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I think you misunderstand my point. I don't see the point in just comparing United or Chelsea's results with Palace in isolation in any event, let alone throwing the likes of Arsenal into the equation for results against Palace. It tells us basically jackshit about the sides other than the fact that both United and Chelsea managed a win by a solitary goal against the same opposition which is meaningless in the overall context of the season. Who cares about one result? It's trivial.
If you are going to make a comparison this early in the season then the only meaningful one is comparing United and Chelsea's result over a wider span of games and Chelsea are going to win every comparison hands down as they are 13 points ahead in the league. It's always going to be unfavourable to us no matter what the sample, that's why I am saying I don't see the point in comparing United to Chelsea.
That's why I raised the point about comparing results with Spurs, Everton, Arsenal, Liverpool who have made a similar starts to us and who we are in competition for the Champions League places. Not Chelsea who are currently building a healthy lead at the top of the league, getting results in big games and regularly beating inferior sides.
Who cares if Palace beat Everton? That's not the point I am making.
Good job I wasn't responding to you then, eh? Don't be so confrontational.
Yep too many players who want to play centrally or in the same positions and all are one paced, there is also an argument that falcao, Rooney and RVP are all past their best, the lack of pace in midfield and up front is a big limitation and one we need to address very quickly. I really do think we may have to be prepared to let as many as three from Rooney, RVP, falcao and mata leave and replace them with players who can add more pace, energy and movement.
As well as a cb and a rb I think a pacey winger is an essential signing, how easily we can get any let alone all three I don't know though. Depay or Fischer maybe could be optins in January and then maybe reus in the summer but that is a long shot
I prefer to look at the players today rather than the manager.
In the same way i never held Moyes 100% to blame for the poor performances, I don't blame LVG today because the team he picked was easily capable of beating Palace. You can argue over should RVP/Fellaini play, or should Herrera/Wilson play instead...but the team that started was good enough on paper to beat Palace.
In the same way i never held Moyes 100% to blame for the poor performances, I don't blame LVG today because the team he picked was easily capable of beating Palace. You can argue over should RVP/Fellaini play, or should Herrera/Wilson play instead...but the team that started was good enough on paper to beat Palace.
No, it's unprofessional to let anyone find out you did it.
I agree with that and in the ideal world you'd force those four to fight for two roles, striker and no.10. I think Di Maria o the left could work if we had consistent and fluid play in the middle alongside a threat on the right, doesn't need to be Reus but someone who is already very good but with the potential to grow further. It's just sad that we don't have enough quality options on the wings to justify dropping the three from Van Persie, Mata, Rooney and Falcao.
If it was up to me I'd play a Blind- Herrera- Carrick midfield to shore things up a bit. I like that Fellaini has fought his way into the reckoning but he is not offering enough on or off the ball. That trio could allow us to be solid in midfield but not at the expense of fluidity.
Could well be an interesting couple of windows I wouldn't be surprised to see 5-7 come in over that time and few more than that leave when you look at all the guys out on loan.
I think the midfield is ok it's just they probably need to play as a three with blind or carrick, di Maria playing on the left and then Herrera or fellaini. But then problem is finding the attacking players to offer us more pace, width and be a bit more dynamic. We just don't have that in the squad now and although I agree it would be good to have all four of the players mentioned fighting for two spots they must be costing at least £800k a week so I don't think we can afford that luxury when we re so short in other areas.
All of our midfielders are currently fit i think, we should be able to play with higher tempo and create more chances. He seems to be happy enough with the performance today, but imo palace parking the bus wasn't our only problem, we were slow doing everything, even though we had the ball most of the game we didn't really know what to do with it much of the time, that's worrying. I took more positives from the city game.
I have complete faith in van Gaal but this kind of reasoning is just excuses. It would be a fair point if his job was simply to pick the right starting XI each week but obviously that's not the case.
He has to pick between Rooney and RVP. Both are getting selected based on their past reputations and it's hardly doing us any good having them both playing doing feck all.
You'd think with both of them plus Mata (and that's excluding Falcao due to injury) we'd see a bit more rotation up front. Something like Mata behind Rooney in the next game? It always seems to be those two as you say. Even if Rooney is the captain, there's nothing to say he has to play as a number 10.
To his credit though, LvG seems set on bringing Wilson into the team as much as possible.
That's just it though, he doesn't!
Just play the diamond and have them both in their best position, could've done that today with ease...
---------------------DDG--------------------
Val---------Mcnair--------Blind-------Shaw
--------------------Carrick------------------
------Fellaini--------------------ADM--------
---------------------Mata--------------------
----------Rooney------------RvP------------
It baffles me. Great result against a stubborn team, but I'm curious as to why he doesn't do this!
