Lionel Messi
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Ronaldo: "Shame you didn't get a game either."
Great picture.
Can actually see Ron caring about Messi not performing anywhere near his best
"Who else is going to drive my desire to want to be the best"
Exactly. There isn't a magic switch.
Relative to his previous years this has been a poor season.
However thisguy will probably end the season with 40+ goals for Barca this season and it will be considered a poor season. So many players would dream for a season like that
However thisguy will probably end the season with 40+ goals for Barca this season and it will be considered a poor season. So many players would dream for a season like that
I think that's true for Messi. I've seen Zidane and Ronaldo Mk I coast through seasons and suddenly turn up at World Cups. Iniesta's often better in a tournament or a final than he has been for weeks or months before. Messi's success though has been on the back of playing regularly, maybe too regularly in the end.
Messi looks like he's carrying 1/2-1 stone more than recent seasons. Either that or his mobility is impaired somehow.
One of the Spanish TV commentators talking the other day about Messi's problem with Tata's tactics is that he loses that "game on" mindset if he doesn't get the ball often enough.
Apparently Pep gave orders years ago that Messi needed the ball a lot, even in relatively useless situations. I remember Xavi saying if he had given two passes to other players he always made sure the third went to Messi. That was also why (one way or another) Messi had to play in the middle. The commentator said Pep thought Messi needed regular contact with the ball to keep him focused.
If Tata has had to move him out to the wings, or away from the action because his fitness isn't right then it might be that the two issues are feeding one another now. I've no idea how true it is, but I'm curious to hear what other regular watchers think of the theory.
Apparently Pep gave orders years ago that Messi needed the ball a lot, even in relatively useless situations. I remember Xavi saying if he had given two passes to other players he always made sure the third went to Messi. That was also why (one way or another) Messi had to play in the middle. The commentator said Pep thought Messi needed regular contact with the ball to keep him focused.
If Tata has had to move him out to the wings, or away from the action because his fitness isn't right then it might be that the two issues are feeding one another now. I've no idea how true it is, but I'm curious to hear what other regular watchers think of the theory.
We are here referring to purely physical condition. Something 100% objective and measurable on the treadmill and weight area of the gym. Mental condition? That is extremely subjective. In any case the premise here, is that Messi's mental condition is something like this: "I really have to perform at this coming World Cup, I must not arrive there like a wreck as I did the previous time" Technical condition? Well, will Messi forget how to dribble, control or pass if he takes games easy now? I somehow don't think so. Technique is something that a footballer never loses. It is stamina, acceleration, strength and speed (all purely physical attributes) that go up and down in the career of a footballer, and eventually, by their early to mid 30s, they go down enough, for any footballer, no matter how talented to be a complete and total donkey.
What the premise here is, is that Messi will want to peak (in purely physical terms) at exactly the time of the World Cup, and especially by the time of the knock-outs.
Not sure whether that theory is true or not, but I remember reading the same interview with Xavi that you did. Even if it's not true, the stark contrast between Pep's view of Messi and Martino's view is a big, but probably not only, reason why Messi isn't at his best this season. To go from being the most important player in the system who always played centrally to "We weren't that interested in Messi being participative, we wanted him to find 1 v 1s on the right" must be hard to adapt to.
I don't think Martino has a clue how to get the best out of Messi. It doesn't excuse his performances this season but it's not just his fault.
Too much emphasis on "tactics" and the like. I don't know of any football tactic that literally compels a player to be severely lethargic and stand around instead of running and battling on the pitch. Let's restrict ourselves to what is clearly observable. There is this player, Messi, who does not run in football games. In my mind, there can be two potential answers to this puzzle here:
a) He cannot run.
b) He does not want to run.
My point here, is that the problem is clearly with Messi himself. He has either turned into a donkey, aged 26, or he sees the coming World Cup as a once in a lifetime shot at immortality, and the best chance he will ever get at emulating Maradona.
Martino is probably a poor manager, but for me there is zero link between Martino and Messi's abject recent performances. Even if Messi was placed by Martino at left back, his performances (especially 2nd leg against Altetico) would have been 100% inexcusable and shocking. A formation can be bad, or average, or good or anywhere in between. A player standing on the pitch in a CL knockout game is something wholly separate.
Messi has stood around for years, it's been a few seasons since he actually took part in the pressing.
People are only criticising him for his work rate now he's not playing as well and now that Barcelona are losing, but his lack of running never caused him problems before so it wouldn't really make much sense to say that's why he's not performing well now.
People are only criticising him for his work rate now he's not playing as well and now that Barcelona are losing, but his lack of running never caused him problems before so it wouldn't really make much sense to say that's why he's not performing well now.
