lard. He looks out of shape, and it looks like he's been visiting Greggs rather than the gym.

 

[POF]

For PL/CL this season:
Rashford: 5 goals, 4 assists, 1422 min played, average 158 min/goal or assist, goals alone 284 min

Lukaku: 6 goals, 1 assists, 1569 min played, average 224 min/goal or assist, goals alone 261 min

Martial: 9 goals, 0 assist, 1259 min played, 140 min/goal.

Stats taken from whoscored.

Lukaku isn’t the one creating chances for us, so that argument about him being someone like Drogba who didn’t score a ton but created heaps for the likes of Lamparf doesn’t hold merit. He’s a box striker who is fast on the counter and has always been so.

That's not what you said though, is it? You said both Rashford and Martial had better records for United. If you included their entire United records are Rashford/Martial's records still better?

There are not many classical goal scoring centre forwards around these days. Last season, Lukaku showed he can do it for United. My worry with dumping him is how easy/costly will it be to replace that fire power? It is extremely risky to rely too heavily on young players like Martial and Rashford.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

That's not what you said though, is it? You said both Rashford and Martial had better records for United. If you included their entire United records are Rashford/Martial's records still better?

There are not many classical goal scoring centre forwards around these days. Last season, Lukaku showed he can do it for United. My worry with dumping him is how easy/costly will it be to replace that fire power? It is extremely risky to rely too heavily on young players like Martial and Rashford.

Reliance is exactly the issue. Play and rely on Lukuku is fine if he scores, and when he doesn't score he adds nothing, it's like playing with 10 men. Rashford and Martial create chances for other players and cause issues for the opposition whether they score or not.

We all hoped that Lukuku would evolve and step up upon moving to Utd, which he's failed to do. He will always score a few goals, but his return is not good enough for a sole striker at Utd.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

That's not what you said though, is it? You said both Rashford and Martial had better records for United. If you included their entire United records are Rashford/Martial's records still better?

There are not many classical goal scoring centre forwards around these days. Last season, Lukaku showed he can do it for United. My worry with dumping him is how easy/costly will it be to replace that fire power? It is extremely risky to rely too heavily on young players like Martial and Rashford.

Across their Utd career, goal per min only, PL+CL:

Lukaku: 5142 min played, 27 goals, 190.5 min per goal.

Rashford: 7035 min played, 29 goals, 242.5 min per goal (this included his EL stats in 15/16 and 16/17 instead of UCL. If you want I can do a separate calculation based on EPL alone). I also fecked up the initial calculation for previous post, Rashford only played 1322 min combined in PL+CL this season, so his gpm works out to 264 min vs 261 min for Lukaku, still slightly lower, but there’s no ‘far better scoring record’.

Martial: 8602 min played, 38 goals, 226 min per goal (stats also include EL in 15/16 and 16/17).

So, yeah. Based on this season alone, Lukaku is equal to Rashford and worse than Martial solely on goal per min. Throughout their respective Utd career to date, he’s the best, but still very underwhelming for a sole striker (slightly under 1 goal per 2 games, as is my original contention. Respectable number for a 90s/early 00s centre forward, not now). When you also take into considersation the assist stats, his statistical edge against the other two vanished (which would be fair, since they spent most of their times on the wings, and him solely as striker).

In short, Lukaku has simply not been the answer to our offensive problem the way many people envisioned it. He performed adequately last season, still with huge question marks all over his general play, it’s impact on the team and his record against the top teams. This season, everything plummeted. My personal contention is that we’d have been much better off the last 2 years buying a good right winger/no.10 and develop Martial/Rashford in the striker role, despite not rating Rashford that highly myself. Going forward, either Lukaku improves his general play to a decent level while maintaining his striking record similar to 17/18 level, or improves his striking record to closer to 1 goal per game, or get sold. We can’t carry a player with non-exceptional scoring record and huge flaws in his game if we expect to seriously compete.

 

[POF]

Across their Utd career, goal per min only, PL+CL:

Lukaku: 5142 min played, 27 goals, 190.5 min per goal.

Rashford: 7035 min played, 29 goals, 242.5 min per goal (this included his EL stats in 15/16 and 16/17 instead of UCL. If you want I can do a separate calculation based on EPL alone). I also fecked up the initial calculation for previous post, Rashford only played 1322 min combined in PL+CL this season, so his gpm works out to 264 min vs 261 min for Lukaku, still slightly lower, but there’s no ‘far better scoring record’.

Martial: 8602 min played, 38 goals, 226 min per goal (stats also include EL in 15/16 and 16/17).

So, yeah. Based on this season alone, Lukaku is equal to Rashford and worse than Martial solely on goal per min. Throughout their respective Utd career to date, he’s the best, but still very underwhelming for a sole striker (slightly under 1 goal per 2 games, as is my original contention. Respectable number for a 90s/early 00s centre forward, not now). When you also take into considersation the assist stats, his statistical edge against the other two vanished (which would be fair, since they spent most of their times on the wings, and him solely as striker).

