Lionel Messi

MalcolmTucker said:
Messi also has more goals against the top 6 in the PL than Rooney and RVP despite having never played in PL
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Thought that couldn't be true so I looked it up.

According to transfermarkt:
Rooney:
vs. Arsenal: 35 games / 15 goals
vs. Chelsea: 37 games / 9 goals
vs. City: 31 games / 12 goals
vs. Liverpool: 30 games / 7 goals
vs. Spurs: 22 games / 11 goals
Total: 54 goals.

RVP:
vs. Arsenal: 6 games / 3 goals
vs. Chelsea: 20 games / 7 goals
vs. City: 15 games / 3 goals
vs. Liverpool: 16 games / 7 goals
vs. Spurs: 22 games / 11 goals
vs. United: 15 games / 5 goals
Total: 36 goals.

Messi:
vs. Arsenal: 6 games / 9 goals
vs. Chelsea: 10 games / 3 goals
vs. City: 6 games / 6 goals
vs. Liverpool: 4 games / 2 goals
vs. Spurs: 2 games / 2 goals
vs. United: 6 games / 4 goals
Total: 26 goals.

Am I missing something? He IS the GOAT, and surely has the better goal-per-90-minute-ratio than both RVP and Rooney, but he's not that close to RVP and defo not Wayne, so where did you get those stats? :)
 
Giggs' right foot said:
Thought that couldn't be true so I looked it up.

According to transfermarkt:
Rooney:
vs. Arsenal: 35 games / 15 goals
vs. Chelsea: 37 games / 9 goals
vs. City: 31 games / 12 goals
vs. Liverpool: 30 games / 7 goals
vs. Spurs: 22 games / 11 goals
Total: 54 goals.

RVP:
vs. Arsenal: 6 games / 3 goals
vs. Chelsea: 20 games / 7 goals
vs. City: 15 games / 3 goals
vs. Liverpool: 16 games / 7 goals
vs. Spurs: 22 games / 11 goals
vs. United: 15 games / 5 goals
Total: 36 goals.

Messi:
vs. Arsenal: 6 games / 9 goals
vs. Chelsea: 10 games / 3 goals
vs. City: 6 games / 6 goals
vs. Liverpool: 4 games / 2 goals
vs. Spurs: 2 games / 2 goals
vs. United: 6 games / 4 goals
Total: 26 goals.

Am I missing something? He IS the GOAT, and surely has the better goal-per-90-minute-ratio than both RVP and Rooney, but he's not that close to RVP and defo not Wayne, so where did you get those stats? :)
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I think he took the stat of players who are not retired. Using Rooney and RVP was stupid. Aguero is 1st, I think, vardy 2nd, hazard 3rd, Ronaldo 4th, Messi 5th and Kane 6th.
 
Against top 6

Rooney 155 matches average 0,34 gpm
RVP 94 matches 0,38
Messi 34 matches 0,765

Preety much the average he has on his whole career. I wouldn't call the PL a farmer´s league
 
Heardy said:
It was lighthearted, but IMO i don't think Messi would have had quite the ridiculous stats had he spent 5 years of his career in the Prem compared to La Liga.
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It's all mental conjecture. We wouldn't know. I think one thing that would matter would be the quality of team, he played in. We just know that's he scored plenty against the PL teams in the CL. If you look at awards of la liga topscorers, it rarely went above 30 untill the Messi/Ronaldo era started.
 
Heardy said:
It was lighthearted, but IMO i don't think Messi would have had quite the ridiculous stats had he spent 5 years of his career in the Prem compared to La Liga.
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Agreed, but that's purely a personal opinion, the fact is he's far too comfortable in his comfort zone at Mes Que Un cnut to ever move.
 
Cal? said:
Agreed, but that's purely a personal opinion, the fact is he's far too comfortable in his comfort zone at Mes Que Un cnut to ever move.
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I mean, he stayed in a sinking ship and almost single-handedly brought it up to surface and won an extra balon d or plus more titles so...
 
Giggs' right foot said:
Thought that couldn't be true so I looked it up.

According to transfermarkt:
Rooney:
vs. Arsenal: 35 games / 15 goals
vs. Chelsea: 37 games / 9 goals
vs. City: 31 games / 12 goals
vs. Liverpool: 30 games / 7 goals
vs. Spurs: 22 games / 11 goals
Total: 54 goals.