Not nearly to this extent though. Not even remotely close. Barcelona have lost many times before this season, but Messi was never singled out as the worse player on the pitch before.
In my opinion, Messi has been affected by the upcoming World Cup, and probably Neymar being more highly paid than he is. Messi's wages will have to be upped again if he will ever be arsed for us again.
It's either that, or he is another "Kaka"
Maybe people just didn't pay attention before, he's spent games walking around plenty of times but because the tactics were spot on he actually gets the ball a lot anyway so people don't criticise him.
What you said might be factors too. Like I said, it's far too simplistic to single out one single thing as the reason why Messi isn't performing well. It's a combination of so many things, but you're being incredibly stubborn if you don't think the current set up isn't one of them.
Anyway, here's Ronaldo after the match commiserating with Messi.
Ronaldo: "Shame you didn't get a game either."
Must be said, that picture surprises me. Always thought that they can't stand each other, I mean the way they shake hands usually before and after a game has less warmth than in an igloo in the Arctic. Maybe they do. But that picture is great to see
Messi may be an idiot (I've no idea) but he'll have enough clever people surrounding him to let him know that playing this poorly and in this condition is a terrible way to prepare for the World Cup and will not help him emulate Maradona in any way. I'm sure it's a combination of mental and physical issues and the World Cup is a factor in both, but the suggestion he's somehow consciously playing within himself to this degree as a way of preparing is mental.
Slightly off-topic but I have to say I find it amusing how there's now some resentment towards Messi from the Barcelona fans because he's having a slump in form for the first time in over 5 years. Sometimes players lose focus on their football because they have other things going on in their life that distracts them and their physical condition isn't quite 100% - it's entirely understandable. No-one can be at 100% all the time and even if the reason they're not at 100% is entirely their fault because of a lack of effort, it's really not something worthy of getting pissed off about. It happens.
If the reason for his lack of form was because he was simply tired of the lifestyle he was living, the demands he was putting himself under and the constant scrutiny he was forced to live with, would you hold that against him? I don't see why you should. I'm sure everyone at one point or another has become disillusioned with life and in many cases that has taken place in their mid-20s. Obviously we have no idea what the problem is but I'm just making the point that even if his drop in performances is self-inflicted, it shouldn't really warrant this kind of resentment or anger.
I always find that funny with football fans in general. Unless you lot hold yourselves to an exceptionally high standard and never have a low point in your life where you don't quite meet the expectations of your family, friends, co-workers etc. then all the anger and vitriol aimed at footballers is very strange. People try and justify it by saying "...but he gets paid x thousand so we're entitled to criticise him as much as we'd like" but that's not really true. Direct that anger at the money men who made it this way, the footballers profiting from that had very little involvement in taking it down this route.
Messi is not playing badly to save himself for the World Cup, Messi is playing badly because he is unhappy with Barcelona's tactics and his role in Tata's set up. Considering how many United players have obviously had the same issue with Moyes, its quite strange that people genuinely can't see that the problem with Messi comes from the way he is being managed.
Last night when Messi got on the ball he looked very dangerous, the problem was Messi was barely involved. The way Martino set up Barcelona meant their players were too far apart to play off one another. The triangles, give and goes and quick interplay that we have got used to seeing from Barcelona isn't possible when your players are positioned too far from each other. That means that Barcelona are having to go wide or long more than in the past, and so a lot of the game goes around or over Messi rather than through him. Messi isn't a Hernandez type player who will get on the end of crosses, he needs ball to feet. Messi looks like he struggling to cope with Martino's way of playing and is frustrated he's so often ahead of the play or competing for high or diagonal balls.
Messi is not deliberately playing badly. Messi is just stuck with a manager who seems totally incapable of getting the best out of him. Something that should be familiar to us all. Remember how great Mata looked when we were trying to turn him into the new David Beckham..?
Last night when Messi got on the ball he looked very dangerous, the problem was Messi was barely involved. The way Martino set up Barcelona meant their players were too far apart to play off one another. The triangles, give and goes and quick interplay that we have got used to seeing from Barcelona isn't possible when your players are positioned too far from each other. That means that Barcelona are having to go wide or long more than in the past, and so a lot of the game goes around or over Messi rather than through him. Messi isn't a Hernandez type player who will get on the end of crosses, he needs ball to feet. Messi looks like he struggling to cope with Martino's way of playing and is frustrated he's so often ahead of the play or competing for high or diagonal balls.
Messi is not deliberately playing badly. Messi is just stuck with a manager who seems totally incapable of getting the best out of him. Something that should be familiar to us all. Remember how great Mata looked when we were trying to turn him into the new David Beckham..?