In short, Lukaku has simply not been the answer to our offensive problem the way many people envisioned it. He performed adequately last season, still with huge question marks all over his general play, it’s impact on the team and his record against the top teams. This season, everything plummeted. My personal contention is that we’d have been much better off the last 2 years buying a good right winger/no.10 and develop Martial/Rashford in the striker role, despite not rating Rashford that highly myself. Going forward, either Lukaku improves his general play to a decent level while maintaining his striking record similar to 17/18 level, or improves his striking record to closer to 1 goal per game, or get sold. We can’t carry a player with non-exceptional scoring record and huge flaws in his game if we expect to seriously compete.

I absolutely agree that he has been really poor this season and if his form continues at that level then his future at United should be questioned.

My issue is that he has the ability to be a top class powerhouse centre forward and a very different style striker than anyone else at the club. He's an excellent finisher and has great pace. Yet, he is being completely written off by most United fans as not good enough, despite his form dropping off while the team has been in turmoil.

Every other player in the squad seems to have their form explained by being ruined by Mourinho. Yet, Lukaku isn't afforded that privilege.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Every other player in the squad seems to have their form explained by being ruined by Mourinho. Yet, Lukaku isn't afforded that privilege.

I don’t think this is especially true. Take our defense for example, all of the central defenders have been derided long before Mourinho came here, at various points in their Utd career. There are plenty of cries for a right back to replace Young/Valencia and Shaw was heavily criticised during his first season under LvG as well. Mata is seen as past it (nothing to do with Mourinho) and Herrera the same, ditto Matic (the only criticism remotely pertaining to Mourinho was that he played him too much in the 2nd half of last season and his form nosedived as a result, while this season I don’t see much of at all of similar sentiment).

The only high profile cases in our team of players being ruined by Mourinho are Martial and Pogba, and I’m sure you’ve read all the arguments for and against that. As for Lukaku, he doesn’t get the leeway (mostly, since there are plenty of his defenders saying he wasn’t utilized correctly by Mourinho, and those voice only from this season) because a) he’s the teacher’s pet by his own admission, and has the privilege of staying in the team through bad patches and b) he had similar diabolical period last season, only nowhere near as long.

 

[Monkers]

Pretty much what happened to Depay, He bulked up so much in that year before joining United. At lyon he had an interview and said that he was working on losing some of his muscles.

 

[Zarlak]

That's dealing with criticism by attacking the person who put forth the criticism instead of replying to the criticism. Does not reflect well on Lukaku. Why shift focus to Paul Scholes legitimacy if the criticism is unfounded?

He didn't shift focus to anything, he just stated a fact. This person who criticises me behind my back is nice to my face and doesn't offer it up to me themselves, so make of that what you will etc.

 

[POF]

I don’t think this is especially true. Take our defense for example, all of the central defenders have been derided long before Mourinho came here, at various points in their Utd career. There are plenty of cries for a right back to replace Young/Valencia and Shaw was heavily criticised during his first season under LvG as well. Mata is seen as past it (nothing to do with Mourinho) and Herrera the same, ditto Matic (the only criticism remotely pertaining to Mourinho was that he played him too much in the 2nd half of last season and his form nosedived as a result, while this season I don’t see much of at all of similar sentiment).

The only high profile cases in our team of players being ruined by Mourinho are Martial and Pogba, and I’m sure you’ve read all the arguments for and against that. As for Lukaku, he doesn’t get the leeway (mostly, since there are plenty of his defenders saying he wasn’t utilized correctly by Mourinho, and those voice only from this season) because a) he’s the teacher’s pet by his own admission, and has the privilege of staying in the team through bad patches and b) he had similar diabolical period last season, only nowhere near as long.

Exactly.

 

[Im red2]

He is simply not good enough for us.

 

[Im red2]

We do not need a big lump of muscle, we need a fast agile player up front.

 

[POF]

We do not need a big lump of muscle, we need a fast agile player up front.

How did United get the breakthrough against Huddersfield? Having a physical presence and power in the air can be extremely useful in getting a breakthrough vs a parked bus. All attacks need variety and options.

In the Fergie era, how many key goals did Vidic, Ronaldo and even Evra score from set pieces that were absolutely crucial in breaking teams down. Or to put it another way, in United's 2 Champions League final wins under Fergie, all of the goals were either from a corner or a header from a cross.

 

[Dante]

I don’t think this is especially true. Take our defense for example, all of the central defenders have been derided long before Mourinho came here, at various points in their Utd career. There are plenty of cries for a right back to replace Young/Valencia and Shaw was heavily criticised during his first season under LvG as well. Mata is seen as past it (nothing to do with Mourinho) and Herrera the same, ditto Matic (the only criticism remotely pertaining to Mourinho was that he played him too much in the 2nd half of last season and his form nosedived as a result, while this season I don’t see much of at all of similar sentiment).