RVP:
vs. Arsenal: 6 games / 3 goals
vs. Chelsea: 20 games / 7 goals
vs. City: 15 games / 3 goals
vs. Liverpool: 16 games / 7 goals
vs. Spurs: 22 games / 11 goals
vs. United: 15 games / 5 goals
Total: 36 goals.

Messi:
vs. Arsenal: 6 games / 9 goals
vs. Chelsea: 10 games / 3 goals
vs. City: 6 games / 6 goals
vs. Liverpool: 4 games / 2 goals
vs. Spurs: 2 games / 2 goals
vs. United: 6 games / 4 goals
Total: 26 goals.

Am I missing something? He IS the GOAT, and surely has the better goal-per-90-minute-ratio than both RVP and Rooney, but he's not that close to RVP and defo not Wayne, so where did you get those stats? :)
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From here - I remember seeing this but guess I expunged the 2011/12 from the top.
 
Heardy said:
It was lighthearted, but IMO i don't think Messi would have had quite the ridiculous stats had he spent 5 years of his career in the Prem compared to La Liga.
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Just look at Bruno Fernandes.
But, who knows. I know for sure he would've better numbers than Aguero, for example.
 
Shamana said:
It's all mental conjecture. We wouldn't know. I think one thing that would matter would be the quality of team, he played in. We just know that's he scored plenty against the PL teams in the CL. If you look at awards of la liga topscorers, it rarely went above 30 untill the Messi/Ronaldo era started.
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Absolutely. That’s why I asked the question. As far as I can see, there is no evidence whatsoever that he wouldn’t be equally effective in the premier league, so long as he was playing for a strong team (which he obviously would be). PL bias is so funny....
 
NasirTimothy said:
Absolutely. That’s why I asked the question. As far as I can see, there is no evidence whatsoever that he wouldn’t be equally effective in the premier league, so long as he was playing for a strong team (which he obviously would be). PL bias is so funny....
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Yeah, I had to laugh at that as well. In fact, all the evidence seems to point out that he would have had an easy time in the Premier League, if anything. His record against the very elite English teams is incredible, and he'd feast on the many lesser teams.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Absolutely. That’s why I asked the question. As far as I can see, there is no evidence whatsoever that he wouldn’t be equally effective in the premier league, so long as he was playing for a strong team (which he obviously would be). PL bias is so funny....
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Even in our pomp we never managed a goal on cold night in Stoke did we?
 
NasirTimothy said:
Absolutely. That’s why I asked the question. As far as I can see, there is no evidence whatsoever that he wouldn’t be equally effective in the premier league, so long as he was playing for a strong team (which he obviously would be). PL bias is so funny....
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I dont know. There is a reason that there is 6 PL clubs and only 3 spanish clubs in the ESL.
 
Bebestation said:
I dont know. There is a reason that there is 6 PL clubs and only 3 spanish clubs in the ESL.
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Money. That's not to say that the PL isn't currently stronger than La Liga, but what have Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd won lately?
 
Bebestation said:
I dont know. There is a reason that there is 6 PL clubs and only 3 spanish clubs in the ESL.
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When you're making rational points like this one could almost forget that you wished he wouldn't have gotten his medication as a child, effectively disabling him.
 
Shamana said:
Money. That's not to say that the PL isn't currently stronger than La Liga, but what have Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd won lately?
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Well Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd cant win things because of Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea being good and great for a season or two with world class managers and rotate.

Even Leicester have snuck and changed up the league.

So no one is really comparing Arsenal, Spurs and United to the two Madrid and Barcelona- its comparing them and showing the difference in quality of players found in teams like sevilla or real betis vs Spurs or a United or an Arsenal.

La Liga at it's best had two amazing spanish teams and even then one would end up dominating over another over a period- like Pep's Barcelona's period vs Real Madrids time with Zidane.

When you compare it to the PL it's most similar to when SAF was just fighting for a PL with Wenger, good quality football but no where near as hard or competitive environment as the PL is now.

There is City, Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Leicester, Tottenham, Arsenal, that are either fighting for a title or competing for the top 4 purely dependent on what manager is making their decisions. When you look at Everton having a manager like Ancelotti and a player like James Rodriguez - that's a player and manager of Real Madrid 4 years ago hanging around the 8th of the PL. Then you have a manager like Biesla managing a team who is our 9th or 10th in the league. The PL has a possession based team l, a Counter attacking team, a gegenpressing team, a park the bus team and so many more tactics - it's the oozing with diversity.