I trusted in Moyes for a large part of last season, and I won't be making the same mistake again, last season was transition season, this season CL is a must, and based on what I've seen we are nowhere near good enough right now, even though we've spent over £200million since January 2014. Van Gaal was bought in to hit the ground running and so far he has failed miserably. We just about scrapped a win today and could be as low as 8th in the league tomorrow.
Was that the "Philosophy" he loves blabbing on about today? Because that was pretty much on par with anything we saw last season. We have NOT been better than last season and I have no idea where this illusions has come from. We create absolutely nothing most of the game and mostly just mess about with the ball, mostly passing it back to the defenders and then the keeper, rinse and repeat 20 times. How many times do we actually get in behind or even try to? Did anyone see the gaps we keep leaving in midfield time and time again, game after game? We really need to work on coordinating attacks around the box, because every time we get there, our players look clueless. I really hope we address this in training asap. Lastly RVP was absolute gash today, missed an absolute sitter and put in a shameful selfish performance only looking to benefit himself. If he starts next game while Falcao is fit, then I'm going to start to lose faith in LVG ability to manage this squad.
I still think LVG deserves a little leeway though, the defenders have completely let Louis down so far, It can't be easy when every game we have to field a brand new defence. I'm looking forward to how he addresses this problem in the winter window.
Was that the "Philosophy" he loves blabbing on about today? Because that was pretty much on par with anything we saw last season. We have NOT been better than last season and I have no idea where this illusions has come from. We create absolutely nothing most of the game and mostly just mess about with the ball, mostly passing it back to the defenders and then the keeper, rinse and repeat 20 times. How many times do we actually get in behind or even try to? Did anyone see the gaps we keep leaving in midfield time and time again, game after game? We really need to work on coordinating attacks around the box, because every time we get there, our players look clueless. I really hope we address this in training asap. Lastly RVP was absolute gash today, missed an absolute sitter and put in a shameful selfish performance only looking to benefit himself. If he starts next game while Falcao is fit, then I'm going to start to lose faith in LVG ability to manage this squad.
I still think LVG deserves a little leeway though, the defenders have completely let Louis down so far, It can't be easy when every game we have to field a brand new defence. I'm looking forward to how he addresses this problem in the winter window.
Against QPR they scraped through at home last week, we had more possession and shots on goal than they against QPR, this doesn't mean anything but it does show when a team comes to park the bus then it is difficult to break them down.
Louis van Gaal tends to tire teams out before stepping it up, he touched upon this in the press conference where he said that at half time he told them they will be getting tired and the goal will come.
He felt though the team could have moved the ball quicker and switched play a lot more, he says when the team switches play the opponent is forced to run to the other side, as the game goes on tiredness will cause two or three players losing defensive organisation and so there will always be chances to score.
Chelsea are no different in that they too patiently breakdown opposition that park the bus however often it means they win only by narrow margins.
Palace had one chance caused by miscommunication and to be honest considering the problems we have had defensively, a clean sheet here is a strong positive.
Mata hit the post, Fellaini had a header cleared off the line and Rooney forgot his shooting boots, we easily could have had more and that's by playing much lower than the level we expect to reach.
It wasn't that bad of a game, keep it tight at the back and dominate the ball, just add more clear cut chances.
But is defence the actual problem? To my mind it's a red herring. We've scored only 17 goals in 11 league games. It's not as though we're conceding barrowloads. In most of the games we've created enough chances but simply not taken them.
Take a look at the league table and goal difference and see if Chelsea have played better than us.
It has got to be the latter.
It was very noticeable to day the difference in having Herrera in the side. The ball moves quicker. For all Carrick's sensible play, he didn't half slow it down today.
Van Gaal is the right man. Remember Ferguson was also the wrong man until we won the FA Cup that year. But Fergie had always been a winner. Same as Van Gaal has always been a winner, Winners need a little time to get the thing working as they want it. But they get it working
Think LvG sees the 4-3-3 as the system we need to use with our defensive issues, we certainly have tighten things up at the back in the last 3 games, the diamond against Chelsea, and City could have been a disaster.
The main issue for me is that it has completely halted Di Maria, he is simply far better in the middle and as potentially our best player he needs to be played in his best position, if we are sticking with 4-3-3 could we not just do:
-----------Carrick---------Di Maria-------
Valencia--------- Rooney-------Janujaz
-----------------RvP/Falcao--------------
this in the hope that we get Nani back in January to take over from Valencia.