But the three are completely inter-related. Without physical condition, your technique suffers because you're shagged or a half-yard too late, and you then lose confidence and take the wrong decision and everything goes to pot. I can understand the rationale of easing off for a week or so after a gruelling season to keep the mental freshness, but floating around for the final quarter of the season when already low in fitness (and coming off an injury) is a crap method of peaking.
Agree entirely. There may be too much conflict going on around him for him to retain his focus. Tata's management and Xavi's slowdown may have created problems on field. But off field he's still got a tax fraud case hanging over him (or at least over his father), the Barca board are in trouble with the tax office (over Neymar) and FIFA (over underage players). Sure, we can talk about "leaving it off the field," but players are human too.
Meanwhile he's engaged in new contract negotiations and whereas in the past they've always been quiet, dignified affairs, this time a lot of it's being leaked. Added to that, the wall of silence that has always protected him at Barcelona has been broken with lots more stories being leaked to the press.
Very tough on him, because he's never had to handle that kind of scrutiny before.
When the team arrived back at Barcelona, he was singled out for complaints by the fans - cries that he's just another mercenary and he's not even working for his money now. Brutal, after all the joy he's given them, and probably totally unexpected for a player who's always been "the pride of La Masia" etc.
Don't have much to add but I agree with you and Brwned. Barcelona fans need to remember just how important Messi's performances have been, and how many trophies they've won with him being the crucial player, before they start turning on him.
They love their smear campaigns there though, even Guardiola and Cruyff aren't revered by everyone so I guess no one is immune.
They love their smear campaigns there though, even Guardiola and Cruyff aren't revered by everyone so I guess no one is immune.
Hasn't he just had a kid? Maybe it's a little bastard and he can't get any sleep.
I'm sure he can afford as many babysitters/nurses/whatever to take care of the kid and not have to do so himself.
I know it's odd but maybe he wants to look after him himself? I wasn't being entirely serious anyway.
anyone got a gif of him putting alonso (?) on the floor?
There is, ask Zidane in 2006 or Luis Ronaldo in 2002
Arshavin when he played for Russia instead of Arsenal.
2 players over the past 10 years? I'm convinced now
Messi deserves much better than these whining Barcelona lot. Think about being your best player since you turned up playing as a kid for them, to go through the first rough patch of his career and some of the ingrates clamouring for 'cashing in'. What the feck? All the while arguing that 'La Masia' is the way to go and 'not to throw money around to fix the problem'. Jeebus.
Ronaldo is a good example, although was moving up (rather than down) the gears towards the end of the 2001/02 season. Zidane didn't get going until the knockout stages after doing next to nothing in the groups.
Arshavin's best tournament was 2008 after a cracking campaign with Zenit.
Arshavin's best tournament was 2008 after a cracking campaign with Zenit.
Just because two are mentioned doesn't mean there are only these two, they're just the highest profile and the first ones I could think of. You could add several players of the italian squad in 06.
reading most of @malappaper 's comments, you're passing off what's completely your opinion as fact.
messi is the type of player that just wants to play as much as possible, maybe in that regards he is a little petulant or immature, whatever, but to say he doesn't want to play, i feel that's idiotic. Messi's always been the type that wanted to play all the qualifiers, all the minnow teams, he always had problems even being benched when the league was won in 2011, he wanted to play even when there was nothing to play for and the cl final was upcoming.
i also found it pretty laughable when you said the 2011/12 season was the worst of the previous 3, it was by far superior to this season and especially the last. The end of the season was incredibly dissapointing, but the team was strong, tactically dynamic, well organized, and composed to defend as CL champions if not for some shoddy finishing against chelsea.
singling messi out for blame, when he single handedly lead a team not deserving of being in the top 3 last season, all the way to the league title?
He's pretty much destroyed his body through injury and fatigue rescuing barcelona over and over. now he can't and it's all his fault.
these 'fans' can piss off.
messi is the type of player that just wants to play as much as possible, maybe in that regards he is a little petulant or immature, whatever, but to say he doesn't want to play, i feel that's idiotic. Messi's always been the type that wanted to play all the qualifiers, all the minnow teams, he always had problems even being benched when the league was won in 2011, he wanted to play even when there was nothing to play for and the cl final was upcoming.
i also found it pretty laughable when you said the 2011/12 season was the worst of the previous 3, it was by far superior to this season and especially the last. The end of the season was incredibly dissapointing, but the team was strong, tactically dynamic, well organized, and composed to defend as CL champions if not for some shoddy finishing against chelsea.
singling messi out for blame, when he single handedly lead a team not deserving of being in the top 3 last season, all the way to the league title?
He's pretty much destroyed his body through injury and fatigue rescuing barcelona over and over. now he can't and it's all his fault.
these 'fans' can piss off.
I think Lionel Messi will be headed to the Premier League in the near future.