I mean Messi has got no reason to prove anything to me cos I mean nothing towards him - yet I just wish he wouldn't be suddenly turning loyal to Koeman's average Barcelona like I knew was always going to happen instead of him trying to atleast dominate a season or 2 with another top team in a different league.

Just would have shut up some doubters for good but it just never came along. So it just sucks a bit.

Anyway people can still watch him in La Liga and watch him with the same play style for the next 3 years against the same teams and talk about how amazing he is doing. Giggs was a United Midfielder by the time he was 38 who managed to play there because he understood the league and its tempo to a te after educationally being involved in it for nearly 20 years - would he have done so good in Serie A or Spain for a team that's not United and a country like England? Ultimately it's easy to say yes - but we ultimately dont know.


Just wished Messi shut me up (like some others) and answered my question before he one day ends up retiring. Yet I knew he would always end up staying at Barcelona and La Liga and he wouldnt move to another League if it's not a club in Argentina.

Hears fingers crossing that it somehow changes.
 
Bebestation said:
Well Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd cant win things because of Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea being good and great for a season or two with world class managers and rotate.

Even Leicester have snuck and changed up the league.

So no one is really comparing Arsenal, Spurs and United to the two Madrid and Barcelona- its comparing them and showing the difference in quality of players found in teams like sevilla or real betis vs Spurs or a United or an Arsenal.

La Liga at it's best had two amazing spanish teams and even then one would end up dominating over another over a period- like Pep's Barcelona's period vs Real Madrids time with Zidane.

When you compare it to the PL it's most similar to when SAF was just fighting for a PL with Wenger, good quality football but no where near as hard or competitive environment as the PL is now.

There is City, Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Leicester, Tottenham, Arsenal, that are either fighting for a title or competing for the top 4 purely dependent on what manager is making their decisions. When you look at Everton having a manager like Ancelotti and a player like James Rodriguez - that's a player and manager of Real Madrid 4 years ago hanging around the 8th of the PL. Then you have a manager like Biesla managing a team who is our 9th or 10th in the league. The PL has a possession based team l, a Counter attacking team, a gegenpressing team, a park the bus team and so many more tactics - it's the oozing with diversity.


I mean Messi has got no reason to prove anything to me cos I mean nothing towards him - yet I just wish he wouldn't be suddenly turning loyal to Koeman's average Barcelona like I knew was always going to happen instead of him trying to atleast dominate a season or 2 with another top team in a different league.

Just would have shut up some doubters for good but it just never came along. So it just sucks a bit.

Anyway people can still watch him in La Liga and watch him with the same play style for the next 3 years against the same teams and talk about how amazing he is doing. Giggs was a United Midfielder by the time he was 38 who managed to play there because he understood the league and its tempo to a te after educationally being involved in it for nearly 20 years - would he have done so good in Serie A or Spain for a team that's not United and a country like England? Ultimately it's easy to say yes - but we ultimately dont know.


Just wished Messi shut me up (like some others) and answered my question before he one day ends up retiring. Yet I knew he would always end up staying at Barcelona and La Liga and he wouldnt move to another League if it's not a club in Argentina.

Hears fingers crossing that it somehow changes.
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The thing is, the two clubs that can pay him what he's earning are already more dominating than Barcelona is at their respective leagues, and CL-wise they are far more competitive, so while few people may think its a better challenge for him to join Guardiola's City or PSG and prove himself there, most people will see the value in him staying on the current struggling Barcelona and winning trophies with the club he loves.
 
VanKenny said:
Well, he's the GOAT, he can get that money or even more at clubs such as City and PSG that btw are currently competing for the CL.
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Bolded part is a debate for another thread.

City nor PSG pay any of their players even half of EUR1m per week.
 
VanKenny said:
They are panicking realizing that Messi is currently the favorite for the Balon D Or.


If Barcelona do pull the double its going to be close to a miracle.
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Real are more likely to do the better double.
 
First in..

Goals scored
Minutes per goal
Chances created
Shots per game
Successful dribbles per game
Key passes per game

Also..

1 assist behind top
Outperforming his xG by 6


Still nobody on his level. Neymar is the only one close to him on his day.
 
Bebestation said:
Well Arsenal, Spurs and Man Utd cant win things because of Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea being good and great for a season or two with world class managers and rotate.

Even Leicester have snuck and changed up the league.

So no one is really comparing Arsenal, Spurs and United to the two Madrid and Barcelona- its comparing them and showing the difference in quality of players found in teams like sevilla or real betis vs Spurs or a United or an Arsenal.

