Congratulations! If you’ll get lucky in reinforcements (depending on the format), you can probably even challenge the big 2. Beautiful team.Also my first draft win (yay)
Ludo Draft R1: Zlatan vs Himannv
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
What's the big two?
You and onenil/Invictus.What's the big two?
*flutters eyelashes* This regular hyping my team up for no reason only for people to see the match threads and be disappointed and going on to vote for the 'less talked about team which actually is great' is a bit of a brutal tactic.
Thanks harms.
I enjoyed putting this team together, I’m happy with it for a change
To be fair, I am not very knowledgeable of his Leverkusen days as well, but don't agree with the characterization/dismissal of the Samuel/Lucio partnership as it was in a Mourinho setup. I'd say most of the best teams in the last 3 decades have sported such partnerships and they work for a reason.
The last bit I bolded from your quote, yea I'd not disagree with that. My only problem is Hierro is not the answer to that based on what I have seen[/USER]
Also my first draft win (yay
Congratulations. I'd be scared to face that lot, so the next one might be just around the corner.
You have a front 4 of Müller, Pelé, Best and Džajić, ffs*flutters eyelashes* This regular hyping my team up for no reason only for people to see the match threads and be disappointed and going on to vote for the 'less talked about team which actually is great' is a bit of a brutal tactic.
Wow that scoreline is harsh. I didn't vote because I thought this was the closest R1 match and it could easily go either way. I never expected the score to be not even close.
Same, I thought it’d be really close when I first seen the thread, especially when the focus went to mvb and Bergkamp against my weaker defence.
Whenever I’ve drafted I’ve lost apart from this one and I always bemoan the lack of comments and reasons for why I took such an hiding.
Same goes for when I win now too I suppose has it will always help with draft knowledge and going into next round. A one line throw away comment would do.
@Himannv
First of all, thanks for answering! I took it in, but in the end Zlatan's setup was still more convincing to me overall. I didn't reply because I fell into my self-created Lucio rabbithole. No question your team would have a good chance to win, if that match actually happened; trying to assess games based on team sheets is fun, but completely arbitrary.
---------- [deeper down the hole, one last time]
To recapitulate the discussion a bit: It started with statements that Lucio didn't have the traits of a pure stopper and resembled Hierro too much. I disagreed on both counts, and that was my main point. On pure defensive terms, Lucio was pretty much the definition of a physically imposing stopper to me. Some illustrative quotes about his defending style & efficiency, two from his Leverkusen days, one right after his move to Inter:
In my assessment, in any 'classic' partnership Lucio would clearly be the muscle, while someone else would have to be the brains. I'm still not sure why Hierro shouldn't be that player, especially since Lucio's pace and dynamism can compensate for a relative lack thereof on his partner's side (like it was with Nowotny). Did Hierro have an undisciplined/erratic side to himself as well? That would be the only reason I can think of, unless someone can point me towards another.
It's similar with Lucio's Brazil career: His partners (like Edmilson, Roque Junior, Juan, Luisao (afaik), Thiago Silva) were usually more modern & well-rounded types of centre backs. Like Casemiro today, Lucio was rather atypical for a Brazilian elite level player, but he was simply very good at what he did, world class in his prime.
Which brings me once more to the question about his top level - here's Kicker's assessments of his club + WC career during his time in Germany (as compiled by Bigsoccer legend Gregoriak):
To put this in perspective: Kicker was very reluctant in handing out the world class label during the 2000s (which included the nadir of German football). More than that, Lucio's 3 WC assessments were the only times a centre back finished in that category between Jürgen Kohler in 1997 and Mats Hummels in 2014.
German wiki on this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangliste_des_deutschen_Fußballs/2000er
I'm actually not a huge fan of Lucio's game myself, but I think his quality has been a bit underrated in discussions here (which imo happens with many players below the all-timers threshold, sometimes even with some above it).
First of all, thanks for answering! I took it in, but in the end Zlatan's setup was still more convincing to me overall. I didn't reply because I fell into my self-created Lucio rabbithole. No question your team would have a good chance to win, if that match actually happened; trying to assess games based on team sheets is fun, but completely arbitrary.