I think Di Maria could do fine starting wide and being able to tuck in just not how we're doing at the moment where we end up with Blind/Carrick holding, Fellaini, RVP and Rooney on top of each other centrally and then Di Maria/Januzaj isolated out wide. If we had a second player who actually played as a central midfielder and helped bring Di Maria in to good places, create space for him etc then I think he could make a much bigger impact. Same to januzaj. Both need to find some form as well but both aren't being helped by the tactical approach imo.
The role he wants Rooney to play in is simply not suitable for Rooney - Rooney doesn't have the vision or imagination to be a #10 and LVG wants him there. Summer is when the big decisions should be made.
If only! He's played as a CM the last two games!
Ah, so I use the champions in waiting to illustrate that even a team on top form play some of these games like the way we did and also scrape through against the tricky challenge of a team that parks the bus.
Now you are comparing United to Chelsea, I will say this, Mourinho is in his second season, he is experienced in the league from a previous spell and his Chelsea side are used to changes in management, there is no comparison to be made.
My point still stands, even the mighty Ferguson was patient in his breaking down of the opposition, Louis van Gaal was confident he would get the goal and he did then following this there were several chances, on another one of Fellaini's header off the line, Mata hitting the post or Rooney's shot could have gone in.
The performance was not as bad as many on here are making out, if we create plenty of clear cut chances, carving open at will a team that parks the bus, then we would not be in the rebuilding phase, we would be expected to win the championship.
I would assume that LVG's Plan A would be a 4-4-2 diamond:
DDG
Rafael Evans Rojo Shaw
Blind
ADM Herrera
Mata
Rooney Falcao
The fitness issues have completely torpedoed this set-up, so he's using Plan B, C and D. On that basis I think the results are reasonable.
Problem is that we may not see many Plan A set-ups, given the fitness issues with our back 4 and Falcao. I suspect that Herrera will be back soon once his rib injury fully heals.
DDG
Rafael Evans Rojo Shaw
Blind
ADM Herrera
Mata
Rooney Falcao
The fitness issues have completely torpedoed this set-up, so he's using Plan B, C and D. On that basis I think the results are reasonable.
Problem is that we may not see many Plan A set-ups, given the fitness issues with our back 4 and Falcao. I suspect that Herrera will be back soon once his rib injury fully heals.
Van Gaal is the right man. Remember Ferguson was also the wrong man until we won the FA Cup that year. But Fergie had always been a winner. Same as Van Gaal has always been a winner, Winners need a little time to get the thing working as they want it. But they get it working
Well said, already our play is miles better than last season And I have full confidence by end of season we'll be in the top four.
LVG is a born winner and I'm glad we have him.
It was up until the West Brom game. Since then its been turgid, Moyes-eque football.
You have a short memory then my friend.
Last season we were complete shit, no passing, build up play and we were tactically abysmal.
There are real signs this season that we will come good.
I think, up until the West Brom game, we were defiantly heading in the right direction. The defense was obliviously a mess, but we finally had a midfield, were passing the ball well and quickly, looked really good going forward etc etc Since then, meh. Back to the 4-1-4-1 or whatever you want to call it. And its been horrible to watch.
I don't think it's been that bad to watch, you are right in that we slightly regressed from the west brom game but by no means are we worse than last season. Last season was a nightmare.
The only difference between today and something the players cooked up under Moyes last season was the number of points that remained at Old Trafford. Admittedly that's a huge and very important difference, but anyone who thinks we're suddenly playing with purpose and meaning must be wearing a special kind of philosophy contacts.
We are a ways away from playing with real purpose and meaning but I still think we are moving in a very positive direction and by season's end it will pay dividends.
Ps: "philosophy contacts" is funny
Entertainment value and quality of performance aren't the same thing though. We held our own against the two best teams in the league and won the game comfortably today. It not being pretty to watch is a reason to moan but it's not a reason to despair, particularly given the entertainment value on show up until then. If we look back at our best season in the past decade - 07/08 - we had scored 19 league goals after 11 games, just two more than we have right now. The idea that we were always great to watch - or the expectation that we always should be great to watch - is complete bollocks, really.
I hope you're right mate, truly do!We are a ways away from playing with real purpose and meaning but I still think we are moving in a very positive direction and by season's end it will pay dividends.
Ps: "philosophy contacts" is funny
When I was in the newbs I posted that I didn't think Moyes would last the season and some folks didn't like that very much at all.
I feel confident in saying that by the end of the season we will look much better and we should be top 4 as well. I have a lot of faith in LVG and have been a fan of his for over 25 years. He is exactly the type of manager we need right now. If he was hired instead of Moyes I have no doubt we would be challenging for titles on multiple fronts by this time.
Now THAT is a stat!
He's only been a manager for 23 years?
Simples. I think ravi included the years when LVG was a player thinking and acting like a player-trainer--coach.
At least he didnt claim he knew LVG at birth!
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