La Liga at it's best had two amazing spanish teams and even then one would end up dominating over another over a period- like Pep's Barcelona's period vs Real Madrids time with Zidane.

When you compare it to the PL it's most similar to when SAF was just fighting for a PL with Wenger, good quality football but no where near as hard or competitive environment as the PL is now.

There is City, Chelsea, Liverpool, United, Leicester, Tottenham, Arsenal, that are either fighting for a title or competing for the top 4 purely dependent on what manager is making their decisions. When you look at Everton having a manager like Ancelotti and a player like James Rodriguez - that's a player and manager of Real Madrid 4 years ago hanging around the 8th of the PL. Then you have a manager like Biesla managing a team who is our 9th or 10th in the league. The PL has a possession based team l, a Counter attacking team, a gegenpressing team, a park the bus team and so many more tactics - it's the oozing with diversity.


I mean Messi has got no reason to prove anything to me cos I mean nothing towards him - yet I just wish he wouldn't be suddenly turning loyal to Koeman's average Barcelona like I knew was always going to happen instead of him trying to atleast dominate a season or 2 with another top team in a different league.

Just would have shut up some doubters for good but it just never came along. So it just sucks a bit.

Anyway people can still watch him in La Liga and watch him with the same play style for the next 3 years against the same teams and talk about how amazing he is doing. Giggs was a United Midfielder by the time he was 38 who managed to play there because he understood the league and its tempo to a te after educationally being involved in it for nearly 20 years - would he have done so good in Serie A or Spain for a team that's not United and a country like England? Ultimately it's easy to say yes - but we ultimately dont know.


Just wished Messi shut me up (like some others) and answered my question before he one day ends up retiring. Yet I knew he would always end up staying at Barcelona and La Liga and he wouldnt move to another League if it's not a club in Argentina.

Hears fingers crossing that it somehow changes.
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No I agree that the PL is more competitive atm, it's just that Man Utd have been a shambles for years since Fergie retired despite spending a fortune, Arsenal won a few Fa cups in Wengers last years and Spurs have won nothing. For me there is no merit on those 3 clubs joining the Super league other than money and brand.

As with regards to Messi. I think yes for curiosity it woud have been nice to see him in his prime in the PL, but it was never going to happen. He landed at his dream club at 14. He won a treble with them in 2009 and they became a super team and he won 4 ballon d'ors in a row. Which team was he supposed to transfer to that wasn't a step down from Barcelona? He's not going to transfer just for shit and giggles to shut up Ronaldo fans. And was he supposed to transfer to the PL when Ronaldo was at Real and to which team? If there ever was a right time it should have been after he won his last Ballon'D'or or before this season, but even then I would say there was hardly any right PL team to transfer to apart from City which is hardly romantic for a Goat.
 
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Heardy said:
Simply because the Prem is far more of a competitive league. The general overall quality in the Prem is far better than La Liga.
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Evidence? Or what you wrote is just words. Biased words at that.

Look at the record of Spanish teams in the CL and EL over the past 10-15 years and compare it with the PL
 
NasirTimothy said:
Evidence? Or what you wrote is just words. Biased words at that.

Look at the record of Spanish teams in the CL and EL over the past 10-15 years and compare it with the PL
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Who Pissed in your cornflakes? That point means feck all regarding my point too. All that shows is the top Spanish teams have outperformed English teams, it doesn’t talk about the competitiveness of each domestic league in isolation.
 
Heardy said:
Simply because the Prem is far more of a competitive league. The general overall quality in the Prem is far better than La Liga.
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Well, since Messi scores even more against the better La Liga sides...
I also strongly disagree with you post
 
Messi having a better GP90 ratio against top 6 sides than any other English striker is stunning.

And all those who spoke against this just wither away, in silence, without admitting any fault.. constantly relying on the "La Liga is more shite than EPL so it doesn't count" argument.

The dude is just straight up a phenom.

Now those same people are going to cry if Barca propose a 3 year extension to Messi, "How dare Messi bully Barca into giving him a 3 year contract!!! If he loved his club he would be playing FOR FREE!!!"

Straight up comedy
 
VanKenny said:
He's having a Balon D'or worthy season. If Barcelona manage the impossible and win the league after the horrible 2020 start of the season, then i think its a given.
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Only one I can see getting it over him is Neymar if he wins the CL + League double or if someone has a phenomenal Euros.
 
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