---------- [deeper down the hole, one last time]
I wasn't meaning to outright dismiss it, but I find it difficult to compare in the 'perfect partner' discussion, as it seemed to have different requirements towards its CBs (at least in the handful of games I saw). An additional reason is that Lucio was past his prime at that point imo, even if he was excellent in 2010.
To recapitulate the discussion a bit: It started with statements that Lucio didn't have the traits of a pure stopper and resembled Hierro too much. I disagreed on both counts, and that was my main point. On pure defensive terms, Lucio was pretty much the definition of a physically imposing stopper to me. Some illustrative quotes about his defending style & efficiency, two from his Leverkusen days, one right after his move to Inter:
In my assessment, in any 'classic' partnership Lucio would clearly be the muscle, while someone else would have to be the brains. I'm still not sure why Hierro shouldn't be that player, especially since Lucio's pace and dynamism can compensate for a relative lack thereof on his partner's side (like it was with Nowotny). Did Hierro have an undisciplined/erratic side to himself as well? That would be the only reason I can think of, unless someone can point me towards another.
It's similar with Lucio's Brazil career: His partners (like Edmilson, Roque Junior, Juan, Luisao (afaik), Thiago Silva) were usually more modern & well-rounded types of centre backs. Like Casemiro today, Lucio was rather atypical for a Brazilian elite level player, but he was simply very good at what he did, world class in his prime.
Which brings me once more to the question about his top level - here's Kicker's assessments of his club + WC career during his time in Germany (as compiled by Bigsoccer legend Gregoriak):
LÚCIO da Silva Ferreira
World class: 3 times
International class: 6 times
Broad circle: 5 times
Considered: 1 time
2001 Internat. Cl. [07/01] [#1 Defender]
2001 World Class [12/01] [#1 Central Defender]
2002 World Class [07/02] [#1 Central Defender]
2002 broad circle [12/02] [#8 Central Defender]
2003 not considered [07/03]
2003 Internat. Cl. [12/03] [#3 Central Defender]
2004 Internat. Cl. [07/04] [#1 Central Defender]
2004 broad circle [12/04] [#6 Central Defender]
2005 Internat. Cl. [07/05] [#1 Central Defender]
2005 World Class [12/05] [#1 Central Defender]
2006 Internat. Cl. [07/06] [#1 Central Defender]
2006 not considered [12/06]
2007 considered [07/07] [Central Defender]
2007 Internat. Cl. [12/07] [#3 Central Defender]
2008 broad circle [07/08] [#6 Central Defender]
2008 broad circle [12/08] [#3 Central Defender]
2009 broad circle [07/09] [#3 Central Defender]
2009 played abroad [12/09]
World class: 3 times
International class: 6 times
Broad circle: 5 times
Considered: 1 time
2001 Internat. Cl. [07/01] [#1 Defender]
2001 World Class [12/01] [#1 Central Defender]
2002 World Class [07/02] [#1 Central Defender]
2002 broad circle [12/02] [#8 Central Defender]
2003 not considered [07/03]
2003 Internat. Cl. [12/03] [#3 Central Defender]
2004 Internat. Cl. [07/04] [#1 Central Defender]
2004 broad circle [12/04] [#6 Central Defender]
2005 Internat. Cl. [07/05] [#1 Central Defender]
2005 World Class [12/05] [#1 Central Defender]
2006 Internat. Cl. [07/06] [#1 Central Defender]
2006 not considered [12/06]
2007 considered [07/07] [Central Defender]
2007 Internat. Cl. [12/07] [#3 Central Defender]
2008 broad circle [07/08] [#6 Central Defender]
2008 broad circle [12/08] [#3 Central Defender]
2009 broad circle [07/09] [#3 Central Defender]
2009 played abroad [12/09]
To put this in perspective: Kicker was very reluctant in handing out the world class label during the 2000s (which included the nadir of German football). More than that, Lucio's 3 WC assessments were the only times a centre back finished in that category between Jürgen Kohler in 1997 and Mats Hummels in 2014.