It will be interesting to see how competitive United are in signing him when the time comes.
Obviously Man United would have to have a different manager for that to even be a possibility.
It will be interesting to see how competitive United are in signing him when the time comes.
Obviously Man United would have to have a different manager for that to even be a possibility.
Much of this "decline" in messi is very very exaggerated imo. his goalscoring hs definitely not stopped that's for sure and he can still dribble past people like normal too. Everytime in the classicos that he got the ball I was nervous so he still has the fear factor too
. I would say that maybe he is not 100% focused on football because of all the drama surrounding him like the taxes, new contract, neymar earning more than him and also the media as a whole being more harsh on him than before as he always seemed to me like a player that was above criticism because they wanted to paint him as the good guy. Jojojo said something about him not touching the ball much anymore and that he loses focus because of it and that is an interesting point also. But overall I really see no big problem with him and no reason why he wont win the ballon dor again or be top scorer in all competition next year. I certainly don't think this will be the beginning of him declining that's for sure and if anything I think it will drive him on to have a massive season next year. It definitely seems to be the medias agenda to drag messi down atm, but the media will be very quick to build him up again.Alright, where to start with you.
The 11/12 team lost the league easily. Check your facts. This year's team, still has some little hope of retaining it. Just a draw at Granada and we would still be favourites, even with Messi being a passenger for the past few weeks, and being injured for quite a bit of the season. Neymar has also been injured for parts of the season. The Chelsea team they lost to was the worse ever team to knock us out of the CL for as long as I can remember. They could not hold a candle to this year's Atleti, or the Inter of 2010, let alone the Bayern of last year or the United of 2008. How can you discount all those facts just to suit your theory of persistent Barcelona decline. This year we have been fecked by Messi being totally useless in many big games, especially against Altetico, and injuries to players we cannot hope to cover for, namely VV and Pique.
Messi used to be the way you describe him. But he is currently going through his worst ever season. Past glories cannot be an alibi for anyone, including Messi. When he plays fantastically well, we shower him with praise, money, awards and everything else. When he plays badly we should be silent? I do not accept such inanities. And its not only Messi that is being criticized, it is the entire team. Last night sport.es trashed each and every single Barcelona player bar Jordi Alba. That may have been a bit harsh on Iniesta and Neymar who at least tried a bit, but all in all, they entire team, and first of all Messi deserve extremely harsh criticism for a failed season. It's not right to praise them to the heavens when they win, and avoid criticizing when they fail.
If it is in fact true that Messi has "destroyed his body through injury and fatigue" then that is part of the game, and Barcelona should cash out. I know it sounds cruel, but the facts are the facts, and this how football under capitalism works. I am not a fan of this world, but it is what it is. If he is just having a dip in form, then he should bounce back next season and all will be well. If he is saving himself for the World Cup, well, I am disappointed about that as Barca fan, but there is nothing I can do about it, and it is also partly understandable. In fact, I hope that this is the case, and the Messi will scorch the World Cup in Brazil, maybe even win the whole thing so that the GOAT discussion is settled once and for all.
Criticizing Messi does not mean you don't like him. Hell, I love him as a player and I know full well how many times he gave us victory, but he has also received a lot from the club as well, and as a Barcelona fan, I want what is best for FC Barcelona, not what you or fishfinger15 like to hear...
Much of this "decline" in messi is very very exaggerated imo. his goalscoring hs definitely not stopped that's for sure and he can still dribble past people like normal too. Everytime in the classicos that he got the ball I was nervous so he still has the fear factor too
I agree with you, that his "decline" has been exaggerated somewhat by the media wanting to create sensational stories to fill their pages with. But the manner of his capitulation in the past few games or so, has really shocked the football world, who are used to at least one or two moments of Messi magic even in his bad games. His Atletico performance I think, will live in infamy as Messi's worst ever performance. For most of that game, it was as if he was not even on the pitch. I think (and hope) that next season will mark a return to his world-beating best with great performances and hat-tricks left, right and centre, but for the moment, I think that even Messi (and Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Cesc) deserves some harsh criticism. It's the nature of the world.
Why do you think that exactly?
Just a hunch. We'll see how negotiations between the 2 sides go in the coming weeks. If they are not resolved before the world cup, we may be seeing the end of Messi at Barca.
They'd be ludicrous to sell him but a part of me would love it if he left. They don't appreciate him and they'd be destined to finish third year upon year without him. They're absolutely shite without him.
Don't you love how the fanbois come up with all kinds of excuses for him?
Rivaldo and Ronaldhino played far more brilliantly than Ronaldo in that tournament. Just that the latter gets the hoopla because of his fall from world's best by injury and subsequent recovery. Rivaldo guided that side to the cup.
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