The only high profile cases in our team of players being ruined by Mourinho are Martial and Pogba, and I’m sure you’ve read all the arguments for and against that. As for Lukaku, he doesn’t get the leeway (mostly, since there are plenty of his defenders saying he wasn’t utilized correctly by Mourinho, and those voice only from this season) because a) he’s the teacher’s pet by his own admission, and has the privilege of staying in the team through bad patches and b) he had similar diabolical period last season, only nowhere near as long.

So he deserves to be pilloried because he never stopped trying hard for his manager?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat

Transferring the 'sins' of the manager onto Lukaku and then setting him adrift is almost literally scapegoating the player.

Incidentally, Lukaku got dropped several times in his last few weeks under Mourinho.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

So he deserves to be pilloried because he never stopped trying hard for his manager?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat

Transferring the 'sins' of the manager onto Lukaku and then setting him adrift is almost literally scapegoating the player.

Incidentally, Lukaku got dropped several times in his last few weeks under Mourinho.

The question was that why his bad form can’t be ascribed to Mourinho. If he receives preferential treatment from the manager for the vast majority of his time here while the others frequently got dropped in comparison, then you can’t have that as an argument in favour of him.

There’s definitely an element of people going overboard with the criticisms, but the facts remain that there is a large portion of our fans (including me) who have never wanted him, were against his signing, warned others of his deficiencies, and not satisfied with his first season. This is not some opportunistic character assassination that arose because he’s closely associated to a former manager we dislike.

 

[Dante]

The question was that why his bad form can’t be ascribed to Mourinho. If he receives preferential treatment from the manager for the vast majority of his time here while the others frequently got dropped in comparison, then you can’t have that as an argument in favour of him.

There’s definitely an element of people going overboard with the criticisms, but the facts remain that there is a large portion of our fans (including me) who have never wanted him, were against his signing, warned others of his deficiencies, and not satisfied with his first season. This is not some opportunistic character assassination that arose because he’s closely associated to a former manager we dislike.

If that's your way of admitting you have an agenda and you've been biased against him since the start, then I commend your honesty.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

If that's your way of admitting you have an agenda and you've been biased against him since the start, then I commend your honesty.

What agenda? If you look at my posts history I don’t camp out in the Lukaku’s thread, or any other player under heavy criticisms’s thread at all and constantly berating them after a bad performance. My agenda, if there’s one, is to see Utd successful and playing aesthetically pleasing football, and I’m against signing players who can’t contribute to that end. Mkhitaryan was another one who I very much went against the grain at the time and warned others. Lukaku has played in the PL for 7 years, there were plenty of time to formulate an idea about the player and if his performances at Utd haven’t t done anything to change that perception then it’s not really bias, is it?

 

[Dante]

What agenda? If you look at my posts history I don’t camp out in the Lukaku’s thread, or any other player under heavy criticisms’s thread at all and constantly berating them after a bad performance. My agenda, if there’s one, is to see Utd successful and playing aesthetically pleasing football, and I’m against signing players who can’t contribute to that end. Mkhitaryan was another one who I very much went against the grain at the time and warned others. Lukaku has played in the PL for 7 years, there were plenty of time to formulate an idea about the player and if his performances at Utd haven’t t done anything to change that perception then it’s not really bias, is it?

The agenda of:

a large portion of our fans (including me) who have never wanted him, were against his signing, warned others of his deficiencies, and not satisfied with his first season. This is not some opportunistic character assassination that arose because he’s closely associated to a former manager we dislike.

You've just admitted it wasn't an opportunistic character assassination, but a long held opinion that you're bringing up now that you have a particular axe to grind.

Agenda.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The agenda of:

a large portion of our fans (including me) who have never wanted him, were against his signing, warned others of his deficiencies, and not satisfied with his first season. This is not some opportunistic character assassination that arose because he’s closely associated to a former manager we dislike.

You've just admitted it wasn't an opportunistic character assassination, but a long held opinion that you're bringing up now that you have a particular axe to grind.

Agenda.

It’s a bizarre way of looking at it. So you watch football and don’t formulate an opinion at all about any player? Do I have an agenda against Ronaldo when I said he were wasteful in his early years? Do I have an agenda when I said Messi is the best player I’ve ever seen, despite not supporting Barca and very much enjoyed the success Ronaldo brought us?

I think you have to reconsider how you use words like agenda and bias. I wanted Mourinho here, I was wrong. I didn’t want Lukaku here, so far I was/am right, and would be happy to admit my mistake if I turn out to be wrong. If that’s an agenda and bias-driven, so be it.

 

[CA_vampire]

The agenda of:

a large portion of our fans (including me) who have never wanted him, were against his signing, warned others of his deficiencies, and not satisfied with his first season. This is not some opportunistic character assassination that arose because he’s closely associated to a former manager we dislike.

You've just admitted it wasn't an opportunistic character assassination, but a long held opinion that you're bringing up now that you have a particular axe to grind.

Agenda.

This is not "an agenda". This is called " an opinion".