German wiki on this:
I think this becomes quite clear when scrolling through the rankings:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangliste_des_deutschen_Fußballs/2000er
I'm actually not a huge fan of Lucio's game myself, but I think his quality has been a bit underrated in discussions here (which imo happens with many players below the all-timers threshold, sometimes even with some above it).
Last edited:
I'd agree with @Synco that Lucio was more of a stopper — just an uncharacteristic one as stoppers rarely do those forward runs that he was famous for. Out of the greats I'd probably compare him with Passarella, who was also not a classic sweeper/libero for me.
Lucio and Hierro still doesn't seem like a perfect partnership for me because one of them will have to be more conservative in the build up, which limits them.
Lucio and Hierro still doesn't seem like a perfect partnership for me because one of them will have to be more conservative in the build up, which limits them.
It raises the question: Who would be a perfect partner for Lucio? Depending on a specific team setup, of course. I don't find him an easy player to accommodate, at least when the premise is seamless interaction. Some kind of compromise has to be made, imo.
I certainly wouldn't want him to be the primary build up player from deep, especially in an attacking side like @Zlatan 7's, where central defense has increased playmaking duties to allow the team to push up high.
Someone like Nesta probably. Or Figueroa.
A pure stopper is not the same as 'more of a stopper' with libero tendencies.
Anyone who has watched Lucio would say he was an hybrid of both but not purely one which is what I was trying to say.
To pair him with a similar hybrid combination player is always tough to pull off unless of course you have GOATs in Nesta/Figueroa.
Great posts @Synco amd thanks for the taking the time to write them.
After seeing the further conversation between you and others in at a total loss to who could play along side lucio in the next round.
I find it crazy that the only two defenders suggested he could play with due to his style are two Goats.
After seeing the further conversation between you and others in at a total loss to who could play along side lucio in the next round.
I find it crazy that the only two defenders suggested he could play with due to his style are two Goats.
They're definitely not the only two who can play with him, we're talking about ideal partners, which means that we're choosing from GOATs first.
I think Ferdinand or Vidic would be a good partner too
Would agree with this. Lucio was hybrid in this sense a no nonsense defender along with having attacking tendacies leaving the defensive lines.
Yeah fair enough.
Rio also liked to carry the ball forward so I’d say he’d also be questioned as a Lúcio partner
Hey @GodShaveTheQueen
I think some misunderstandings crept into the discussion. Just to be clear: I don't think Lucio is a downright "pure stopper" in the sense you seem to make out in your last post. So what you *seem* to get out of my posts is not really what I wanted to say about the player, or how I understood the frame of the discussion, including your initial statement.
We can try to disentangle that, or we can just settle it by agreeing on Nesta, because everyone can always agree on Nesta. I'm open for both, although this discussion has certainly become a bit expansive already (me being the main culprit).
I think some misunderstandings crept into the discussion. Just to be clear: I don't think Lucio is a downright "pure stopper" in the sense you seem to make out in your last post. So what you *seem* to get out of my posts is not really what I wanted to say about the player, or how I understood the frame of the discussion, including your initial statement.
We can try to disentangle that, or we can just settle it by agreeing on Nesta, because everyone can always agree on Nesta. I'm open for both, although this discussion has certainly become a bit expansive already (me being the main culprit).
I think we hold similar ideas but are putting them in different ways while nitpicking on the minor details.
As I said a million times before, you should play one of these drafts. Definitely a pain in the ass winning an argument against you
Ah shit, and I honestly believe I'm not as bad as I used to be when I joined. Still a long way to go, Synco.I think we hold similar ideas but are putting them in different ways while nitpicking on the minor details.
As I said a million times before, you should play one of these drafts. Definitely a pain in the ass winning an argument against you
So let's settle on Nesta, because Nesta.
I guess as far as taglines go, I got off lightly
Haha
Thanks for the great argument for me
Thanks for the great argument for me
great stuff